Lynn McGlothen. One of the first players (with Moret) who I followed from the low minors. I thought he would be the new Bob Gibson and I was crushed when he was traded for Reggie Cleveland or Rick Wise (can't remember which). He had a couple of good seasons with the Cards and quickly faded out. He died tragically in a trailer fire if I recall correctly.
Your Red Sox Blind Spot
- Thread starter The Talented Allen Ripley
- Start date
Tony Graffanino. Even after his error in the 2005 ALDS that pretty much sealed our fate in that series, I loved the guy. I knew his 2005 season was pretty much a career year, but I hated it when we placed him on waivers.
I also had some love for Mark Loretta, who came right after Tony. I still remember his walkoff against the M's on Patriot's Day.
I also had some love for Mark Loretta, who came right after Tony. I still remember his walkoff against the M's on Patriot's Day.
Judging from the chatter around here during this year's NLDS, I'm one of few Sox fans who doesn't harbor a grudge against Carl Crawford and indeed is still willing to defend him.
Not sure if this counts, but all of my buddies still give me shit about my defense of all things JD Drew. The majority of fans wrote him off before he even put the uniform on (Boras client, the Bob Ryan/Theo interview, etc) based on the media's view of him. Fans, or at least my friends, would always get on his case whenever he didn't come through (which by law of averages happens to anyone that isnt Ortiz) and disregarded/ignored the times he did something good or clutch. Sure everyone rememebers the grand slam in game 6 of 2007, but conventionely forgets the multi-clutch performance in the 2008 ALDS and ALCS. I still have to remind people that he actually had a good Red Sox career.
Coco Crisp. I really thought he was going to be a superstar CF when the Sox acquired him in 2006. His defense in 2007 was seriously the best I've ever seen from a Sox centerfielder. (Bradley last year was pretty close).
Kinda funny now that we were complaining about his 700(ish) OPS bat in CF. If JBJ ever hit like 2006-2007 Coco this board would be delighted. Of course, that's pretty close to league average offense at CF now; whereas back then it was pretty bad.
Kinda funny now that we were complaining about his 700(ish) OPS bat in CF. If JBJ ever hit like 2006-2007 Coco this board would be delighted. Of course, that's pretty close to league average offense at CF now; whereas back then it was pretty bad.
Todd Walker. I was convinced that he was going to build on his outstanding 2003, and I always felt that he was under appreciated.
He was mentioned before, but in 1977 Butch Hobson hit 30 HRS and HE WAS THE #8 HITTER! For some reason I can still never get that out of my head and he must have been a much better player than that.
He was easily almost as good as Mike Schmidt, dammit. Pay no attention to the .300 OBP, the 162/27 K/BB ratio, the bad throws. Hey, this was before the .899 fielding percentage season, so you could STILL make an argument he was still a pretty decent defensive 3B.
He finished 23rd in the MVP voting in '77, behind RICK FUCKING BURLESON OF ALL PEOPLE. That is STILL a travesty.
He was easily almost as good as Mike Schmidt, dammit. Pay no attention to the .300 OBP, the 162/27 K/BB ratio, the bad throws. Hey, this was before the .899 fielding percentage season, so you could STILL make an argument he was still a pretty decent defensive 3B.
He finished 23rd in the MVP voting in '77, behind RICK FUCKING BURLESON OF ALL PEOPLE. That is STILL a travesty.
I've always had a soft spot for the veteran pitcher using smoke and mirrors to hold on, and Frank Castillo and John Burkett were no exceptions to that rule.
By my memory, John Burkett really manned up in the second half in 2003 and held down the fort like a hero in Game 6 vs the MFY, when in reality he was pretty much the same crappy pitcher all year except for June. He was relieved in the 4th inning of Game 6 having turned a 4-0 Sox lead into a 5-4 MFY lead. I'm figuratively crediting him for only taking a gas can and not a tanker truck to the 2003 Sox season.
edit: BH Kim is a tremendous example of a career that many people, including Kim himself, conspired to screw up. There was a ton of talent in that arm - he's the only submarine power pitcher of the last 90 years.
