This is now: BB and the direction of the Patriots

[ShaneTrot]

I’d keep Henry for sure. I’d be fine keeping Onwenu and Rhamondre. I’m not sure anyone else is worth salvaging but I’m open to hearing arguments.

Edit: if healthy I’d keep Bourne and Douglas too. So make it 6-8 guys if they’re healthy, but an ACL and two concussions doesn’t feel great.

I am not a fan of Henry, no YAC and he cannot block worth a lick.
Lazar has been banging the drum that a big mistake was not signing THuney long term as that was when the offensive line started to crack and in a pinch he is a decent tackle plus you just cannot let good players that you developed and drafted (or were UDFAs) continue to walk. Jakobi is the WR version of this screw-up.
The defense is good because most of these guys are solid, have been in the system for years, they know what's expected of them, and are not asked to do things they are incapable of doing. They are coached and used properly, the offense is the exact opposite situation.

 

[johnmd20]

If your two best WR are Kendrick Bourne and Pop Douglas, that’s a problem.

The entire offense is a problem, across the board.

 

[Salva135]

The team isn't winning anything with a backup QB. It was always ride-or-die with Mac.

The point that an average QB has them in the playoff race is to point out that people calling for BB's head are taking part in a witch hunt.
The point is, the one thing no one can blame BB for is drafting Mac or sticking with him in year 3.

So if an average QB has them in the playoff race, let's slow down on burning the coach at the proverbial stake

WTF, yes, you absolutely can. The Pats could have done a number of things during that draft to get a different guy if they didn't really want Mac. But he's partially here because he fell to them, and he's partially here because he fit the offensive scheme that BB wanted to run. And I already pointed out that sticking with Mac this year is partially due to the terrible organizational decisions that were made the year prior.

Some of you act like Mac Jones dropped out of the fucking sky and ruined everything for BB that was otherwise going well.

 

[NickEsasky]

Yes, you've definitely tried to keep it light.

Your first reply to me included the sure sign of the pompous ahole, "Did you even watch the game?"

Very light.

I was actually curious because I am not sure how someone could watch the tackles play horribly and the receivers drop balls right on their hands, including one that would have gone for 6 and say “it’s all on the QB play”

 

[mcpickl]

Hows that working out for the chargers this year, who have much better weapons on offense btw.

Are you agreeing with me?

Because they are an average-ish team in contention for a playoff spot.

And, do the Chargers have a really good defense?

 

[johnmd20]

Are you agreeing with me?

Because they are an average-ish team in contention for a playoff spot.

And, do the Chargers have a really good defense?

Chargers are 5-7.

 

[Silverdude2167]

WTF, yes, you absolutely can. The Pats could have done a number of things during that draft to get a different guy if they didn't really want Mac. But he's partially here because he fell to them, and he's partially here because he fit the offensive scheme that BB wanted to run. And I already pointed out that sticking with Mac this year is partially due to the terrible organizational decisions that were made the year prior.

Some of you act like Mac Jones dropped out of the fucking sky and ruined everything for BB that was otherwise going well.

Are you going to be the first person on this board to say they should not have drafted Mac, or did you want them to move on from Mac after last year? Because I don't think I heard anyone saying those things.

So now we are mad at BB for doing what everyone thought he should have done?

 

[Silverdude2167]

Alright, this has been fun.

I will see you all back here next week when the Pats find a way to lose 2-0 to Pitt next week.

 

[mcpickl]

I was actually curious because I am not sure how someone could watch the tackles play horribly and the receivers drop balls right on their hands, including one that would have gone for 6 and say “it’s all on the QB play”

I think it's because, no one says “it’s all on the QB play”

SJH, and now me and others, are saying the difference between what this is and an average-ish team is all on the QB play.

You see, if the QB play is good you can overcome "the tackles play horribly and the receivers drop balls right on their hands" because your margin for error is much larger.

 

[IdiotKicker]

I think you are harsh on the O-line a bit, but yeah. I also think one good draft fixes a lot of those holes and this team is good again next year. And that is why I give BB one more shot. Others don't trust his drafting, which I get, but I still believe.

