Workman is a non-starter

[Sprowl]

He's got the build and frame of a starter, but he doesn't have the variety or stamina to start.
 
Variety -- he throws two fastballs, generally with good location, and a knuckle curve. Those are good pitches, but his cutter and changeup rarely fool anybody. His cutter moves like a slower fastball: it doesn't cut. Those secondary pitches have almost been discarded, and for good reason, but limited variety means limited deception, especially multiple times through the order.
 
Stamina -- Workman loses velocity after his first inning, and again after his third. By the time he's over 50 pitches, he struggles to hit 90 mph. In his first inning, he often averages 93, touching 94, but it doesn't last.
 
Workman is 26, so I wouldn't count on much more development from him. If he is what he is, what he is is a reliever.

 

[Sandy Leon Trotsky]

Seems to be the consensus.  Seems that they should be giving him hi-leverage spots in the pen also now to see what they've got (if last year's playoffs are any indication, then it's something).....  They need starting arms right now and it also seems that RDLR should be moved to the pen just to preserve innings (although he should be a starter.) so there's suddenly a little empty spot in the rotation if both those things happen.

 

[SoxLegacy]

Sprowl, definitely agree. And Trotsky is correct--Workman should relocate to the 'pen, and RDLR should join him in order to limit Rubby's innings. Webster is in the rotation, so who gets added? I'd think Ranaudo and Escobar--both on the 40 man and it would be good to see them in the bigs. I guess Wright is also a candidate.

 

[Drek717]

Sprowl, definitely agree. And Trotsky is correct--Workman should relocate to the 'pen, and RDLR should join him in order to limit Rubby's innings. Webster is in the rotation, so who gets added? I'd think Ranaudo and Escobar--both on the 40 man and it would be good to see them in the bigs. I guess Wright is also a candidate.

Escobar is still only 22 right?  He was getting beat up in the PCL before the trade, but that is pretty much how the PCL works.  I'd really like to see them give Wright a shot, I think there is a good chance he's figure the knuckler out enough to be a solid #5 starter for the Sox.

 

[P'tucket rhymes with...]

Seems to be the consensus.  Seems that they should be giving him hi-leverage spots in the pen also now to see what they've got (if last year's playoffs are any indication, then it's something).....  They need starting arms right now and it also seems that RDLR should be moved to the pen just to preserve innings (although he should be a starter.) so there's suddenly a little empty spot in the rotation if both those things happen.

Wright and Renaudo are the only other starters on the 40 man right now.  I would assume that the FO has (long since) come to the same conclusion re: Workman, and are only using him as an innings eater (in theory, anyways).  I'd expect RDLR to be shelved for the year and Workman to go to the pen on 9/1.  
 
Edit--forgot about Escobar.

 

[Plympton91]

I was saying that all last winter. He was so good out of the pen in the postseason and then early this season that it seemed crazy to go back to starting again. His stuff clearly is much better as a reliever and they have plenty of other options for a 5th starter, including as oothers have mentioned, Wright.

 

[P'tucket rhymes with...]

I was saying that all last winter. He was so good out of the pen in the postseason and then early this season that it seemed crazy to go back to starting again. His stuff clearly is much better as a reliever and they have plenty of other options for a 5th starter, including as oothers have mentioned, Wright.

Wright's been getting slammed for the better part of the last five weeks.  But I'll assume you were telling us that last winter as well.

 

[OCD SS]

There's no reason not to have Workman or RDLR reach their innings limits as starters; it's not like the Sox need them to extend their seasons into the playoffs. Since RDLR is looking at a spot in the rotation long term, having him maintain a starter's regimen & routine is probably good for his development. With Workman it's just about eating innings until the minor league season ends; he should be slated for the pen next season.

 

[The Gray Eagle]

I don't know if just moving him to the bullpen will fix what's wrong with Workman. He looks like a different pitcher out there than last year and earlier this year: working at a Buchholz-like snail's pace, trying to nibble all the time, lots of 2-strike pitches fouled off, not paying attention to baserunners.
 
He's just been a bad pitcher since he came back from that suspension, and he was a good pitcher before that, including as a starter. 
 
I think he has either completely lost confidence, or he is pitching in pain. Or maybe both. 
 
He should move to the bullpen, because I don't see what good can come from running him back out there as a starter. But I don't expect that to turn him back into a good pitcher this year. Hopefully whatever's wrong with him will get rightened in the offseason. 

