Are we seeing similar health issues in non-US markets where the max-effort and training programs may not exist (Japan) or even the minors where they are starting to be implemented?
"We work under the assumption that ever pitcher is one pitch away from blowing his arm out."Feels like the same could be said for any team giving a long term mega deal.
That's what Tyler Glasnow said in his interview from a couple years ago. Pitchers got used to the sticky stuff and when it was banned, they compensated by gripping the ball harder. Once they got used to having unhittable spin on the ball, they didn't want to give it up even if it means tearing up their elbows.Red Sox offseason looking ... maybe not better but whatever you call the intersection of disappointment and schadenfreude.
I had dinner with an MLB insider friend last night, and in his view, one piece of the TJ epidemic puzzle is the grip, which I hadn't heard before. Growing up the old adage was that pitchers held the ball like it was an egg. Now, to generate higher spin, they grip it very firmly. That means that when you perform the unnatural act of throwing, all those muscles and tissues in the forearm and elbow are pulled tighter than they would otherwise have been, making the stress on them much worse than what pitchers experienced in "the old days".
How much better does Spider Tack let pitchers pitch than the harder grip they're using to compensate now? And now much harder does that make it for hitters? I want to see baseball's best players (pitchers included) perform at high levels and not get devastating injuries. If the tradeoff is a few fewer dingers, I make that trade.That's what Tyler Glasnow said in his interview from a couple years ago. Pitchers got used to the sticky stuff and when it was banned, they compensated by gripping the ball harder. Once they got used to having unhittable spin on the ball, they didn't want to give it up even if it means tearing up their elbows.
The solution that would help pitchers stay healthy is letting them load up on Spider Tack again. But that's not fair to the hitters and contributes to the poor product on the field. I'm not sure how you get everyone involved to value health over performance.
I've come around to this being the best solution, as well. Earlier in the thread (or maybe a different one?), this article was posted https://www.theringer.com/mlb/2024/4/2/24118963/pitcher-injuries-crisis-mlb-study-tommy-john-ucl from Ben Lindbergh.When you compare the numbers of pitchers used per season in 2003 to 2023 it is a huge difference. Checking the top ten teams by fWAR in 2003, 26 pitchers used during the season was the most among the top 10 teams. The least number of pitchers used among those teams was 17. In 2023, the most was 41 pitchers and the least was 26. I didn't average all 30 teams but it looks to be about 12 more pitchers were used per team in 2023 vs 2003.
There needs to be an incentive for the team to keep pitchers healthy. Currently teams don't care because the risk of blowing out a guys arm is worth the value of having guys max out on every pitch. Teams clearly feel they can just bring up another guy.
It is probably not doable but limiting the number of pitchers a team can use during a season would incentivise teams to keep pitchers healthy. If a team continues to push players to their max on every pitch they will run out of pitchers to use during the season. Pitchers, rightfully so, feel the only way to make and stay in the majors is to go all out on every pitch. Maybe if teams knew they would run out of guys they would be more active in teaching players how to go deeper into games and learn to pitch at 85-90% max instead of pitching at nearly 100% on every pitch.
Of course, this is my belief that the majority of these injuries are because pitchers are throwing harder and max effort all the time.
My stance on the panacea for pitching—or the closest we can come to one—hasn’t changed since I made the case two years ago: Active roster limits on pitchers have to go lower. “I don’t think it’s had the desired effect,” Manfred said last fall of the current 13-pitcher limit, which went into effect (to teams’ chagrin) in June 2022. “There are a few numbers smaller than 13.”
If max-effort pitching is the primary cause of the pileup of pitcher injuries, then limiting teams to fewer pitchers at any particular time—and tightening roster rules to prevent teams from frequently reshuffling the 12 (or, eventually, 11 or 10) arms available to them—would strongly discourage the undesirable behavior. Without the backstop of virtually bottomless bullpens, starters would be forced to pace themselves, as they used to when they were expected to “finish what they started.” They would once again have to take a little off their typical pitch and pick their spots to “reach back for a little extra.” They would push their personal velocities into the red less often and accumulate less strain on their arms.
