2017 Butler Watch: Love Me Tender

DeadlySplitter

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But it seems that something happened last year that caused BB to conclude that there was a very significant risk that they would never be able to sign Butler long term, so he moved quickly to get another #1 corner.
We reportedly had no interest in Gilmore until the morning he was signed. Obviously could be false but it reads like this gap in contract negotiations came up very recently, not last year.

And now it's looking like he's going to be gone with every passing day.
 

BaseballJones

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You seem to make it sound like these picks are set in stone. The value in both PACKAGES are the SAME(at least according to Howes' point I took issue with). If you say NO to one, you'd say NO to the other. If six weeks from now someone was on the board in the #11 range, but you've traded the #11, you could use the PACKAGE of picks you didn't trade instead of #11 to MOVE UP into the same area of the draft if you need to. Be no different if the Pats got #11, but didn't see a player they liked they can trade down. They're just negotiables at this point. They're just negotiating a price for a player.

Think you reversed the cars analogy. Are the Saints buying ten cars? The Saints are buying one Butler El Dorado. They're willing to pay $50,000 for it. If the Patriots ask for one bank check at 60 grand, or three bank checks at 20 grand each, or a 30 grand check and a Mark Ingram El Camino trade in the Saints value at 30 grand, the Saints say no to all. No matter what denominations the Patriots break it into, the price hasn't changed. But if the Patriots say we'll take one 50 grand bank check, or five 10 grand bank checks, or their Andrus Peat Trans Am the Saints value at 50K, the Saints say yes.
Just so I'm sure I understand you correctly... if one pick has equal value to a certain collection of other picks, there's no way any team would ever prefer that one pick over the collection of picks of cumulative equal value? That's what you're arguing, right?
 

TheoShmeo

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All this talk of how the Pats shouldn't trade him seems misguided. Butler was an incredible story and everybody hoped that he would be an anchor of the franchise, #1 corner for the rest of the BB era. But it seems that something happened last year that caused BB to conclude that there was a very significant risk that they would never be able to sign Butler long term, so he moved quickly to get another #1 corner. Having done that, they are now looking to exploit the leverage they have to get as much value from trading Butler as they can. It looks like Plan A was a straight trade for Cooks, and when that didn't pan out b/c he wouldn't sign the tender, they made that deal, and now are looking to get back that pick, or maybe a couple lower picks, or maybe even less (a la Collins). It's pretty great that they could stand pat and just play him at the tender but I don't think that was ever part of the plan and I don't think anybody involved here views that as a particularly plausible outcome.

This has a similar look to it as the Welker situation, where the Pats realized that there was a difference in how they valued him and how he valued himself, so they moved on, at which point it was too late for him to come back. Same thing for Bennett.
Welker and Bennett are a lot different than Butler in two important respects.

One, there was good reason to believe that both were on the back nine. Welker had his bell ring constantly and BB likely believed that it would catch up to him or already had started to on some level. Bennett played through a lot of injuries last year and again Bill might believe that his best days are behind him.

Two, neither WR or TE is as difficult to replace as CB. It's never just a snap of the finger to replace an elite player but top corners strike me as an extremely rare commodity. Look at the list of marginal guys the Pats have used over the years at that position.

I take your point that BB made a value determination in all three cases but the differences I noted make the comparison less meaningful in my view. And that's discounting that both Bennett and Welker may have had personalities that are more difficult to manage than Butler's. I don't want to overplay that but it may factor in to some extent, as well.
 

lexrageorge

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I don't get all this talk about the Pats trading Butler for a mid-round pick; that just makes no sense.

There is *no* sense of urgency for the Pats to trade Butler. I don't get why having Butler play for the tender is not an option. Unless the team really thinks Butler will sacrifice $3m+ to sit on the bench for the last 6 games, a situation that would certainly impact Butler's value on the open market the following season, then there's really no downside.

The timing so far should not be at all unexpected. Since the Pats have 5 days to match an offer sheet, teams don't want to deal with the level of uncertainty on whether those cap dollars will be there or not for other free agents. 5 days is a long time in the early FA market. Which means there is still plenty of time for things to work out between the Pats and Butler (or for the Pats to work out a trade for the appropriate value coming back in return).

