What does Red Sox starting pitching look like in 2024?

PedroKsBambino

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 17, 2003
31,633
Back to my original point...



This is absolutely true for these four guys, if any of them had announced 'I will go to the highest bidder no matter who that is', they would have gotten more. This is true for Ohtani and Yamamoto also, both would end up with more if they genuinely didn't care where they ended up and made that clear. That was my only point here, a pretty obvious one IMO.
Restating this doesn't change the math.

I'll try it a different way: I don't believe there's teams who wanted to pay Cole more and didn't even bid because they didn't think he wanted to go there. I think that may in very rare cases happen---but most of the time, the teams who are willing to pay that much reach out to the agent and try (and that's what I've read when I've seen agents interviewed---they always note there's non-public bidders and discussion). I do think they do not always win, to be clear. In that scenario--player has a preference but is engaging with several teams---I beleive it is a lot more likely teams who are bidding offer MORE if they think a player doesn't want to go there (not less), and so if the publicly reported bids are close or (as in Cole and Judge's cases) lower AAV than where they sign it seems most likely to me they took the money.

Ohtani, in his initial signing, does seem like a guy who made clear he had a specific list and so in his case I do think reasonable to ask if he left money on the table. I have not seen that so clearly this time around, so we'll see.
 

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
71,454
Ohtani, in his initial signing, does seem like a guy who made clear he had a specific list and so in his case I do think reasonable to ask if he left money on the table. I have not seen that so clearly this time around, so we'll see.
This is why it’s hard to take you seriously on this, you argue general economic theory but I don’t think you follow the actual sport especially closely. Everyone knows that of course money wasn’t a factor in Ohtani’s original signing, as teams were only allowed to offer a fraction of what he actually deserved and so everyone offered the most they were allowed to by the CBA.
 

PedroKsBambino

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 17, 2003
31,633
This is why it’s hard to take you seriously on this, you argue general economic theory but I don’t think you follow the actual sport especially closely. Everyone knows that of course money wasn’t a factor in Ohtani’s original signing, as teams were only allowed to offer a fraction of what he actually deserved and so everyone offered the most they were allowed to by the CBA.
Ignoring the personal invective, I'm not sure what you disagree with in my statement about Ohtani the first time around; I suspect there are a bunch of folks around here who weren't following that posting closely six years ago as there's a range of people, and ages, on the board. I'm trying to separate scenarios where we have very good reason to believe it's not about money from those where it's less clear. My belief is that the former group is a pretty small one.
 

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
71,454
Ignoring the personal invective, I'm not sure what you disagree with in my statement about Ohtani the first time around; I suspect there are a bunch of folks around here who weren't following that posting closely six years ago as there's a range of people, and ages, on the board. I'm trying to separate scenarios where we have very good reason to believe it's not about money from those where it's less clear. My belief is that the former group is a pretty small one.
Heh, you were the one who brought up Ohtani’s original signing!
 

JM3

often quoted
SoSH Member
Dec 14, 2019
15,792
The Yankees say they intentionally held the #18 for Yoshinobu Yamamoto all year.

The Yankees intentionally did not give out 18 last season as they were regularly scouting Yamamoto in Japan. Andrew Benintendi wore it in New York in 2022.

Yamamoto will take in-person meetings with MLB teams after the winter meetings, as SNY reported over the weekend. Three of the other teams linked to him -- the Dodgers, Giants and Red Sox -- have 18 available, but did not hold it out last year like the Yankees did (Darin Ruf and Paul DeJong wore 18 for San Francisco, Shelby Miller for the Dodgers, and Adam Duvall for Boston).

For the Mets, Nick Plummer last wore 18 in in 2022, but the team is retiring it next year for Darryl Strawberry.
https://sny.tv/articles/yankees-have-been-saving-yoshinobu-yamamoto-uniform-number

The Red Sox tampered less blatantly by giving it to a player on a 1-year contract, Adam Duvall.

