Tyrone wants to fire Farrell

Tyrone Biggums

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I feel like it's time to bump this. The Sox have the worst record in the bigs since July 5th and there's quite a bit of smoke about Farrell not having much to say about anything going on in the clubhouse. Wouldn't be the first time he's lost a team. I think the seat has to be getting very warm with the Sox finally getting knocked out of 1st tonight.
 

Tyrone Biggums

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Interesting thread title...but you can't argue against numbers and right now the numbers aren't supporting Manager John. Sometimes a team just needs a change...
 

Sprowl

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No, don't bump ancient threads. Start new threads, like this.

***

Personally, I can't see blaming Farrell for the teamwide power deficit, nor for Price's elbow woes. His bullpen management is questionable, but the results have been reasonably good (every reliever with 10+ innings pitches has an ERA less than their xFIP). Boston loves a scapegoat, to be sure, but I think the Jaw will be around for a while yet.
 

Tyrone Biggums

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No, don't bump ancient threads. Start new threads, like this.

***

Personally, I can't see blaming Farrell for the teamwide power deficit, nor for Price's elbow woes. His bullpen management is questionable, but the results have been reasonably good (every reliever with 10+ innings pitches has an ERA less than their xFIP). Boston loves a scapegoat, to be sure, but I think the Jaw will be around for a while yet.
His bullpen management sucks. I mean we can't really sugar coat that. The team is clearly not responding to him at this point. They are the worst team in the game since the beginning of the month. At some point the axe needs to fall on someone and right now Farrell's seat needs to be scorching hot.
 

soxhop411

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No, don't bump ancient threads. Start new threads, like this.

***

Personally, I can't see blaming Farrell for the teamwide power deficit, nor for Price's elbow woes. His bullpen management is questionable, but the results have been reasonably good (every reliever with 10+ innings pitches has an ERA less than their xFIP). Boston loves a scapegoat, to be sure, but I think the Jaw will be around for a while yet.

His bullpen management sucks. I mean we can't really sugar coat that. The team is clearly not responding to him at this point. They are the worst team in the game since the beginning of the month. At some point the axe needs to fall on someone and right now Farrell's seat needs to be scorching hot.
No his BP management does not suck. In fact he has been managing the BP better than he has in any other year (save for our WS year)
EDIT: and stats back it up... Our BP has allowed the FOURTH FEWEST runs per game
Only CLE/ARI and the dodgers have a better BP

EDIT 2: our Inherited runs scored % is the 5th best in baseball behind only the dodgers yankees LAA and ARZ


@Sprowl
@Tyrone Biggums

We have thrown the SECOND MOST QS's in baseball so far (59) (which is 57% of our games)

Our Pitching (both SP and BP) our the least of our issues. If anyone should be fired it should be the hitting coach.




Joe Sheehan‏ @joe_sheehan 1h1 hour ago
The #RedSox are slugging .350 in July. They haven't slugged under .350 in July since 1925 (.344).
 
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Sprowl

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His bullpen management sucks. I mean we can't really sugar coat that. The team is clearly not responding to him at this point. They are the worst team in the game since the beginning of the month. At some point the axe needs to fall on someone and right now Farrell's seat needs to be scorching hot.
So, you promise numbers, but you offer none. You hate his bullpen management, but can't say why. Evidence-based argument that isn't.
 

Tyrone Biggums

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What numbers do you have in mind?
The only ones that matter right now. Wins and losses since the beginning of the month. We can talk about xFIP we can talk about any metrics that might support the team being "unlucky" but the bottom line is that this team is underperforming across the board. Now instead of extending or maintaining a lead over the MFY they squandered it.
 

Tyrone Biggums

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So, you promise numbers, but you offer none. You hate his bullpen management, but can't say why. Evidence-based argument that isn't.
Here's an example of his pen management. To be fair he's fixed this portion of it but he spent the beginning of the season trying to shove Barnes into the setup role ahead of Kimbrel which Barnes is not equipped for. On the other hand Kelly has been a bright spot. I get that Farrell is not perfect but at what point does the manager actually take the heat for this?

At what point as the manager do you also go to Hanley and tell him to dust of his 1B mit full time since Moreland has been god awful for the better part of 2 months? Would Travis really be that much worse?
 