I get that the Pats may not get pick #11, even if Butler does end up on the Saints. But the Pats do have leverage, and I don't see them throwing it away just to dump Butler for a 4th round pick. The Chandler Jones situation is not at all analogous: the Pats got a former #7 overall pick as a lottery ticket, and a 2nd rounder. The Jamie Collins situation is even less analogous: I don't recall Butler having shouting matches with Matt Patricia on a regular basis, and it's not mid-season.

Finally, there are 2 paths for a trade (anonymous tweets from amateurs notwithstanding, RFA rights cannot be traded):

a.) Butler signs the tender. Then the Pats are free to work out a trade with whomever, no strings attached. In this case, the Pats would probably give permission to a team to talk to Butler's agent about an extension prior to a trade, but the Pats certainly are not obligated to do that.

b.) The Pats match a competing team's offer sheet, and then trade Butler. The complication is that any trade would need to be agreed upon by both Butler and the NFLPA. Probably not an issue if Butler is getting paid. But that's another reason why I would expect the Pats to play by the book here. It's also complicated in that the Pats would potentially take a dead money charge, pending the terms of the offer sheet. So this is an unlikely scenario.
 

Hoodie Sleeves

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There is *no* sense of urgency for the Pats to trade Butler. I don't get why having Butler play for the tender is not an option. Unless the team really thinks Butler will sacrifice $3m+ to sit on the bench for the last 6 games, a situation that would certainly impact Butler's value on the open market the following season, then there's really no downside.
Right - the big thing here is that Butler was a UDFA - he's made $1.5m total over his 3 year career.

If he's still on the Patriots in a couple weeks, his choices are basically to try to get them to promise not to franchise in exchange for not holding out, or to back off on his long term deal demands. There's no real scenario where holding out doesn't hurt him more than it helps (and hurt him more than it hurts the patriots) - he gives up twice his prior career earnings, has a poor "contract year", etc.
 

Super Nomario

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Chandler Jones isn't consistently GREAT enough to be a truly elite DE. And I'm not sure it's such an easy call these days, the value of a DE vs. a high-end corner like Butler.
I agree with all of this, but I think Butler's lack of size keeps him out of the elite category as well. He didn't match up to the AJ Greens and Demaryius Thomases. If a team signs him to a huge deal and then expects him to lock down Julio Jones and Alshon Jeffery, they're probably not going to be happy.

Of course, the Patriots have Gilmore now, who can match up to those guys, so arguably Butler has more value to them than to most other teams. That would be a pretty sweet one-two punch if they can work something out.

I took all this in the context of financial value. At #32 you're paying first round money to a player who is often a first rounder in label only. At that point the players taken in the next tier aren't vastly professionally different but often financially are more viable than those first round stragglers. I think it is very much how BB runs the draft process.
The finances aren't that different though. Last year Germain Ifedi (the last pick in the first round; there were only 31 last year for some reason) signed a deal at a little over $2 MM per season; the 45th pick, Derrick Henry, signed for a little less than $1.4 MM. That's a big difference on a percentage basis, but not in absolute terms - $700K is a tiny fraction of the salary cap. The guaranteed money is more significant - Ifedi had about $6.7 MM in total guarantees, Henry $3.2 MM - but that's only really coming into play if you're cutting the guy before his rookie contract is up, which would be pretty uncommon for top 50 picks. If you really see no difference between the talent available at 32 and 45, sure, you'd rather pay 45 rates, but the talent gap doesn't have to be that much to offset the relatively modest price tag difference.
 

BigJimEd

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I don't get all this talk about the Pats trading Butler for a mid-round pick; that just makes no sense.

There is *no* sense of urgency for the Pats to trade Butler. I don't get why having Butler play for the tender is not an option. Unless the team really thinks Butler will sacrifice $3m+ to sit on the bench for the last 6 games, a situation that would certainly impact Butler's value on the open market the following season, then there's really no downside.