The issue I have is that BB had a chance to do all this building for the last 4 years and this is where we are. Why am I trusting him with another rebuild when he hasn’t been successful on this one? What is going to be different? That’s my hang up more than anything else.

 

[Rico Guapo]

Are you agreeing with me?

Because they are an average-ish team in contention for a playoff spot.

And, do the Chargers have a really good defense?

They're on the outside looking in, even after todays win against the awful patriots, despite having decent weapons and a good QB. So no, I'm not agreeing with you.

The Patriots have zero weapons on offense and two turnstiles at the tackle position. Even with a good QB this team still sucks.

 

[j44thor]

If they play a 3-WR offense, here's who I'd keep from this year's squad moving forward (forget the contract situation, I'm just talking about the PLAYER):

RB Rhamondre
WR Douglas
TE Henry (I'd love an upgrade but that's the least of their concerns on offense)
G Strange
T Onwenu

So that's five guys I'd keep (six if I include Zeke because he's been a pretty competent backup). I want 3/5 of a new OL, two starting caliber WRs (including a true #1 WR), and obviously a new QB. Big overhaul of course, but there's some guys on the current offense that are solid.

Henry is a UFA and I see no need to bring him back in 24. He is a below average receiving TE that offers nothing as a blocker.
Unfortunately NE is stuck with JuJu and Parker next year unless they can convince a team to trade for either of them because if they just cut them they will receive very little cap relief.
NE will probably need to attach a draft pick to move either of them unless they take back an equally bad contract. This offense needs a rebuild and unfortunately the worst offenders they are kind of stuck with for 24.

 

[mcpickl]

Chargers are 5-7.

Yes, I also have the ESPN app on my phone, thanks

5-7 is average-ish. It's literally one game below dead on average.

Even with a much worse defense than the Pats, they have a positive point differential.

What do you think the Chargers/Pats records would look like if Herbert was here, and Mac/Zappe were there?

 

[BaseballJones]

I think it's because, no one says “it’s all on the QB play”

SJH, and now me and others, are saying the difference between what this is and an average-ish team is all on the QB play.

You see, if the QB play is good you can overcome "the tackles play horribly and the receivers drop balls right on their hands" because your margin for error is much larger.

SJH has literally said it's ALL on Mac. Whether that was hyperbole borne out of frustration or his true feelings, I don't know. But he's definitely said that.

 

[NickEsasky]

I think it's because, no one says “it’s all on the QB play”

SJH, and now me and others, are saying the difference between what this is and an average-ish team is all on the QB play.

You see, if the QB play is good you can overcome "the tackles play horribly and the receivers drop balls right on their hands" because your margin for error is much larger.

You’re assuming the better quarterback play would automatically elevate the rest of the offense but that’s not necessarily true. Maybe a QB who doesn’t panic in the face of pressure and gets more balls out get saddled with more drops or receivers running the wrong route. Or maybe said QB is on IR because his O-line got him killed.

 

[NickEsasky]

SJH has literally said it's ALL on Mac. Whether that was hyperbole borne out of frustration or his true feelings, I don't know. But he's definitely said that.

Jesus finally thank you! He’s literally spelled out those exact words here dozens of times. So I was having a little fun at his expense then the Bill brigade got all worked up and started calling me babe.

 

[mcpickl]

They're on the outside looking in, even after todays win against the awful patriots, despite having decent weapons and a good QB. So no, I'm not agreeing with you.

The Patriots have zero weapons on offense and two turnstiles at the tackle position. Even with a good QB this team still sucks.

With a good QB, they are at least where the Chargers are.

Average-ish. Right in the middle of the pack.

 

[lexrageorge]

Like, their receivers had chances to make big plays today on good throws from Zappe. They didn’t. They are atrocious across the board and need at least 8 new offensive starters, probably closer to 10.

I'm convinced the receiver corps without Bourne & Douglas is bottom of the league bad, as in 32 of 32. Tight ends are only marginally better (Henry is a JAG at best). OL is near bottom as well, but does at least have some good players in Onwenu and Andrews. Trent Brown seems destined to be battling injuries the rest of his career.

