The sixers and building a winner
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said player took 26 shots, including 17 3Ps. Interesting that he went 3-4 from 3P land in first 1:16 and then went 1-13 the rest of the way.
Stat I heard today, I guess it is appropriate for this thread...
Phili sports teams went winless at home in the month of November.
Phili sports teams went winless at home in the month of November.
Philly within 5 or leading inside the last 5 minutes. 36 minutes played 12 FGs 19 TOs. Outscored by 71.
23 minutes within 5 inside 3 minutes. Outscored by 60.
23 minutes within 5 inside 3 minutes. Outscored by 60.
Boom! And down goes Hinkie!!!!
Jerry Colangelo In and Sam Hinkie on a banana peel presumably until a buyout of some sort is reached.
Jerry Colangelo In and Sam Hinkie on a banana peel presumably until a buyout of some sort is reached.
http://www.nba.com/sixers/news/jerry-colangelo-joins-philadelphia-76ers
I think tanking is a mostly ineffective strategy, so I don't feel too bad for Hinkie. That being said, if he had gotten a break in the lottery and drafted Wiggins or KAT, things would look a lot different in Philly. I mean, if he had Cleveland's luck...
Gotta love the language gymnastics. Colangelo, storied basketball exec, hired as "Chairman of Basketball Operations" but Hinkie, shrewd loser, will maintain his role as "GM and President of Basketball Operations." Sure he will.
True, but I think he really botched the Okafor and arguably the Embiid pick, as I've argued here quite a bit recently.
Colangelo's failure to even mention Hinkie in his statement followed by Hinkie's comments about him welcoming in Colangelo is awesome in an incredibly awkward kind of way.
I know you have supported your case a lot recently, but it is impossible to say he botched the Okafor pick one month into his 19 year old rookie season. One thing I really think Hinkie fucked up on was bringing in these guys without any real veterans to show these guys the ropes of the NBA. Ex-NBA players always harp on how important fit is to whether they make or break it in the NBA, and how important it is for young players to be drafted in good situations. I believe Jared Dudley was on The Lowe Post during the off-season and he said that 5 percent of the guys in the league will make it no matter what, 5 percent are going to fail no matter what, and then the other 90 percent it all comes down to what team they get drafted on. In Lowe's recent interview with Brett Brown, Brown talked about how important the player/player dynamic is in the league and how Philly has failed Oakfor in that regard. They are giving a teenager millions of dollars and little personal direction.
I believe he botched it because unless Okafor is going to be a superstar (and I still think he is the reincarnation of Al Jefferson, as I said before the draft), you just don't draft another center no matter what, you draft a player at any other position or trade the pick.
And honestly if you believe Okafor is going to be a superstar, you take him and you trade Noel on draft day. Both of those guys can't develop on the same team, and that is without even factoring in Embiid.
And honestly if you believe Okafor is going to be a superstar, you take him and you trade Noel on draft day. Both of those guys can't develop on the same team, and that is without even factoring in Embiid.
I agree with you re:development being a mess.
I also am a supporter of the idea that Hinkie's picks were a mess. He drafted for "value" in a way that made no sense. It limited the ability to develop, as 3 guys who can really only play C aren't developing on the same team long term. And, it devalues them. If you truly believe in Okafor (and you've properly evaluated Noel over the time you've had him), you need to make the trade right then. Now Noel is stumbling along out of position, and his trade value is only going down. IF Embiid ever comes back it will be the same thing but worse.
BPA isn't really a sustainable way to build an NBA team without trades. In this case it would be like an NFL team taking a RB in the top 15 three straight drafts, maybe 2 can play at once, but shouldn't.
Half of the Sixers players recognize that their NBA careers are about to come crashing to a halt. Value those bi-weekly checks while you can boys.
Final score: Spurs 119-68.
If not for a couple of questionable foul calls, Philly might have cut it within 50.
If not for a couple of questionable foul calls, Philly might have cut it within 50.
Simmons has too much playmaking for what the Sixers are going for. Seems more like a place to ruin Skal Labisierre's career instead.
Yeah, that's what I was thinking. But maybe not. I appreciate the NFL has made us sensitive to overuses of commissioner's discretion, but a soft nudge to ownership to put a halt to this farce wouldn't be the craziest thing in the world either.