That restriction would have a number of nice knock-on effects: starters who’d go deeper into games; lower strikeout rates, higher batting averages, and more base runners; fewer pitching changes; less Blake Snell–style nibbling to induce chases and fewer pitches per plate appearance; more comebacks; more players who reach increasingly elusive old-school statistical milestones. It would also replace push-button bullpen moves and inject some serious strategy as managers weigh their desire for a fresh pitcher against concerns about being shorthanded or rapidly inflating season-long workloads.
Then there will be more pitchers throwing harder and for fewer innings, which I don't want. Pitchers are too good (per batter), which is why there aren't enough balls in play. And pitchers don't throw enough innings, which I don't like aesthetically. Pitchers throwing this hard and being this good is also (I believe the best explanation) why they're losing their UCLs.Rosters should be higher IMO, 30 player active rosters (15 pitchers/15 hitters) and 40 man rosters should go to 45.
I don't think it's clear that there actually are more injuries this year, I think it could be more that the injuries this season have been to higher profile pitchers on average.Pitchers throwing this hard and being this good is also (I believe the best explanation) why they're losing their UCLs.
This is where I'm at, too. Try and regulate it as much as you can, but the alternative we're seeing now sucks. Can they pre-stick the balls?Bring back sticky stuff!
As they do in... was it Korea?This is where I'm at, too. Try and regulate it as much as you can, but the alternative we're seeing now sucks. Can they pre-stick the balls?
Signed, Kaleb Ort's MotherRosters should be higher IMO, 30 player active rosters (15 pitchers/15 hitters) and 40 man rosters should go to 45.
Agreed. Add the sticky stuff, then move the mound back a foot or whatever relevels the playing field. Oh! You could do that, too, just flatten the mound and LITERALLY level the playing field!Bring back sticky stuff!
Yeah, I mean...the current path for injuries is horrible for the game. The days of the pitching duel are over, and it's a terrible thing for the game.Signed, Kaleb Ort's Mother
Agreed. Add the sticky stuff, then move the mound back a foot or whatever relevels the playing field. Oh! You could do that, too, just flatten the mound and LITERALLY level the playing field!
But the hitters are not performing at high levels because the pitchers with their unsustainable spin rates and velocity are too good. Balls in play are at the lowest point in history. League batting averages are barely better than 1968. Hitters have recognized that they're not going to be able to string together enough base hits in a row to score someone, so they try to hit it over the wall on every swing. That results in pitchers trying to allow even less contact, generating even more strikeouts and even more incentive to try to hit home runs. It's not an enjoyable product to anyone except psychos like Jon Abbey.How much better does Spider Tack let pitchers pitch than the harder grip they're using to compensate now? And now much harder does that make it for hitters? I want to see baseball's best players (pitchers included) perform at high levels and not get devastating injuries. If the tradeoff is a few fewer dingers, I make that trade.
Can't help but feel like this child is getting some terrible advice.Let's just reserve a spot for this kind in this thread.
View: https://twitter.com/TannerBercier/status/1785876183696961948
Why? League OPS is currently the lowest in 35 years. If anything the hitters need more help.I guess I don't understand the hate for starting pitchers. Much more fun watching a starter go long than a parade of anonymous relievers. But I also don't see how roster limits solve anything. Pitchers really have no choice but to go all out every pitch.
Yup. There’s such a focus on velocity these days. My 4th grader played a team whose pitcher threw really hard but was so erratic, to the point where it was getting dangerous for the kids. His coach, and his father in the stands, were encouraging it. He was getting strikeouts because the kids were horrified to stand in there but his mechanics were terrible. Instead of telling him to dial it down and actually, you know, learn how to pitch, his dad and coach were enabling him to Kyle Farnsworth it. And a bunch of 4th graders had their experience ruined because they were afraid of getting drilled in the head.Can't help but feel like this child is getting some terrible advice.