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CoffeeNerdness

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They're 8 games over .500 with a $200 million payroll(mediocre). He's managed for 7 seasons with win totaling 81, 73, 97, 71, 78, 93, and currently 56. 50% of the seasons he's managed have been 70 win seasons. His most successful season was 5 seasons ago. Short of an ALCS victory he's 100% done in Boston.
 

soxhop411

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you really want to fire someone, fire the Batting coach... (or hire a second hitting coach)

Here is our Offensive stats by month

Joe Sheehan‏ @joe_sheehan 2h2 hours ago
The #RedSox are slugging .350 in July. They haven't slugged under .350 in July since 1925 (.344).

We are batting .240 and slugging .350 in July. we have just an average offensive month in July we are still in first
 

j44thor

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They're 8 games over .500 with a $200 million payroll(mediocre). He's managed for 7 seasons with win totaling 81, 73, 97, 71, 78, 93, and currently 56. 50% of the seasons he's managed have been 70 win seasons. His most successful season was 5 seasons ago. Short of an ALCS victory he's 100% done in Boston.
25% of that payroll is either on the DL ( Price/Kelly/Thornburg) or released. Is it Farells fault Sandoval was a terrible signing?
 

soxhop411

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and Really our July offensive output is actually much worse if you discount the first 4 games in July (TOR/TOR and TEX) (where we scored 7/15/6/11 runs) (in these 4 games alone we scored 39 runs)

with those 4 games eliminated this is our July Offensive stats


Yes.. You read that right. Eliminate those first 4 July games and we are batting .208 and Slugging .306

And yes, we have only driven in 61 RBI from July 5th onward
 
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streeter88

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Soxhop is onto something, but I continue to be appalled by the lack of professionalism being shown by the team as a whole.

D-Dom seemed to double down on the low HR high contact strategy with the Nunez deal, but it's crazy that Duda was acquired for so much less.
Farrell is failing to motivate the team. There are no closed door team meetings, no explanations of the latest free fall, no apparent resolve. Pedroia says "I am the leader." Ok then, act like one.

I know I said I don't want to give up on this team, but there is little leadership being shown at any level from the front office on down to the players, with the possible exception of the pitching staff who must be appalled by the offense at the moment. Sack up, Sox.
 

j44thor

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Difference between the Yankees and Sox is that virtually every Yankee batter is dramatically exceeding their expectations and literally zero Red Sox batters are meeting expectations. Red Sox pitching has been the band aid holding this together.

Time to say bye to Chili.
 

CoffeeNerdness

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25% of that payroll is either on the DL ( Price/Kelly/Thornburg) or released. Is it Farells fault Sandoval was a terrible signing?
Welcome to the MLB, John. The fact that he can't do more with less isn't a point in his favor. See Belichick, Bill.
 

uk_sox_fan

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Wait - so you've decided that the "only thing that matters right now" is "wins and losses since the beginning of the month" because we all know that wins and losses in July are all-important and those in April May and June don't matter at all.

So following this logic the Sox have gone 11-13 with 104 runs scored against 86 runs allowed in July and are therefore "the worst team in baseball since the beginning of the month". So clearly in your view "the worst team in baseball" isn't defined by wins and losses or run differential so what is it?

The only thing historically bad about these Sox right now is their slugging percentage. Moreland hasn't hit since breaking his toe and Bogaerts hasn't hit since getting plunked in the hand. So Farrell should be fired for keeping guys in the lineup who wanted to play despite nagging injuries instead of forcing them to the DL and replacing them with Travis and Lin?

And what do you envision here? That someone like Jason Varitek shows up and inspires everyone to play harder? How exactly is that going to happen? The Eck story shows that this clubhouse may have a tendency to reject outsiders and band together. By no account that I've heard do they dislike Farrell so a midseason replacement is going to be welcomed with open arms and an open mind? Doesn't seem likely that that would work well at all.

Farrell has done nothing demonstrably bad except take a role that people love to criticise and blame for whatever isn't going well with the team. By any metric the pitching this year has been near the best in baseball and yet according to his critics on this site "his bullpen management sucks" and "we can't really sugar coat that".

Well, I'm sorry but that analysis sucks. He has successfully managed the 4th best bullpen in the league by FIP (sorry, you don't like stats but I prefer them to your subjective impressions of suckdom) despite not getting an inning from 2 of our 3 highest paid acquisitions and now losing his 8th inning guy for most of the month. It's only 14th best this month (sorry again, I had forgotten only July games matter) despite three games in short order going 16, 15 and 13 innings spanning a trip to the West Coast and back.