Good for him! I called for this months ago and it's what a strong leader is supposed to do. You can't allow one rogue entity to devalue the reputation of your entertainment product .
The lakers are going to end with a worse record, they are tanking hard, and until this spurs game (which comes on the heels of an announcement of a change in direction of the franchise potentially) they'd actually been very competitive.
They'd had leads late in all the previous 5 games pre the the spurs late in the 4th, and some advanced stats bloggers noted that the Sixers had overall played like a 500 team over the last couple of weeks, then absolutely horendous in the last few minutes and ended up with zero wins.
Of course nothing excuses a performance like this frankly. But with the Lakers benching Randle and Russell to give Kobe more heave time, that team is worse and trying to be (or the most incompetent coach and team around)
I should have known something was coming, Eagles miracle win and Newcastle beating Liverpool have not been the story of my year. This is more like it.
They'd had leads late in all the previous 5 games pre the the spurs late in the 4th, and some advanced stats bloggers noted that the Sixers had overall played like a 500 team over the last couple of weeks, then absolutely horendous in the last few minutes and ended up with zero wins.
Of course nothing excuses a performance like this frankly. But with the Lakers benching Randle and Russell to give Kobe more heave time, that team is worse and trying to be (or the most incompetent coach and team around)
I should have known something was coming, Eagles miracle win and Newcastle beating Liverpool have not been the story of my year. This is more like it.
Wow So Adam Silver was directly involved. When your franchise is being bullied out of a plan by the commish you know it's good.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/sixers/2015/12/07/jerry-colangelo-hire-change-rebuilding-plan-sam-hinkie-76ers/76954620/
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/sixers/2015/12/07/jerry-colangelo-hire-change-rebuilding-plan-sam-hinkie-76ers/76954620/
I think on of Colangelo's first moves will be to trade Noel or Okafor for a veteran player, It will seem like a step, but would actually be a step forward. The remaining will get more playing time at his natural position, and the veteran player (if the Sixers were smart), would provided some leadership that would be needed on a team of young players. This will be one case where stats and talent evaluation wouldn't matter. They may get a point guard, but I think even a forward like Brandon Bass would help the Sixers.
If Colangelo trades Noel for Bass you would see Silver have to step in again. The Sixers can get Bass with a mid to late 2nd round pick. I actually see him liquidating some of those 9 2nd rounders he has in '18, '19, and '20 precisely in this manner for a Bass-type guy who wants to build his post-playing days career with a coaching/mentoring resume builder like this. No need to trade Noel for this type of player......he can be used in a bigger move.
This covers a lot of my thoughts if people care http://www.libertyballers.com/2015/12/8/9870644/emergency-roundtable-sixers-hire-colangelo
Broadly it could go badly or well. We don't know yet.
There's some positives for future recruiting of free agents etc, and rebuilding rep with agents etc as Colangelo is very well respected. It does a lot to shore up the largest (and most irritating) Hinkie habits.
If Hinkie runs the draft and talent side and he runs pitching and helps advice etc, good.
If he blows up the plan and tradees for half stars and puts the sixers back to where they were pre hinkie disaster.
The concern would be that it suggests ownership are either running out of patience, or they think it's time to ramp it up next year with Saric, Embiid plus new picks to add. IT's time to think about team building and free agents.
I'm unclear, my first reaction was panic. My second is there's a good and a bad outcome here and we don't know which plays out.
Broadly it could go badly or well. We don't know yet.
There's some positives for future recruiting of free agents etc, and rebuilding rep with agents etc as Colangelo is very well respected. It does a lot to shore up the largest (and most irritating) Hinkie habits.
If Hinkie runs the draft and talent side and he runs pitching and helps advice etc, good.
If he blows up the plan and tradees for half stars and puts the sixers back to where they were pre hinkie disaster.
The concern would be that it suggests ownership are either running out of patience, or they think it's time to ramp it up next year with Saric, Embiid plus new picks to add. IT's time to think about team building and free agents.
I'm unclear, my first reaction was panic. My second is there's a good and a bad outcome here and we don't know which plays out.
I know you're joking, but people seem to be putting a pretty major spin on an innocuous quote. All the quote says is that Silver helped them pick Colangelo and reached out to him to gauge interest on behalf of the owners. It sounds to me more like Harris was starting to get antsy, and since he has no/a bad rep in basketball circles asked Silver to help him convince Colangelo to take the job.