 

[SoxLegacy]

I do agree with Gray Eagle--2014 Workman is a completely different version than 2013. He was so good in the post-season last year that the guy on the mound today bears no resemblance to the confident pitcher we saw last season. He had some appearances where he came through like a vet with ice water in the veins and now he's suffering from Buchholz-itis.

 

[P'tucket rhymes with...]

There's no reason not to have Workman or RDLR reach their innings limits as starters; it's not like the Sox need them to extend their seasons into the playoffs. Since RDLR is looking at a spot in the rotation long term, having him maintain a starter's regimen & routine is probably good for his development. With Workman it's just about eating innings until the minor league season ends; he should be slated for the pen next season.

How many innings are they looking for from RDLR?  He's already at 138 after throwing just over 90 last year.  

 

[Sandy Leon Trotsky]

I was saying that all last winter. He was so good out of the pen in the postseason and then early this season that it seemed crazy to go back to starting again. His stuff clearly is much better as a reliever and they have plenty of other options for a 5th starter, including as oothers have mentioned, Wright.

So what's the harm in finding out what he could become as a starter for a season in AAA and as 6th man in the rotation?  He looked earlier in the season to be a very competent starter but has since lost it or the league has figured his stuff out and know how to play him.
It feels now, after another year of assessing what they have, that they (and us) now know with more certainty:  he's a RP with possible "closer" stuff.  At this point I think they should start giving Koji some closing breaks and test him in hi-lev innings... perhaps shut RDLR down for the season then?

 

[MakMan44]

Does this mean we can't trade him and Coyle for Mat Latos like Drek was telling us a few weeks ago?

Come on man, we all know that heading to the NL automatically removes 3 runs off your ERA.

 

[Sprowl]

Come on man, we all know that heading to the NL automatically removes 3 runs off your ERA.

 
Fear and loathe the NL Central acquisition, whether starter or reliever.
 
Joe Kelly is probably doomed. :blink:

 

[OptimusPapi]

I was saying that all last winter. He was so good out of the pen in the postseason and then early this season that it seemed crazy to go back to starting again. His stuff clearly is much better as a reliever and they have plenty of other options for a 5th starter, including as oothers have mentioned, Wright.

Its kinda amazing that Workman has some success as a starter and you immediately write him off as a reliever. Perhaps an element of logic was missing there. But in this case it is starting to appear you are are right. Hey even a broken clock is right twice.

 

[MuzzyField]

With so many of the young arms on innings limits, what can we expect from the call-ups in September? Is it realistic to have young starters open games and only go 3-4 innings to get a taste of MLB starting and not have any arms fall off? I'm asking because it looks like RDLR is quickly approaching his limit and in following the minor league forum it doesn't appear many innings are being saved for MLB auditions in September.  

 

[P'tucket rhymes with...]

With so many of the young arms on innings limits, what can we expect from the call-ups in September? Is it realistic to have young starters open games and only go 3-4 innings to get a taste of MLB starting and not have any arms fall off? I'm asking because it looks like RDLR is quickly approaching his limit and in following the minor league forum it doesn't appear many innings are being saved for MLB auditions in September.  

They only need to find 230 innings worth of work after 9/1 to get them through the season.  You might see more Drake Britton than you'd care to, but no one's arm is going to be falling off.

 

[ivanvamp]

If Workman ends up being nothing more than a really nice power arm out of the bullpen. I'm fine with that.

 

[Plympton91]

Its kinda amazing that Workman has some success as a starter and you immediately write him off as a deliver. Perhaps an element of logic was missing there. But in this case it is starting to appear you are are right. Hey even a broken clock is right twice.

Yes, because 3 good starts should trump all previous scouting and data such as MLEs. You must be wondering what happened to Aaron Small as well.

Oh, and I guess the second time would have been that Bradley wasn't ready to hit major league pitching? Or was it that AJP was a candidate for a collapse? Or that sending down Nava was stupid?

 

[jsinger121]

If Workman ends up being nothing more than a really nice power arm out of the bullpen. I'm fine with that.

Me too since that is extremely value to have. I never thought he would be able to start. I'd kick him to the pen now and give Ranaudo a final month trial.

 

[OptimusPapi]

Yes, because 3 good starts should trump all previous scouting and data such as MLEs. You must be wondering what happened to Aaron Small as well.

