The Matt Harvey Full 180

mikeford · Sep 5, 2015

https://twitter.com/TRIPPINGOLNEY/status/640277391885996032

rembrat · Sep 5, 2015

Wow. Matt Harvey's a bit of a dick.

jon abbey · Sep 5, 2015

Alderson isn't with the team but said he will talk to Harvey in person in DC on Monday and then address the media.

grimshaw · Sep 5, 2015

It's really baffling because Harvey was bitching earlier in the season about the 6 man rotation. He's been handled very carefully.
I'm kind of bummed since he was one of my favorite NL pitchers. This isn't going to make him popular in the clubhouse or with the fans.

Jnai · Sep 5, 2015

rembrat said:
Wow. Matt Harvey's a bit of a dick.

I'm not sure that's fair. He answered all those questions yesterday. Today is about Qualcomm.

Red(s)HawksFan · Sep 5, 2015

Didn't the Nationals do this with Strasburg a few years back after his TJ surgery? Boras involved, obviously, but I recall the GM and manager were fully on board with his shutdown. This situation with Harvey doesn't seem all that different.

MakMan44 · Sep 5, 2015

Jnai said:
I'm not sure that's fair. He answered all those questions yesterday. Today is about Qualcomm.

Nice

Laser Show · Sep 5, 2015

I get that he's being a dick about it but the reaction from the fans and media is mind blowing to me. This is about his health and career. That's more important for him and the club than a 12.5 percent chance of a WS title.

Did no one really think this was coming?

Bigpupp · Sep 5, 2015

Red(s)HawksFan said:
Didn't the Nationals do this with Strasburg a few years back after his TJ surgery? Boras involved, obviously, but I recall the GM and manager were fully on board with his shutdown. This situation with Harvey doesn't seem all that different.

Doesn't seem like the Mets are quite as on board with this idea as the Nats were.

Average Reds · Sep 5, 2015

Laser Show said:
I get that he's being a dick about it but the reaction from the fans and media is mind blowing to me. This is about his health and career. That's more important for him and the club than a 12.5 percent chance of a WS title.

Did no one really think this was coming?

Unlike pitchers who come back after 12 months, Harvey had 18 months before he began pitching.

The risk to his health from an additional 20 innings or so is minimal, and the concern is overblown.

If he won't pitch, I'd tell him he's going to be a middle innings reliever for the rest of the year and that's how they'll limit his innings.

soxhop411 · Sep 5, 2015

His Wikipedia page is about to be locked.

soxhop411 · Sep 5, 2015

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Matt_Harvey&diff=679650004&oldid=679647210&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+wikipedia%2Fqsvj+%28Wikipedia++-+Recent+changes+%5Ben%5D%29

All of the changes angry mets fans have made.

MakMan44 · Sep 5, 2015

Laser Show said:
I get that he's being a dick about it but the reaction from the fans and media is mind blowing to me. This is about his health and career. That's more important for him and the club than a 12.5 percent chance of a WS title.

Did no one really think this was coming?

In September?! I think I can safely say that most people would have expected this to happen in late July when it was clear the Mets were in playoff contention and shopping for bats but not this late into the season.

Say what you want about an 180 IP limit, not making his thoughts clear when the Mets had more room to manage his remaining innings was a shitty decision.

LuckyBen · Sep 5, 2015

Red(s)HawksFan said:
Didn't the Nationals do this with Strasburg a few years back after his TJ surgery? Boras involved, obviously, but I recall the GM and manager were fully on board with his shutdown. This situation with Harvey doesn't seem all that different.

They were just bitching about this on MLB radio because the Nats flopped in the postseason, but made the move for the future. It has not payed off and Strasburg has not lived up to the promise since. There are always worst case for each scenario, but I would find it foolish for Harvey to give up on the season.

