Farrell released a statement. Sorry I can only link to the tweet currently and can't embed the statement.
I don't understand what there is to practice. It's the start of a high leverage clean inning late in the ballgame. He had been used sparingly in the 8th in his career and almost always in high leverage situations.He was in the game earlier than usual, hadn't gotten up in the pen that early in a couple of months, had only 1 appearance of more than one inning over the last couple of months of the season (and that was for only 1.1 innings). He didn't look ready from the outset and it's fair to wonder if he wasn't ready because he hadn't been practicing coming into the game that early.
The Pomeranz trade is one where the probability distributions worked out well in DD's favor, absolutely. You need those to offset brain dead decisions to trade someone who was at worst a highly functional strong side of a platoon (and 3 other prospects) for a single middle reliever.You're just talking nonsense now. Thornburg got hurt, therefore in your mind the trade was made for an injured player. That's objectively stupid.
DD is also the same guy who did not rescind the Pom trade over the doctored medicals and the guy played a huge part in getting the team to the postseason this year, even if he like every other starter did not pitch well while in it.
He answered the second question. Yes.Did any writer have the guts to ask Dave Dombrowski what role his trade of a 30-HR starting 3B for an injured middle reliever played in this season's outcome?
Or whether John Farrell would still have been fired if the relief ace that Dave Dombrowski had traded 4 prospects to obtain hadn't shit his pants in the highest leverage situation he's been placed in since the trade?
I am a big believer in putting players in the best position to succeed. If you look at, say, Koji's usage patterns down the stretch in 2013 you'll see many more multi-inning appearances than Kimbrel had. I believe that players really do need practice in getting ready to come into the game earlier than they are used to; if modern baseball is going to be enslaved to this closer idea then the closers will simply practice for 1 inning at a time. If they want to use a guy for multiple innings then I truly believe they need to practice doing so by making multi-inning appearances beforehand.Yeah, this argument makes very little sense. For whatever people think of Farrell, I think he probably told Kimbrel "hey, be ready to come in during the 8th today". Seems like its just chalking up a bad result to being unprepared and then trying to find a reason for a bad thing happening beyond just a good pitcher was a little off and got beat by a good hitting team for a run.
This is totally a bridge too far for me.He was in the game earlier than usual, hadn't gotten up in the pen that early in a couple of months, had only 1 appearance of more than one inning over the last couple of months of the season (and that was for only 1.1 innings). He didn't look ready from the outset and it's fair to wonder if he wasn't ready because he hadn't been practicing coming into the game that early.
Continuing to call Thornburg a "middle reliever" is disingenuous at best and an outright falsehood at worst. He pitched in either the 8th or 9th inning in 2016 in 58 out of his 67 appearances. He was first their setup man and then their closer. Setup men and closers are farmore valuable than the Heath Hembrees of the world.The Pomeranz trade is one where the probability distributions worked out well in DD's favor, absolutely. You need those to offset brain dead decisions to trade someone who was at worst a highly functional strong side of a platoon (and 3 other prospects) for a single middle reliever.
Middle relievers get hurt all the time. Thornburg had already had a PRP injection (which is why I refer to him as injured). In order for amthatvtrade to work out for Boston, Thornburg would have had to have been an all star MR while Shaw settled in well below his career numbers to date and shifted to 1B. You just can't justify trading an everyday player for a middle reliever. The value is against you from the start.
I count 9 multi inning appearances by Koji in 2013 vs. 7 by Kimbrel in 2017.This is totally a bridge too far for me.
First, Kimbrel was not good in his first inning of work. I don't understand how him not going multiple innings during the regular season impacted his first inning of work. It's not like he was electric during the 8th and then wore down on pitch #40 or something.
Second, if Kimbrel's performance is *that* sensitive to "coming into the game early" (which makes no sense since games start at different times, are different lengths, have rain delays, whatever -- like, does he sleep innings 1-8 usually?), then I'm not super confident having him pitch multiple innings a handful of times during the regular season was really going to help. Plenty of one-inning relievers work multiple innings during the playoffs.
Andrew Miller went >1 inning 11 times last year and followed that up with a postseason where folks gushed over his multi-inning "fireman" usage. Craig Kimbrel went >1 inning 7 times this year. Do we really think Kimbrel getting another 3-4 outings of 1.1 inning is the difference in him being good and bad the other day?