By my memory, John Burkett really manned up in the second half in 2003 and held down the fort like a hero in Game 6 vs the MFY, when in reality he was pretty much the same crappy pitcher all year except for June. He was relieved in the 4th inning of Game 6 having turned a 4-0 Sox lead into a 5-4 MFY lead. I'm figuratively crediting him for only taking a gas can and not a tanker truck to the 2003 Sox season.
edit: BH Kim is a tremendous example of a career that many people, including Kim himself, conspired to screw up. There was a ton of talent in that arm - he's the only submarine power pitcher of the last 90 years.
pokey_reese said:
There's some people in Times Square that wish Shea Hillenbrand had made them blind.
I still hate that guy, and there should be a thread about the guy you always hated.
I don't know if it qualifies, but Dan Duquette, Joe Kerrigan, Carl Everett, and BK Kim are guys I defend because a ton of Sox fans are unduly hard on them.
I swear I can remember Gammo writing in 1981 or so that Quinones fielded like Luis Aparicio and hit like Frank Robinson.Doctor G said:
[Not a joke. By me anyway.]
Spacemans Bong said:
I've got a soft spot for Burkett. In 2003, I was lucky enough to get seats for my then 8- and 10-year old sons in the front row, right next to the sox dugout. The boys spent most of the game groveling with the batboys and anybody who passed by to flip them a ball, and weren't having a ton of luck... until the 7th inning stretch when one of them went up to Burkett, standing at the corner of the dugout, and said "Hi Mr. Burkett, do you think you could please give me a ball?"
The look on his face was so genuine. I'm sure it's the first time a fan had ever called him Mr. Burkett, and it was a stretch when he was hearing much much worse. He actually said "What did you call me?", and my son repeated "Mr. Burkett, you're number 19 and you're a starting pitcher!"
Huge smile by Burkett, who grabbed four balls for my boys.
Also love that his nickname was "Sheets" because he ran the Red Sox NFL pool.
I believe to this day, and will continue to believe forever, that Devern Hansack should still be a valuable piece of the starting rotation. He's only 36.
I can't find anything official to link to, but I'm pretty sure he's a pitching coach for UMaine Farmington now.Buckner's Boots said:
Two World Series years come to mind.
I always had something for Joe Foy...but he only played 6 years in the majors.
I don't think I saw Bernie Carbo in this thread. Some of the greatest hits of all time...ended up switching teams 7 times in an 11-year career.
I always had something for Joe Foy...but he only played 6 years in the majors.
I don't think I saw Bernie Carbo in this thread. Some of the greatest hits of all time...ended up switching teams 7 times in an 11-year career.
Philip Jeff Frye said:
By far and away, I had the biggest blind spot when it came to "The Can"... An irrational and emotional desire to see him really shine. I wanted him to pitch game 7 of the '86 series so badly and have Hurst et al. come out of the pen. Who knows what could have been? I was dreaming of a 2 hit shutout and a place in Boston lore for all time. Oh well, we'll never know.
A distant second would be Phil Plantier and then Benziger closely behind in 3rd.
Huh, those guys are from the same era, which not surprisingly coincides with my season tickets from '86-'91... go figure.
No way. I live 30 miles from Farmington. I'll do some leg work and find out. I loved that guy.Laser Show said:
Edit: http://www.pawsoxheavy.com/2014/09/devern-hansack-is-my-neighbor.html
This is probably about as far from what the thread is about as you can get. You don't have a blind spot for Drew, your friends are just blind to how good he really was. That it's common says more about fans in general than anything else.YouDownWithOBP? said:
Of course, fans are a bit more savvy today than they were 4 or 5 years ago, so I wonder if Drew would be looked at more positively playing today than he was then.
I've been told mine is Stephen Drew. But it's everyone else who is blind. Why can they not see the light?
