We'll see if he is just saying it or whether he gets the ball out of his hands more. The last two games they've been playing with higher pace: 98.2 vs PDX and 99.5 vs UT.
Analysis of Celtics Games, '21-'22 Season
- Thread starter Imbricus
- Start date
Utah game I agree. The Blazers didn’t provide any resistance so I wouldn’t put much stock into that game. Is there a place to find Home/Away pace numbers? My eyes tell me we seem to get bogged down more offensively at home.
Who can forget the ‘98 Clips legendary starting 5 of Darrick Martin, Rodney Rogers, Lamond Murray, Isaac Austin, and Eric Piatkowski?
https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199803130LAC.html
GSW not in there is surprising.
if you extended that list to the top 25 most efficient- pts/100, its probably littered with recent Warrior teams
I've been pointing it out all year even though I don't think it means anything at all. It's just fun to follow and see how people react to it.
C's are now 6-7 with Brown, and 7-6 without Brown. The team is obviously better with him but even fully healthy, they are a player (preferably a shooter) short. They are also never fully healthy, so that compounds the problem.
I'm convinced that's why they are so disappoint. 1. Health. 2. Lack Of Depth. Not a good combo.
On a more positive note: I'm becoming a big fan of JRich. The team does have some upside as built but it requires a lot of things to go right. It'd be easier to add a player at the deadline.
C's are now 6-7 with Brown, and 7-6 without Brown. The team is obviously better with him but even fully healthy, they are a player (preferably a shooter) short. They are also never fully healthy, so that compounds the problem.
I'm convinced that's why they are so disappoint. 1. Health. 2. Lack Of Depth. Not a good combo.
On a more positive note: I'm becoming a big fan of JRich. The team does have some upside as built but it requires a lot of things to go right. It'd be easier to add a player at the deadline.
JRich is doing his job and making that extension decision look pretty smart. Shooting 48% last 10 games and only has 5 TOs during that span.
Maybe save that extra # 2 until he shows that he can do what he did this past game while having actual defenders on him. The C's kind of just left him alone a lot and he took advantage bigly. You can't blame them though. Until last night, he looked like any other rookie or young player who is trying to carve out minutes.
Edit: His form looks easy to mess up if a defender can close out effectively but I am not a shooting expert.
I'm getting a little tired of the "if only they were healthy" excuse. They lost to a team without Kawhi Leonard and Paul George. They got beat by Marcus Morris and some guy most of us have never heard of. This is just not a particularly good team. Nearly every team in the league has has good players out.
He has played consistently well on the offensive and defensive end for awhile now.
View: https://twitter.com/celtics/status/1469096161243922433
I'd like to think Jaylen would be available for the Milwaukee game next week, but who knows?
I'd like to think Jaylen would be available for the Milwaukee game next week, but who knows?
This team is starting to remind me of the pre-Garnett teams with PP and Toine. Just not enough talent on the roster. I don't think that Peak Red could get this team to the conference finals.
Cs are just very middle-of-the-pack across the board, but especially struggle with raw shooting.
19th in 2pt%
22nd in 3pt%
But somehow they manage to be 12th in points because they lead the league in free throw percentage.
18th in turnovers and 18th assists isn't good either. Neither is 15th in points allowed. And I don't know how meaningful a state total rebounds is, but they're 15th in that too. Mediocre as an identity.
When you don't handle the ball well and you don't shoot well and you don't defend well, you lose games.
19th in 2pt%
22nd in 3pt%
But somehow they manage to be 12th in points because they lead the league in free throw percentage.
18th in turnovers and 18th assists isn't good either. Neither is 15th in points allowed. And I don't know how meaningful a state total rebounds is, but they're 15th in that too. Mediocre as an identity.
When you don't handle the ball well and you don't shoot well and you don't defend well, you lose games.
The weird thing is, they have decent depth, and the role players (including Smart in that group) have been mostly fine. The issue is that Brown doesn't play and Tatum is worse than Tatum even from 2 years ago.
