Woj: Love on the block
- Thread starter mauf
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You do realize that Whiteside playing more like his Miami days is a massive upgrade on Daniel Theis, right? Theis is a bench player forced to start because they have no other big man that has stepped up to take the role.
Chips are beginning to move in Cleveland. The Cavs clear up salary and send Clarkson to Utah for Exum’s expiring and a couple 2nd rounders. Love and/or Nance should be next to move along. Tristan’s expiring will surely good to a playoff team for a low 1st that they don’t want anyway. Good time to stock up on young Cavs guys for your end of season fantasy push. 
You have that backwards, Utah is clearing salary and paying the Cavs a couple of #2s for taking on an extra six million or so in salary. Exum signed a three year extension his RFA year, so his deal doesn’t expire for another year.Chips are beginning to move in Cleveland. The Cavs clear up salary and send Clarkson to Utah for Exum’s expiring and a couple 2nd rounders. Love and/or Nance should be next to move along. Tristan’s expiring will surely good to a playoff team for a low 1st that they don’t want anyway. Good time to stock up on young Cavs guys for your end of season fantasy push.
yep. as expected.
start moving the deck chairs and collect draft picks (Lottery tickets) in the process
Love will be moved, his high paid babysitting gig is up
Yeah I think Exum is of interest to the Cavs because he's still young and he still flashes. I think he's the kind of flyer they should be going for here, cost controlled for a couple of years not terribly expensive and they get a couple of 2nds and a trade exception. I love that trade for the Cavs.
Really, what playoff team needs a BIG at that price?Chips are beginning to move in Cleveland. The Cavs clear up salary and send Clarkson to Utah for Exum’s expiring and a couple 2nd rounders. Love and/or Nance should be next to move along. Tristan’s expiring will surely good to a playoff team for a low 1st that they don’t want anyway. Good time to stock up on young Cavs guys for your end of season fantasy push.
no one in their right mind is paying a 1st for Tristen Thompson and matching that salary....he has buyout written all over him
I disagree. This isn’t some 10-mpg player. Tristan will be the best expiring big on the market with, most importantly, a demand for his services to combat opposing bigs like Embiid, Davis, paint protector for Giannis, etc etc. We pretty much know that if TT is bought out he’ll end up w LeBron in LA. The Cavs know this.....as do the Celtics, Mavs, Heat, Raptors (Gasol injury), or anyone else who would benefit from TT for the playoffs. Most of these teams have enough expiring and/or draft picks for a deal to be more desirable for Cleveland than simply saving $4m........damn, they could get most of that in the form of cash considerations.
I'm not a fan of Tristen Thompson's talents, so I'm probably biased, but there are several 5s available on the cheap that I'd take before TT
Miami has Dion/JJ to match for a bloated contract, I guess if I squint real hard?
I totally agree with you that the Cavs should strip mine the vets on their roster for picks and bad contracts
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Adding LeBron’s declining/overrated BFF to a center rotation that already features AD, JaVale and D12 (who’s already giving interviews letting everyone know what it takes to be a champion) would be pretty entertaining. Bonus sh*tshow points if Boogie Cousins declares himself healthy.
If you already have bloated salary, he makes a lot of sense. For Miami in particular--they need someone to bang with Embiid (although they do play a good zone), and Bam and Meyers Leonard won't cut it imo. Ditto in Toronto if they don't believe in Gasol holding up. (Were I a Raps fan, I think Gasol+late first for TT is a deal I'd sign up for).
Where is Tristan declining? He’s 28 and playing as well as he ever has. Don’t look blindly as his shooting numbers as those would obviously return to what they were when playing off LeBron again.
TT is a much better option than JaVale and would likely take most of his minutes when they go big.
I don't get the Tristan hate at all. He's improved from his championship Cavs days. I think he'd be a force in a winning environment. If the Celtics had matching salary, I'd be all over him.
What would happen to this board if Love/TT were acquired for Hayward, draft picks, and big filler?
We’d immediately go from fun cute regular season team to a legit threat to the Buck to represent the EC as this deal checks off all the boxes. Sign me up.
I just don't like the last few years of the Love deal, but otherwise I'd be down if the draft picks weren't MEM. I agree that that deal raises their championship odds.
Of course not but we are in win-now mode, or should be, and wouldn’t be sacrificing any of our key young pieces. It’s a win-win from my seat assuming the pick(s) would not include any of the highly valuable ones.