A much simpler explanation is Kimbrel, who has had bouts of wildness throughout his career (with Red Sox and before) was clearly amped and overthrowing and was not able to get swings-misses on his fastball (0 for 25).
If he was overthrowing he would have in fact gotten swings and misses. He would have been wild, but he would have been throwing harder.A much simpler explanation is Kimbrel, who has had bouts of wildness throughout his career (with Red Sox and before) was clearly amped and overthrowing and was not able to get swings-misses on his fastball (0 for 25).
Koji had 6 multi-inning appearances over the last two months of 2013.I count 9 multi inning appearances by Koji in 2013 vs. 7 by Kimbrel in 2017.
Your last sentence seems like a more likely explanation.
1. They don't have attendance to kill and merchandising is split evenly among the thirty teams regardless of who sells what, so that's a non factor.A year ago the Marlins had two franchise centerpiece players, now all they have is Stanton. They need to trade him, not just to get out from under his contract but also because they need to bring in multiple young talented players to fill some of their many holes. At least one player coming back must be a proven ML-level talent that they can promote to their fans. They can't risk trading for just prospects, all of whom may not become much of anything. It would be a PR nightmare and kill attendance/merchandising for the immediate future.
If it was a salary dump, the Marlins wouldn't care about what they got in return. That is simply not the case, he will require a great deal of talent in return.
There's only 3 players in MLB that I would trade one of Mookie/Benny/Devers for, and Stanton is one of them.
Yes, the Yankees have plenty of young talent to trade for Stanton. I wonder though, how will the Marlins fanbase react to a trade of Stanton to the Yankees? If it seems like Jeter didn't get enough for him, you know they'll be suspicious.
DD was very generous to and protective of a manager he did not hire. That's to DD's credit. I don't think this was knee jerk, as it would be with lots of GMs. I think DD believes improvement was necessary and achievable. Because this move was made at DD's initiative, DD is now on the clock.I feel for Farrell but if I am DD, this was his chance to get his own guy and he took it. Is it as simple as that?
Many holes? The lineup is pretty decent as it is. The only "holes" are 3B, where they have a prospect on the verge of taking the job (Brian Anderson), and SS, where they have a defensive whiz when healthy (Hechavarria). Where they are hurting is in the rotation where they have Jose Urena, Edinson Volquez, Dan Straily, Wei-Yin Chen, and a mess of retreads and a couple of decent prospects. They really need a #1 and #2 starters (this is where losing Fernandez hurts), and bench/bullpen depth. They aren't as far off as people think and with new ownership they might make the right investments to get right back into the division race year to year. This isn't a team like the Padres or Tigers that really have tons of holes. They really don't have a big incentive to deal Stanton unless blown away, and the Sox aren't going to be that team to blow them away, if anyone could.A year ago the Marlins had two franchise centerpiece players, now all they have is Stanton. They need to trade him, not just to get out from under his contract but also because they need to bring in multiple young talented players to fill some of their many holes. At least one player coming back must be a proven ML-level talent that they can promote to their fans. They can't risk trading for just prospects, all of whom may not become much of anything. It would be a PR nightmare and kill attendance/merchandising for the immediate future.
If it was a salary dump, the Marlins wouldn't care about what they got in return. That is simply not the case, he will require a great deal of talent in return.
There's only 3 players in MLB that I would trade one of Mookie/Benny/Devers for, and Stanton is one of them.
Yes, the Yankees have plenty of young talent to trade for Stanton. I wonder though, how will the Marlins fanbase react to a trade of Stanton to the Yankees? If it seems like Jeter didn't get enough for him, you know they'll be suspicious.
Whatever it was, isn't the potential unreliability of Kimbrel, being used outside his usual role in an elimination game, something that's in the pitching coach's purview? Or for the manager to take into account?A much simpler explanation is Kimbrel, who has had bouts of wildness throughout his career (with Red Sox and before) was clearly amped and overthrowing and was not able to get swings-misses on his fastball (0 for 25).
I'm with you as far as the Marlins having fewer holes than was implied (save for their rotation), but either you missed the fact that they traded Hechavarria in June or you meant to put another name for their defensive whiz shortstop.Many holes? The lineup is pretty decent as it is. The only "holes" are 3B, where they have a prospect on the verge of taking the job (Brian Anderson), and SS, where they have a defensive whiz when healthy (Hechavarria). Where they are hurting is in the rotation where they have Jose Urena, Edinson Volquez, Dan Straily, Wei-Yin Chen, and a mess of retreads and a couple of decent prospects. They really need a #1 and #2 starters (this is where losing Fernandez hurts), and bench/bullpen depth. They aren't as far off as people think and with new ownership they might make the right investments to get right back into the division race year to year. This isn't a team like the Padres or Tigers that really have tons of holes. They really don't have a big incentive to deal Stanton unless blown away, and the Sox aren't going to be that team to blow them away, if anyone could.
