Would You Do It?

joyofsox · Jun 6, 2015

Yes.
Because of 2004.

brandonchristensen · Jun 6, 2015

100% yes every time

A bad season still has merit. Watching EdRo and Betts and X has been a ton of fun. Three trophies in a decade gives a lot of perspective.

Having said that, I still don't understand how it works. To have the favorite team going into two seasons (2012 and this year) only to underperform like CRAZY.

brienc · Jun 6, 2015

I would take the World Series title every time. And a couple of years of sucktitude will help restock the farm system. I'll sign up right now for 3 titles and 7 top ten draft picks every decade.

InsideTheParker · Jun 6, 2015

We got a great year from Victorino, Napoli, Ortiz (post-season), and Koji. Now those guys seem broken. But why is that surprising? They are aging, esp. Koji and Papi, and broken (Vic and Nap). Everyone keeps saying 2013 was a fluke. Is a fluke a team that keeps winning all season long, whose players seem optimistic and happy to be playing together? Maybe, but not to me. As for the other years, there are countless explanations, every one of which has been gone over and over. Was it worth it? Yes, to me, for 2013 (not just the post-season) was a lot more fun and less anxiety-provoking than 2004. It's my favorite.

glennhoffmania · Jun 6, 2015

This isn't even a question. Anyone who was watching the 2013 ALCS and wouldn't take a guaranteed WS title at that point in exchange for two shitty years should be ostracized from society.

Oil Can Dan · Jun 6, 2015

I think a more apt question would be something along "would you be happy if you were a White Sox fan". Champs in 2005, and crap ever since.

I'd say yes to that question, too. Two years is nuthin.

LogansDad · Jun 6, 2015

I can't believe this is even a question anyone would consider.

nocode51 · Jun 6, 2015

You have to take the championship every time.

nocode51 · Jun 6, 2015

I wouldn't take the deal this time.

Savin Hillbilly · Jun 6, 2015

I don't know how to answer your question because you don't define the alternative. World Series plus 2 years of suckitude vs. no World Series plus 2 years of.....what? The answer could conceivably be "championships," in which case, sure, I'll trade one banner for two.

FanSinceBoggs · Jun 6, 2015

Ask a Detroit Tigers fan and I think they would say that two years of last place is easily worth one World Series title. Over the last 10 years (or so) the Tigers came close so many times, but never accomplished the ultimate goal. The Tigers window has probably closed and they have nothing to show for it. They haven't won a W.S. in over 30 years when Sparky, Trammell, Sweet Lou Whitaker, big Lance Parrish, Kirk Gibson, Jack Morris, and Willie Hernandez roamed the field at old Tigers stadium.

edit: Chet Lemon may have been on that team too.

Al Zarilla · Jun 6, 2015

nocode51 said:
I wouldn't take the deal this time.

You'd take it on the duplicate thread but not this one? I take it on both. Playing like .500 ball all year every year is no fun. I'll take feast or famine (can't have feast every year).

Rasputin · Jun 6, 2015

I think a better question is whether you would trade two years of suck to win just that game.

I don't know the odds of winning the world series based on the status of the LCS but I wouldn't be surprised if the difference between being 1-1 and 0-2 is bigger than a good team's chances of winning the World Series when the season starts.

Dahabenzapple2 · Jun 6, 2015

Does anyone remember what it felt like in the fall of 2003?

I started loving the Sox ~ 1968-69 so I remember

LogansDad · Jun 6, 2015

FanSinceBoggs said:
Ask a Detroit Tigers fan and I think they would say that two years of last place is easily worth one World Series title. Over the last 10 years (or so) the Tigers came close so many times, but never accomplished the ultimate goal. The Tigers window has probably closed and they have nothing to show for it. They haven't won a W.S. in over 30 years when Sparky, Trammell, Sweet Lou Whitaker, big Lance Parrish, Kirk Gibson, Jack Morris, and Willie Hernandez roamed the field at old Tigers stadium.

edit: Chet Lemon may have been on that team too.

I was just about to get in an argument with you about it not being over 30 years since the Tigers won the WS, because they won one when I was a kid.

Then I realized it was true. Shit.

To get back to the original question, I actually think the title in 13 makes this season that much easier to handle (and let's be honest, as bad as it has been, there have been enjoyable parts of the season, and players to watch). I think if they had not won in 13, it would be harder for them to trot guys like Swihart, Xander and Mookie out there everyday to let them get the experience that they need to get better.

I wouldn't call the Sox ten year run "unprecedented", but let's be honest, they won three titles in a decade. There are 30 teams in the Major Leagues. Only one can win each year, and to win the last game of your playoff season three times in ten years is pretty outstanding. The only two teams who might be able to claim a better run of success since 2000 are St Louis and San Francisco. At some point, something had to give (and it likely will for both of those teams soon, as well). Still, the future looks bright for the Sox, even if only 1 in 5 prospects pans out.