Not to pick on you, but this thread is getting out of control now. It's now at a point where people are arguing that trading the #3 overall pick--a #3 overall pick who has met or exceeded expectations on the court, mind you--for veteran leadership. Veteran leadership costs nothing to acquire. The Sixers could add Carlos Boozer, Elton Brand, or Shawn Marion tomorrow if they wanted to. Why would they trade a valuable asset for that?
CLE would probably not do it, but honestly what makes the most sense to me is PHI trading for Kevin Love. Love to me is totally unnecessary for CLE when they are healthy (Mozgov/Thompson/LBJ/Varejao can handle PF/C), and adding young players or picks could only help them long-term, somewhat reversing the Love for Wiggins deal that they probably never should have made. Love isn't a championship-type franchise player but he's certainly good enough to build around, and he would fit much better next to Noel than Okafor does. Really this should be a three way deal, Okafor somewhere, Love to PHI, and a young perimeter player and/or picks going to CLE.
That is what the piece says but nobody can convince me that the other owners haven't been on Silver to step in for the good of the product and their own revenue. I'm as close to 100% certain this occurred.....what billionaire businessman would sit on their hands watching one man singlehandedly affect their entertainment product? Much less all of them. There was pressure on Silver here in certain of it.
Yeah, that's probably a better way. I was just trying to come up with a player that the Sixers could get for them that would be a starting, rotational big who can play a complementary role with the remaining big that can also has some experience. Bass would a poor choice, but there is possibility of a small talent downgrade if they could stabilize the rotation, make the team play together better, and get some veteran leadership as well. JA's Kevin Love suggestion is more in line in what I was thinking.
For what it's worth, I don't just think it's the "veteran leadership" thing that's getting blown out of proportion, but also the entire notion of Okafor and Noel being a poor fit together. We're 1/4 of the way through Okafor's rookie year, and everybody here's speaking in absolutes about what he's going to be. All young big men are projects, even those that come into the league with advanced post games. The expectation for Okafor is that he'll extend his range as his career progresses, and scouts are bullish about how his face up game will progress. It's far too soon to say what sort of a fit Noel and Okafor are together. If Okafor can extend his range to 18 feet, this isn't nearly the issue it's being made out to be.
Okay, but it might be hurting their development until Okafor develops into Brandon Bass or whatever, right? I don't know how players develop, but it's a pretty compelling narrative that they develop best when used in the role they'll ultimately be playing?
Sure, I suppose. But I have no idea how to quantify that, or how heavily to weight practice vs. game situations, and so on.
Is it hurting Marcus Smart's development to have other lead guards even though the ideal scenario is that he develop into a true lead guard? Or, another example, the style Kevin Love played on offense changed pretty drastically during the course of his career. He attempted 19 3s his rookie year, and made 2 of them. Did not using Kevin Love as a stretch 4 for two seasons hurt his development, or was he better served stretching his range in practice with a shooting coach and gradually incorporating it into the offense? I have no idea, truthfully. I can see both arguments.
I'd imagine in Smart's case it is due more to Ainge recognizing right away that he doesn't possess the skill set to be a pure lead guard.....not only struggling to initiate by getting to his spot with the ball offensively but also he's a much better defender of the 2 than lightning quick 1's.
The thing is, the Lakers are horrible largely because of Kobe's performance this year. Incidentally, Kobe is the reason why the Lakers will still have a decent visitor's draw so it's not in the commissioner's best interest to tell them to stop playing their most famous player.
I think the owners and comish should try to pass some rules if they are anti tanking not this kind of nonsense.
There was a rule change voted on this offseason to make tanking harder, and they voted against it. Because that would hurt them, but hurting the sixers by politics at no cost to themselves, that's an easy pitch.
Such bullshit corrupt nonsense. I'd like to complain and fix my problem, but without actually in anyway preventing me from doing it myself next year.
There was a rule change voted on this offseason to make tanking harder, and they voted against it. Because that would hurt them, but hurting the sixers by politics at no cost to themselves, that's an easy pitch.
Such bullshit corrupt nonsense. I'd like to complain and fix my problem, but without actually in anyway preventing me from doing it myself next year.
http://www.cbssports.com/nba/writer/ken-berger/25408575/for-sixers-the-story-behind-the-much-needed-colangelo-course-correction
Looks like Harris (and/or his partners) made the call to bring someone in, and Silver gave them a list of guys who fit the bill.
