I feel like Bloom’s problem, whether mandated or not, is the decision to straddle. Never quite blowing it up for the full rebuild or pushing the chips in at a deadline and going for it. The decision fell flat last year and repeated this year.
A comment that indirectly leads to me say that I'd rather read the least-informed, bat-shittiest poster here than any of the professional commentariat for the next several days.The next hire doesnt do what Shaugnessy wants.
Isn’t that’s what’s frustrating about ending up in last place then? It’s no like we’re really competing past summer and there’s not really a clear path forward yet.I feel like Bloom’s problem, whether mandated or not, is the decision to straddle. Never quite blowing it up for the full rebuild or pushing the chips in at a deadline and going for it. The decision fell flat last year and repeated this year.
You didn’t ask me, but I’ll give my answer: honestly and realistically evaluating what last years team was at the deadline, and selling off/getting under the LT accordingly. Rather than the pointless lateral moves. A badly missed opportunity that loomed over this past offseason. Can criticize certain individual moves, but that was a bad mark on his tenure. And maybe undermined confidence in his ability to work all the levers of the job.
So just to be clear on this one. The stance here is that he effed up the 2022 and 2023 deadlines he straddled and that was insufficient when the team was right on that borderline of competitive or not...when pretty much everybody in this thread who supports this move is ALSO mad the Sox are in the cellar (or tied for last with a record that would be in the middle of any other division in baseball whatever). I am pretty sure most of the folks here to HWSC"s point wanted him to do what he did at the time - find strategic acquisitions but don't break hard either way. The poll here was pretty clear.He was too cautious. It's actually an approach I've seen the SoSH community guilty of in the past as well. Going after guys that are a good value but a reluctance to push for super stars because they're too risky. Dombrowski gets a lot of flack and has a wake of bad contracts around the league, but he would go into the offseason with a plan and execute that plan in full. Chaim didn't seem to have that ability.
- 2021 they traded for Schwarber at the deadline. Arguably the best bat that changed teams but they didn't acquire the first baseman that they needed over and above that. That was the narrative on here.
- 2022 trade deadline, they failed to get under the luxury tax threshold and kept assets like JD Martinez
- 2022-2023 offseason, failed to get a middle infielder. They did the exact same thing with Xander that they did with Lester on the heals of Henry and Co saying they don't want another Jon Lester situation here. Xander should have never gotten to free agency. When they let him get to free agency and sign with San Diego they failed to pivot to someone like Swanson. They made moves for the bullpen indicative of a championship caliber team (Martin, Kenley) and then looked for discounts on the starting pitching market.
Unless they hire someone quickly and were afraid they'd take another job soonDoing this now suggests that there was some sort of falling out or something weird.
Whether not to punt is not a choice made by Bloom alone. The org. decided to go for it, and decided the returning players would get them over the hump. They did not. So it's a pretty straight line. Bloom must have been on the side of going for it without making significant trades. (Urias was the only one.)I think his issue was he kept building teams that could flip players at the deadline if they were out of it, and he does have a good eye for players like that, but the teams were mostly too competitive to do that while also not being competitive enough to be a serious contender besides ‘21 so players hardly were flipped. I almost wonder if he had flipped most of Paxton, Turner, Duvall, Jansen and Martin if he would have kept the job.
Xander alone wouldn't make them a contender, but he'd be your best position player right now in terms of WAR and not only that would be sliding into the spot that has contributed the least value to your team in 2023. No player in baseball alone would make them a contender, you can plug Mookie in for Verdugo and it wouldn't be enough.So just to be clear on this one. The stance here is that he effed up the 2022 and 2023 deadlines he straddled and that was insufficient when the team was right on that borderline of competitive or not...when pretty much everybody in this thread who supports this move is ALSO mad the Sox are in the cellar (or tied for last with a record that would be in the middle of any other division in baseball whatever). I am pretty sure most of the folks here to HWSC"s point wanted him to do what he did at the time - find strategic acquisitions but don't break hard either way. The poll here was pretty clear.
If we're saying we wanted him to pull the plug on these teams in July I guess that can't be helped but honestly that is not what most fans here wanted him to do at the time or even now.
For the middle infielder thing, we really have no solid backing that Xander would have taken a market extension (non SD Market) from Boston prior to going to FA. If so, you might be able to argue it, but also...does Xander Bogaerts make this 2023 team a playoff contender? Not with his declining numbers this year. But he sure helps keep them above the tax line, which is a no-no of course.
I dunno, I get not being happy with the 2022-2023 Red Sox - they're frustrating. I just don't think the moves were there that make this better. Fans want their cake without the calories and unless you are running on all cylinders for years it just doesn't happen that way.
Couldn't you then say that about every GM? Aren't they all doing what they're doing with support of ownership until they're fired?Like you, I've been a vocal defender of what Bloom was doing. It's impossible to believe he was doing it without the express support of ownership.