Oh, and I guess the second time would have been that Bradley wasn't ready to hit major league pitching? Or was it that AJP was a candidate for a collapse? Or that sending down Nava was stupid?

Or perhaps I decided to use my brain and not make any judgments one way or another? I understand the concept of small sample size which is why I didn't say anything inane such as Workman's a reliever.

 

[mfried]

If Workman ends up being nothing more than a really nice power arm out of the bullpen. I'm fine with that.

A power arm with a 92 mph fast ball (tops).

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

Seems to be the consensus.

 
well, consensus from everyone except those who matter. While I get that a starter is worth more than a reliever, I didn't understand why the Red Sox kept insisting on stretching him out. Workman's stuff should make him a pretty high leverage reliever; plus, the Red Sox have a couple too many starters already.

A power arm with a 92 mph fast ball (tops).

He can hit 95 out of the pen; maybe even higher.

 

[Sandy Leon Trotsky]

 
well, consensus from everyone except those who matter. While I get that a starter is worth more than a reliever, I didn't understand why the Red Sox kept insisting on stretching him out. Workman's stuff should make him a pretty high leverage reliever; plus, the Red Sox have a couple too many starters already.
He can hit 95 out of the pen; maybe even higher.

 
There's also the possibility that he could have shown enough as a starter to get turned into a decent piece in a trade (not mentioning names...).  I'd think inning eating solid young cost controlled starters would be worth quite a bit to other teams.... more than relief pitchers.  Dunno... just speculating.  I dunno..... 

 

[P'tucket rhymes with...]

A power arm with a 92 mph fast ball (tops).

He sits 92-93 and touches 95 (did that yesterday, actually).  He might be good for another tick or two out of the bullpen, and even if he isn't, that velocity and a good breaking ball are all he'll need to do very well for an inning or two out of the pen.
 

 
There's also the possibility that he could have shown enough as a starter to get turned into a decent piece in a trade (not mentioning names...).  I'd think inning eating solid young cost controlled starters would be worth quite a bit to other teams.... more than relief pitchers.  Dunno... just speculating.  I dunno..... 

Do you imagine that a bunch of fan board posters are seeing limitations in his game that professional scouts are overlooking?  He is who he is.

 

[dewystoetap]

https://twitter.com/alexspeier/status/503545551913488385

Optioned per Speier Hembree back up.

 

[Al Zarilla]

https://twitter.com/alexspeier/status/503545551913488385

Optioned per Speier Hembree back up.

Was wondering where Hembree was when Koji was being lit up (well, walks, bloops and a line drive) on Friday night. Was 98% sure he was at Pawtucket, but he would have been a good guy to bring in before the lead was surrendered and Koji was on his way to 38 pitches. Power arm after a 89/90 mph max guy is a good contrast. Ben C./Farrell fail with the bullpen diminished since Miller left. 

 

[mfried]

I think Workman would be effective for 2-3 innings.  His curve is nice, and although his fastball is no better than OK I think that he can get through a lineup once.

 

[judyb]

Was wondering where Hembree was when Koji was being lit up (well, walks, bloops and a line drive) on Friday night. Was 98% sure he was at Pawtucket, but he would have been a good guy to bring in before the lead was surrendered and Koji was on his way to 38 pitches. Power arm after a 89/90 mph max guy is a good contrast. Ben C./Farrell fail with the bullpen diminished since Miller left.

After he threw so many pitches in that one game, they pretty much had to option him for a fresh arm, and the bullpen is probably almost as diminished because they're not getting innings from the starters as it is from the loss of Miller. The good news is, they're only about a week from expanded rosters and they're off Thursday so the need to keep cycling all the optionable relievers through that one roster spot seems to be past.

 

[Al Zarilla]

After he threw so many pitches in that one game, they pretty much had to option him for a fresh arm, and the bullpen is probably almost as diminished because they're not getting innings from the starters as it is from the loss of Miller. The good news is, they're only about a week from expanded rosters and they're off Thursday so the need to keep cycling all the optionable relievers through that one roster spot seems to be past.

Hembree threw a lot of pitches in one game? Oh, yeah, 8/9 v Angels, 62, didn't see that game, didn't know he had thrown that many. Thanks. It was a good outing for Heath though, according to his stats. The issue with him is wildness, I think.

 

[Paradigm]

He's had some nice moments and Farrell seems to like him. But he's the kind of guy that needs to be operating at peak performance to excel. If he loses a tick off the fastball, has trouble with location, can't get the breaking stuff to work (or any of the above) he's in trouble because he doesn't have the raw stuff to battle through 6 innings.
 