... but Kimbrel was throwing harder.If he was overthrowing he would have in fact gotten swings and misses. He would have been wild, but he would have been throwing harder.
This is more of a philosophical question than anything else so we're never going to agree on this. My take is that if you want to use a guy for multiple innings in the postseason you should get him ready to do so by using him that way leading up to the postseason.
I've already filed it away as a bad memory, but overthrowing per se doesnt necessarily equate to more swings and misses does it? If you end up throwing way over or out of the zone, maybe its just lots easier to lay off pitches and just wait for the times hes forced to groove one. Indeed, wasnt it the case that when things went to shit it was precisely because he got into a full count situation with bases loaded, or bases to load with Altuve up next?If he was overthrowing he would have in fact gotten swings and misses. He would have been wild, but he would have been throwing harder.
This is more of a philosophical question than anything else so we're never going to agree on this. My take is that if you want to use a guy for multiple innings in the postseason you should get him ready to do so by using him that way leading up to the postseason.
he thanked every possible constituency except DaveFarrell released a statement. Sorry I can only link to the tweet currently and can't embed the statement.
And using Price and Sale as relievers kept our playoffs alive. They were way further out of their usual role than a closer is being used on the 8th inning.Whatever it was, isn't the potential unreliability of Kimbrel, being used outside his usual role in an elimination game, something that's in the pitching coach's purview? Or for the manager to take into account?
I mean that's sort of cutting to the chase re: responsibility. The players must execute, but if they're not effective, it behooves the manager to react and adapt and put the team in a position to win. Asking a player to move outside a typical usage had better be something that the player, the manager (and coaches) are comfortable with, and, if possible, have already provided a safety net for. Like, say, Reed or anyone else warming up. We all know baseball has a mental component and different players have different comfort levels about their real or perceived roles. IMO, it's borderline idiotic to embrace limited and defined roles for 162 games and then get funky in an elimination game.
(Arguably, bringing Verlander in to a relief situation might have been the biggest favor the Astros did for us.)
I agree that the Marlins don't need to blow it up right now and could certainly build on their roster to try and compete going forward, but Jeter made it pretty clear he wants payroll cut down to 60M next year and plans on rebuilding. Stanton said he wants no part of rebuilding anymore, so it seems likely Jeter will make every effort to find a deal and move him. Not really the typical "blow me away" Stanton trade scenario that we've seen in the past.Many holes? The lineup is pretty decent as it is. The only "holes" are 3B, where they have a prospect on the verge of taking the job (Brian Anderson), and SS, where they have a defensive whiz when healthy (Hechavarria). Where they are hurting is in the rotation where they have Jose Urena, Edinson Volquez, Dan Straily, Wei-Yin Chen, and a mess of retreads and a couple of decent prospects. They really need a #1 and #2 starters (this is where losing Fernandez hurts), and bench/bullpen depth. They aren't as far off as people think and with new ownership they might make the right investments to get right back into the division race year to year. This isn't a team like the Padres or Tigers that really have tons of holes. They really don't have a big incentive to deal Stanton unless blown away, and the Sox aren't going to be that team to blow them away, if anyone could.
This is nuts. I mean, I'm done with this argument. Reed was warming up. It's unclear if Farrell was managing the game. But whatever.Whatever it was, isn't the potential unreliability of Kimbrel, being used outside his usual role in an elimination game, something that's in the pitching coach's purview? Or for the manager to take into account?
I mean that's sort of cutting to the chase re: responsibility. The players must execute, but if they're not effective, it behooves the manager to react and adapt and put the team in a position to win. Asking a player to move outside a typical usage had better be something that the player, the manager (and coaches) are comfortable with, and, if possible, have already provided a safety net for. Like, say, Reed or anyone else warming up. We all know baseball has a mental component and different players have different comfort levels about their real or perceived roles. IMO, it's borderline idiotic to embrace limited and defined roles for 162 games and then get funky in an elimination game.
(Arguably, bringing Verlander in to a relief situation might have been the biggest favor the Astros did for us.)