Like his brother, Stephen Drew was seriously underrated during his time in Boston. Even including his poor brief stint with the team in 2014 before being traded, you get a bat that is at least league average with plus defense at short. There's a lot of value there.
I thought I'd look at that in my own perverted way - which more than backs up that statement.
Without posting the data here, I looked at 3 categories of top-defensive shortstops, gleaned from some arbitrary sites. I only looked at career OPS+ to allow for occasional power, but payed attention to OBP as a better stat for shortstops. I didn't account for at bats when they fielded other positions, and I didn't account for number of ab's to create that average - which may have been a better approach):
Best Defensive SS's 2014:
Alexei Ramirez
Stephen Drew
Elvis Andrus
Yunel Escobar
Alcides Escobar
Pete Kozma
JJ Hardy
Troy Tulowitzky
Pedro Florimon
Aldrenton Simmons
AVG OBP: .316
AVG OPS+: 88
All Time Great Defensive SS's:
Ozzie Smith
Jimmy Rollins
Alan Trammel
Joe Tinker
Tony Fernandez
Dave Concepcion
Lou Boudreau
Mark Belanger
Luis Aparicio
Omar Vizquel
AVG OBP: .332
AVG OPS+: 93
AVERAGE FOR ALL THE ABOVE:
OBP: .324
OPS+: 91
Stephen Drew
AVG OBP: 322
AVG OPS+: 95
A Couple of Red Sox Shortsops:
Jose Iglesias (.325 / 85)
Alex Gonzalez (.290 / 79)
Orlando Cabrera (.311 / 83)
(Defensive SS's that clearly stand out offensively are: Tulowitzky, Yunel Escobar, Tony Fernandez, and Lou Boudreau)
I can post the data next to all the names if anyone wants it.
Without posting the data here, I looked at 3 categories of top-defensive shortstops, gleaned from some arbitrary sites. I only looked at career OPS+ to allow for occasional power, but payed attention to OBP as a better stat for shortstops. I didn't account for at bats when they fielded other positions, and I didn't account for number of ab's to create that average - which may have been a better approach):
Best Defensive SS's 2014:
Alexei Ramirez
Stephen Drew
Elvis Andrus
Yunel Escobar
Alcides Escobar
Pete Kozma
JJ Hardy
Troy Tulowitzky
Pedro Florimon
Aldrenton Simmons
AVG OBP: .316
AVG OPS+: 88
All Time Great Defensive SS's:
Ozzie Smith
Jimmy Rollins
Alan Trammel
Joe Tinker
Tony Fernandez
Dave Concepcion
Lou Boudreau
Mark Belanger
Luis Aparicio
Omar Vizquel
AVG OBP: .332
AVG OPS+: 93
AVERAGE FOR ALL THE ABOVE:
OBP: .324
OPS+: 91
Stephen Drew
AVG OBP: 322
AVG OPS+: 95
A Couple of Red Sox Shortsops:
Jose Iglesias (.325 / 85)
Alex Gonzalez (.290 / 79)
Orlando Cabrera (.311 / 83)
(Defensive SS's that clearly stand out offensively are: Tulowitzky, Yunel Escobar, Tony Fernandez, and Lou Boudreau)
I can post the data next to all the names if anyone wants it.
I remember where I heard this now. My brother was looking at playing ball there and mentioned it to me when he visited last summer.Buckner's Boots said:
Plympton91 said:
Seconded. I recall watching Yaz's last game in 1983 and hearing Ned and Monty discussing how promising the young Sox outfielders were, and that this was a "changing of the guard" moment. Houk emptied the bench, and the game-ending outfield consisted of Reid Nichols, Chico Walker, and Lee Graham.
Let me assure the SoSH youngsters that the Nichols-Walker-Graham outfield did not pass into legend
But I kept thinking Nichols was the one--he'd hit around .300 as a part-timer with doubles power. But he couldn't get any at-bats playing behind the Rice-Armas-Evans outfield (with Mike "Hit Man" Easler at DH). Even after he was traded (for Tim Lollar!) I assumed some other team would give him 500 at-bats and have a star on their hands. No dice. He was out of the league after the '87 season, only 28 years old.
