It WAS amazing! I was curious of the actual number of key plays the Pats HAD TO HAVE to win and came up with the following. We all have our thoughts on which were most important but this list might have some value as a basic foundation moving forward on this discussion. For example, I left out the great Edelman catch since, as pointed out, this was not absolutely critical and happened on a first and 10. The coin toss was also pretty important but...The series of things that had to go right for the Patriots to win that game, starting around the fourth down conversion, is just amazing to contemplate more than 2 weeks late
He fell down (with the ball in the air) on a later 2nd & 10, the play before the fishmonger's catch. Still clutch of course.7. The third and 11 catch by Mitchell where he falls down for a first down
I think you have to add the play after the holding penalty on Long, when Butler blanketed Gabriel, to the must have list. That play could have easily put them back in FG range and made winning substantially harder. I would also add the last two regulation TDs themselves.It WAS amazing! I was curious of the actual number of key plays the Pats HAD TO HAVE to win and came up with the following. We all have our thoughts on which were most important but this list might have some value as a basic foundation moving forward on this discussion. For example, I left out the great Edelman catch since, as pointed out, this was not absolutely critical and happened on a first and 10. The coin toss was also pretty important but...
1. Down 28-3, 4th and 3 pass to Amendola on the left sideline for 17 yards
2. The Brady run on 3rd and 8 for 15 yards
3. The defensive stop after the fubbed onside kick
4. The great over the shoulder catch by Patrick Chung on the ensuing punt, which could easily have been fumbled
5. The FG drive
6. The Hightower strip sack on the ensuing Falcon drive
7. The third and 11 catch by Mitchell where he falls down for a first down
8. Two point conversion direct snap to White
9. Flowers sack after the big gains by Freemand and the great Julio Jones catch
10. Holding penalty on Long rush to take them out of FG range
11. 3rd and 10 pass to Hogan on the right sideline for a first down on the tying drive
12. Two point conversion to Amendola
I suppose none of the overtime winning drive plays were absolutely needed like the above but the 3 great and perfectly placed passes from Brady to Amendola, Hogan and Edelman showcased a lot of what makes Brady the greatest ever on just the one drive: fearlessness, accurate passing, and leadership
As did the Patriots offensive players. Which is why I don't necessarily buy into the theory that they were gassed. They should have been equally as gassed. Think about receivers vs D-backs. Every time a receiver runs 20 yards downfield, there is a d-back running right along with them (Falcons were in man coverage most of the game)."Gassed" means tired. The ATL defense was tired. They played the equivalent of 2 football games worth of plays in the Super Bowl. Not sure how that reflects some anti-Patriot agenda.
Yeah I certainly don't mean it as a slight against the Patriots or how incredible Brady was on the last several drives or anything."Gassed" means tired. The ATL defense was tired. They played the equivalent of 2 football games worth of plays in the Super Bowl. Not sure how that reflects some anti-Patriot agenda.
BB replaced the strength/conditioning last year after they were the most injured team. There's a great twitter feed @ManGamesLostNFL that charts out how many games each team lost to injury. In 2016, Pats and Falcons were among the healthiest.Isn't it possible that the Patriots were better conditioned, and thus they weren't as tired at the end of 90+ plays?
If bubble size represents the quality of players lost (in AV), I guess most of NE's bubble size owes to Gronk.BB replaced the strength/conditioning last year after they were the most injured team. There's a great twitter feed @ManGamesLostNFL that charts out how many games each team lost to injury. In 2016, Pats and Falcons were among the healthiest.
View attachment 14573
Because playing defense front (DL or LB) is more exhausting than playing OL. That's as close to a truism as you're likely to find; I'd welcome a qualified dissenting opinion, but a quick Google search revealed plenty of "DL takes more energy" hits, and none of the inverse.As did the Patriots offensive players. Which is why I don't necessarily buy into the theory that they were gassed. They should have been equally as gassed. Think about receivers vs D-backs. Every time a receiver runs 20 yards downfield, there is a d-back running right along with them (Falcons were in man coverage most of the game).
I also think one could argue that the Pats O-line should have been more tired than the Falcons D-line.Put it this way...the Pats offensive line did not rotate. All 5 were in for every play. The Falcons defensive line was rotating in and out throughout the game.