The team isn't winning as much as we'd like and there's an exciting team down the road that is playing above expectations but take a deep breath and realise that the pitching is better than the hitting is bad and they're writhing a 1/2 game of 1st which is all of 1.5 games worse than they were at the beginning of the month. Don't take a man's job for that.
 

j44thor

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Welcome to the MLB, John. The fact that he can't do more with less isn't a point in his favor. See Belichick, Bill.
Yes because the Patriots who play in the NFL with a hard salary cap and have players willing to play for a fraction of what they could make on the open market are a great comparison.
Any Pats comparison talk on the main board is stupid and lazy.
 

Murderer's Crow

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25% of that payroll is either on the DL ( Price/Kelly/Thornburg) or released. Is it Farells fault Sandoval was a terrible signing?
Price pitched well throughout the time period under discussion. His being added to the DL today is a poor argument about how the team has been performing up until now.
 

grimshaw

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I said this in another thread, but I think the only thing doing John in is a late season collapse, or if they get bounced in the first round. The lineup obviously hasn't performed. He has moved guys around at different points to varying degrees of success, but for the most part, guys know their roles, No one who is on the bench should be playing a lot more than they are, the talent is just what it is. It is on them to perform.

The leaks coming out about Price and Pedey about the Eckersley stuff, should hurt his case more than team performance. He had done a really good job in years past of keeping things in house (for this market). There have been more instances of communication breakdowns this year than I can remember during John's tenure and that's the stuff DD cares about more than in game tactics.
 

streeter88

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And what do you envision here? That someone like Jason Varitek shows up and inspires everyone to play harder? How exactly is that going to happen? The Eck story shows that this clubhouse may have a tendency to reject outsiders and band together. By no account that I've heard do they dislike Farrell so a midseason replacement is going to be welcomed with open arms and an open mind? Doesn't seem likely that that would work well at all.
Dustin Pedroia said he is the leader. I hope that we hear in a couple of weeks how he made a speech something like David Ortiz made in the 2013 ALCS, or a Brady like speech "We got to play harder. Harder tougher everything! Everything we got!!"

I get that it's a different sport, but at the moment, the energy level does not seem high, and there seems to be nobody leading by example. I know Pedroia was hot last week - keep it up. Hanley hit some too - where is he?
 

DeadlySplitter

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I think Chili is gone very soon if this ineptitude keeps happening on the offensive end. Our pitching coach from 2013 was fired in 2014 when the pitching went bottom-up. It isn't fully Chili's fault as the truth is always somewhere in-between, but we need a fresh voice to fix the swings of the B's at a minimum.

The pitching of this team has been near championship caliber, so you can't say the bottom's falling out quite yet. But if they don't win the division, I think Farrell is canned at the end of the year.
 

DeadlySplitter

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The only thing historically bad about these Sox right now is their slugging percentage. Moreland hasn't hit since breaking his toe and Bogaerts hasn't hit since getting plunked in the hand. So Farrell should be fired for keeping guys in the lineup who wanted to play despite nagging injuries instead of forcing them to the DL and replacing them with Travis and Lin?
actually, I really would say yes. playing hurt in the middle of the marathon that is the regular season is asinine and may well have cost us a few wins already. If Farrell is enabling this behavior of "gutting it out" while said action is making them terrible baseball players, that is entirely on the coaching staff.
 

Tyrone Biggums

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I think Chili is gone very soon if this ineptitude keeps happening on the offensive end. Our pitching coach from 2013 was fired in 2014 when the pitching went bottom-up. It isn't fully Chili's fault as the truth is always somewhere in-between, but we need a fresh voice to fix the swings of the B's at a minimum.

The pitching of this team has been near championship caliber, so you can't say the bottom's falling out quite yet. But if they don't win the division, I think Farrell is canned at the end of the year.
Chili needs to be just as accountable for the offense being underwhelming all year. My issues are the following

-Despite the 4th best bullpen as has been pointed out small things such as Kimbrel not coming in for 4 out saves. Barnes coming in during the 8th etc bother me personally. Numbers are skewed due to amazing seasons from Kimbrel and Kelly.

-Farrell refuses to tell Hanley to play 1st keeping a possible upgrade for Moreland on the bench. The upgrade? Chris Young who is going through his own slump but not nearly as bad as Mitch. Sam Travis maybe? Moreland needs to get sat down for a few games and for whatever reason manager John likes keeping him around.

-Nine lives of Doug Fister. I get that DD has some say with this as well but Farrell has control over lineups rotations and what not. Why does he keep sticking with this guy?