The timing so far should not be at all unexpected. Since the Pats have 5 days to match an offer sheet, teams don't want to deal with the level of uncertainty on whether those cap dollars will be there or not for other free agents. 5 days is a long time in the early FA market. Which means there is still plenty of time for things to work out between the Pats and Butler (or for the Pats to work out a trade for the appropriate value coming back in return).

I get that the Pats may not get pick #11, even if Butler does end up on the Saints. But the Pats do have leverage, and I don't see them throwing it away just to dump Butler for a 4th round pick. The Chandler Jones situation is not at all analogous: the Pats got a former #7 overall pick as a lottery ticket, and a 2nd rounder. The Jamie Collins situation is even less analogous: I don't recall Butler having shouting matches with Matt Patricia on a regular basis, and it's not mid-season.

Finally, there are 2 paths for a trade (anonymous tweets from amateurs notwithstanding, RFA rights cannot be traded):

a.) Butler signs the tender. Then the Pats are free to work out a trade with whomever, no strings attached. In this case, the Pats would probably give permission to a team to talk to Butler's agent about an extension prior to a trade, but the Pats certainly are not obligated to do that.

b.) The Pats match a competing team's offer sheet, and then trade Butler. The complication is that any trade would need to be agreed upon by both Butler and the NFLPA. Probably not an issue if Butler is getting paid. But that's another reason why I would expect the Pats to play by the book here. It's also complicated in that the Pats would potentially take a dead money charge, pending the terms of the offer sheet. So this is an unlikely scenario.
Just a minor note on A.
Before signing his tender Butler is free to talk contract with any team.
This is what is happening with NO and likely be how any possible trade happens. Before Butler signs the tender and before a team finalizes a trade, they will have contract details done.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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I agree with all of this, but I think Butler's lack of size keeps him out of the elite category as well. He didn't match up to the AJ Greens and Demaryius Thomases. If a team signs him to a huge deal and then expects him to lock down Julio Jones and Alshon Jeffery, they're probably not going to be happy.

Of course, the Patriots have Gilmore now, who can match up to those guys, so arguably Butler has more value to them than to most other teams. That would be a pretty sweet one-two punch if they can work something out.


The finances aren't that different though. Last year Germain Ifedi (the last pick in the first round; there were only 31 last year for some reason) signed a deal at a little over $2 MM per season; the 45th pick, Derrick Henry, signed for a little less than $1.4 MM. That's a big difference on a percentage basis, but not in absolute terms - $700K is a tiny fraction of the salary cap. The guaranteed money is more significant - Ifedi had about $6.7 MM in total guarantees, Henry $3.2 MM - but that's only really coming into play if you're cutting the guy before his rookie contract is up, which would be pretty uncommon for top 50 picks. If you really see no difference between the talent available at 32 and 45, sure, you'd rather pay 45 rates, but the talent gap doesn't have to be that much to offset the relatively modest price tag difference.
The finances aren't, but at 32 you get a fifth year option that you don't at 45. That's more than worth the cost in $.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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BRYeleJR

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I'm going to be really sad when Butler turns back into a pumpkin when he goes to play for the team where secondaries go to die.
Have to think it's going to be a massive difference for him facing Kelvin Benjamin, Julio Jones and Mike Evans for six games per year versus an older Brandon Marshall, with a QB who can't throw him the ball; Woods/Goodwin; and Landry/Parker/Stills.
 

BigJimEd

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See, heres the thing, Michael Giardi.

It doesn't fucking matter what Butler wants. He's a RFA.

I'm going to be really sad when Butler turns back into a pumpkin when he goes to play for the team where secondaries go to die.
Patriots still have a say but heres the thing.

It still matters if Butler wants to play somewhere or not. If he doesn't then he isn't signing with them.
 

DJnVa

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Have to think it's going to be a massive difference for him facing Kelvin Benjamin, Julio Jones and Mike Evans for six games per year versus an older Brandon Marshall, with a QB who can't throw him the ball; Woods/Goodwin; and Landry/Parker/Stills.
Let's not do that thing where we tear down a really fucking good player because he may leave our team.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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I think his main leverage is the difficulty of being a malcontent.

If the Saints are prepared to give him a lifetime of security in a contract but aren't willing to give pick number 11, it does put the Patriots in a difficult situation.