It really is that bad.

 

[mcpickl]

SJH has literally said it's ALL on Mac. Whether that was hyperbole borne out of frustration or his true feelings, I don't know. But he's definitely said that.

He literally hasn't.

We have a search function here. I just used it on his posts. Just in this thread alone, he says multiple times that Zappe also sucks, but sometimes you just have to try something else. He doesn't say, if you replace Mac with Zappe we're off to the races! He's talking about replacing the bad QB play we've gotten, with good QB play.

He's talking about being held hostage by the QB position. A position that until today, had predominantly been manned by Mac this season.

 

[Salva135]

Are you going to be the first person on this board to say they should not have drafted Mac, or did you want them to move on from Mac after last year? Because I don't think I heard anyone saying those things.

So now we are mad at BB for doing what everyone thought he should have done?

They watched Mac and Zappe play very poor football in 2022 and brought the same QB room back this year and did nothing as this season sunk into the abyss.

I'm not mad at BB for any of his decisions, really. I'm looking at the totality of them over the last 3 years and saying this is way more complicated than "Mac sucks, BB got unlucky, let's spin the wheel again."

 

[johnmd20]

Yes, I also have the ESPN app on my phone, thanks

5-7 is average-ish. It's literally one game below dead on average.

Even with a much worse defense than the Pats, they have a positive point differential.

What do you think the Chargers/Pats records would look like if Herbert was here, and Mac/Zappe were there?

Your math is as faulty as your tact.

 

[lexrageorge]

Henry is a UFA and I see no need to bring him back in 24. He is a below average receiving TE that offers nothing as a blocker.
Unfortunately NE is stuck with JuJu and Parker next year unless they can convince a team to trade for either of them because if they just cut them they will receive very little cap relief.
NE will probably need to attach a draft pick to move either of them unless they take back an equally bad contract. This offense needs a rebuild and unfortunately the worst offenders they are kind of stuck with for 24.

Parker is only $6M in dead cap, and JuJu (or both) could easily be cut after 6/1.

 

[mcpickl]

You’re assuming the better quarterback play would automatically elevate the rest of the offense but that’s not necessarily true. Maybe a QB who doesn’t panic in the face of pressure and gets more balls out get saddled with more drops or receivers running the wrong route. Or maybe said QB is on IR because his O-line got him killed.

Yes, I'm assuming good QB play would make the offense better than bad QB play.

I am assuming that, you've got me there,

 

[mcpickl]

Your math is as faulty as your tact.

I noticed you didn't answer the question there?

What happened?

Didn't fit your argument?

 

[johnmd20]

I noticed you didn't answer the question there?

What happened?

Didn't fit your argument?

Your shifting the goal posts is sad. You claimed the Pats would have a great record with a great QB. The Chargers, with a great QB, have a terrible record. Then you shifted to, "Well, how would the Pats be with Herbert," like he could easily be fit under the cap. You also claimed the Chargers are in the playoff hunt. They have a 6% chance to make the playoffs. You said they were average. They are 5-7. Then you said 5-7 is actually average. . . .ish. Which it literally isn't.

I think shifting the goalposts all over is poor, so you don't deserve an answer. You're also being an asshole and that's not helping.

 

[NickEsasky]

Yes, I'm assuming good QB play would make the offense better than bad QB play.

I am assuming that, you've got me there,

Again, Zappe didn’t drop a sure touchdown today or somehow manage to not get his second foot down via some Twister maneuver. He also didn’t make his two tackles turn into turnstiles. Yes with better QB play this team might win a couple of the games where they gave up 10 or less bit or still doesn’t make them a good offense.

 

[j44thor]

Parker is only $6M in dead cap, and JuJu (or both) could easily be cut after 6/1.

JuJu has a guaranteed 7M salary for 24, cutting after 6/1 leaves 9M dead cap and saves you 1M.
Parker isn't quite as bad but will still leave a decent amount of dead cap space for little savings. The guarantees are what leave you with the trade as they only route to moving one that makes sense.