-Most importantly this team has sucked all month and you've never really gotten the feeling they've played up to their potential at all this year. Fangraphs might like them but there is something wrong with this teams character. I get the feeling with all the things that have come out this year between the Farrell articles and the stuff leaking out about Price that Farrell isn't well respected.

Again just my opinion if this team rails off 10 straight gets to the playoffs and makes noise I'll be more than happy to admit I was wrong for even questioning Manager John. But his seat has to be getting hot for the crap performance.
 

CoffeeNerdness

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Yes because the Patriots who play in the NFL with a hard salary cap and have players willing to play for a fraction of what they could make on the open market are a great comparison.
Any Pats comparison talk on the main board is stupid and lazy.
Sorry, but the loss of Joe F'n Kelly, a guy who went on the DL yesterday, and Thornburg, who's never pitched in the AL, as some sort of woe-is-Farrell tale is what's lazy and stupid here. Particularly since the bullpen and pitching in general is this team's relative strength.
 

bosockboy

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Farrell will not be let go in season, and the injuries are beyond his control. However, they also do a lot of things fundamentally poor such as running into outs on the base paths at a very high rate. I think they need some fresh leadership.

Last year's strong year in retrospect probably cost them Lovullo, who is killing it in AZ. If things crater as they are seeming to now Farrell will likely be gone this fall.
 

j44thor

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Chili needs to be just as accountable for the offense being underwhelming all year. My issues are the following

-Despite the 4th best bullpen as has been pointed out small things such as Kimbrel not coming in for 4 out saves. Barnes coming in during the 8th etc bother me personally. Numbers are skewed due to amazing seasons from Kimbrel and Kelly.

-Farrell refuses to tell Hanley to play 1st keeping a possible upgrade for Moreland on the bench. The upgrade? Chris Young who is going through his own slump but not nearly as bad as Mitch. Sam Travis maybe? Moreland needs to get sat down for a few games and for whatever reason manager John likes keeping him around.

-Nine lives of Doug Fister. I get that DD has some say with this as well but Farrell has control over lineups rotations and what not. Why does he keep sticking with this guy?
Kimbrel himself has said he prefers to pitch one inning even though he has been used 5X for 1+ innings.

Hanley played 1st last night just like he did a few days ago. Do you bother to watch the games or even check the box score or do you just look at the score and complain?
 

Tyrone Biggums

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Kimbrel himself has said he prefers to pitch one inning even though he has been used 5X for 1+ innings.

Hanley played 1st last night just like he did a few days ago. Do you bother to watch the games or even check the box score or do you just look at the score and complain?
How many games has he played at first this year? The point is just because he plays once in a great while at first doesn't make it okay that it seems like Farrell is letting these guys dictate things. Kimbrel can say all he wants that he prefers to pitch one inning but if Farrell sees a spot where the team has to win and can use him for 4-5 hitters then why not?

Hanley right now should be the primary first baseman. Rotate the DH spot with Nunez Young and whoever needs a day off in the field. The perception is there that the inmates run the asylum and dictate to Manager John what they'll do and what they won't do. There is no excuse to keep running Moreland out there as the primary 1st baseman.

This team has zero leadership. None. The manager doesn't seem to want to rock the boat either. This season just seems like 2011 all over again. If Francona wasn't safe then neither should Farrell. Granted the team hasn't collapsed like that one did but Farrell also has a track record of 1 championship a few subpar seasons after that and a playoff appearance where the team got killed by Cleveland. This isn't exactly a top manager in the game.

Sometimes a different voice is much needed.
 
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charlieoscar

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Loose count (just what bb-ref lists in their play-by-play after games) but the Red Sox have about 107 infield singles this season. That would be about 16.7% of their singles.

A few of these are bunts and a handful are line drives off a fielder to the outfield but logged as an infield hit. I'll see if I can pull this out from Retrosheet data for previous seasons but the percentage strikes me as high.
 

Buzzkill Pauley

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25% of that payroll is either on the DL ( Price/Kelly/Thornburg) or released. Is it Farells fault Sandoval was a terrible signing?
No, but if you believe Farrell wasn't centrally involved in the staff discussions that led Dombrowski to make the Shaw-for-Thornburg trade, I have an ocean-front property in Kansas for you.