I'm not sure we have seen that situation too often since the RFA in its current form has been around. If he has $35m on the table or something in guarantee, and the Patriots and Saints can't work out a deal and the Saints won't do it as an offer sheet but will make an offer of say, 32 and something else, he's still going to perceive it as the Patriots blocking him from life altering security and injury protection. Fairly or unfairly at that point, he will likely hold out and just play the minimum six games I would think. Or even if not I suspect that while it's easy to say "tough shit Malcom, them's the rules," I don't think that's the kind of environment Bill likes. He's about shipping players out of the locker room at the first signs of discontent. It may be the same sensibility that led to not tendering Hightower.

That's pretty much the nightmare scenario. Saints offer something that the Patriots won't match but offer a trade of something that at least facially sounds kind of reasonable but isn't number 11.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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Do we have reason to think he'd be such a malcontent that that would all be an issue? I've yet to see a 'pay me' quote from him and he seems like he's been a good soldier and solid guy during his time here. Just because his agent is an idiot doesn't mean he's going to be causing locker room problems.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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Do we have reason to think he'd be such a malcontent that that would all be an issue? I've yet to see a 'pay me' quote from him and he seems like he's been a good soldier and solid guy during his time here. Just because his agent is an idiot doesn't mean he's going to be causing locker room problems.
If he thinks we blocked him from $35 million guaranteed? Perhaps he'd rise above and be a good guy. My guess is he'd let his agent carry the water. "Malcom had an offer of a $55 million contract, but the Patriots refused to trade him even for a first round pick and they refused to match the offer, which is what he's worth. Knowing there is that kind of money out there, and we know that it will be next year as well, he owes it to his family to minimize the risk of injury and to play the minimum six games."
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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Have to think it's going to be a massive difference for him facing Kelvin Benjamin, Julio Jones and Mike Evans for six games per year versus an older Brandon Marshall, with a QB who can't throw him the ball; Woods/Goodwin; and Landry/Parker/Stills.
I wouldn't assume that he'll be used that way. The Saints could use him more like the Pats did and Revis beforehand - covering shorter, possession oriented receivers without help and therefore allowing teams to double the Julios, Evans, and Benjamins of the world.

Butler is a very good player. I won't be heartbroken if we lose him as long as the draft pick compensation is right but lets not sell him short just because he might be leaving.
 

joe dokes

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I think his main leverage is the difficulty of being a malcontent.

If the Saints are prepared to give him a lifetime of security in a contract but aren't willing to give pick number 11, it does put the Patriots in a difficult situation.

I'm not sure we have seen that situation too often since the RFA in its current form has been around. If he has $35m on the table or something in guarantee, and the Patriots and Saints can't work out a deal and the Saints won't do it as an offer sheet but will make an offer of say, 32 and something else, he's still going to perceive it as the Patriots blocking him from life altering security and injury protection.

He could just as easily look at it as the Saints dicking around and playing him if they never had any intent to surrender the #11 they have to surrender if they made the offer official. "Either you want me or you don't." Patriots have already said, "we're ready to pay you almost $4M, no strings attached, just sign here." The Saints are saying, "we're prepared to pay you [a lot more] but only if some other stuff happens. . ." Butler is ready to sign the offer sheet that the Saints won't produce.

I think the Saints are the ones in the difficult position, a they are the ones attaching the strings. The Patriots are saying, "No, Malcolm, we value you at the #11 that God intended."

Or at least Butler could see it that way.
 

BigJimEd

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What harm is it to the Saints in that situation since he wouldn't be going there?

But I'm sure NO has already talked to Butler's agent about this. In that situation, isn't it likely that all parties are aware the Saints aren't willing to give up 11 but are hoping to make a trade?
 

j44thor

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I'm surprised the owners and nflpa haven't fixed what is a severely flawed RFA system.

Why is it that a really good team can sign an RFA at a cost of a late first round pick yet a bad team that could probably use the RFA has to cough up a significantly better asset in a high draft pick. Difference between the 30th pick and top 10 pick in the first round is probably several mid round picks and that might not even get it done.

Seems like a very inequitable system.
 