You look at Workman and you think that if he puts it all together he could be a #3. It's tough to give important innings to a guy like that unless he's in the fifth starter spot.
 
He kind of looks like a Justin Grimm type. 

 

[Plympton91]

He's had some nice moments and Farrell seems to like him. But he's the kind of guy that needs to be operating at peak performance to excel. If he loses a tick off the fastball, has trouble with location, can't get the breaking stuff to work (or any of the above) he's in trouble because he doesn't have the raw stuff to battle through 6 innings.
 
You look at Workman and you think that if he puts it all together he could be a #3. It's tough to give important innings to a guy like that unless he's in the fifth starter spot.
 
He kind of looks like a Justin Grimm type. 

Part of the problem, and part of why they probably gave him so much rope as a starter, is that he looks a lot like an Anthony Ranaudo type, and a Alan Webster type, and a Ruby De La Rosa type, and a Brian Johnson type, and repertoire aside, a Steven Wright type.

 

[Rasputin]

It's a fair point. As mediocre as Workman has looked, who should take his place? There's a grand total of zero pitchers who are making a good case for locking down a spot in next years rotation.

 
I don't think that's accurate at all. Rubby de la Rosa has pitched to a 3.69 ERA overall, and has held opponents to two runs or less in seven of his thirteen games. 
 
Also, I think it's pretty clear who should get Workman's innings. Webster and DLR are already in the rotation, Workman really shouldn't be. Barnes hasn't done much this year. Owens is not on the 40 and hasn't had enough AAA time. That leaves Ranaudo. 

 

[Paradigm]

Part of the problem, and part of why they probably gave him so much rope as a starter, is that he looks a lot like an Anthony Ranaudo type, and a Alan Webster type, and a Ruby De La Rosa type, and a Brian Johnson type, and repertoire aside, a Steven Wright type.

 
Funny thing about this: you're right to point out the lack of upside here, but the Angels would kill to to have a Ranaudo/Workman/Johnson type or two in the minors right now. 

 

[ivanvamp]

well, consensus from everyone except those who matter. While I get that a starter is worth more than a reliever, I didn't understand why the Red Sox kept insisting on stretching him out. Workman's stuff should make him a pretty high leverage reliever; plus, the Red Sox have a couple too many starters already.He can hit 95 out of the pen; maybe even higher.

Absolutely. He did this last year out of the pen.

 

[mauidano]

I think Workman would be effective for 2-3 innings.  His curve is nice, and although his fastball is no better than OK I think that he can get through a lineup once.

He'll get a couple, few more starts this year when he gets back but this might be his role eventually.  Long reliever.

 

[P'tucket rhymes with...]

Part of the problem, and part of why they probably gave him so much rope as a starter, is that he looks a lot like an Anthony Ranaudo type, and a Alan Webster type, and a Ruby De La Rosa type, and a Brian Johnson type, and repertoire aside, a Steven Wright type.

I don't think I agree with that; agree or disagree with their decisions, this FO does not seem particularly vulnerable to slotting guys based on what they "look like."  He's ultimately a reliever, although he's been more of a swing man thus far in Boston.  He's been getting starts because they've needed starters more than relievers over the course of this season.  Once five guys establish their credentials ahead of him, he'll be in the bullpen.

 

[CaskNFappin]

Sox need 4 SP to contend next year.

 

[Sprowl]

mid-rotation: DLR, Kelly
back end: Webster, Ranaudo, Escobar
long relief and spot starts: Workman, Wright, Owens (by July), Rodriguez (by September).
 
Still waiting for Lester/FA1 and FA2 to anchor the rotation.

 

[OptimusPapi]

mid-rotation: DLR, Kelly
back end: Webster, Ranaudo, Escobar
long relief and spot starts: Workman, Wright, Owens (by July), Rodriguez (by September).
 
Still waiting for Lester/FA1 and FA2 to anchor the rotation.

You forgot clay

 

[HriniakPosterChild]

You forgot clay

 
Isn't he part of the package going to the Marlins for some guy whose name I can't remember.

 

[OptimusPapi]

[QUOTE="Hriniak]
 
Isn't he part of the package going to the Marlins for some guy whose name I can't remember.
[/QUOTE]My bad

 

[JimD]

You forgot clay

 
Mid-rotation guy at best at this point.