Japanese pitchers to wear the #18 for the Red Sox include Tomo Okha (2001), Daisuke Matsuzaka (2007 to 2012), & Hirokazu Sawamura (2022).
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 11, 2007
6,551
This is why it’s hard to take you seriously on this, you argue general economic theory but I don’t think you follow the actual sport especially closely. Everyone knows that of course money wasn’t a factor in Ohtani’s original signing, as teams were only allowed to offer a fraction of what he actually deserved and so everyone offered the most they were allowed to by the CBA.
Wait... you like to speculate that nobody wanted Yoshida because of what a few GM's said to the media and poop on the Sox offer.....when we don't really know much at all. I just think we don't REALLY know. If you lost out on Yoshida (or whoever) it's probably good PR to say we didn't really want him rather than, "gee, we couldn't come up with the extra $500K that would have beat the Sox offer" or in other cases, "We REALLY wanted him but he wanted to go play elsewhere, what can you do?!?!!?". We don't really know what anyone offered for anyone other than stuff they say to the media and there's a lot of PR in what they say.
In the case of Yoshida, I have a really hard time believing that nobody else wanted him close to what the Sox offered. It's just as likely he WANTED to play in Boston as much as Judge wanted to play in NY and other teams didn't really bother to offer an actual competitive offer
 

Auger34

used to be tbb
SoSH Member
Apr 23, 2010
9,902
Wait... you like to speculate that nobody wanted Yoshida because of what a few GM's said to the media and poop on the Sox offer.....when we don't really know much at all. I just think we don't REALLY know. If you lost out on Yoshida (or whoever) it's probably good PR to say we didn't really want him rather than, "gee, we couldn't come up with the extra $500K that would have beat the Sox offer" or in other cases, "We REALLY wanted him but he wanted to go play elsewhere, what can you do?!?!!?". We don't really know what anyone offered for anyone other than stuff they say to the media and there's a lot of PR in what they say.
In the case of Yoshida, I have a really hard time believing that nobody else wanted him close to what the Sox offered. It's just as likely he WANTED to play in Boston as much as Judge wanted to play in NY and other teams didn't really bother to offer an actual competitive offer
It was reported by literally everyone that the Sox blew everyone out of the water with their Yoshida bid. I don't remember a single report saying anyone was close or that Yoshida preferred the Sox to "Mystery Team X".

Why exactly do you have a hard time believing that no one was close to the Sox offer? It seems like you really want that to be true more than anything
 

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
71,454
In the case of Yoshida, I have a really hard time believing that nobody else wanted him close to what the Sox offered.
Why? The rep on him was that he was a solid but not great hitter and a bad defensive OF, those aren't especially valuable. Would you sign him to that same contract now?

Anyway sometimes the timing on these things shows us all we need to know. Nola and Gray both signed quickly because there were specific teams they wanted to end up on and they did. Yoshida signed incredibly quickly because BOS offered him more than Boras expected anyone to, so he jumped at it.

"The Boston Red Sox raised some eyebrows on Wednesday when they signed outfielder Masataka Yoshida to a five-year, $90 million contract, and many are still confused by the deal.

ESPN's Kiley McDaniel spoke to "10 sources" who all "thought the Red Sox overpaid by a hefty margin." One executive went as far as to say, "We thought he was worth less than half of what they paid.""

View: https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10058108-mlb-exec-says-masataka-yoshida-worth-less-than-half-of-90m-red-sox-contract


Universally no one except Bloom thought Yoshida was worth 5/90, other GMs, writers, no one. Not sure why you're blaming me, I'm just regurgitating the opinions of professionals.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 11, 2007
6,551
Why? The rep on him was that he was a solid but not great hitter and a bad defensive OF, those aren't especially valuable. Would you sign him to that same contract now?

Anyway sometimes the timing on these things shows us all we need to know. Nola and Gray both signed quickly because there were specific teams they wanted to end up on and they did. Yoshida signed incredibly quickly because BOS offered him more than Boras expected anyone to, so he jumped at it.

"The Boston Red Sox raised some eyebrows on Wednesday when they signed outfielder Masataka Yoshida to a five-year, $90 million contract, and many are still confused by the deal.

ESPN's Kiley McDaniel spoke to "10 sources" who all "thought the Red Sox overpaid by a hefty margin." One executive went as far as to say, "We thought he was worth less than half of what they paid.""