Looks like Harris (and/or his partners) made the call to bring someone in, and Silver gave them a list of guys who fit the bill.
Well I doubt the league is going to say anything else, I think it was probably a little from column a, a little from column b.
The positive spin on it is there was building pressure externally, and the owners were hoping for faster progress. There's not a whole lot anyone can do at this point of the season I got to think colangelo knows this and will embrace the tank this year, but I always thought next year was likely the time they start trying to build. With the inflow of talent coming, they need to start making decisions, they can't add 6 players to this roster and some vets/ free agents without starting to make some moves.
We shall see. Way too much hinges on the lottery balls (for the Lakers pick as well as the sixers own).
I really really hope that if Silver did push this on the Sixers they got the lottery balls rigged in return. Of course the office no doubt wants the Lakers to not tank either. Frankly their demise should be a lot more embarrassing than the Sixers anyway.
In other news the Sixers lost a late lead to lose to the Nets. TANKADELPHIA
The positive spin on it is there was building pressure externally, and the owners were hoping for faster progress. There's not a whole lot anyone can do at this point of the season I got to think colangelo knows this and will embrace the tank this year, but I always thought next year was likely the time they start trying to build. With the inflow of talent coming, they need to start making decisions, they can't add 6 players to this roster and some vets/ free agents without starting to make some moves.
We shall see. Way too much hinges on the lottery balls (for the Lakers pick as well as the sixers own).
I really really hope that if Silver did push this on the Sixers they got the lottery balls rigged in return. Of course the office no doubt wants the Lakers to not tank either. Frankly their demise should be a lot more embarrassing than the Sixers anyway.
In other news the Sixers lost a late lead to lose to the Nets. TANKADELPHIA
More of the same old thing... The owner didn't have the guts to stick to the plan his GM sold him on and caved from some external pressure. It doesn't matter if its Jerry Coangelo, Billy King, Danny Ainge or Doc Rivers calling the shots, if they don't have the players they will be just as bad. The reason why they won't win ten games, even if they are in the lead the majority of some games and look good, is because they can't close, they crumble under a little pressure. It is unprecedented, no one has ever won in a professional league.
Coangelo should hire Diantoni and attempt to build a team like he had in the past with Nash, Amare, and Marion. Obviously, he won't find a talent like Nash, but he has his Amare player already in Noel and he could get Simmons to be his Marion, but much better. You think the Lakers wouldn't trade Russell for Okafor at this point, or maybe even Bledsoe from Phoenix or a number of point guards?
That is what Philly has going for them now, they have a blank slate with a great amount of assets to try to build. They may not get that generational talent in the draft as they planned for, but they may with Ben Simmons still. This could be more fun of a watch then "The Process...."
Coangelo should hire Diantoni and attempt to build a team like he had in the past with Nash, Amare, and Marion. Obviously, he won't find a talent like Nash, but he has his Amare player already in Noel and he could get Simmons to be his Marion, but much better. You think the Lakers wouldn't trade Russell for Okafor at this point, or maybe even Bledsoe from Phoenix or a number of point guards?
That is what Philly has going for them now, they have a blank slate with a great amount of assets to try to build. They may not get that generational talent in the draft as they planned for, but they may with Ben Simmons still. This could be more fun of a watch then "The Process...."
Noel and Amare are not comparable in any way, a young Amare was an incredible offensive player whereas Noel has absolutely no scoring touch, he makes Dwight Howard (still no real post game) look like Dirk Nowitzki. Nash won two MVPs under D'Antoni, good luck finding his equivalent.
When Amar'e was 22 he led the league in FG made, in FT attempted, put up 26/8 in the reg season then 30/11 in the playoffs when he carried the Suns to the WC Finals. He has this player in Noel???
Well their heights are similar, at least.
Ha- I guess I wasn't the only one struck by the comparison.
Sox311 to be fair what you're describing IS the process.
Accumulate assets until you get a foundational piece and build around them using those assets.
Frankly I thought they'd be hoping to switch to that stage next year anyway. The issue will be if they know who to build around yet, and of course this is (AGAIN) a bigs heavy talent wise draft, and if they miss the top pick and miss simmons, esp if it's to the lakers so dont' get that pick it could have EASILY been delayed again. They probably wouldn't have been god awful given the extra talent (Embiid Saric and their own pick plus Miami and OKC's will be a lot of talent coming in but all SOOO young they likely suck at first at least) but they'd probably have been ok with bad and learning about their new guys and then going for it.