It’s truly nice we’ve transitioned into being a patient and optimistic fan base and I get the excitement that prospects bring - it’s always more pleasant to daydream on the possible stars/dynasties of tomorrow than face the lackluster squad of today - but prospects aren’t sure things and the ones helping the team today weren’t Bloom’s picks.
This isn’t a team competing while restocking the farm system. It’s a cellar dwelling team that has rebuilt the farm system, because that’s what cellar dwelling teams do. I don’t think it took a special mind to draft Mayer and Teel with top 5 and top 15 picks.
I am shocked that Bloom got canned today. I thought he'd get another year. But I agree with these takes very much.There's a lot of smoke here but honestly, I think it comes down to whether Henry thought Bloom could be relied on to deliver the pitching this offseason they need to compete next year. And I think, based on how he built this season's staff (Kluber, relying on Paxton/Sale/etc.) and how he handled last offseason (the Xander San Diego deal that clearly surprised him), Henry concluded that Bloom couldn't.
Henry has to know that this team has a lot of the pieces in place right now: Devers, Casas, Yoshida, Duran, Wong, Story, Verdugo and Bello is a very solid group (and notably, none of the kids are Bloom guys, tho they're coming). What he doesn't have is pitching -- and getting that pitching is going to require moving some pieces and spending some dollars akin to what Dombrowski did in 2016-17 to bring back at least two starters. Bloom showed he could do well with high value, low cost deals on position players (a la Turner and Duvall). What he hasn't proven is his ability to make big, game-changing moves for top talent.
Nah, they probably just want to be able to get someone in place before the off season really gets going. We'll probably hire someone during the playoffs.People were worried about whom Bloom is accountable to - well, its not us but his bosses apparently are a different story.
Doing this now suggests that there was some sort of falling out or something weird. The season is over in a few weeks and the PR bump, whatever that means, will be forgotten by most casual fans by kickoff of the TNF game so not buying that this was done for headline purposes. That said, more color on the inner workings will be fascinating assuming we get a somewhat objective version.
that’s the best part, it’ll drive those buffoons crazy.But, didnt the Braves Coppollela to Anthopolous after the 2017 season? Which brings me back to my first post in this thread, that even as a Bloom guy - if the FO ultimately dont trust Bloom to take what he's done with the entire org and translate it to wins in Boston I get the move. With the caveat that....
The next hire doesnt do what Shaugnessy wants.
Absolutely, and if it does turn out that I'm wrong and they have someone like Alex A clamoring for this job and it's the next step, I'll be the happiest wrong person in New England. I just don't think we have Alex A walking through that door, and people piling on Bloom for his guys not being in there yet is just not acknowledging how long these run up processes are.But, didnt the Braves Coppollela to Anthopolous after the 2017 season? Which brings me back to my first post in this thread, that even as a Bloom guy - if the FO ultimately dont trust Bloom to take what he's done with the entire org and translate it to wins in Boston I get the move. With the caveat that....
The next hire doesnt do what Shaugnessy wants.
I don’t like Shaughnessy at all, but if you think he or his ilk had anything to do with it, you’re wrong.Guess the Shaughnessyite lunatics are running the asylum.
This is where I am.Totally shocked. This is the first time I have had doubts about this ownership group.This process is clearly what they signed up for, and it's hard not to feel as though they were searching for a scapegoat. Mea culpa to those who wound up having a better read on the situation than I did.
Absolutely this. The thinking might be that acquiring a few assets last year puts them in contention this year. Instead, during one of the biggest series of the year the Boston Fuckin'' Red Sox trotted out two goddamn openers and got their teeth kicked in. Embarrassing. Who knows what he would have done as a lame duck with the weight of the world on his back and I'm glad he won't be shopping for the groceries come hot stove season.I wonder if the discussions between Bloom and ownership the last two trade deadlines are a piece of this—because they made a bad call each time. Whether that bad call is ownership saying “go for it” and Bloom resisting or the opposite will be interesting to see if we get insight into.
Put down the telescope.I don’t like Shaughnessy at all, but if you think he or his ilk had anything to do with it, you’re wrong.
I don’t recall Shaughnesy badmouthing Dombrowsi, but Henry canned him less than year after winning a World Series. He tried to basically demote Cherington, who also won a World Series.
Henry is a billionaire 40 times over who’s in his third wife, this one who’s about 30 years younger than he is. He’s probably been firing people he didn’t think we’re producing quickly enough since Shaughnessy was covering rookie Larry Bird.
just like Sale and Price.I think you need to sign one and trade for one.
Whiffing on Eflin was a real killer.Absolutely this. The thinking might be that acquiring a few assets last year puts them in contention this year. Instead, during one of the biggest series of the year the Boston Fuckin'' Red Sox trotted out two goddamn openers and got their teeth kicked in. Embarrassing. Who knows what he would have done as a lame duck with the weight of the world on his back and I'm glad he won't be shopping for the groceries come hot stove season.