At a certain point, your stars have to be stars actually, and not just in theory, otherwise you're not very good.
I haven't been able to bring myself to watch the entirety of the last two games but the Cs defense has been horrible the last two games. And not just B. Boston - it looked like from what I saw in the last two games that they were at least a step slow.
For @benhogan, here's an article clamoring for the end of the 2BIGZ lineup. But more importantly from that article:
Horford had played the entire fourth quarter after Williams III struggled immensely, Horford posting team-best +11 minutes and starting again next to his fellow big man. Udoka hoped to rely on Horford less during this west coast road trip. Instead, he’s being utilized as often as ever, since Williams III regressed back to fouling, getting boxed out on offense, and playing sloppy on offense, with poor positional defense. Williams III was a combined -37 in the two LA games.
* * * *
Boston has started games poorly at numerous points this season, and despite the opening night starting unit with Jaylen Brown building a +21.5 net rating, the Dennis Schröder version of double big now has a -13.6 net rating.
* * * *
Horford and Williams, as a two-man duo, have had their lineups outscored by 41.5 points per 100 possessions during the west coast trip (90.8 OR, 132.3 DR). Horford and Grant Williams, by comparison, posted a +30. There’s little advantage to starting double big, especially as Horford continues to struggle from three. Few teams start two centers and it limits the minutes other wings can play, while also complicating the center rotation.
TL wasn't good in the 1st half against LAC but the weirdest play I noticed was during a run-out, I think DS was pushing the ball up the floor and TL was on the wing. Normally TL would spring to the basket so he could get a dunk but this time, he just jogged and when he got the ball, he fumbled it and was called for a travel. Not sure why he wasn't running but typically when that happens it's because the player doesn't think he's going to get the ball.
From Zach Lowe's latest column:
7. Two Boston backup forwards heading different directions
For the Celtics to hit their ceiling -- and that has very much not happened -- one backup would have to step into somewhat of a void at power forward: someone who could break up the Al Horford/Robert Williams III duo if it proved clunky, and spare Jayson Tatum and Jaylen Brown some bruising.
Grant Williams has become that player. He's shooting 42.4% from deep, with an even split between short corner 3s and longer bombs. He has hit 36% on above-the-break 3s, and there's a huge and underrated difference between corner-3 specialists and stretch bigs who shoot from everywhere. The everywhere types do more stuff from more places as screen-setters, cutters, and handoff hubs.
Williams looks more comfortable working off the bounce when defenders run him off the arc. He sees the floor well, and he's converting inside the paint: a ridiculous 83% at the basket, and 40% on floaters.
Williams is a brick wall with nimble feet on defense. He can guard every position. If this shooting is anything resembling real, Williams is a heavy-minutes rotation player and maybe even a fifth starter on the right team.
On the other hand: After every Romeo Langford stint, I find myself asking, What would you say ... you do here? He barely shoots, though his 15-of-36 mark on 3s is encouraging after Langford went 10-of-45 combined over his first two seasons. He has 37 career assists, and even if he were a good playmaker -- maybe he is! -- he's not involved enough to show it.
He's solid defensively, though not on Williams' level. He's battling Aaron Nesmith and Payton Pritchard on the fringes of Boston's rotation. Those two haven't lit the world on fire, but at least they do things. You notice them. (Also enjoying a bounce back: Josh Richardson.)
Langford is 22, so there's time. Still: This is disappointing return on a lottery pick. The five players taken right after Langford haven't amounted to much yet, but the sixth -- Matisse Thybulle -- haunts Boston some. The Celtics traded the rights to Thybulle for Carsen Edwards and Ty Jerome. (They did pick Grant Williams two spots below Thybulle, and had so many first-round picks that it was going to be hard to roster all of them.)
7. Two Boston backup forwards heading different directions
For the Celtics to hit their ceiling -- and that has very much not happened -- one backup would have to step into somewhat of a void at power forward: someone who could break up the Al Horford/Robert Williams III duo if it proved clunky, and spare Jayson Tatum and Jaylen Brown some bruising.