Sometimes as a GM you have to make hard decisions in building a team in the offseason. But this wasn't one of those times, because there were probably 75 different bullpen arms who could have been a decent option to set up Kimbrel, including simply bringing Koji back one more year. Now I'll admit Dombrowski got a statistically good pitcher in Thornburg, and no one on the Red Sox bears responsibility for how little it looks like the Sox are going to get out of Thornburg because of his medical condition, but the analysis of Farrell surely must have factored heavily into the decision to make Shaw expendable.

As for proof -- well, we know the Sox involve Farrell in post-season staff meetings on team building, because all teams in baseball involve their field manager in such discussions. We know that DDski values the input of Farrell through his public statements of confidence in Farrell. And well, it's not that surprising that the Red Sox staff would have a lower opinion of Shaw -- he wasn't a sexy prospect in a system that had tons of "better" ones -- but it's a shame.

And although Dombrowski bears final responsibility for putting together the parameters of the trade, Farrell certainly was involved in the off-season strategy setting it up as necessary. Considering how he still relies on Brock Holt to be the Red Sox's Josh Harrison, it's pretty obvious that Farrell believed him a strong enough back-up plan that 3B would be okay if Panda sucked, once again, even after the team got rid of Shaw and Moncada in the same offseason. Whoops.
 

streeter88

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When teams that were supposed to win fail, owners often look for someone to blame. D-Dom outranks Farrell, who is not his guy anyway. If Farrell is smart, he looks for a scapegoat now, and fires Chili. At least then he was still trying.

And bosockboy is 100% right about the outs on the base path. Sox lead MLB in base running outs in total, and at third and home. And Lovullo's Dbacks have the fewest base running outs in MLB.

Edit: here is the link to b-ref stat on base running outs. https://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/MLB/2017-baserunning-batting.shtml
Edit: added point about Lovullo.
 
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Red(s)HawksFan

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How many games has he played at first this year? The point is just because he plays once in a great while at first doesn't make it okay that it seems like Farrell is letting these guys dictate things. Kimbrel can say all he wants that he prefers to pitch one inning but if Farrell sees a spot where the team has to win and can use him for 4-5 hitters then why not?

Hanley right now should be the primary first baseman. Rotate the DH spot with Nunez Young and whoever needs a day off in the field. The perception is there that the inmates run the asylum and dictate to Manager John what they'll do and what they won't do. There is no excuse to keep running Moreland out there as the primary 1st baseman.
In the last 10 games, Hanley has played 1B in five of them, four of which were against LHP. Pedroia, Nunez, and Young are among those who have DHed in those games. Essentially, in the last couple weeks, they've adopted exactly the plan we expected all year with the two positions. A plan that, because of Hanley's shoulder, wasn't an option earlier in the season. So it appears that Moreland is no longer the primary 1B, he's part of a platoon.

As for Kimbrel, how many games has the team lost primarily because Kimbrel wasn't used for more than 3 outs? Because as far as I can tell, there have been few games resulting in a loss that could have been won by using Kimbrel in the 8th and they didn't do it.
 

RedOctober3829

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I think the struggles on offense go higher up than Farrell. Dombrowski did not adequately replace Ortiz even when a player like Edwin Encanarcion's price plummeted. We all expected a dip in runs scored but not this bad. Guys aren't performing to expectations but DD should've added a power bat to the team to help offset the loss of Ortiz.
 

charlieoscar

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Loose count (just what bb-ref lists in their play-by-play after games) but the Red Sox have about 107 infield singles this season. That would be about 16.7% of their singles.

A few of these are bunts and a handful are line drives off a fielder to the outfield but logged as an infield hit. I'll see if I can pull this out from Retrosheet data for previous seasons but the percentage strikes me as high.
Having looked at Retrosheet play-by-play files I found that the number of infield hits is not high for the Red Sox based on 2015 and 2016 data, which I must admit surprised me. They had 191 in 2015 and 171 in 2016, both of which work out to a higher per game rate. Early this season it struck me that they were getting a lot of infield hits so I started tracking them: they had 59 after 45 games but have since slowed down.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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I think the struggles on offense go higher up than Farrell. Dombrowski did not adequately replace Ortiz even when a player like Edwin Encanarcion's price plummeted. We all expected a dip in runs scored but not this bad. Guys aren't performing to expectations but DD should've added a power bat to the team to help offset the loss of Ortiz.
Encarnacion's price never dropped to a point where he fit in the Red Sox budget. They don't want to exceed the luxury tax threshold and no amount of wishing they would is going to change that.
 

the1andonly3003

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Dustin Pedroia said he is the leader. I hope that we hear in a couple of weeks how he made a speech something like David Ortiz made in the 2013 ALCS, or a Brady like speech "We got to play harder. Harder tougher everything! Everything we got!!"