 

[Salva135]

If all this team needed was Andy Dalton or Derek Carr to be in playoff contention, why didn't BB make one of those moves? Why is he trotting Mac and Zappe out there if that's all they need?

How are you saying this team is average QB play away from 4-5 more wins and not fucking outraged that BB hasn't come to the same conclusion in his evaluation of the team and done whatever was needed?

 

[BaseballJones]

He literally hasn't.

We have a search function here. I just used it on his posts. Just in this thread alone, he says multiple times that Zappe also sucks, but sometimes you just have to try something else. He doesn't say, if you replace Mac with Zappe we're off to the races! He's talking about replacing the bad QB play we've gotten, with good QB play.

He's talking about being held hostage by the QB position. A position that until today, had predominantly been manned by Mac this season.

Some quotes from SJH on Mac:

Mac is by far the biggest issue on the team and spending one second bemoaning anything else on the club is a spectacular waste of time in my opinion. He's so bad you cannot even begin to evaluate the rest of the players.

No, it's the QB who is historically bad. He literally can't throw ten yards downfield. I've seen clips posted on Twitter, etc. Guys are open. Maybe not Tyreek Hill open, but open nonetheless. The QB cannot get them the ball, refuses to pull the trigger on reads, and is generally killing this organization single-handedly.

When are we going to just accept this? The OL has been vastly improved since moving Onwenu to RT. They aren't the Hogs but they are playing much, much better. Mac has gotten NFL time. He simply is unable to do anything with it.

The QB is by far the most important player on the field and the Patriots are getting sub high-school level play from theirs.

I am not saying the Pats would have a great offense with a Dalton at QB. I am saying that they have the very worst offense any of us have ever seen because Mac is the QB, and that concerns about weapons would be vastly minimized if they had an NFL-level QB taking snaps.

Mac is killing them, in every possible way. Get him gone and magically their team would look infinitely better. I guarantee it. At the very least a Dalton wins them the WAS, IND, and NYG games, all of which were lost because Mac fucking sucked.

Strongly disagree. I think the line and weapons would be ok with a league-average QB. Not great, but not bad either. Onwenu at RT has made an enormous difference to the OL. And watching the games, WRs are open. There are plays to be made. Mac can't make them.

It's 100% on Mac. All of it. The entirety of why this team is shitty this season is because Mac Jones is their QB. On this hill I will die forever.

I could go on and on but it's all there, using SOSH's amazing search function.

 

[mcpickl]

Your shifting the goal posts is sad. You claimed the Pats would have a great record with a great QB. The Chargers, with a great QB, have a terrible record. Then you shifted to, "Well, how would the Pats be with Herbert," like he could easily be fit under the cap. You also claimed the Chargers are in the playoff hunt. They have a 6% chance to make the playoffs. You said they were average. They are 5-7. Then you said 5-7 is actually average. . . .ish. Which it literally isn't.

I think shifting the goalposts all over is poor, so you don't deserve an answer. You're also being an asshole and that's not helping.

Please show me where I said that and we'll decide who is the sad guy shifting the goal posts.

 

[j44thor]

People seem to think a mythical "average" QB is going to magically make this offense average. The problem with that thinking is you need a significantly above average QB to make this offense look anything remotely close to average. Mahomes would struggle with this offense. There is virtually no speed outside of a small gadget WR with hands of stone who can't run a route to save his life. You have a bunch of contested catch specialists which lead to a lot of 50/50 balls. When your best WR is an undersized slot no average QB is going to to save your season. Brock Purdy would look like a 7th rd QB if he was trying to QB this team. Jared Goff would be looking like the Goff of old on this team.

 

[mcpickl]

Some quotes from SJH on Mac:









I could go on and on but it's all there, using SOSH's amazing search function.

He's talking about the QB play BaseballJones.

He didn't say, if you replace Mac with a different guy who sucks, everything is fixed. C'mon man. I know you are better than this.

Feel free to search his Zappe takes if you think he's been selling Zappe is the answer.