Toe Nash

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If Malcolm Butler plays under the tender next year he'd have earned $5.44 million. So, should Derek Carr force his way out of Oakland to get paid faster? Should every draft pick who outperforms his contract force their way out?
Probably. If you're holding out you're not actively getting CTE and you might get a bunch of money guaranteed

I agree with all of this, but I think Butler's lack of size keeps him out of the elite category as well. He didn't match up to the AJ Greens and Demaryius Thomases. If a team signs him to a huge deal and then expects him to lock down Julio Jones and Alshon Jeffery, they're probably not going to be happy.

Of course, the Patriots have Gilmore now, who can match up to those guys, so arguably Butler has more value to them than to most other teams. That would be a pretty sweet one-two punch if they can work something out.
Was this because he can't cover AJ Green (who can?) or because they preferred to have him handle the #2 by himself and give safety help to whoever's on Green? I feel like a guy can still be elite even if he's not always covering the #1 by himself.
 
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InstaFace

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If he thinks we blocked him from $35 million guaranteed? Perhaps he'd rise above and be a good guy. My guess is he'd let his agent carry the water. "Malcom had an offer of a $55 million contract, but the Patriots refused to trade him even for a first round pick and they refused to match the offer, which is what he's worth. Knowing there is that kind of money out there, and we know that it will be next year as well, he owes it to his family to minimize the risk of injury and to play the minimum six games."
If the Patriots refuse to match an offer made to an RFA, which the RFA has signed, then the player receives that offer and the Pats get the signing team's first rounder. That's how it works. There is no situation where your hypothetical statement from the agent could be true. Either (1) Butler doesn't get an attractive offer, (2) he gets an implicit one and the Pats trade him for something less than #11 after he signs the $3.9 QO, or (3) a team makes the RFA offer, Butler signs, the Pats don't match, and he goes to the offering team in exchange for a first-rounder.
 

DJnVa

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If he thinks we blocked him from $35 million guaranteed? Perhaps he'd rise above and be a good guy. My guess is he'd let his agent carry the water. "Malcom had an offer of a $55 million contract, but the Patriots refused to trade him even for a first round pick and they refused to match the offer, which is what he's worth. Knowing there is that kind of money out there, and we know that it will be next year as well, he owes it to his family to minimize the risk of injury and to play the minimum six games."
If they don't match the offer, he signs with the team that offered it...
 

CoolPapaLaSchelle

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If the Patriots refuse to match an offer made to an RFA, which the RFA has signed, then the player receives that offer and the Pats get the signing team's first rounder. That's how it works. There is no situation where your hypothetical statement from the agent could be true. Either (1) Butler doesn't get an attractive offer, (2) he gets an implicit one and the Pats trade him for something less than #11 after he signs the $3.9 QO, or (3) a team makes the RFA offer, Butler signs, the Pats don't match, and he goes to the offering team in exchange for a first-rounder.


So, "3 Offers...Malcolm go?"
 

DJnVa

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Eh? Is this for me?

I see now that we gave the same answer. I'm guessing you're not aware that if I started a reply before you posted I'm not going to see your post. You know that right?

So, for instance, if I started to respond to him and, say, my phone rang and I handled that, then finished my post, yours would show up before mine.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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If the Patriots refuse to match an offer made to an RFA, which the RFA has signed, then the player receives that offer and the Pats get the signing team's first rounder. That's how it works. There is no situation where your hypothetical statement from the agent could be true. Either (1) Butler doesn't get an attractive offer, (2) he gets an implicit one and the Pats trade him for something less than #11 after he signs the $3.9 QO, or (3) a team makes the RFA offer, Butler signs, the Pats don't match, and he goes to the offering team in exchange for a first-rounder.
If they don't match the offer, he signs with the team that offered it...
I'm not sure whether this is a case of people just pulling fragments out of an overall bigger point I made to say, "you're wrong," or if I was really unclear.

I'm talking about a situation in which the Saints tell him what they will give him if they can work out a trade for 31 (which they would have to in order to get him to sign the tender), but the Patriots won't give him the same. I wasn't talking about an offer sheet.