I get that it's a different sport, but at the moment, the energy level does not seem high, and there seems to be nobody leading by example. I know Pedroia was hot last week - keep it up. Hanley hit some too - where is he?
This team needs a Nomar-esque trade to wake them up. I am looking at you, Dustin.
 

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When teams that were supposed to win fail, owners often look for someone to blame. D-Dom outranks Farrell, who is not his guy anyway. If Farrell is smart, he looks for a scapegoat now, and fires Chili. At least then he was still trying.

And bosockboy is 100% right about the outs on the base path. Sox lead MLB in base running outs in total, and at third and home. And Lovullo's Dbacks have the fewest base running outs in MLB.

Edit: here is the link to b-ref stat on base running outs. https://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/MLB/2017-baserunning-batting.shtml
Edit: added point about Lovullo.
Is this baserunning number significant without context? The Red Sox have a decent OBP, don't strike out a lot, don't hit home runs, and try to manufacture runs however they can. Aren't outs on the bases a relatively obvious risk associated with this type of team?
Number two on the list is Houston, who seems to be having a pretty good year. Their OBP is best in the league and they strike out less than any other team in the league. They also lead the league in home runs, so they don't clog the bases nearly as much as the Sox, but is it surprising that having a lot of guys on base and putting the ball in play will lead to outs on the bases? Especially when the team doesn't clear the bases with home runs often? Or is Houston a shitty baserunning team too?

EDIT--the Yankees are third on the list. They're 5th in OBP, but also 6th in home runs and have the 7th most strikeouts in the league. Now that seems like a bad baserunning team.
 
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Red(s)HawksFan

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This team needs a Nomar-esque trade to wake them up. I am looking at you, Dustin.
FWIW, Nomar wasn't traded to "wake up" the team. And considering this team's deficiencies, I don't think it would be wise to trade the one player on the team performing more or less to his career norms at the plate.
 

RedOctober3829

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Encarnacion's price never dropped to a point where he fit in the Red Sox budget. They don't want to exceed the luxury tax threshold and no amount of wishing they would is going to change that.
The difference between him and Moreland in '17 is 8.5 million. They would've stayed under the tax. There's long term ramifications that you can argue against making this deal but he could've fit under the tax this year.
 

joe dokes

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When teams that were supposed to win fail, owners often look for someone to blame. D-Dom outranks Farrell, who is not his guy anyway. If Farrell is smart, he looks for a scapegoat now, and fires Chili. At least then he was still trying.

And bosockboy is 100% right about the outs on the base path. Sox lead MLB in base running outs in total, and at third and home. And Lovullo's Dbacks have the fewest base running outs in MLB.

Edit: here is the link to b-ref stat on base running outs. https://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/MLB/2017-baserunning-batting.shtml
Edit: added point about Lovullo.
I don't think "number of outs" is the right way to analyze this.

https://www.overthemonster.com/2017/7/23/16015288/the-red-sox-strange-season-on-the-bases
 

charlieoscar

Member
Sep 28, 2014
1,339
Edit: added point about Lovullo.
In 2015 I felt that Lovullo should have stayed on as Red Sox manager but there is no way that the club would have fired Farrell after it was learned that he had lymphoma and not just a hernia.

While I think it is time to move on from Farrell, I can't lay all the blame at his feet. The people running this club seem to have a knack for signing pitchers who can't stay healthy, players who don't fit with the club or with the city, players with very high bonuses/contracts, players who have proven worthless to the club.
 

canderson

Mr. Brightside
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
39,636
Harrisburg, Pa.
I think the struggles on offense go higher up than Farrell. Dombrowski did not adequately replace Ortiz even when a player like Edwin Encanarcion's price plummeted. We all expected a dip in runs scored but not this bad. Guys aren't performing to expectations but DD should've added a power bat to the team to help offset the loss of Ortiz.
I subscribe to your thesis.

This team has a failed roster - that isn't Farrell's fault. I'm not really a Farrell guy but he isn't costing this team too many extra wins that anyone else in his spot would.