Grant Williams has become that player. He's shooting 42.4% from deep, with an even split between short corner 3s and longer bombs. He has hit 36% on above-the-break 3s, and there's a huge and underrated difference between corner-3 specialists and stretch bigs who shoot from everywhere. The everywhere types do more stuff from more places as screen-setters, cutters, and handoff hubs.
Williams looks more comfortable working off the bounce when defenders run him off the arc. He sees the floor well, and he's converting inside the paint: a ridiculous 83% at the basket, and 40% on floaters.
Williams is a brick wall with nimble feet on defense. He can guard every position. If this shooting is anything resembling real, Williams is a heavy-minutes rotation player and maybe even a fifth starter on the right team.
On the other hand: After every Romeo Langford stint, I find myself asking, What would you say ... you do here? He barely shoots, though his 15-of-36 mark on 3s is encouraging after Langford went 10-of-45 combined over his first two seasons. He has 37 career assists, and even if he were a good playmaker -- maybe he is! -- he's not involved enough to show it.
He's solid defensively, though not on Williams' level. He's battling Aaron Nesmith and Payton Pritchard on the fringes of Boston's rotation. Those two haven't lit the world on fire, but at least they do things. You notice them. (Also enjoying a bounce back: Josh Richardson.)
Langford is 22, so there's time. Still: This is disappointing return on a lottery pick. The five players taken right after Langford haven't amounted to much yet, but the sixth -- Matisse Thybulle -- haunts Boston some. The Celtics traded the rights to Thybulle for Carsen Edwards and Ty Jerome. (They did pick Grant Williams two spots below Thybulle, and had so many first-round picks that it was going to be hard to roster all of them.)
Wow. that's a pretty harsh take on Romeo. Saying AN and PP at least do something, ouch. Pretty glowing take on Grant, though.
I'd love to see Romeo play, say, 28 minutes in a game once or twice, just to see if he'd have a more noticeable impact with a bigger role. And, yes, I understand playing time must be earned, but I can't help thinking there's more to Romeo's game than we're seeing.
He's playing close to 20 minutes a night. It's not playing time. He's just invisible and he always has been. Maybe it's because they don't involve him in plays, I dunno. Not only does he not POINTZ, he doesn't ASSISTZ, REBOUNDZ, STEALZ or BLOCKZ. He does nothing that shows up in a box score. In his last 3 games, over 36 minutes, he's taken 1 3 point shot. What good is that supposed improved shooting if he's not actually shooting?
edit: He's also played 28 minutes once this year and 27 another time.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/langfro01/gamelog/2022
One game, he scored 12 and did little else, the other he scored 5 and had 6 rebounds.
Tragically, this feels pretty true re: Romeo. I've been holding out hope for him to show something serious and stable since he was drafted, but it doesn't seem like it's happening. I think he's still very talented, but to me he's missing aggression. Putting him in the 4th/5th banana spot on the floor has made him really passive.
I went to the Clippers game the other night and that kind of passivity felt like the biggest weakness for the team. The only person who wants to drive the bus is Marcus, and he's one of the worst players on the team to take that role. The rest of them, including Tatum, tend to procrastinate imposing their will on the other team - aka being forceful and aggressive - and sometimes, as with the other night, they don't do it until it's too late. I don't think it's a talent issue as much as it is a personality issue.
I don't want it to seem like I think they're not trying. I'm sure they're practicing hard and they're all in shape and putting in effort. That's not it. It just feels like there's an attitude missing or an identity. I know it's subjective, squishy, and I'm being an armchair psychologist, but I just can't help thinking that if they added Kyle Lowry or someone like that, they'd be miles better, and not just because he's a better player than what they have at PG. Marcus, despite all his strengths, cannot be the voice and leader of this team on the floor or in the locker room because he's simply not talented enough. You go down the list of every other good team in the league and their leaders are their best players by default. This might be better reserved for the Tatum thread, but some nights he comes off as more KAT than Giannis.