In the end, I don't think any of this matters. I think there is already essentially a deal worked out subject to Butler visiting the Saints. I think he's as good as gone, and probably for 31 and hopefully for something in addition.

But to reiterate, if the Saints are prepared to trade 31 for Butler and extend him they need to make him an offer to get him to sign. If that offer is something the Patriots would not agree to, it's a very bad situation and it's easy for us to be tough on the internet and say, "tough shit, Malcom," but in the end I think the Patriots would be pragmatic and would take 31. Unless they think 31 is worse than 6 weeks of Butler.
 

Archer1979

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Hypothetically, say NO makes an offer and NE matches. NE gets another year out of Butler. Are they entitled to a comp pick next year if/when Butler goes elsewhere as a FA?
 

DJnVa

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I think you were unclear, but no worries. Saying "refused to match the offer" I think we took that to me a legit offer, not the Saints blowing smoke.
 

pappymojo

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I think DDB's hypothetical is that, without making an actual offer that the Patriots can match or refuse, the Saints tell Butler they will sign him for $55 million if the Patriots trade Butler to them.

In that scenario, tough shit. The Saints don't get to dictate trade value to the Patriots via their negotiations with the player.
 

InstaFace

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So, "3 Offers...Malcolm go?"
Well, jokes aside, the nice thing about the RFA system is that accounting for the value of a first-round pick in making an offer (to a high-quality RFA) means teams will lower the size of their offers down to the point where they would (probably) be reasonable contract offers for the Pats to take. There's disincentives all up and down the system, and they're pretty much all to the rights-holding team's benefit.

I see now that we gave the same answer. I'm guessing you're not aware that if I started a reply before you posted I'm not going to see your post. You know that right?
Lighten up, Dawg. The number of times I'm both right and first are vanishingly small.
 

DJnVa

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Hypothetically, say NO makes an offer and NE matches. NE gets another year out of Butler. Are they entitled to a comp pick next year if/when Butler goes elsewhere as a FA?
I doubt the Saints are going to make a 1 year offer to him.
 
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bankshot1

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Not being an expert in the CBA and whats allowed/not allowed in contract negotiations (for example the Butler RFA/Saints/Pats menage a trois) here's a 3-part question for those that may know. (Otto?)

Lets assume the Pats want to accept a Saints offer of 4/50. But the offer has a guarantee of $35 m, and a bonus of $25M. Do the Pats have to accept a contract offer structure in all regards they think is poorly structured or presents other real practical problems?

And if the contract structure is so onerous the Pats can't accept, do the Saints have the right to restructure after the Pats are unable to match, and restructure almost immediately? Or is there a time period, (for example 1 year?) that these contracts are sacrosanct, and can't be reworked?

Similarly if the Pats match, are they locked into the contract for some specific time period, before they rework it?
 

InstaFace

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I'm not sure whether this is a case of people just pulling fragments out of an overall bigger point I made to say, "you're wrong," or if I was really unclear.

I'm talking about a situation in which the Saints tell him what they will give him if they can work out a trade for 31 (which they would have to in order to get him to sign the tender), but the Patriots won't give him the same. I wasn't talking about an offer sheet.
(nitpick: I think you mean #32, as the Falcons have #31)

Firstly, I was responding to what I thought was the main thrust of your scenario, rather than just taking something out of context. But thank you for clarifying.

If the Saints make an implicit offer - telling him "sign your QO, we've worked out a trade with BB, and once acquired we'd like you to offer you X, will you take X?" - then the whole thing is kinda Bayesian from the perspective of the Patriots. The Patriots would probably have discussions with Butler about whether they'd be willing to offer him X, and given the discounting necessary to account for sending #32 back, X would probably be a fair offer for all sides. But suppose they think otherwise; then what the Patriots have proposed to them is, they have Butler on $3.9/1 fully guaranteed, which is a below-market asset worth roughly $10M in net value, not to mention an excellent way to spend cap money and roster space. Regardless of what the Saints intend to do once they acquire him, the choice for BB is, "what is a fair value for that asset?", and he might well conclude that the answer is well above what he paid for Cooks (who while a good WR is probably not as good as Butler is a CB, at least in my opinion).