To be fair I'd never thank a guy that just fired me the same day either.he thanked every possible constituency except Dave
To my eye - it wasn't just FB command - his curve/slider/whatever it is/ was mediocre at best. He threw it a few of times that I remember and it was a total cookie - hardly any break at all or bounced it. So much so that Vazquez seemed to stop calling for it.This is totally a bridge too far for me.
First, Kimbrel was not good in his first inning of work. I don't understand how him not going multiple innings during the regular season impacted his first inning of work. It's not like he was electric during the 8th and then wore down on pitch #40 or something.
Second, if Kimbrel's performance is *that* sensitive to "coming into the game early" (which makes no sense since games start at different times, are different lengths, have rain delays, whatever -- like, does he sleep innings 1-8 usually?), then I'm not super confident having him pitch multiple innings a handful of times during the regular season was really going to help. Plenty of one-inning relievers work multiple innings during the playoffs.
Andrew Miller went >1 inning 11 times last year and followed that up with a postseason where folks gushed over his multi-inning "fireman" usage. Craig Kimbrel went >1 inning 7 times this year. Do we really think Kimbrel getting another 3-4 outings of 1.1 inning is the difference in him being good and bad the other day?
A much simpler explanation is Kimbrel, who has had bouts of wildness throughout his career (with Red Sox and before) was clearly amped and overthrowing and was not able to get swings-misses on his fastball (0 for 25).
Adding to this a bit. Wasn't part of the reason Kimbrel wasn't used in the 8th more in the second half of the season because HE asked not to be used so much in that capacity? I seem to remember it was him that pushed back a bit after he was used so effectively in a few 8th inning spots in the first couple months of the season.This is nuts. I mean, I'm done with this argument. Reed was warming up. It's unclear if Farrell was managing the game. But whatever.
You guys are ascribing way too much of player performance to the manager. David Price worked in relief and was fine. Chris Sale worked in relief and was fine. Justin Verlander worked in relief and outside of one pitch to Benintendi that was 2 rows deep in RF was fine.
Craig Kimbrel is an elite closer for a major league baseball team. It is not like he is some 18 year old from A ball pitching in his first game. I refuse to believe that him sucking should be pinned on the manager "because he was pitching in the 8th inning instead of the 9th inning," particularly when he was almost certainly told "you may be pitching as early as the 8th inning" all series long. And if that *is* actually why he sucked, is it magically going to be fixed by him pitching the 8th inning a few more times during the regular season? Shouldn't DD have just not traded for a guy that has those issues?
He needed someone to replace the corpse of Jacoby. He'll probably shift to Manuel after Shaw turns into a pumpkin again.Continuing to call Thornburg a "middle reliever" is disingenuous at best and an outright falsehood at worst. He pitched in either the 8th or 9th inning in 2016 in 58 out of his 67 appearances. He was first their setup man and then their closer. Setup men and closers are farmore valuable than the Heath Hembrees of the world.
And they traded a guy who had an OPS of 90 for him, who had a horrific second half in 2016 and who got benched for the playoffs.
Travis Shaw doesn't love you and has never loved you. Stop pining for him.
Yeah, I brain farted there. Forgot it was Riddle mostly at the end. So there's one hole.I'm with you as far as the Marlins having fewer holes than was implied (save for their rotation), but either you missed the fact that they traded Hechavarria in June or you meant to put another name for their defensive whiz shortstop.
He's still going to get more from someone else than he'll get from the Sox, so it's a pipe dream for people on this board.I agree that the Marlins don't need to blow it up right now and could certainly build on their roster to try and compete going forward, but Jeter made it pretty clear he wants payroll cut down to 60M next year and plans on rebuilding. Stanton said he wants no part of rebuilding anymore, so it seems likely Jeter will make every effort to find a deal and move him. Not really the typical "blow me away" Stanton trade scenario that we've seen in the past.
That's not fair. He thanked 3 people by name, all of whom have a piece of ownership. He thanked the front office for giving him great players, that cover DD. He said he got to be around HoFers, but didn't name Ortiz specifically. I feel your take is nitpicking.he thanked every possible constituency except Dave
Well, it's kind of a moot issue since he's gone. However, the use of roles and comfort within the role are often discussed by the actual players. Some people do better than others in certain roles - witness batting order effects, or guys who can't close out games. So its a real thing. Whether or not Kimbrel was vulnerable to it is another issue. But clearly, he had problems.And using Price and Sale as relievers kept our playoffs alive. They were way further out of their usual role than a closer is being used on the 8th inning.