The other factor is if they're paying Xander top dollar, do they have enough cash to sign Duvall? Or Turner? Or Yoshida? At some point there's a limit.Xander alone wouldn't make them a contender, but he'd be your best position player right now in terms of WAR and not only that would be sliding into the spot that has contributed the least value to your team in 2023. No player in baseball alone would make them a contender, you can plug Mookie in for Verdugo and it wouldn't be enough.
That's a good point and one I hadn't considered. Let's see who gets the seat - and frankly moving on from Bloom after this season seems fair. You hire different types to execute different strategies. They need to ramp up with their system starting to bear fruit.Unless they hire someone quickly and were afraid they'd take another job soon
To be clear, I have mixed feelings about his firing, and think to some degree he is the fall guy for the fan indifference, and the associated ridicule coming from talk radio, etc. I think it would’ve been fair to give him 2024 to try and take the next step. But, IMO, he badly mishandled both trade deadline, and do think it may have hastened his departure.So just to be clear on this one. The stance here is that he effed up the 2022 and 2023 deadlines he straddled and that was insufficient when the team was right on that borderline of competitive or not...when pretty much everybody in this thread who supports this move is ALSO mad the Sox are in the cellar (or tied for last with a record that would be in the middle of any other division in baseball whatever). I am pretty sure most of the folks here to HWSC"s point wanted him to do what he did at the time - find strategic acquisitions but don't break hard either way. The poll here was pretty clear.
If we're saying we wanted him to pull the plug on these teams in July I guess that can't be helped but honestly that is not what most fans here wanted him to do at the time or even now.
For the middle infielder thing, we really have no solid backing that Xander would have taken a market extension (non SD Market) from Boston prior to going to FA. If so, you might be able to argue it, but also...does Xander Bogaerts make this 2023 team a playoff contender? Not with his declining numbers this year. But he sure helps keep them above the tax line, which is a no-no of course.
I dunno, I get not being happy with the 2022-2023 Red Sox - they're frustrating. I just don't think the moves were there that make this better. Fans want their cake without the calories and unless you are running on all cylinders for years it just doesn't happen that way.
If we brought in Stearns then we couldn't have traded for Corbin Burnes, though. Or signed Josh Hader.Nice timing in shitcanning Bloom immediately after the top PoBO candidate just came off the board.
I'd love to hear what top candidates with a strong track record are actually interested in this job, because my strong suspicion is that Bloom's replacement is the next flavor-of-the-month from the Braves or Dodgers ... you know, the same process that brought us Chaim Bloom.
Thiat being said, this is the same ownership group that replaced Tito with Bobby Valentine, so I wouldn't be surprised if Jim Bowden shows up for an interview.
Isn't that the issue though? It's what I keep coming back to in my head - people are mad about not maximizing certain scenarios (which seems to be Xander and the two deadlines where the team fell off). There wasn't really a series of moves in 2022 or 2023 that make them contenders, so people are mad they didn't sell, and I can agree with that not being ideal, but is that enough to fire him over? Maybe successfully extending Bogaerts under a reasonable deal (which I'm never convinced was possible) AND successfully convincing Eflin to come to Boston (reports are Boston at least tied the Tampa deal and Eflin is a Rays fan and Florida native...) that scoots them into the wild card? But that's also combined with other deals Bloom did make. If the Sox need perfect execution to eke into the wild card, that expectation feels unrealistic to me. And to others point, Xander taking up 20-25 million may mean you don't get someone else who has added value, so maybe it doesn't go that far.Xander alone wouldn't make them a contender, but he'd be your best position player right now in terms of WAR and not only that would be sliding into the spot that has contributed the least value to your team in 2023. No player in baseball alone would make them a contender, you can plug Mookie in for Verdugo and it wouldn't be enough.
We have a top 5 system in baseball, a solid core, & $80m to spend.I wish I had the optimism some posters here have on all of Chaim's acquired prospects about to hit.
"It will be great when another GM gets credit for all of Chaim's prospects hitting big."
Yes, yes it would.
Theo & Co got all the credit for the 2004 Red Siox when two of the biggest pieces that made that possible were Duquette's doingI wish I had the optimism some posters here have on all of Chaim's acquired prospects about to hit.
"It will be great when another GM gets credit for all of Chaim's prospects hitting big."
Yes, yes it would.
What does "gun shy" mean, he's too caught up in his prospects to ever trade them? He's afraid to take on any risk? Because the Sox are graduating out of a time when they should not have taken any risks with their prospects to a phase where they can and should.This is all well and good, but my biggest gripe with Bloom was the moves he didn't make (and Mookie). There were several instances where he would dip his toe in the water and execute 12% of a plan. If you're too gun shy that's also a problem.