The construction of this team is subpar imo. That's on management.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

Member
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Jan 23, 2009
20,932
Maine
The difference between him and Moreland in '17 is 8.5 million. They would've stayed under the tax. There's long term ramifications that you can argue against making this deal but he could've fit under the tax this year.
No, the difference, in luxury tax calculations, between Moreland and Encarnacion is $14.5M. Encarnacion signed for 3 years and $60M, which is a $20M AAV. AAV is the important number for luxury tax purposes, not the individual year's salary.

But even if you go with his 2017 salary rather than AAV, and the difference is $8M, that leaves them even less room for mid-season additions than they have now. And clearly they're limited in what they can do with what they have, so they'd be in worse shape to address 3B or the bullpen.
 

Lawrose

New Member
Jul 25, 2017
6
Unfortunately there probably isn't a manager out there who can save this team during the season. But, if Farrell can't get his offense to play better than he ought to be replaced during the off-season. Part of the manager's job is to get the best from his players. Farrell is failing at that. I remember when Farrell got sick, Lovullo came in and all of a sudden the team got a lot better. And yes, he should have put Bogaerts and Moreland on the disabled list. Players always want to play even if they are hurt. But putting in a player who can't hit due to injury doesn't help the team. Farrell has now done that with Moreland and Bogaerts.
 

sean1562

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 17, 2011
3,659
The team rises and falls with the Bs. They are young they may improve next year, but I really don't think this is"our year". Get to the playoffs, see how far sale and Kimbrel can carry us. Maybe devers is amazing and Carson smith comes back as a top setup guy? The team is what it is this year. No trade will make this team better than the astros dodgers or nationals.
 

Mueller's Twin Grannies

critical thinker
SoSH Member
Dec 19, 2009
9,386
This team needs a Nomar-esque trade to wake them up. I am looking at you, Dustin.
As RedOctober pointed out above, Nomahhhh wasn't dealt to be a shot in the arm, but rather because he was underperforming, miserable, and was being painted (inaccurately or otherwise) as a malcontent in the locker room. Dustin Pedroia is exactly zero of those things (his misery is more surliness than anything else). There is no one else on the team that can even be remotely compared to Nomar Garciaparra. If they deal one of their "big name" players (which is really the only comp to Nomar you can make), it will either be a player who is playing well, which is not addition by subtraction, or a player who isn't but has a good track record or projects to be better and might just be having a tough year. Trading Dustin Pedroia would likely kill any chance this team has of making it to another postseason. Simply put, there's nobody else who has the veteran presence he has or that is the pseudo face-of-the-franchise that he has somewhat been defaulted as with Ortiz having ridden off into the sunset.

Also, even if they did have a Nomar-type player, what kind of deal are you looking to make? Nomar was dealt for Mientkiewicz and Cabera, both of whom were superior fielders at their position (and Cabrera blew Nomar's "defense" away when he arrived) but lesser players in terms of name value. Thers's also the money aspect: Nomar, despite being a superstar, was not making the superstar-level money that Manny, his own teammate, was making. Pedroia's on a good deal, but is still a solid fielder at his position; who is out there that would be better at 2B for Boston? Or do you want to install Devers at 2B? That still doesn't solve the 3B problem, either or the growing problem at 1B that stems from having a Gold Glove defender who can't move around really well and is mired in a slump at the plate and a backup who is primarily a DH (boy, does that sound familiar) and isn't particularly good at fielding his secondary position, with an added wrinkle of being incredibly streaky at the plate and having a rep for not always putting forth the best effort on a daily basis. The Nomar deal was the perfect storm: a player with a track record who still had upside for two defensive-minded players, but it still took four teams to make the whole thing happen.

What the team needs is for the players to play better, the coaches to coach better, the manager to manage better, and for those who are hurt to get better and produce when they come back. Short of that, there's no trade that can be made that will suddenly flip the offensive switch or make guys stop running into outs. I'd love Boston to get a new manager too, but, as I said in another thread, he's not getting fired in-season unless he does something truly egregious or it becomes clear that he has completely lost the clubhouse and the players are doing their own thing (which may be the case, but a spat with a TV commentator and one player assuming a public leadership role - and do we really want a player like Dustin Pedroia shying away from a leadership role? - do not constitute "clear" to me). I don't think this ownership believes in changing horses mid-stream and will evaluate his value as field manager at the end of the season like they do everything else. Letting a coach go is a little different, but that's about as far as they've shown they're willing to go and even that is little more than a public flogging. Plus they recently picked up Farrell's option (yes, they kind of had to, but that's aside from the point and obviously means they didn't want him to feel like he was managing for his job this year) and announced this big thing with him that I cannot now find on Google but sounded like something that was going to be starting next year. That may not stop them and shouldn't, but there are a lot of signs that suggest that not only does ownership like having him in the dugout but that there are big plans for him from an organizational standpoint. Firing him probably puts an end to that and they can't ask him to assume a new role mid-season. If they miss the playoffs this year or get knocked out early again as anything other than a Wild Card team, I think they have a conversation with him in the offseason about maybe shifting to a front office job, which I recall being rumored back when he was last on the hot seat and there was talk of Torey Lovullo assuming his duties. Then he got cancer and everything changed. But we can't assume they will change back now that he's healthy and the team is showing signs of trouble. We're stuck with him unless he violates the law or commits some massive baseball sin, at least until the offseason. Then we'll see.
 