Good grief.

 

[NickEsasky]

He's talking about the QB play BaseballJones.

He didn't say, if you replace Mac with a different guy who sucks, everything is fixed. C'mon man. I know you are better than this.

Feel free to search his Zappe takes if you think he's been selling Zappe is the answer.

Good grief.

He’s literally called for Zappe repeatedly stating no one could be worse than Mac. Well we got no Mac today and they got 0 points. Who has reading comprehension issues here?

 

[BaseballJones]

He's talking about the QB play BaseballJones.

He didn't say, if you replace Mac with a different guy who sucks, everything is fixed. C'mon man. I know you are better than this.

Feel free to search his Zappe takes if you think he's been selling Zappe is the answer.

Good grief.

I never said he said Zappe is the answer. Not once. I never suggested anything like that. But we have him in black and white saying that 100% of the problem is Mac. Obviously he's not saying if you replace Mac with a random SOSHer that the Pats will be better. But yeah, he is - and has been all along - saying that when it comes to this Patriots' offense, Mac is absolutely THE problem. I have no idea how you can read everything he's written on this subject (there's ample material) and conclude otherwise.

 

[BaseballJones]

I don't want to make this about SJH, who, as it turns out, was right about Mac sucking (I thought Mac would be good, felt vindicated after his rookie year, but it turns out I've been wrong). He's just an example of someone who thinks that the offense would look much much MUCH better with an even semi-competent NFL QB there, which means he thinks that the rest of the offense isn't actually that bad, and that the problem all along has been Mac Jones.

 

[mcpickl]

Some quotes from SJH on Zappe

This is a massive mistake.

Yes, the OL is terrible and not helping him at all and his WRs are underwhelming. But Mac is broken. His mechanics, his footwork, and most importantly his decision-making are not NFL caliber and have not improved one iota. In short he's not an NFL player and should be treated accordingly.

I'd rather they roll with anyone else at this point. Zappe is terrible too, but Cunningham at least can show some running ability. I'd rather roll the dice with anyone else but Mac at this point, because Mac stinks.

I agree, but my larger point has been that it all stems from horrible QB play first and foremost. All of it.

I would love to see what would happen if Mac got benched this week, for the entertainment if nothing else. Zappe sucks, but man, 2-7 sucks as well. Would we see players respond to a new QB? Would we still see the same mistakes and frustration? I don't know, but I would like to find out. I doubt we will, however.

His footwork issues no longer have anything to do with pressure faced in the pocket. He was getting plenty of time on Sunday and his feet were still absolutely terrible. A JJSS drop doesn't change that fundamental problem.

At this point they are 2-7 and while I've seen a lot of Zappe to know he's terrible, I don't think they could possibly be much worse with Grier or Cunningham under center as they are with Mac. The results speak for themselves.

And I think that's very fair. BoB going off on him on the sidelines on Sunday was probably close to the edge, but then he had the next drive and that ended with the infamous INT.

I have little real optimism that Zappe or Grier will be any sort of savior, but if they stink at least it will be a new flavour of stink.

Even so the change should have been made long ago. Zappe stinks, but perhaps he stinks marginally less than Mac. We clown on the Jets but even they decided enough was enough with Wilson. Boyle also stinks but at least they are trying something different. The Pats seem reluctant to do the same.

Definitely sounds like a guy who thinks changing from Mac to Zappe changes everything.

 

[NickEsasky]

I don't want to make this about SJH, who, as it turns out, was right about Mac sucking (I thought Mac would be good, felt vindicated after his rookie year, but it turns out I've been wrong). He's just an example of someone who thinks that the offense would look much much MUCH better with an even semi-competent NFL QB there, which means he thinks that the rest of the offense isn't actually that bad, and that the problem all along has been Mac Jones.

I apologize I started this shitshow by ribbing my friend. I should have added an emoji or something.

 

[E5 Yaz]

I apologize I started this shitshow by ribbing my friend. I should have added an emoji or something.