I went to the Clippers game the other night and that kind of passivity felt like the biggest weakness for the team. The only person who wants to drive the bus is Marcus, and he's one of the worst players on the team to take that role. The rest of them, including Tatum, tend to procrastinate imposing their will on the other team - aka being forceful and aggressive - and sometimes, as with the other night, they don't do it until it's too late. I don't think it's a talent issue as much as it is a personality issue.
I don't want it to seem like I think they're not trying. I'm sure they're practicing hard and they're all in shape and putting in effort. That's not it. It just feels like there's an attitude missing or an identity. I know it's subjective, squishy, and I'm being an armchair psychologist, but I just can't help thinking that if they added Kyle Lowry or someone like that, they'd be miles better, and not just because he's a better player than what they have at PG. Marcus, despite all his strengths, cannot be the voice and leader of this team on the floor or in the locker room because he's simply not talented enough. You go down the list of every other good team in the league and their leaders are their best players by default. This might be better reserved for the Tatum thread, but some nights he comes off as more KAT than Giannis.
I think Romeo in particular is terrified of doing anything out of fear that he'll get benched. Doing nothing may not get you benched, but bricking a few shots or turning the ball over, or whiffing a steal that leads to a basket probably will. Ime clearly isn't afraid to bury people. Look a PP, who played a ton last year and who may as well not be on the team this year. One thing you can't say about PP is that he's passive. And it got him benched. Nesmith comes back, plays out of control, gets benched for a few games. If Romeo is going to get minutes being invisible, why would he try to be anything else?
Thybulle haunting them is a bit overmuch as well. Nice guy to have around I suppose, but bfd. Plays good defense, can't shoot at all. Maybe will shoot again someday, but he's old too. Who's losing sleep over missing out on him.
Yeah, that was funny. It's not like Romeo's defense is a liability. It's generally pretty good. Thybulle presents the same issue that we're currently facing with Romeo - that defenses can completely disregard him.
This is a good post. The C's are definitely missing an "edginess" to their style of play. My basic meter/measures of "edginess" are on-ball defensive pressure in the halfcourt, denying passing lanes, going over screens, and setting solid screens on offense. If they are doing those things, then they have a chance of being a top 4 EC team.
Too often they open games where they pick up halfcourt defense under the 3pt line (my biggest beef w/Kemba). May as well raise the white flag and be comfortable being a .500 team if they can't pressure the ball for 48.
Last edited:
I've kind of resigned myself to the 2BIGZ. My biggest issue with it is keeping Horford and Rob as fresh as possible. I have no way to prove it but I see those two wearing out a little now.
Much like yourself, I spent a lot of last season defending Grants' potential, so it's nice to see him play better. Not sure if Ime has the guts to start Grant but he'd spread the offensive floor more than 2BIGZ, which would benefit JAYs/DS rim runs.
Did Zach Lowe really say that GW is better defensively than RL? Is he watching a different team than I am.
GW is decent defensively and has some chance a super high wide range of players. OTOH, from memory, there are almost always several sequences a game where guys go around him or over him without too much resistance. He makes some pretty spectacular plays (i.e., block of AD) but also can give up uncontested layups or wide-open shots).
To my eyes, while GW probably defends 4s better than RL, RL is a much better defensive player with respect to 1s to 3s (and having him guard Carmelo one on one wasn't really fair). I'll note that one of the articles I read said that opponents are shooting 38.5% against him.
I'll note that according to BRef's On/Off Rtgs (whatever they are good for), when RL is on the court the Cs are 3 points worse on offense and 1.5 points better on defense. When GW is on the court, the Cs are 2.5-ish points better on offense but 8.1 points worse on defense.
And I like GW.
In his limited minutes, Romeo has looked offensively passive but is clearly a better defender than Grant, especially on the perimeter.