View: https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10058108-mlb-exec-says-masataka-yoshida-worth-less-than-half-of-90m-red-sox-contract


Universally no one except Bloom thought Yoshida was worth 5/90, other GMs, writers, no one. Not sure why you're blaming me, I'm just regurgitating the opinions of professionals.
Well up until early August, he was looking like an incredible deal. And going forward I'm bullish that he'll be more than worth that contract.
But I don't think any of the media quotes from other GM's mean much at all. Same with the Judge contract. We don't REALLY know. Only what they say for PR. It's very likely that Yoshida could have waited and ended up with a lesser contract when the Sox moved on. Also seems just as likely as other teams offered something very close and he opted for Boston and other teams say something else to the media. "Less than half" is a joke and it's enough to make me question what GM's really said and offered
 

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
71,454
"Less than half" is a joke and it's enough to make me question what GM's really said and offered
Prospect evaluators also were not high on him, multiple places didn't even put him in their top 100 prospects after he signed his deal, when usually those guys go into the top 10 or 20 in MLB (they shouldn't be on prospect lists anyway but that's a different discussion). I'm all for questioning things but sometimes the most obvious answer is correct.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 13, 2021
12,445
Yoshida was never looking like an in incredible deal because his defense and base running is terrible. He doesn’t strike out much, but he’s not particularly good (nevermid elite) at anything else. Maybe he was simply fatigued in the second half, maybe the league caught up to him- will certainly be something interesting to follow this season.
 

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
71,454
Anyway Bloom went out on a limb signing Yoshida in the way that he did, I thought and said here at the time that it was pretty ballsy of him (still think so), that I would take his deal over Benintendi's (still would although that is more me being very low on Benintendi), and that how Yoshida's deal went would be a big part of Bloom's resume in BOS (and we know how that ended up). That doesn't mean he can't turn it around, just like Carlos Rodon can theoretically still turn it around, but both those deals look pretty bad as of now.
 

JM3

often quoted
SoSH Member
Dec 14, 2019
15,792
Some teams leave a # open for a season. Other teams overpay for a player's bff.

Everyone was preparing for the Yoshinobu Yamamoto sweepstakes a year early.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 11, 2007
6,551
Prospect evaluators also were not high on him, multiple places didn't even put him in their top 100 prospects after he signed his deal, when usually those guys go into the top 10 or 20 in MLB (they shouldn't be on prospect lists anyway but that's a different discussion). I'm all for questioning things but sometimes the most obvious answer is correct.
It's also very likely those talent evaluators that didn't have him in their top 100 agree with you that those types "shouldn't be in prospect lists anyway." and take it upon themselves to do just that.
Again, if he didn't collapse in early August (my speculation is exhaustion) he was likely going to be an .850 OPS RotY candidate (he ended up 4th). I'll drop it but I just can't believe that some "other GM" said he was only worth 5/$45. It's very likely he got a very good offer early on from Boston and he went to his agent and said, "I want to play in Boston" and the agent said, "you could possibly get more if you wait" and he said, "no.... that's a good amount".
 

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
71,454
It's also very likely those talent evaluators that didn't have him in their top 100 agree with you that those types "shouldn't be in prospect lists anyway." and take it upon themselves to do just that.
No, other international players like Senga made the lists. They just didn't like Yoshida, why does this matter so much to you?

"Yoshida didn’t even make my top 50 free agents, even though he was eligible, as he’s an often-injured outfielder whose power output in Japan seems unlikely to carry over to MLB."

"He might be a regular on some teams, but I think for a contender, he might fit more as an extra outfielder — and if I’m right, this is not a good deal for Boston."

https://theathletic.com/3981294/2022/12/07/keith-law-red-sox-masataka-yoshida/
 

sezwho

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2005
2,041
Isle of Plum
It's also very likely those talent evaluators that didn't have him in their top 100 agree with you that those types "shouldn't be in prospect lists anyway." and take it upon themselves to do just that.
Again, if he didn't collapse in early August (my speculation is exhaustion) he was likely going to be an .850 OPS RotY candidate (he ended up 4th). I'll drop it but I just can't believe that some "other GM" said he was only worth 5/$45. It's very likely he got a very good offer early on from Boston and he went to his agent and said, "I want to play in Boston" and the agent said, "you could possibly get more if you wait" and he said, "no.... that's a good amount".
I think it’s more likely Bloom said this offer good for X hours then I’m spending it somewhere else (the Eovaldi). You only accept an offer that early, even when it splashes the pot, if you fear losing it.

Wasn’t the baked beans: )
 

Hank Scorpio

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 1, 2013
7,038
Salem, NH
Some teams leave a # open for a season. Other teams overpay for a player's bff.