I don't see any reason why Belichick would look at that situation and decide the best way to proceed is to take a trade that doesn't fully value the asset he's giving up. You say he'd need to consider the possibility that Butler would hold out if Belichick refused a trade for something below Butler's market value as-signed. I think that a holdout would be extremely unlikely for a couple of reasons:

1) Every game he sits, he loses a game check worth a fully guaranteed pro-rated amount of that $3.91, roughly $250k. That is meaningful money to him.

2) While waiting for his UFA status certainly poses risk, he maintains the same upside because he's hitting the truly open market at the earliest possible age for him. Any dollars he'd have lost by not playing under the Saints' offer could easily be recouped by a decent year on the field in 2017 - and perhaps exceeded.

3) His value also goes up with the generally high rate of increase in the cap, and the sparse number of pro bowl level players who actually hit UFA, especially at a premium position such as CB.

4) Meanwhile, sitting might well turn off plenty of suitors who would otherwise bid up his value to that amount. He'd be cutting off his nose to spite his face. Nobody is going to believe that the problem in this relationship is the Patriots, given how they run their organization in general (or at least, that Belichick deserves a majority of the fault). Several teams might reasonably think they were getting a malcontent.

5) Generally, holdouts are trying to force a team to sign them long-term, rather than punish their current team for not trading them. From Emmitt Smith to Logan Mankins, that's been the desired (And often achieved) outcome of an established, star or near-star-level player holding out. The team who is initially pissed off from being held out on, ends up being the one happy, because they get the star back on a long term deal. Butler would be trying to have the team he's holding out on remain pissed off, and just tactically that strikes me as a gambit less likely to work.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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I think you were unclear,
You and Mrs. DDB, that's for sure.

I don't think it would be the Saints blowing smoke. I think in order to get a trade done, they need to make him an offer so that he signs his tender and presumably he would shop that offer back to the Patriots (or even other teams if any have expressed an interest in potentially giving up their first).

The fact that he's taking a visit I think is a good indication that they have some idea what the Saints would pay him, and if he's willing to play for that instead of for $3.91m, at that point the ball is in another team's court to pay him the same (or something close) or it's in the Saints' court to make a trade offer to the Patriots if they are unwilling to give up number 11. I think that puts the Patriots in a tough spot.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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I don't see any reason why Belichick would look at that situation and decide the best way to proceed is to take a trade that doesn't fully value the asset he's giving up. You say he'd need to consider the possibility that Butler would hold out if Belichick refused a trade for something below Butler's market value as-signed. I think that a holdout would be extremely unlikely for a couple of reasons:
Yeah, I agree with much of what you wrote. My original point was that to the extent Butler has leverage at all to force the Patriots to get a deal done for something less than 11, it's discontent.

One important factor is that I think Belichick would be forced to decide based solely on a prediction whether Butler will or won't hold out. It's a threat the agent has in his back pocket if he wants to try to use it, but in the end, the timing will likely be that the Patriots have to decide "is he bluffing." If 32 is on the table, it's a tough game of chicken.

The other thing the Patriots need to consider is that another team could come out of the woodwork. You can play hardball and demand 11 and make decisions accordingly only to have the Texans or Steelers show up in April. 25 or 30 is better than 32, but the point is that at the moment the Patriots don't know what they don't know.

Anyway, it's an interesting discussion, but again my guess is that a deal is already pretty much in place and it's going to be for 32 and we're going to be disappointed. Hopefully, they get a later round pick too.
 

Archer1979

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I doubt the Saints are going to make a 1 year offer to him.
Understood. Got my scenarios scrambled. Let's try this, NO doesn't bite on a trade/signing. Butler signs the one year tender from NE and walks next year as a UFA. NE gets one more year out of Butler plus a comp pick. That's probably the default setting on these negotiations right now.
 

Harry Hooper

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I caught a bit of Bertrand and Zolak chatting with a sports insurance guy on this morning. He said that Butler could buy an insurance policy for something like $250K for the coming season that would pay out $20 million (tax free) if he suffered a career-ending injury.
 