RL shows little to no passion on the floor as opposed to Grant, who wants to mix it up/run his mouth. Maybe that is skewing Zach's view
This guy only has 6,000 followers on Twitter, but quite a few of them are legitimate nba writers. Jay King, KOC, Mason Ginsberg, Brian Robb, Mo Dakhil, etc.
View: https://twitter.com/Kungu_NBA/status/1469436951778533387?s=20
View: https://twitter.com/dangercart/status/1469446652209602573?s=20
View: https://twitter.com/Kungu_NBA/status/1469436951778533387?s=20
View: https://twitter.com/dangercart/status/1469446652209602573?s=20
Bingo. This post sums up exactly how I feel. It also seems like a pretty terrible way to develop any sort of young talent but whatever
I guess GW is more like a "dirt dog" than RL so he must be a better player.
I wonder how statistically-minded Ime is? I was shocked to see how much worse the Cs were on defense when GW plays.
Sounds like the Cs would be willing to add Simmons for Smart and anyone else not named JT or JB, which I would have to believe would be a coup if DOBOBS can pull it off.
I’m not against Simmons but man is he a strange way to address a team that just can’t shoot well enough to compete nightly
Not many teams fall into that “have a star and moving into a rebuild” situation. Portland could be one although you’d figure they would just want to hang onto Simmons vs. the Celtics mediocre pick bonanza. Indy may also qualify on the rebuilding part but they don’t have a “star” to deal.
I’m not super sure I follow this, but if this is code we give up salary and 5 draft picks for Ben Simmons to be added to this core — I’m fucking all in for that.
We aren’t in player development mode so that shouldn’t play any factor right now. Romeo does seem naturally passive offensively but that really doesn’t affect him much in his role on the team especially when playing with the first unit.
When this team plays intense D they can compete with anybody, Simmons addresses that. Add in his distribution skills along with the return of the Real Tatum & a healthy Jaylen the offense will be better than average
5 picks + matching salary for Simmons would be a great move but doubt that gets it done
5 picks + matching salary for Simmons would be a great move but doubt that gets it done
An interesting stat to consider.
We are 2nd to last in the league in Avg speed during the game, Avg speed on offense, and dead last on Avg speed on defense.
Of course, this stat doesn't necessarily correlate with how well the team is playing (for example suns are tried with us for last on Avg speed on offense)
We are also 4th from the last place in total Distance covered on offense.
https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/speed-distance/?sort=AVG_SPEED&dir=1&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular Season
We are 2nd to last in the league in Avg speed during the game, Avg speed on offense, and dead last on Avg speed on defense.
Of course, this stat doesn't necessarily correlate with how well the team is playing (for example suns are tried with us for last on Avg speed on offense)
We are also 4th from the last place in total Distance covered on offense.
https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/speed-distance/?sort=AVG_SPEED&dir=1&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular Season
This confirms exactly what our eyes are telling us, they are stagnant on offense. Still, too much ISO, standing around like potted plants waiting for the ballhandler to create. Very little off-ball cutting. Very little in transition.
MVP contending IT, Kyrie, healthy Kemba, even a spry Terry were fine with that, but expecting the JAYs to be creators for themselves and others has been rather painful to watch. Not the best use of their talents.
The three-point shooting lately has been wretched (well, except for that weird, anomalous Portland game when they couldn't miss). Right now it looks like they're 23rd in the league for three-point shooting percentage. Almost everyone on the team is having a big backslide on three-pointers (except for Grant) and it's killing them, because with the improved passing, they are getting some good looks.
Ime once against talks about inconsistent the Cs are with "the effort and the heart and the intensity." Specifically:
"Literally, three games ago we were playing [with a] totally different style with the effort and the heart and intensity. It’s been inconsistent for sure" and
“We let our offense affect our play overall. Obviously a 15-point quarter after a decent first. Once the shots didn’t fall, kind of, [the] roof caved in overall, and I think guys started letting it affect them on the defensive end. Gave up a ton of mistakes there.”