After reading this entire thread I come back to this right here.Orrrrrrr they felt that Bloom had no plan besides wait for the kids. And wait. And wait. And wait.
Bloom had two tasks: rebuild the farm, and provide quality baseball on the field at Fenway. He did only one of those things.
I assume this is in response to my comment, but not all of them have to hit and no one with any sense thinks they will. A small handful in addition to the current core will fill some holes at low salaries and create $ for chasing big ticket guys. It's not wishcasting to look at the farm right now and expect three or four of those guys will become dependable MLers (not even stars!) that will account for a lot of inexpensive ABs every season for a three to five year span.I wish I had the optimism some posters here have on all of Chaim's acquired prospects about to hit.
"It will be great when another GM gets credit for all of Chaim's prospects hitting big."
Yes, yes it would.
They are 13th in payroll right now and are playing pretty much like it.After reading this entire thread I come back to this right here.
We are a top tier payroll organization. .500 or below in 3 of 4 seasons is not going to cut it. We aren't the Pirates.
Read the comments in one of his columns sometime. There is a breathtakingly stupid mob of Sox fans who demand the team go all in on winning tomorrow's game. I completely believe ownership is sensitive to fanbase pressure, no matter how brainless it is. We don't know otherwise.I don’t like Shaughnessy at all, but if you think he or his ilk had anything to do with it, you’re wrong.
I don’t recall Shaughnesy badmouthing Dombrowsi, but Henry canned him less than year after winning a World Series. He tried to basically demote Cherington, who also won a World Series.
Henry is a billionaire 40 times over who’s in his third wife, this one who’s about 30 years younger than he is. He’s probably been firing people he didn’t think we’re producing quickly enough since Shaughnessy was covering rookie Larry Bird.
Haven't read through this entire thread but the ironic part to me is that either Bloom sold the top brass on his ability to remain competitive and rebuild (or he took the job with that stipulation) but it turns out he likely would have had more job security if he had full-on tanked.I probably have a reputation as a Bloom apologist, & I probably agree with 90% or more of what he's done. But I really don't have an issue with him being fired. I wish him all the best of luck in all his future endeavors. He's made good money, carried himself with dignity, left our franchise in a much better place & has plenty of time to catch on with another team.
Seems like this has been pretty consistent from ownership. You get four years to show results.With the exception of his "sabbatical" after the 2005 season, Theo Epstein ran baseball ops for the Red Sox from 2002-11. Since then: Ben Cherington got 1,393 days, Dave Dombrowski got 1,493 days and Chaim Bloom got 1,417 days. All roughly 3.8 years.
Hasn't he been quoted as saying that Tampa was his home and he wanted to stay there?Whiffing on Eflin was a real killer.
So fan impatience makes a real rebuild impossible. That's the rule. We have a lot of below .500 seasons coming then.After reading this entire thread I come back to this right here.
We are a top tier payroll organization. .500 or below in 3 of 4 seasons is not going to cut it. We aren't the Pirates.
Two of those three won a World Series title, so that doesn't seem to be the 'result' ownership cares about.Pete Abe makes a good point:
Seems like this has been pretty consistent from ownership. You get four years to show results.
The Red Sox offered him the same deal as Tampa and he is a Rays fan and lives in Florida, so yep.Hasn't he been quoted as saying that Tampa was his home and he wanted to stay there?
They’ll let the new guy or gal pick the field managerPut me in the category of those who hope that, since Bloom is gone, the other shoe drops as well. I'm more pro- than anti- Cora, but I'd like to see them clean house on the MLB level.
Saddling a new czar with the same manager/staff handcuffs them from the start.
I agree with all but the bolded -- I am also not living or dying with each loss. I love the Turner and Duvall signings. The kids emerging was great. And Bloom has made some good moves developing the roster on the whole.This is where I am.
I've tried to evaluate Bloom objectively, and I really like how he has rebuilt the system and I love the MLB core. I've figured that this was the offseason to get a couple starting pitchers and really start to compete next season. I guess I haven't been bothered by the MLB performance over the past couple of years because I like the overall direction, but I understand that others have a different view.
I just think it's a year or two early.
Now, Bloom obviously had nothing to do with 2019, and was clearly being given a mulligan for 2020. But the results of last 2 seasons do matter.Basically I think that's what they've been doing. Since their last championship (2018), they've gone:
2019: 84-78
2020: 24-36
2021: 92-70
2022: 78-84
2023: 73-72 so far
TOT: 351-340 (.508), which would project to an 82-80 record in a 162-game season
That's about as "mediocre" as it gets, right?
The implication is that it's fanboyism on the prospects, which is ridiculous, since basically every reputable organization that follows prospects has the same opinion.We have a top 5 system in baseball, a solid core, & $80m to spend.
All the prospects don't need to hit for things to end up very nicely.