Snodgrass'Muff · Jun 6, 2015

Dahabenzapple2 said:
Does anyone remember what it felt like in the fall of 2003?

I started loving the Sox ~ 1968-69 so I remember

Buckner is my first professional sports memory. That was also the first time in my life my father apologized to me for something. I was 7.

Al Zarilla · Jun 6, 2015

Snodgrass'Muff said:
Buckner is my first professional sports memory. That was also the first time in my life my father apologized to me for something. I was 7.

Your father apologized to you for Buckner's error. Is he Bill Buckner?

Scoots McBoots · Jun 6, 2015

I was expecting 2013 to be like this year, so I viewed it as a really fantastic freebie. I'd take 10 seasons of this for a title.

sackamano · Jun 6, 2015

I remember '67, '75. '86 and the fall of 2003, all heartbreaking losses. My father was a Red Sox fan who lived his whole life without seeing them win the WS.

Winning is worth it every time for this fan ... whatever the cost. I'd never trade a Championship for anything. It's too much fun and satisfaction.

bosockboy · Jun 6, 2015

Championships are Crown Jewels. Never give one up as they are rare.

Two shitty years for the Sox is nothing as you know they'll right the ship at some point. And living in STL, beating them twice saved from such horrible despair.

Snodgrass'Muff · Jun 6, 2015

Al Zarilla said:
Your father apologized to you for Buckner's error. Is he Bill Buckner?

He apologized for setting me on a lifelong journey of what, at the time, was a hopeless descent into madness and perpetual heartbreak. Of course, being seven he just said "This is what being a Red Sox fan is like. There's always next year."

Savin Hillbilly · Jun 6, 2015

Papo The Snow Tiger said:
Also, I was thinking that the alternative to not "making the deal" is a wild card; you don't know what the future would hold.

Then it goes without saying that you don't make the deal. You don't give up a championship now if you don't even know what you're getting later instead.

bosockboy · Jun 6, 2015

A better question--one guaranteed championship over a period of a decade, with ten years of despair. Or roll the dice to try and win 2 or 3 (or zero). Tougher call but I still take the ring.

geoduck no quahog · Jun 6, 2015

NM. Enough snark on the board without me contributing.

benhogan · Jun 6, 2015

Al Zarilla said:
Your father apologized to you for Buckner's error. Is he Bill Buckner?

Makes sense.

My grand mother warned me not to get too involved with the Sox after the '78 play-off game.

She spent over 40 years with a husband ranting and raving about the Sox.

There were generations of New England families that only experienced sadness and frustration with the Sox.

curly2 · Jun 6, 2015

Give me the Series anytime!

As an added bonus for me, the only World Series game I attended was Game 1 in 2013. It was a tremendous night, and I can take some losing in the process.

Vegas Sox Fan · Jun 6, 2015

I think everyone can agree that the order goes 2004, 2013, 2007. The banishment of the curse of the bambino and the 1918 chants along with the idiots and don't let us win tonight is tough to beat. That said, the 2013 crew was a lot of fun with the beards and heroics abound. I'm not sure I would trade the way that season played out for anything.

Oil Can Dan · Jun 6, 2015

Honestly, I was all set after 2004. Had they not won one again for the rest of my life I was good. The rest has just been gravy.

smastroyin · Jun 6, 2015

OK, a few things.

1) ITP's implication that David Ortiz was only great in the 2013 postseason is laughable. He had a great year that year from the time the season started.
2) The answer is yes every time, except
3) If I were given the choice, I would say yes, place a bunch of wagers, and then stop watching for three years because knowing what will happen in sports takes out all the fun.
4)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJyxzaLNlNw

TheoShmeo · Jun 6, 2015

I would trade what happened in 2013 for a lot more than two years of suckitude.

2004 did change everything but I wanted that 2013 title in the worst way. That team really grabbed me and the marathon aspect is undeniable.

At this point, all things Red Sox for me are wants, not needs.

Bigpupp · Jun 6, 2015

TheoShmeo said:
I would trade what happened in 2013 for a lot more than two years of suckitude.

This would make a good question. How many years of sucktitude would you endure if you were guaranteed to have 2013 turn out the way it did. It's MUCH higher than 2, that's for sure.

MentalDisabldLst · Jun 7, 2015

glennhoffmania said:
This isn't even a question. Anyone who was watching the 2013 ALCS and wouldn't take a guaranteed WS title at that point in exchange for two shitty years should be ostracized from society.

The average team wins a world series title every 30 years. I mean, shit, I'd probably take 10 years of suckitude, assuming that we were guaranteed to lose the ALCS absent that miracle comeback... (but then again, we won 3 of the next 4 games, so we'd have gone to a game 7 there - who would have started?)