I was at that game, and was worried someone was decapitated by that shot. The ball seemed like it was over the the wall before we could even take a breath to cheer.Snodgrass'Muff said:
I bought a Nixon jersey in 2003, partly because I loved rooting for the Dirt Dog and partly because I wasn't sure who else from that team would be around in 2 or 3 years. So I tended to overvalue his skills when the end was pretty clearly near.
There are some gems on the 1991-1993 rosters. I was just out of college and had some pocket money to see a lot of games (Plenty of good seats still available) and couldn't understand why they couldn't win with that roster.
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/teamstats/roster.php?y=1992&t=BOS
I had an irrational blind spot for the pitching staff including Tom Bolton and i kept waiting for Matt Young to turn it around.
one thing I remember is after a "decent" 1991 when they fired Joe Morgan he basically said this is not a good team ... I had taken that as sour grapes at the time....turns out he was right.
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/teamstats/roster.php?y=1992&t=BOS
I had an irrational blind spot for the pitching staff including Tom Bolton and i kept waiting for Matt Young to turn it around.
one thing I remember is after a "decent" 1991 when they fired Joe Morgan he basically said this is not a good team ... I had taken that as sour grapes at the time....turns out he was right.
No love for Nick Esasky? Back when homers and rbis mattered he put up a monster year for the Sox. I remember I thought this guy was going to be the next great find and then was never the same in Atlanta due to some illness...I think vertigo or something like that.
Troy O Leary was a pretty good find off waivers as well.
Troy O Leary was a pretty good find off waivers as well.
Yep .. It was vertigo .. if you have ever suffered from it it's easy to understand why playing baseball is impossible.Tyrone Biggums said:
Tomo Ohka
Bill Pulsipher (I think he went his first few outings without allowing a run in 2001)
Yamaico Navarro
Bill Pulsipher (I think he went his first few outings without allowing a run in 2001)
Yamaico Navarro
Assuming your OCab data refers to his short stint with the Sox, it would appear that he might be the collective SOSH answer to the OPgeoduck no quahog said:
I am much too young to have seen him play, but looking over the numbers it seems he got shafted by a whole bunch of teams with no idea how good he really was. 5.6 win player in 467 PAs as a rookie, and never again had more than 407 PAs in a season. Averaged 4.0 fWAR per 650 PAs for his career, 128 wRC+.geoduck no quahog said:
Just so we understand, Trot Nixon is not a blind spot, he was a good ballplayer. Creighton Gubanich is a blind spot.
Vaughn Eshelman is one for me. He was just so inexplicably good against the MFY. Also, I thought Eshel K would be a fantastic nickname.
As the thread starter, I vehemently disagree. Most of the posts here are simply listing a prospect the poster thought was going to be good, and then he failed. That's not a blind spot, that's a wrong predicition.brs3 said:
A blind spot is the continued overrating of a player despite ample evidence to refute that rating. There was a time when many Sox fans wouldn't have traded Trot Nixon for Sammy Sosa; that was a rumor that was very much in existence (even if the actual possibility of it was not), and anyone who wouldn't have made that trade was suffering from a blind spot.
The term blind spot can mean different things, for sure, but I thought I was pretty clear in what it meant for the purposes of this thread in my original post. I then jumped in to clarify a page or two later because people kept running with the hoo-boy-I-thought-this-failed-prospect-was-going-to-be-good meme, and that didn't work, so I gave up. These things sometimes take a life of their own, whatever.
The only reason I came back was because Nixon is one of the best examples in this thread of what I was looking for, so I don't want to see it dismissed.
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to put a finer point on that, it took me actually posting that I would prefer Nixon over Abreu (sometime in 05 or 06), getting rightfully slapped around, to realize that I did have a blind spot for the original Dirt Dog.