Maybe it factors in Vollmer?If bubble size represents the quality of players lost (in AV), I guess most of NE's bubble size owes to Gronk.
Who were the all-pros that KC and Dallas lost, though? Did they count Romo as being "injured" the full year?
That's a great point, and I can't come up with a solid argument that is nothing but opinion based on what I have experienced. I played 8 years of football growing up, both as an offensive lineman (guard) and linebacker. During that time, I found that being a guard was more mentally difficult, as I had to think about who I was supposed to block on every play. It is not always easy. As a linebacker, there isn't as much thinking. See the ball, chase the ball. I know it isn't that simple, but for me it was. Physically, playing guard can be challenging as well. On pulling plays, you have to get out of your stance and fly down the line as fast as you can to get in front of the running back. Then you have to turn down field and make your block. That type of play can be a 15-20 yard sprint. Not easy for a fat kid like me. On running plays, the guy you are blocking may not be right in front of you. And once you find that guy, you are fighting with him just as much as he is fighting with you. As a linebacker, I think the most physically demanding part was the hits. Many plays were a 3-5 yard sprint to the ball. When in pass cover, way easier as I just had to get into my zone, no sprint unless my guy caught the ball.Because playing defense front (DL or LB) is more exhausting than playing OL. That's as close to a truism as you're likely to find; I'd welcome a qualified dissenting opinion, but a quick Google search revealed plenty of "DL takes more energy" hits, and none of the inverse.
Two points: 1) the Patriots OL were hardly run blocking at all. On pass protection reps, the defensive team is doing a lot more running than the offense. 2) In coverage, the Falcons were pretty heavy man-to-man, which is a lot more running than zone, as you note.That's a great point, and I can't come up with a solid argument that is nothing but opinion based on what I have experienced. I played 8 years of football growing up, both as an offensive lineman (guard) and linebacker. During that time, I found that being a guard was more mentally difficult, as I had to think about who I was supposed to block on every play. It is not always easy. As a linebacker, there isn't as much thinking. See the ball, chase the ball. I know it isn't that simple, but for me it was. Physically, playing guard can be challenging as well. On pulling plays, you have to get out of your stance and fly down the line as fast as you can to get in front of the running back. Then you have to turn down field and make your block. That type of play can be a 15-20 yard sprint. Not easy for a fat kid like me. On running plays, the guy you are blocking may not be right in front of you. And once you find that guy, you are fighting with him just as much as he is fighting with you. As a linebacker, I think the most physically demanding part was the hits. Many plays were a 3-5 yard sprint to the ball. When in pass cover, way easier as I just had to get into my zone, no sprint unless my guy caught the ball.
I have also coached football for several years, from grades 6-8 and up through high school (total of 7 years coaching). And I never found that the defensive lineman were any more tired than the offensive lineman. Both sides are fighting each other just as hard in the trench.
Like I said, all this is really just anecdotal based on my experiences.
The reason Edelman's catch play was absolutely critical was because, first, Alford could have intercepted it outright, and, second, if Julian hadn't gotten himself to the ball so insanely fast after Alford's tip, Allen and Neal were right there to possibly intercept it.It WAS amazing! I was curious of the actual number of key plays the Pats HAD TO HAVE to win and came up with the following. We all have our thoughts on which were most important but this list might have some value as a basic foundation moving forward on this discussion. For example, I left out the great Edelman catch since, as pointed out, this was not absolutely critical and happened on a first and 10. The coin toss was also pretty important but...
1. Down 28-3, 4th and 3 pass to Amendola on the left sideline for 17 yards
2. The Brady run on 3rd and 8 for 15 yards
3. The defensive stop after the fubbed onside kick
4. The great over the shoulder catch by Patrick Chung on the ensuing punt, which could easily have been fumbled
5. The FG drive
6. The Hightower strip sack on the ensuing Falcon drive
7. The third and 11 catch by Mitchell where he falls down for a first down
8. Two point conversion direct snap to White
9. Flowers sack after the big gains by Freemand and the great Julio Jones catch
10. Holding penalty on Long rush to take them out of FG range
11. 3rd and 10 pass to Hogan on the right sideline for a first down on the tying drive
12. Two point conversion to Amendola
I suppose none of the overtime winning drive plays were absolutely needed like the above but the 3 great and perfectly placed passes from Brady to Amendola, Hogan and Edelman showcased a lot of what makes Brady the greatest ever on just the one drive: fearlessness, accurate passing, and leadership
Yup no question on both points.Two points: 1) the Patriots OL were hardly run blocking at all. On pass protection reps, the defensive team is doing a lot more running than the offense. 2) In coverage, the Falcons were pretty heavy man-to-man, which is a lot more running than zone, as you note.
https://www.mangameslost.com/about/frequently-asked-questions/Maybe it factors in Vollmer?