No need to apologize; this shitshow has been far more entertaining than the one in Foxboro today

 

[NickEsasky]

Some quotes from SJH on Zappe











Definitely sounds like a guy who thinks changing from Mac to Zappe changes everything.

Ok now look at the other words he wrote in those posts you quoted not just the bold. He literally asks if we’d see the same issues with a different guy. Turns out we did as they got shut out by a terrible defense. I feel like I’m taking crazy pills here.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

No need to apologize; this shitshow has been far more entertaining than the one in Foxboro today

Is it time to move on from @Smiling Joe Hesketh ?

 

[Ralphwiggum]

How in the world could anyone have watched today’s game and think that the QB is the only problem they have. It’s a huge problem but the roster on offense is beyond horrible. They can’t score 10 fucking points. The O-line was terrible today, the receivers are horrendous, the one guy who was kind of OK on offense just fucked up his ankle. If you are are defensive coordinator who do you game plan for on the Pats offense?

QB is a problem of course but the offense is really, really bad.

 

[mcpickl]

I never said he said Zappe is the answer. Not once. I never suggested anything like that. But we have him in black and white saying that 100% of the problem is Mac. Obviously he's not saying if you replace Mac with a random SOSHer that the Pats will be better. But yeah, he is - and has been all along - saying that when it comes to this Patriots' offense, Mac is absolutely THE problem. I have no idea how you can read everything he's written on this subject (there's ample material) and conclude otherwise.

Yes, and I'm saying he's saying that the QB play, that had been predominantly helmed by Mac this season, is the problem.

That doesn't mean it's a gotcha of some kind that Zappe also wasn't a solution to the problem. If Zappe had started every game this year, he'd have said the same things, but about Zappe.

He's talking about replacing bad QB play with good QB play, not bad QB play with different bad QB play.

Like, if someone in here posts that the receiver play isn't good enough, and then next week the Patriots bring back N'Keal Harry and the WR play still sucks, that didn't prove people wrong that said the WR play sucks.

 

[Mystic Merlin]

Is it time to move on from @Smiling Joe Hesketh ?

Not so long as he keeps taking hometown discounts to stay as the emotional leader of sorts. That goes a long way.

 

[cornwalls@6]

Is it time to move on from @Smiling Joe Hesketh ?

We can’t quit him.

 

[mcpickl]

He’s literally called for Zappe repeatedly stating no one could be worse than Mac. Well we got no Mac today and they got 0 points. Who has reading comprehension issues here?

Still you it seems

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

We can’t quit him.

Maybe we can have @NickEsasky manage SJH's thoughts on team QBs and SJH can post about everything else.

 

[NickEsasky]

Yes, and I'm saying he's saying that the QB play, that had been predominantly helmed by Mac this season, is the problem.

That doesn't mean it's a gotcha of some kind that Zappe also wasn't a solution to the problem. If Zappe had started every game this year, he'd have said the same things, but about Zappe.

He's talking about replacing bad QB play with good QB play, not bad QB play with different bad QB play.

Like, if someone in here posts that the receiver play isn't good enough, and then next week the Patriots bring back N'Keal Harry and the WR play still sucks, that didn't prove people wrong that said the WR play sucks.

No it’s more than that. His reactions to Mac are visceral. Yes he’s sentient and realizes Zappe sucks too but the man has a pure hatred for Mac.

 

[mcpickl]

I don't want to make this about SJH, who, as it turns out, was right about Mac sucking (I thought Mac would be good, felt vindicated after his rookie year, but it turns out I've been wrong). He's just an example of someone who thinks that the offense would look much much MUCH better with an even semi-competent NFL QB there, which means he thinks that the rest of the offense isn't actually that bad, and that the problem all along has been Mac Jones.

Is that what that means?

Or could it mean he thinks a semi-competent QB, could make this awful offense below average, along with a very good defense would probably put the team around average?

Because that's what I've taken from reading his posts.

 

[NickEsasky]

Still you it seems

Ok, buddy. Keep telling yourself that despite multiple people calling out your bullshit here.

 

[SoxinSeattle]

Some guy on Twitter told me this message board wasn't toxic. Where do I get my money back?