Snodgrass'Muff · Jun 7, 2015

Bigpupp said:
This would make a good question. How many years of sucktitude would you endure if you were guaranteed to have 2013 turn out the way it did. It's MUCH higher than 2, that's for sure.

As smas points out, knowing in advance takes so much out of it. More interesting for me is, going forward, how many seasons of shitty play would you accept to prevent someone from going back in time and undoing that 2013 title? How much is that emotional ride worth?

I'd go a long way past two seasons. I'm not sure how far exactly, but we are no where near the point where I'd give it up to make the suck stop.

techsoldaten · Jun 7, 2015

smastroyin said:
OK, a few things.

1) ITP's implication that David Ortiz was only great in the 2013 postseason is laughable. He had a great year that year from the time the season started.
2) The answer is yes every time, except
3) If I were given the choice, I would say yes, place a bunch of wagers, and then stop watching for three years because knowing what will happen in sports takes out all the fun.
4)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJyxzaLNlNw

Ortiz hit that homerun the night I got married. We had the event in Las Vegas, the Sox were down at the start of the ceremony, and he hit that home run right after we exchanged vows. I stepped out just in time to see him crossing home, and enjoyed watching the rest of the games throughout our honeymoon in California.

If anyone thinks I am making this up, send me a message and I will share a copy of the contract for the facilities.

That's the thing about success, bad seasons come and go but you always have those moments of triumph and the stories that go with them. I can handle a few bad years but the good ones will never go away. I know years like that can be depleting for players and don't really expect to see a dynasty, so the swings from worst to first are just part of it.

TheoShmeo · Jun 7, 2015

Snodgrass'Muff said:
As smas points out, knowing in advance takes so much out of it. More interesting for me is, going forward, how many seasons of shitty play would you accept to prevent someone from going back in time and undoing that 2013 title? How much is that emotional ride worth?

I'd go a long way past two seasons. I'm not sure how far exactly, but we are no where near the point where I'd give it up to make the suck stop.

Funny, I was essentially reinterpreting the question to your formulation. The ride associated with the 2013 Sox, and all the drama of the Tigers and Cards series, would be severely diminished if I knew in advance the outcome.

That said, given how important it was to me that the Sox win the Series before the playoffs started, I would still trade a certain title for a lot of subsequent suckitude. No doubt, I'd pay more for an uncertain title but I would still pay quite a bit given the context of that season.

cornwalls@6 · Jun 7, 2015

A thousand times yes, I would take that deal. My fandom started in the early 70's, with my father taking my brothers and myself to Fenway shortly after we moved back(in my parents case) to MA. So I lived through all the kicks in the balls from '75-2004. Championships are a precious commodity. To have had 3 in the last 11 years is something I wouldn't even have been able fantasize about in late October of 2003. Theyre absolutely worth enduring a few suck-fest seasons here and there.

Jnai · Jun 7, 2015

techsoldaten said:
Ortiz hit that homerun the night I got married. We had the event in Las Vegas, the Sox were down at the start of the ceremony, and he hit that home run right after we exchanged vows. I stepped out just in time to see him crossing home, and enjoyed watching the rest of the games throughout our honeymoon in California.

If anyone thinks I am making this up, send me a message and I will share a copy of the contract for the facilities.

That's the thing about success, bad seasons come and go but you always have those moments of triumph and the stories that go with them. I can handle a few bad years but the good ones will never go away. I know years like that can be depleting for players and don't really expect to see a dynasty, so the swings from worst to first are just part of it.

http://i.imgur.com/gSkAFNW.jpg

I am circled in pink, arms raised (have the winter hat on), apparently mid O-face. Standing next to my brother (wearing green C's hoodie).

So, obviously yes. Because holy shit was that game miserable until that hit. =)

The Boomer · Jun 7, 2015

Weirdly, the whole shattered bat flying into the stands disaster could be the true turning point where (sss notwithstanding this weekend) the Sox finally stop attempting to kill their fans. IMO, unless they pull off a 10 game winning streak before the All Star break next month, this second season of unexpected suckitude could be a blessing in disguise as they finally shed themselves of all the old and aging remnants of their serendipitous 2013 season and bring in all their new stars. I much prefer Rodriguez to Hamels as their potential future ace going forward. While they are heavily invested in Pedroia, H Ram, Panda, Porcello and Miley for the next few seasons, they will earn their money. Johnson looks like he could arrive soon to give the Sox their best trio of lefty starters since Hurst, Tudor and Ojeda. Owens and other prospects could be part of a trade for more of a right handed stud pitcher but I can see how they will first audition Buchholz, Kelly, Wright and (maybe) Barnes for this role. Ultimately, both Kelly and Barnes in the bullpen could be revelations. Betts, Bogaerts and Swihart are already regulars and getting their chances to build their confidence. Castillo has virtually already replaced Victorino. Ortiz and Napoli might also soon be done. More than trading the 2013 championship for these 2 disappointing seasons, the patience of Sox management in turning over their roster in a hard to accomplish (in Boston) youth movement is what will make this all worthwhile. If the needed 10 game winning streak eludes this team, then maximizing their premium choices this year and next in the amateur draft is essential as their next wave of studs (Moncada and Devers leading this next group) are on the horizon.