Plus the Games lost to the PUP guys?
Does a suspension get counted? (TB and Nink)
Stipulated for the sake of this argument. What's to be concluded from "gassed"?Because playing defense front (DL or LB) is more exhausting than playing OL. That's as close to a truism as you're likely to find; I'd welcome a qualified dissenting opinion, but a quick Google search revealed plenty of "DL takes more energy" hits, and none of the inverse.
Bingo. Which is another way of saying that defense is not very good. Which the regular season told us.Saying a side got gassed is another way of saying that the success of their opponents accelerated over time, due to their own increasing inability to keep up or make plays. Missed a beat, lost the rhythm, and nothing's falling into place. Only missed by a fraction, slipped a little off their pace.
That's an interesting comparison. Thank you.I guess when I think of gassed I think of the 2006 AFCCG when the D, which was literally sick and tired, played great in the first half then got trampled in the second half. The Pats didn't gash Atlanta up and down the field like the Colts did in 2006. So it was the difference between plays barely going Atlanta's way to barely going the Pats way
I think Hogan would have been the goat. He probably needed to release to avoid a penalty but my guess is the play design is intended for him to get a bit more of the cornerback than he did. Collins made a heck of play, though. A second year guy almost made a potentially championship winning tackle depending on what the Patriots do after the penalty.If Amendola had been stopped short and they failed to convert the 2 pointer after the penalty, I would have hated Danny for a few years at least for not diving in low. Hard for corners to tackle with their knees.
But he made it and I Lurrrrv him soooo muchly
They are tired...Right Now?Saying a side got gassed is another way of saying that the success of their opponents accelerated over time, due to their own increasing inability to keep up or make plays. Missed a beat, lost the rhythm, and nothing's falling into place. Only missed by a fraction, slipped a little off their pace..
Thank you, I was reading this thread and wondered if anyone else caught it. (Hat-tip, InstaFace)They are tired...Right Now?
Plus there's always a random possibility of a defensive penalty or something that would give the Pats an open play on the final play.I don't think Lewis had a real chance to score because he probably would have outraced his blockers at some point but I definitely think he could have soiled some underwear had he not gotten chased down from behind and hurt himself. There was definitely a cutback opportunity if he had been able to get past the initial wave.
BBTL: Come for the entitled attitudes, stay for the Van Halen lyrics.Thank you, I was reading this thread and wondered if anyone else caught it. (Hat-tip, InstaFace)
Game can't end on a penalty, so yes, I think the free kick would have been in play.Just watching the end of the game again, I had a couple of thoughts.
- Buck mentions Slater got cleared out on the fair catch play near the end of regulation, specifically saying something like "no flag though". I'm assuming that a free kick would still be in play if a penalty was called? A personal foul call would have set up a 60 yard FG ayyempt with a Falcon returner no doubt waiting in front of the goal posts for the chance to run back anything short. Thatight literally have been the most exciting play in SB history.
It helped that after Atlanta went up 28-3, they, Atlanta, never had a possession that lasted longer than about 2 minutes 15 seconds. They had four possessions and one of them of course ended quickly with the Hightower strip sack and Alan Branch recovery. Any Atlanta drive of even five minutes would have made it all the more improbable that the Pats win.Rewatching the game, the clock management amazes me. Atlanta went up 28-3 with 8:31 in the third. It took us more than 6 minutes to get the TD that made it 28-9. So, 17 minutes left and we are down three scores. Not only did we make up the gap, but (a) the first of our drives ate up more than 5 minutes, and resulted in only a FG; (b) we tied it with almost a minute to spare; and (c) we ended the game with two timeouts still unused. The latter seems particularly crazy to me.