“Just the overall effort and pride to end the trip wasn’t a good feeling, obviously… Tonight obviously wasn’t ideal.”
TL echoed the last comment: "If you’ve gotta make it about your pride, make it about your pride. Anything you’ve gotta do to get fired up. "
Not sure what the fix is, short of getting new players in.
"Literally, three games ago we were playing [with a] totally different style with the effort and the heart and intensity. It’s been inconsistent for sure" and
“We let our offense affect our play overall. Obviously a 15-point quarter after a decent first. Once the shots didn’t fall, kind of, [the] roof caved in overall, and I think guys started letting it affect them on the defensive end. Gave up a ton of mistakes there.”
“Just the overall effort and pride to end the trip wasn’t a good feeling, obviously… Tonight obviously wasn’t ideal.”
TL echoed the last comment: "If you’ve gotta make it about your pride, make it about your pride. Anything you’ve gotta do to get fired up. "
Not sure what the fix is, short of getting new players in.
Their defense got lit up 5 straight games against teams that were missing Lilliard, Kawhi, Paul George, Booker, Ayton. The rest of December will be tough, fingers crossed this doesn't spiral.
Another potential issue/problem I see on the horizon: Jaylen Brown. He has this lingering hamstring issue, which dings his biggest superpower (athleticism). Plus IME will be asking him to be more of a distributor, which he isn't. Not sure the return of JB will be a big enough uptick.
Ime can talk about effort, intensity, et al, all he wants. It's a fair alternative to talking about the real cause, which is that the talent on the roster is what it is. Better players score more and play better defense, even when their effort isn't 100% all the time.
Stevens cleaned up the spill on aisle 4 that needed to be done last summer, but he just didn't have the paper towels to clean up aisles 5 thru 9. We'll see what happens over the coming 2 months.
EDIT: My aisle numbers do not refer to roster spots.
Stevens cleaned up the spill on aisle 4 that needed to be done last summer, but he just didn't have the paper towels to clean up aisles 5 thru 9. We'll see what happens over the coming 2 months.
EDIT: My aisle numbers do not refer to roster spots.
Last edited:
I dunno. I mean how many games difference does improving the 5-9 players really make? I mean having the correct 5-9 players could mean the difference in a playoff series but aren't really going to make a difference between 41 wins and 50 wins I would think.
The problem is that JT is playing like an All-Star but not a superstar and JB isn't playing. Even Embiid - certainly a top 5 player and maybe higher - is finding out that having one borderline All-Star and then a bunch of other players isn't going to make his team a contender.
Tatum's play and Brown's health issues have definitely been a huge factor in their start. However no matter how you look at the team's record and production, the talent gap between them and good teams is inescapable. Furthermore, it can be argued that Tatum's struggles are mostly a function of Brown being out and there being nobody else to reliably shoulder the load.
People may be right that Udoka isn't a good coach or that 23 year old Jayson Tatum isn't capable of leading a team to contention. On the other hand, it would be easier to make that determination if this team wasn't regularly surrounding its stars with a preponderance of below average secondary scorers. Every NBA team has some of these players because they are very useful but they also have the inverse - scorers who are challenged to defend but some teams get this mix better than others.
It will be fascinating to see what Stevens looks at heading into trade season - they can still be competitive (not championship level) with a few modest moves. Maybe they will wait to see how things look when Brown is back but at this point, changes are likely.
People may be right that Udoka isn't a good coach or that 23 year old Jayson Tatum isn't capable of leading a team to contention. On the other hand, it would be easier to make that determination if this team wasn't regularly surrounding its stars with a preponderance of below average secondary scorers. Every NBA team has some of these players because they are very useful but they also have the inverse - scorers who are challenged to defend but some teams get this mix better than others.
It will be fascinating to see what Stevens looks at heading into trade season - they can still be competitive (not championship level) with a few modest moves. Maybe they will wait to see how things look when Brown is back but at this point, changes are likely.