Thompson does have the relationship with LeBron but it is hard to find him in LA with McGee and Howard already aboard, and with the knowledge that we all know in the playoffs LA is eventually going to play Davis at the 5 and LeBron at the 4.
Speaking of which, it does say something about the era we live in where everyone understands that the Lakers would be a better team with Davis playing center and LeBron at PF, but since Davis just doesn't want to play center and LeBron wants to be a guard, the Lakers consistently roll out a gameplan that isn't in their own best interest. Perhaps in the playoffs they will revert to that, and you could argue it makes sense to avoid the clanging-and-banging a those positions during the regular season, but it does show how much control LeBron and Davis have over the team and the coaching staff.
Speaking of which, it does say something about the era we live in where everyone understands that the Lakers would be a better team with Davis playing center and LeBron at PF, but since Davis just doesn't want to play center and LeBron wants to be a guard, the Lakers consistently roll out a gameplan that isn't in their own best interest. Perhaps in the playoffs they will revert to that, and you could argue it makes sense to avoid the clanging-and-banging a those positions during the regular season, but it does show how much control LeBron and Davis have over the team and the coaching staff.
Edited: what filler is needed to match Thompson+Love? Hayward, Kanter and VP? You could do it ideally as a 3-teamer where Portland gets Hayward and sends Whiteside, filler and draft assets to Cleveland. Hayward has a lot of positive value, particularly to the Blazers.
It makes sense to avoid the clanging and banging. They're going to make the playoffs, and you need AD as fresh as possible there. Playing center takes a real toll--he's not an idiot.
The Cavs would want young so TL would be one obvious inclusion. I haven’t looked closely as salary but maybe Theis would need to be added to make deal work. Neither player would have a role with Love and TT around.
Except that when healthy, Hayward is a more valuable player than either Love or Thompson.
You are correct that Thompson is having a decent year defensively but, aside from his ability to match up with key opposing bigs (which is worth something), he simply isn't as impactful as Hayward. Furthermore his differential is the best its been in years including a few LeBron teams. Anyone acquiring him may be "buying at the highs" of his production.
I think that is definitely an argument for Davis avoiding the center position. Still, he has only played 91 minutes, or around 10 percent of his total playing time this season, without at least one of McGee and Howard. It seems kind of strange that when you are actively trying to win games, you wouldn't go with your best lineup. Out of those 91 minutes, only 50 of them have also featured LeBron James. So we have seen very little of the Davis at the 5 and LeBron at the 4.
The only player affected would be JaVale but there is another important factor which is giving say a Dallas the ability to matchup with the Laker bigs by having acquired TT. There is the additional value in keeping this player out of your 7-game series as well as a JaVale upgrade.
I think the likely answer is that they don't care as much about playoff seeding as much as keeping AD and LeBron healthy.
I’d argue that with our roster a player such as Love would be a better fit and a better rotational fit than Hayward is. Let’s also not forget that Hayward is not fully healthy.
The parameters of this deal don't make sense to me unless Hayward is treated as an asset. TL+Hayward+Theis is WAY too much to give up for Love (barely an asset on his contract) and Thompson (expiring). If you get a 3rd team that values Hayward highly (he places the scarcest position in the league very well), then that team can send Cleveland the young players or draft assets it wants.
I highly, highly doubt the Celtics will sell low on TL unless they have internal reason to believe his injury issues are chronic.
Kanter+VP+Hayward works for money in Trade Machine:
http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yx2dxucs
Thompson cleanly replaces Kanter, and VP never plays, so no issues there.
The Lakers are not going to be BIG in the playoffs; they are presumably going to go small. If they are still playing McGree and Howard 35+ mpg, they will be doing their opponents a big favor.
FTFY. I don't even buy the health thing that much; Davis was injured a lot in New Orleans and played a lot of minutes with a traditional five during that period. I think it is a stylistic choice, LeBron wants to be a guard and Davis doesn't want to be a center, even if that is there best option for team success. I think eventually in the playoffs they are going to have to accept that.
I don’t buy the conventional wisdom that Portland will part with a real asset for Love. I think you can pry Love and TT loose for straight salary relief (haven’t done the math, but GH and Kanter would get you close).