Everyone was preparing for the Yoshinobu Yamamoto sweepstakes a year early.
If it ever comes out that Bloom signed Yoshida as part of a long game to lure Yamamoto here, I'll actually have to show the guy a shred of appreciation.
 

JM3

often quoted
SoSH Member
Dec 14, 2019
15,792
@Tokyo Sox 1st suggested this the same day we signed Yoshida:

By the way, maybe better for a Red Sox rumors or a wild speculation thread, but if anyone is inclined to give Bloom credit for playing 4D chess, I hope there's some chance this signing makes it easier to get Yoshida's Orix Buffaloes teammate Yoshinobu Yamamoto if (when) he makes the move at this time next year. YY is better and younger than Senga and will be the most sought after Japanese player since Ohtani.

I'm obviously hopeful Yoshida makes a successful transition. But I'm *really* hopeful it helps us get Yamamoto too.
I assume it at least played a small part in the calculus. Bloom only really gets any credit for it if Yamamoto actually signs, & even then probably only if he mentions how excited he is to reunite with Yoshida. But I'd rather not continue to relitigate Bloom for the next 5 years regardless.
 

ehaz

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 30, 2007
4,985
Anyway Bloom went out on a limb signing Yoshida in the way that he did, I thought and said here at the time that it was pretty ballsy of him (still think so), that I would take his deal over Benintendi's (still would although that is more me being very low on Benintendi), and that how Yoshida's deal went would be a big part of Bloom's resume in BOS (and we know how that ended up). That doesn't mean he can't turn it around, just like Carlos Rodon can theoretically still turn it around, but both those deals look pretty bad as of now.
Sure the Yoshida contract doesn’t look like it will be a great value or anything but it doesn’t seem “pretty bad” to me. He had a 109 OPS+ in 140 games in his first season in MLB after a rapid adjustment period with basically no offseason thanks to the WBC. Yoshida also clearly looked gassed and hamstrung in the second half after looking as-advertised or better in the first half. If he just improves as much as Seiya Suzuki did from year 1 to year 2 all of the sudden that deal is looking pretty solid.

Rodon, with a 6.85 ERA in 64 innings and double the money owed to him is not remotely comparable. Especially with his injury track record.
 

simplicio

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 11, 2012
5,552
There was an athletic article this spring about Yoshida and Cora which mentioned Masa had thought he'd end up signing with Toronto. Part of his fast/expensive signing may have had to do with keeping him out of the division, beyond just avoiding a bidding war.

That the Jays then pivoted to trading for Varsho and sending Moreno to Arizona is pure icing on the cake.
 

JM3

often quoted
SoSH Member
Dec 14, 2019
15,792
Good luck with that. There were people complaining about Jon Lester's departure a few months ago.
Well, I'm trying to learn from past mistakes & avoid such inane conversations going forward. The Pro-Bloom crowd will be like omg Bloom got us such good prospects how could we possibly let him go? & then the Anti-Bloom people will be all like he sucks, look how awful our MLB team was. So many last places omg.

& everyone will be wrong, & that will all be ok as people are entitled to be wrong, no matter how aggressively they are wrong. We'll see if I can stay away from the battles between the Bresbytarians & the Brez-nos.
 

Sam Ray Not

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
8,885
NYC
my guesses in order would be Uesawa, Uezawa, Kamisawa, Kamizawa
Fwiw, I texted the kanji to the Sam-ette (born and raised in Oita) and she replied with this exact order of possibilities. She said "wow" at "Uwasawa" but then "I guess that's possible!"
 
Last edited:

jbupstate

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 1, 2022
617
New York, USA
There was an athletic article this spring about Yoshida and Cora which mentioned Masa had thought he'd end up signing with Toronto. Part of his fast/expensive signing may have had to do with keeping him out of the division, beyond just avoiding a bidding war.

That the Jays then pivoted to trading for Varsho and sending Moreno to Arizona is pure icing on the cake.
Isn’t Dombrowski praised for know what he wants and paying to get it?

Don’t tons of Red Sox fans want Breslow to pay whatever it takes to get Yamamoto?