I think if they were to get Simmons and the Lakers pick were to come over (likely 4/5 area ish if it does) I think they would have been switching pace next year anyway. Where having a Colangelo is an asset.
I think the main danger is that they are pushing it a year early esp if they miss Simmons and don't get the Lakers pick. But I think 4 years of tank would have been pushing it.
Some luck will determine a lot of the decision I think. I mean if Embiid is 100% (big if) AND they were to get Simmons they may have their building pieces
and then to build the team they have Saric, Noel, Okafor, Covington, Stauskas, maybe Lakers pick (or if not another high pick), Kings pick in the future, lots of 2nd round picks and lots of cap space.
That's not bad. Esp given where they were three years ago.
I do think this is worth remembering. Hinkie aside from luck in the lottery (wiggins, KAT) has done a great job. That team he took over had nothing, and didn't even own their own pick.Meanwhile the team has gone up a lot in value. He's significantly improved the franchise. Now it has a foundation can they turn into a winner? It's not like Hinkie has done a bad job. I think he should have been less of an ass about it, but tanking this hard was always going to piss off most.
Accumulate assets until you get a foundational piece and build around them using those assets.
Frankly I thought they'd be hoping to switch to that stage next year anyway. The issue will be if they know who to build around yet, and of course this is (AGAIN) a bigs heavy talent wise draft, and if they miss the top pick and miss simmons, esp if it's to the lakers so dont' get that pick it could have EASILY been delayed again. They probably wouldn't have been god awful given the extra talent (Embiid Saric and their own pick plus Miami and OKC's will be a lot of talent coming in but all SOOO young they likely suck at first at least) but they'd probably have been ok with bad and learning about their new guys and then going for it.
I think if they were to get Simmons and the Lakers pick were to come over (likely 4/5 area ish if it does) I think they would have been switching pace next year anyway. Where having a Colangelo is an asset.
I think the main danger is that they are pushing it a year early esp if they miss Simmons and don't get the Lakers pick. But I think 4 years of tank would have been pushing it.
Some luck will determine a lot of the decision I think. I mean if Embiid is 100% (big if) AND they were to get Simmons they may have their building pieces
and then to build the team they have Saric, Noel, Okafor, Covington, Stauskas, maybe Lakers pick (or if not another high pick), Kings pick in the future, lots of 2nd round picks and lots of cap space.
That's not bad. Esp given where they were three years ago.
I do think this is worth remembering. Hinkie aside from luck in the lottery (wiggins, KAT) has done a great job. That team he took over had nothing, and didn't even own their own pick.Meanwhile the team has gone up a lot in value. He's significantly improved the franchise. Now it has a foundation can they turn into a winner? It's not like Hinkie has done a bad job. I think he should have been less of an ass about it, but tanking this hard was always going to piss off most.
Ha ha. I admit I stand corrected. I think I place too much value on the "Steve Nash is the main reason why Amare and Marion were so good theory."
I only likened those two because of their freak athleticism I suppose. And I do have higher opinion of Noel than most. Thinking his offensive game will develop, so, I wasn't discounting Amare on purpose there.
Addition - if Philly comes out of this a contender I believe "the process" deserves a lot of credit. But it will take a lot of successful moves by new management. So, the process was cut way too short according to its own plan. Which is not a surprise I guess looking at owners in, really, all major sports.
I only likened those two because of their freak athleticism I suppose. And I do have higher opinion of Noel than most. Thinking his offensive game will develop, so, I wasn't discounting Amare on purpose there.
Addition - if Philly comes out of this a contender I believe "the process" deserves a lot of credit. But it will take a lot of successful moves by new management. So, the process was cut way too short according to its own plan. Which is not a surprise I guess looking at owners in, really, all major sports.
The process needs to end this summer after the lottery. Can't take Philly seriously until they actually start spending some money so that their bench isn't full of NBDL guys. I get running lean for a year or two but you can't do it for 3+. It's like trying to compete in D1 hoops with 4 scholarship players and a bunch of walk-ons.
I think you're giving them too much credit. Forget the bench......they don't have an NBA guard starting for them who would get rotation minutes on probably any other team in the league.
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