From a talent perspective, however, the C’s would be giving up a quarter for two nickels. Sure, one of those nickels would cover a hole in the roster, but that isn’t nearly enough to justify the downgrade, either in the short run or the long run. So the deal doesn’t make make sense for the C’s, unless the difference between Love’s deal and what GH will get this summer allows them to avoid some sort of luxury tax armageddon.
Edit: In addition to the talent downgrade, I think the current roster is better built to beat the Bucks than a roster with GH and Kanter swapped out for Love and TT.
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That may be true. Simply pointing out that metrics don't support the view that either Love or Thompson would make the Celtics better.
I know that there are compound effects to swapping rotation pieces but Hayward is simply a more valuable player than those guys. You are correct that he isn't healthy now and as frustrating as his injuries are, its not clear that he is suffering from something that may keep him out for the rest of the year. If healthy, you can make a pretty compelling argument that dealing him hurts Boston overall. You don't seem to be inclined to buy that line of thinking and that is fine. That said, you may be looking at something I am not data-wise so if I am missing something please share.
So I've watched some Cavs this year (boredom), and Thompson generally looks really good. Their defensive ecosystem with Garland, Sexton, and Porter is atrocious, so I don't pay a ton of attention to metrics in that case, since it's really hard to control for individual players in those cases. If there's a decent chance Hayward is screwed, Thompson is an easy add for me out of all the bigs out there.
Love is the tricky one for me--I think he'd be good offensively on a winning team, and he adds a deadeye shooter element the Celtics lack. The $100M question is whether he's as cooked as he looks at times, or if it's a product of playing on a shit team. I don't know. Ultimately I think it's Love's contract that the Celtics would balk at. If he had (say) 2 years left on the deal, I probably do it and use him as an expiring in a further deal next year.
Edit: removed Capela discussion since there's no way to match salary.
Big difference between AD and LBJ here.
AD will definitely need to play the 5 in the playoffs, at least in some matchups. But being an undersized 5 is physically grueling; there’s a lot to be said for letting others do most of the banging with opposing 5s across an 82-game schedule.
If the Lakers are going to run the offense through LBJ, he belongs at the 1, both now and during the playoffs. It doesn’t matter much these days who brings the ball up court. The Lakers are better off with a longer defender on the supporting cast — it’s not like they have any undersized guys with plus 3-and-D skills who are languishing on the bench because LBJ is running point.
By LeBron playing the four, I am really talking about LeBron being the second biggest guy on the court for LA, not necessarily that he has to be on the block all the time and not handling the ball. This would naturally happen if Davis plays Center and McGee/Howard sit. Davis + LeBron + 3 other wings/guards that can shoot would be the ideal lineup for LA.
LeBron historically has not wanted to be a "big man." I remember right after he left Miami, Brian Windhorst was on ESPN talking about how LeBron didn't like in Miami how committed they were to playing small, and while LeBron was physically capable of playing the four and banging with David West in the playoffs, he didn't like playing that style. Obviously, in Cleveland he was frequently insulated from having to do that with Love and Thompson.
But why? They are destroying teams with mismatches due to their immense size and length. Why would they ever want to go small when they can create such advantages but going big?
Have you watched the NBA over the last ten years? I'm not falling further into the HRB hole but you know the answer to the question.
Even if a deal exists where GH going out and Love/Thompson coming in marginally increases our equity this year, I can't imagine one where Love is a net positive on this team long-term. I'd rather lose the slot.
I’ve watched all year how teams have been unable to matchup with LBJ at the 3 and AD at the 4. I can’t understand for the life of ne why everyone is trying to make LeBron a “big” when he has spent his entire career and this season overpowering smaller wings.
But that is the thing - unless Hayward's nerve irritation is a bigger issue - in which case it will cost the C's something more than just him to acquire either - I don't see a deal for either improving the C's overall. Yes, Thompson would give them a good defender down low which is important against your Embiids of the world. However its not clear that TT is all that effective against Embiid.
Do people really want the C's to spend young players or draft assets so they have a guy who might slow Embiid a bit more than their current rotation? I suspect that the downgrade from losing Hayward - to injury or via a trade - makes this team less of a playoff threat this year, even with an upgrade in the front-court. Trading away assets for that scenario seems a bit shortsighted but again, I may be missing something. I am a bit more firm in my view that Love to the C's is not a fit at all given his salary and the fact that he isn't really a big to bang with the types of players who present match-up problems.
Agree with this. Thompson intrigues me. Love does not. Want no part of future Love years.