BoSoxLady

Rules Red Sox Nation with an Iron Fist
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 24, 2003
3,449
Farrell is playing the hand he's been dealt.

The outs on the bases are maddening however, when the team has a crappy offense, the runners have to be aggressive. I prefer being aggressive rather than station-to-station. They have to make things happen but be smarter about it.

Injuries are killing them. Xander's hand has already impacted his swing and unless he sits for a while, the already weak offense will get worse.

I don't get worked up about Farrell but making the post-season last year cost us Lovullo. He was waiting in the wings. I don't hear anything negative about DiSarcina but perhaps his style is different than Lovullo's and the clubhouse isn't responding.

Lots of time left but they need to get their act in gear.
 
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johnnywayback

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 8, 2004
1,422
The team is struggling because a) Betts, Ramirez, and Benintendi have all been merely very good instead of the great we expected coming into the season; b) Moreland and Bogaerts got hurt and have fallen off a cliff; c) we have had offensive black holes at C and 3B.

I think Farrell is a mediocre manager at best, but I don't think you can blame him for any of that. Indeed, when it comes to the things I've faulted him for in the past (mostly bullpen management, but also his stubborn adherence to playing veterans over rookies), he's been better.

As for the clubhouse chemistry stuff, we really don't know. The idea that someone needs to give a movie speech and then things will get better strikes me as really silly. Lack of motivation isn't what makes Hanley Ramirez's shoulder hurt when he plays the field, and it isn't what makes Mookie Betts hit too many pop-ups, and it isn't what sapped the strength in Bogaerts's hand, and it isn't what makes Deven Marrero a terrible hitter. If anything, it looks to my eye like the team is playing too hard -- running into too many outs trying to make things happen. But we aren't in there, and we don't know, and it's dumb to pretend that we do.

So, no, I don't think that firing Farrell or radically shaking up the roster will fix the actual problems on this team. Which is not to say I wouldn't be up for using a disappointing finish as an excuse to go hire a better manager (Alex Cora!!!).
 

BestGameEvah

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 21, 2012
1,089
When teams that were supposed to win fail, owners often look for someone to blame. D-Dom outranks Farrell, who is not his guy anyway. If Farrell is smart, he looks for a scapegoat now, and fires Chili. At least then he was still trying.

And bosockboy is 100% right about the outs on the base path. Sox lead MLB in base running outs in total, and at third and home. And Lovullo's Dbacks have the fewest base running outs in MLB.

Edit: here is the link to b-ref stat on base running outs. https://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/MLB/2017-baserunning-batting.shtml
Edit: added point about Lovullo.
Two points:
Lovullo has inherited a first base coach, Dave McKay, the baserunning coach, who is continuing his work from last yr, a very successful year.

Is in his fourth season as the D-backs' first base coach and 34th on a Major League coaching staff …also specializes in outfield and baserunning instruction...In 2016, Arizona led the Majors with a 81.5 stolen base pct. (168 attempts) and tied the franchise record with 137 stolen bases…Chris Owings was also the first D-back to lead the Majors in stolen base pct. (91.3; 23-for-25)...

And, we were supposed to be a better baserunning team this year without Ortiz and a full year of Benny. Butter is pushing the envelope, just like he did last year, but the mistakes have been there.
Quantifying the outs at home:
4 players <Leon, d'Arnaud, Hanley and Betts> have run through a STOP sign, 3 of them OUT.
Lots of CONTACT plays- I count 8 but have not seen every game till the end!
A botched squeeze play JBJ<back to the pitcher>
a kick back on a passed ball for Hanley and a couple cluster f**ks by Young and Pedroia