This whole example is so far from indicative of Farrell's managerial skills as to be ridiculous.
You might be right. I agree with Canderson that I would not thank the guy who just fired me by name. And he didn't.That's not fair. He thanked 3 people by name, all of whom have a piece of ownership. He thanked the front office for giving him great players, that cover DD. He said he got to be around HoFers, but didn't name Ortiz specifically. I feel your take is nitpicking.
Right. The farm system has very little in the way of trade chips and certainly not enough to keep up with other teams that might be interested in acquiring him (again, the Yankees seem like an obvious fit).He's still going to get more from someone else than he'll get from the Sox, so it's a pipe dream for people on this board.
Was he warmed up when Kimbrel came in the 8th? If so, that was clearly the right thing to do.This is nuts. I mean, I'm done with this argument. Reed was warming up. It's unclear if Farrell was managing the game. But whatever.
Agreed. He thanked "two front office groups", how does that not include Dombrowski? And he thanked the owners by name because they sign his paycheck. It was actually a very nice statement, IMO. Hopefully, that's the last we hear about it from him or the team.That's not fair. He thanked 3 people by name, all of whom have a piece of ownership. He thanked the front office for giving him great players, that cover DD. He said he got to be around HoFers, but didn't name Ortiz specifically. I feel your take is nitpicking.
Doesn't really mean much if you can't see how many wouldn't clear the Monster.
Ah, now there's a name that brings me back to the golden era of Yankees' baseball!Hensley Meulens is apparently a candidate for SOX manager
TIL: his nickname is Bam Bam
Per Wikipedia; On April 27, 2012, Meulens was awarded with the Order of Orange-Nassau by Queen Beatrix, which is a chivalry order of the Netherlands that is the equivalent of knighthood.Hensley Meulens is apparently a candidate for SOX manager
TIL: his nickname is Bam Bam
even knowing this was a joke, I just threw up a little in my mouth...On that theory, ask Angelos about Buck.
Might as well have some fun while we're trying to get serious business done.
Their shared Dutchness will enable him to maximize Bogaerts's potential. They can speak to each other in 4 languages.Per Wikipedia; On April 27, 2012, Meulens was awarded with the Order of Orange-Nassau by Queen Beatrix, which is a chivalry order of the Netherlands that is the equivalent of knighthood.
So that would be Sir Hensley Meulens.
While I'm sure this was all discussed before hand, let's not forget that Farrell was in the clubhouse in the 2nd inning and it would have been up to DiSarcina and Willis to see that Kimbrell didn't look right in the 8th and 9th.This is totally a bridge too far for me.
First, Kimbrel was not good in his first inning of work. I don't understand how him not going multiple innings during the regular season impacted his first inning of work. It's not like he was electric during the 8th and then wore down on pitch #40 or something.
Second, if Kimbrel's performance is *that* sensitive to "coming into the game early" (which makes no sense since games start at different times, are different lengths, have rain delays, whatever -- like, does he sleep innings 1-8 usually?), then I'm not super confident having him pitch multiple innings a handful of times during the regular season was really going to help. Plenty of one-inning relievers work multiple innings during the playoffs.
Andrew Miller went >1 inning 11 times last year and followed that up with a postseason where folks gushed over his multi-inning "fireman" usage. Craig Kimbrel went >1 inning 7 times this year. Do we really think Kimbrel getting another 3-4 outings of 1.1 inning is the difference in him being good and bad the other day?
A much simpler explanation is Kimbrel, who has had bouts of wildness throughout his career (with Red Sox and before) was clearly amped and overthrowing and was not able to get swings-misses on his fastball (0 for 25).
"Sidney Ponson, pitching coach" has a terrible ring to it.Their shared Dutchness will enable him to maximize Bogaerts's potential. They can speak to each other in 4 languages.
Dayum.
We already have a final three?FWIW
Reporter in MIN (sports reporter for the pioneer press)
This may not be Bobby V level bad but it could be close!FWIW
Reporter in MIN (sports reporter for the pioneer press)
I am behind this only so we may call our manager Sir Bam Bam. And my entertainment is paramount, analytical and people skills are secondary.Per Wikipedia; On April 27, 2012, Meulens was awarded with the Order of Orange-Nassau by Queen Beatrix, which is a chivalry order of the Netherlands that is the equivalent of knighthood.
So that would be Sir Hensley Meulens.