I still have the jersey though.
I still have the jersey though.
Spacemans Bong said:
Frank Castillo, good one. I don't remember where I got the nickname from (probably from here), but I would always reference that "my Uncle Frank" was pitching. It just seemed so unreasonable that he was a major league quality pitcher, about as reasonable as my uncle doing it. So Uncle Frank it was.
Plympton91 said:
Reid Nichols gave me a rise, as well. He stole 66 bases in High A in 1979 with an OBP of around .380. I was an early disciple of Bill James, and with a player that fast that could get on base, I was certain the Sox had their lead-off man for the next 10 years. This was before there was much news about prospects in the low minors, so I probably knew of him from a Gammons' tout. (With that kind of speed, I assumed he was an African-American, btw.) NIchols skipped AA ball, and played a decent/mediocre season at Pawtucket, and then was on the 25 man roster at the age of 22, where he remained, as a part time player for 5 years. I always expected he would break out and lead the league in SB's and runs scored. Yet he never even had a good month to the best of my recollection. In his 5 years with the Sox, he never was sent back down to the minors, even for a rehab. He just kind of held down the bench on a series of very average teams. He never showed much, but because of that one year of 66 SBs in A Ball, I kept on waiting and waiting until he was traded away.
The Allented Mr Ripley said:
OK, this was a greenlight for a blind spot I've taken a lot of shit for over the years.
Larry Andersen: Did what he was supposed to do (shored up a shaky middle pen), had great numbers in a limited time, and maybe the Sox don't get to the post-season without him.
Bagwell was not then a HOFer in waiting. There was a logjam at third; he was a good prospect/asset who brought a necessary piece for a tight stretch drive.
Subsequent performance proved how wrong this move was, but I've never faulted the trade as viciously as it's been portrayed ever since.
Andersen was not over-rated and did not under-perform (per Rip), but clearly the cost paid was too high.
My blind spot has been defending a trade that probably should have never been made.
Hammer me.
I thought Lavarnway was going to be a borderline all star based on the three or four times I saw him play in person.
At the time, I thought the Sox gave up on John Wasdin too soon. Though looking back now, he got the opportunity to get pounded for 350 IP with the Sox over 4 years.
The Allented Mr Ripley said:
Perhaps this would be easier if we were asked to identify players that *other* people (and managers) wildly over-valued, but who objectively sucked.
Or guys who we were personally convinced had no value, but actually had some.
Given that prospect love is so rampant on this website, why wouldn't "misjudging prospects" be an integral part of some people discussing their irrational ability to judge particular players objectively?
This is an interesting theory .. But seems contrary to my own personal impression of SoSH's collective opinion on prospects (if there is one)Philip Jeff Frye said:
I don't think the "prospect love" hereabouts is over the top at all. On the contrary I find it to be just the opposite. When rookies struggle - JBJ last year being an excellent example - people seem ready to give up after a couple hundred ABs .. IMO , a meaningful sample is closer to 500-600. Now, JBJ never really seemed to adjust .. In fact he seemed to regress as the year progressed .. But that doesn't mean the theory is wrong.
Perhaps we need a poll for this?
I suppose ones overall impression is strongly coloured by one's own view of prospects .. For me , I love watching young guys develop and that probably influences my impression.
The most legitimate criticism of the trade without applying hindsight is that there is a quote directly from Lou Gorman that he had never seen Jeff Bagwell play in person. And, it was also widely reported that Houston asked for Kevin Morton first, then Scott Cooper, and finally "settled for" Jeff Bagwell.leithbones said:
The criticism is not about looking back with hindsight. The criticism is the GM did not take the time to get the information he needed to make the best decision.
I vaguely remember that the Red Sox thought they were going to get more than just 2 months of Larry Anderson, but that he was declared a free agent by some technicality (was it the collusion settlement?) and if so that was another thing that Gorman should have been aware of and considered when making the trade, but was blindsided instead.