ZMart100

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Why should the Patriots discuss a trade until after Butler signs the RFA tender? I see no upside for the team in agreeing that they don't have to get the #11 pick back before it is actually off the table. Make the Saints (or whoeverelse is interested) explain to Butler why they value him, but not enough to give up their first round pick.
 

NortheasternPJ

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I caught a bit of Bertrand and Zolak chatting with a sports insurance guy on this morning. He said that Butler could buy an insurance policy for something like $250K for the coming season that would pay out $20 million (tax free) if he suffered a career-ending injury.
The most important part of that was his agent told him to buy it and Butler's refusing to do that.

I've been all over Butlers agent but it maybe both him and his agent being hard asses.

A bit off topic but he also said that NCCA athletes get it for free and only have to pay it back if they make the pros.
 

Koufax

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Why should the Patriots discuss a trade until after Butler signs the RFA tender? I see no upside for the team in agreeing that they don't have to get the #11 pick back before it is actually off the table. Make the Saints (or whoeverelse is interested) explain to Butler why they value him, but not enough to give up their first round pick.
Not only that, but have them explain that by offering a less valuable pick to NE they are effectively asking NE to subsidize the payout to a departing player whom the want to keep. Who does that?
 

Harry Hooper

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The most important part of that was his agent told him to buy it and Butler's refusing to do that.

I've been all over Butlers agent but it maybe both him and his agent being hard asses.
True, for all we know his agent recommended Butler sign the multlyear offer the Pats made before last season.
 

Ed Hillel

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A bit off topic but he also said that NCCA athletes get it for free and only have to pay it back if they make the pros.
Hrmmmm, seems dubious, especially knowing insurance companies and NCAA. Gronk had to pay for his, I believe. He chose the draft over 4 million guaranteed to retire, which ended up ok for us.
Why should the Patriots discuss a trade until after Butler signs the RFA tender?
Possibly because they've (very naughtily) already discussed the trade last week and BB is just honoring his end of the deal.
 

pappymojo

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Bolded unlikely to happen

Coach Bill Belichick historically has had a high level of sensitivity regarding trade discussions involving a player who is subject to a tender offer that has not yet been signed. Per a source with knowledge of the situation, Butler’s decision not to sign his tender kept the Patriots and Saints from seriously exploring the prospect of adding Butler to the deal.

Eight years ago, Belichick made clear his disdain for discussing trades of players who have not yet signed tender offers, regarding the possibility of acquiring former-and-present Panthers defensive end Julius Peppers.

There’s no trade talks going on with Carolina,” Belichick said at the time. “They don’t have a signed contract. They can’t talk about trading a player that isn’t signed.”

When it comes to the playing rules, Belichick has a habit of interpreting and applying them aggressively. When it comes to CBA provisions regarding tender offers, Belichick has been very careful not to give the NFL Players Association any ammunition for arguing that the tender was not made with a good-faith intention to employe the player at the amount of the tender for the upcoming season.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2017/03/12/unsigned-tender-kept-malcolm-butler-out-of-brandin-cooks-talks/
Sorry to reply to an old post, but can someone clarify if it is, in fact, against the league rules for Belichick and Payton to have previously or to currently discuss trade scenarios for Butler while he is unsigned? Or is that just Belichick's personal operating standards?

I just see so many posts where people say "I'm sure they discussed his trade value already."
 

edmunddantes

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Hrmmmm, seems dubious, especially knowing insurance companies and NCAA. Gronk had to pay for his, I believe. He chose the draft over 4 million guaranteed to retire, which ended up ok for us.
Possibly because they've (very naughtily) already discussed the trade last week and BB is just honoring his end of the deal.
Looks like a loan from the NCAA website, not sure where people get you don't have to pay for it.

Premium financing
Student-athletes approved for this program are automatically eligible for a loan, if necessary, through U.S. Bank, N.A., Sports Division, in Nashville, TN. The interest rate is very competitive and a co-signer is not required. The student-athlete is obligated to repay the loan in full when any of the following occurs: (1) the student-athlete signs a professional contract, (2) the disability benefits becomes available due to a covered injury or sickness or (3) the coverage is no longer in effect and the loan note matures.