Devizier · Jun 7, 2015

MentalDisabldLst said:
The average team wins a world series title every 30 years. I mean, shit, I'd probably take 10 years of suckitude, assuming that we were guaranteed to lose the ALCS absent that miracle comeback... (but then again, we won 3 of the next 4 games, so we'd have gone to a game 7 there - who would have started?)

The mean team wins once every thirty. The median -- which is what matters -- well probably a lot longer.

Snodgrass'Muff · Jun 7, 2015

MentalDisabldLst said:
The average team wins a world series title every 30 years. I mean, shit, I'd probably take 10 years of suckitude, assuming that we were guaranteed to lose the ALCS absent that miracle comeback... (but then again, we won 3 of the next 4 games, so we'd have gone to a game 7 there - who would have started?)

Devizier said:
The mean team wins once every thirty. The median -- which is what matters -- well probably a lot longer.

Don't both of these assume an even distribution of talent, injuries, development, decline, ect...?

The Boomer · Jun 7, 2015

The Boomer said:
Weirdly, the whole shattered bat flying into the stands disaster could be the true turning point where (sss notwithstanding this weekend) the Sox finally stop attempting to kill their fans. IMO, unless they pull off a 10 game winning streak before the All Star break next month, this second season of unexpected suckitude could be a blessing in disguise as they finally shed themselves of all the old and aging remnants of their serendipitous 2013 season and bring in all their new stars. I much prefer Rodriguez to Hamels as their potential future ace going forward. While they are heavily invested in Pedroia, H Ram, Panda, Porcello and Miley for the next few seasons, they will earn their money. Johnson looks like he could arrive soon to give the Sox their best trio of lefty starters since Hurst, Tudor and Ojeda. Owens and other prospects could be part of a trade for more of a right handed stud pitcher but I can see how they will first aaudition Buchholz, Kelly, Wright and (maybe) Barnes for this role. Ultimately, both Kelly and Barnes in the bullpen could be revelations. Betts, Bogaerts and Swihart are already regulars and getting their chances to build their confidence. Castillo has virtually already replaced Victorino. Ortiz and Napoli might also soon be done. More than trading the 2013 championship for these 2 disappointing seasons, the patience of Sox management in turning over their roster in a hard to accomplish (in Boston) youth movement is what will make this all worthwhile. If the needed 10 game winning streak eludes this team, then maximizing their premium choices this year and next in the amateur draft is essential as their next wave of studs (Moncada and Devers leading this next group) are on the horizon.

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/red-sox/post/_/id/44513/rapid-reaction-red-sox-7-athletics-4

3 down - 7 to go. Don't overrate this sss weekend sweep with the stunning comeback to cap it off unless the Sox can sustain this for a 10 games winning streak. Reverting to .500 baseball or less between now and the All Star break should make them sellers again.

Gunfighter 09 · Jun 7, 2015

Someone remind me, how long do they get to fly the World Series flag?

Remagellan · Jun 7, 2015

FOREVER!

Devizier · Jun 7, 2015

Snodgrass'Muff said:
Don't both of these assume an even distribution of talent, injuries, development, decline, ect...?

well, not really. If there was an even distribution, the mean and the median would be the same.

reggiecleveland · Jun 7, 2015

There is more than decent chance 13 was the last one for many of us. I mean from 67-91 they were below .500 only 2 times and of course blew three game 7s, that's 25 years of being a good team with no title.It is really hard to win it all. Any deal that offers a guaranteed championship is a pretty good deal.

If your goal is to have an interesting team to cheer for then you maybe take those 25 years.

TomBrunansky23 · Jun 7, 2015

reggiecleveland said:
There is more than decent chance 13 was the last one for many of us. I mean from 67-91 they were below .500 only 2 times and of course blew three game 7s, that's 25 years of being a good team with no title.It is really hard to win it all. Any deal that offers a guaranteed championship is a pretty good deal.

If your goal is to have an interesting team to cheer for then you maybe take those 25 years.

I dunno, as was mentioned above that '13 team was just so special, so endearing, so easy to root for. Even after they won it, I was just as sad that it was over as I was happy that they had won it all. I wanted to see them play the next day, and the day after that. Speaking for myself, I will cherish that season for the rest of my life, and if fate dictates that they never win it again so long as I am alive, I guess so be it.

reggiecleveland · Jun 7, 2015

Isn't that what I said. Take the championship?

TomBrunansky23 · Jun 7, 2015

Sorry - just got done re-watching the DVD. You say something Reg?

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