Yoshida was someone Bloom wanted and he flexed FSG money to get it. Hopefully it works out. Part of Bloom’s departure is the lack of faith he would take the high risks associated with bringing mega free agents to Boston.
 

chrisfont9

Member
SoSH Member
Good luck with that. There were people complaining about Jon Lester's departure a few months ago.
We need a separate forum called the Court of Appeals where people can relitigate various arguments to infinity. It will seem incredibly tedious at the time but future generations will thank us for keeping well developed records.

I recall Snell ringing the bell or banging the drum as the 12th man prior to the Seahawks game. Snell is a free agent … he’s going to do what he can to make the most he can and play where he wants. Nice position to be in.
Yep, he raised the 12 flag before the Thanksgiving game vs the Niners. That's a pretty big bump to Seattle Royalty for a guy who last played here in high school. I wonder if it's a little bit of shared gamesmanship by the Seahawks and Snell's agent to put pressure on the Mariners (in exchange for the agent calling the Seahawks about some linebacker prospect or whatever). Knowing the Mariners' ownership, they will probably respond by reducing the team's FA budget.
 

Dewey'sCannon

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
872
Maryland
I'm ok with Snell going to Seattle. He's a bit of a risk and requires giving up a draft pick. And it likely frees up a SP from them in a trade, which I assume would probably be part of the Mariners' strategy in signing Snell - to then trade one of their other SPs for a bat or two (which they may view as being harder to come by). And it may explain their recent trade activity, which had the effect of lowering payroll (perhaps to accommodate Snell's salary).
 

johnlos

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 22, 2014
250
Isn’t Dombrowski praised for know what he wants and paying to get it?

Don’t tons of Red Sox fans want Breslow to pay whatever it takes to get Yamamoto?

Yoshida was someone Bloom wanted and he flexed FSG money to get it. Hopefully it works out. Part of Bloom’s departure is the lack of faith he would take the high risks associated with bringing mega free agents to Boston.
Not quite right. Dombrowski is good at convincing ownership to pony up the money it takes to get guys he wants. They weren't even in on Castellanos initially (their analytics dept. had Schwarber as a better fit and landed him already) but Dombrowski convinced ownership to go to a number and his team negotiated well. Dombrowski also doesn't do the negotiations fwiw.

That said, I hope Breslow convinces ownership to pony up for Yamamoto!!
 

chrisfont9

Member
SoSH Member
I'm ok with Snell going to Seattle. He's a bit of a risk and requires giving up a draft pick. And it likely frees up a SP from them in a trade, which I assume would probably be part of the Mariners' strategy in signing Snell - to then trade one of their other SPs for a bat or two (which they may view as being harder to come by). And it may explain their recent trade activity, which had the effect of lowering payroll (perhaps to accommodate Snell's salary).
The only downside would be him going to a team that's not otherwise in the SP sweepstakes, so you're subtracting a potential target without subtracting one of the presumed competitors for the remaining guys, but as you say, that probably increases a trade possibility, so I guess it's close to a wash?
 

Dewey'sCannon

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
872
Maryland
The only downside would be him going to a team that's not otherwise in the SP sweepstakes, so you're subtracting a potential target without subtracting one of the presumed competitors for the remaining guys, but as you say, that probably increases a trade possibility, so I guess it's close to a wash?
Snell to Seattle only seems to make sense if they are going to trade another one of their starting pitchers, so I don't think it reduces the pool of pitchers available.

And yeah, it's a trade-off, so to speak. The downside is that you have to give up talent to make a trade, but the upside is that you normally get a younger player with some team control at a lower cost. I think that's why the Red Sox are looking at a one from column A (free agent) and one from column B (trade) to pick up two SPs. Makes sense, if they can pull it off and can make a trade of the right talent (ML or prospects) for the right SP. It will be very interesting to see how this plays out.
 

pearccol

New Member
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2005
23
I'm ok with Snell going to Seattle. He's a bit of a risk and requires giving up a draft pick. And it likely frees up a SP from them in a trade, which I assume would probably be part of the Mariners' strategy in signing Snell - to then trade one of their other SPs for a bat or two (which they may view as being harder to come by). And it may explain their recent trade activity, which had the effect of lowering payroll (perhaps to accommodate Snell's salary).
i had thought the same thing. Having watched Snell here in San Diego since he got here it took him quite a while to feel comfortable after leaving Tampa. I think that he would see pitching in his hometown as a huge plus for him.

it then allows Seattle to improve in other areas by trading a young starting pitcher. I’m hoping that the Sox could work out a deal with them.