The Port Cellar would rightfully explode.The Celtics are already a threat to the Bucks. As the season moves along Tatum/Brown will continue to improve and narrow that spread.
HRB, don't take this the wrong way cause I luv ya man and we've had our differences about BIGs over the years, BUT you are out of your cotton-picking mind.
Kevin Love and TT for assets? Yuck
They have nice counting numbers on a crap team. They were good playing off LBJ, but once it was their show Cleveland has been a bottom feeder in the EC.
GH is a better fit on these Celtics and I'm not sure Kevin Love is as good as Utah Gordon right now? Love is fading fast. That contract is not going to age well, there is a reason he hasn't been moved yet. Nobody wants to pay him $90MM for the next 3 seasons. He plays on his heels defensively and if you think Theis isn't strong enough to guard a 5 wait until you get a load of Love in the post. Conga line to the rim.
Throw in Theis or Kanter?
Is TT even as good as Kanter offensively?
I know you never were a Daniel Theis fan but I figured after this season you would have changed your stance. Besides his plus play, Theis is on a cheap 2-year deal, exactly what you need on your 10 man rotation when you need to pay Tatum/Brown/Kemba. Speaking of which how on earth do you pay Love $30MM and pay Brown/Kemba/Tatum and Smart for the next several seasons?
If TT shows up after a buyout (which he wouldn't), then he can be a Celtic, otherwise, no interest. Maybe Miami uses that Dion Waiters/JJ 2yr deadweight contracts to add an expiring TT or Love. IDK
Throw in Rob Williams? picks? Put down the spiked egg nog
As far as addressing the Embiid issue, I expect plenty of BIGs will be available for not much (VP/2nd) or in the buyout market. Giving up assets for TT or Love is unnecessary.
Otherwise, Happy Holidays and best of luck with the books
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What young assets am I proposing being moved? TL is a deep bench flier who can be replace with our multitude of picks to draft another deep bench flier.....and excess low #1’s carry minimal value.
All I’m including is filler along with nerve damaged Hayward. I’m kinda surprised people wouldn’t feel Love is a major improvement over an injured Hayward and we add a solid 5 for matchup purposes to upgrade Theis/Kanter/TL minutes.
The excuse of Love’s contract doesn’t fly with me as it is only two years longer than Hayward’s, declines in AAV, and would be easily moveable at that time. Do people really not want to try and compete to reach The Finals this year being so close? It would be a shame to waste an opportunity when the risk is so minimal to upgrade.
Totally disagree here. Would much rather have a declining Love for two years than nobody at all.
Just doing a bit of digging on Thompson vs Embiid - and head to head measures are obviously imperfect given that there are eight other players on the floor at any given time - but Embiid has actually shot a better than career FG% vs Thompson on the same number of attempts per game. Where Thompson seems to impact Embiid is rebounding which makes sense. The caveat is the sample sizes are still relatively small.
Assuming that is correct, do you really want to deal Hayward plus one of their recent drafted players or a pick for Love? I wouldn't - but then again, I don't think Love added to this squad puts them over the top or anywhere near it.
If Hayward is truly injured to the point where this season is lost, I think the Cavs can do better than just taking him plus filler for salary relief. Love vs a healthy Hayward is not an upgrade based on anything I have looked at. I don't hate Kevin Love and he is still a very useful NBA player - which is why I suspect other teams with better fits will pay more for him.
Assuming that is correct, do you really want to deal Hayward plus one of their recent drafted players or a pick for Love? I wouldn't - but then again, I don't think Love added to this squad puts them over the top or anywhere near it.
I think Love is a significant upgrade over anyone we currently start at the 5 yes. Our recent draft picks who aren’t part of our rotation are filler who can be easily replaced with future draft picks. We maintain Love’s salary slot. In addition we add a better rotation big than what we currently have. I struggle to see the downside others do.
Love may be the worst contract in the league right now. He's constantly hurt, the contract is super long, and he isn't a great scorer. Lots of folks are remembering Minnesota Love. He's not that anymore.
Nobody is remembering Minnesota Love. Some are witnessing post-ankle Hayward who has only two fewer years on his deal and possibly 2 more years of being in a designer suit.
If forced to guess right now, I'd say Love is headed to Miami. Riley has never been bashful about spending Arison's money, and you can make an argument that Love could put them over the top. Plus Miami has short deals to send back: Olynyk+ Leonard works for matching purposes.