Gdiguy · Sep 5, 2015

grimshaw said:
It's really baffling because Harvey was bitching earlier in the season about the 6 man rotation. He's been handled very carefully.
I'm kind of bummed since he was one of my favorite NL pitchers. This isn't going to make him popular in the clubhouse or with the fans.

This is the part that really pisses me off about this - if this was such a big deal, why did he bitch and moan about having starts skipped, or that he didn't like a 6 man rotation. Did he really think that 'I want to start every 5 days, and then shut down in early Sept' was going to get him happy results?

soxhop411 · Sep 5, 2015

“@AdamRubinESPN: There's still a high degree of confidence within the organization that Matt Harvey will pitch in postseason, I'm hearing.”

ifmanis5 · Sep 5, 2015

Talking like BB works for BB- all he has to do is win football games and he doesn't have a brand to sell. Harvey, on the other hand, takes the mound alone needing crowd support and his income is directly related to how marketable and likable he is with the fans. Good luck, dude.

Jnai · Sep 5, 2015

Unless he's going to stay in shape (which means basically throwing simulated games / side sessions) and somehow stay mentally checked in (which is probably the harder part because it involves his teammates, the team management, and his fans), how is he going to sit out a month and then come back at 100%?

jon abbey · Sep 5, 2015

https://twitter.com/JoeCurciWOR/status/640354544472457216

jon abbey · Sep 5, 2015

He is the only one coming off Tommy John, but some of their other young guys have to be running up against innings limits soon also, Syndergaard especially.

Gdiguy · Sep 5, 2015

Also, according to the SNY broadcast Alderson is 'furious', I wouldn't be shocked at all if the Mets throw Harvey under the bus if he & Boras don't back off. Harvey even wanted to rush back and pitch LAST September, which the Mets had to kibosh.

The Mets have done some stupid things in recent memory, but all the evidence points to this being a Boras creation and not a Mets problem.

*edit*

They're already throwing Boras under the bus:
http://m.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/lupica-matt-harvey-remembered-mets-ace-quit-article-1.2350197

“The plan last winter,” Sandy Alderson said late Saturday afternoon, “was 185 innings plus the playoffs. Let’s shoot for 185 and see where we are at the end of the regular season and make a decision then about the playoffs depending on the condition of the player. That was before we went to spring training.”
I asked if Harvey was fine with that.
“Yes,” Alderson said.
“Dr. (James) Andrews didn’t tell me there was a 180 innings limit,” Alderson continued. “That’s Scott. But Jimmy Andrews isn’t the kind of guy who’s going to get into a pissing contest with anybody.
“And by the way? I’m the one who initiated this whole thing when Matt got to 140 innings. I said, ‘Matt, remember, we’re shooting for 185. But given the way things are going, we might exceed that, maybe to 195 instead.’ I told him to call Scott and that we would all talk it over and see what everybody thinks. That’s what precipitated these calls to the doctors. Now it’s as if Scott was the one monitoring things at 140. That’s bulls---.”

...

“Matt’s going to have to make a decision. Scott wants us to make it, and take it out of Matt’s hands. But this is a 26-year-old man here, not some 18-year-old kid. He’s an adult. This paternalistic attitude that Scott might have toward his clients, that’s not going to be duplicated by us. We’ve done our research and our due diligence.

jon abbey · Sep 6, 2015

One funny thing is that part of the issue is that Boras understandably never thought the Mets would get this close to it mattering, they've had a lot of things go right for them so far, guys blossoming almost immediately and great deadline acquisitions and of course a historically awful division. Bad communication to not talk about it in specific detail at least a month or two ago certainly, probably more Boras' fault but also very Mets-ian. Harvey bitching about the six man attempt at the time was pretty bad too, plenty of blame to go around.

Maybe if the Mets want him so badly past 180 innings, they should offer him some kind of bonus over his whopping $614K salary. I am certain it can't be done in the CBA, but a nice solution would be for them to compensate him for the additional stress they are asking him as a cheaply paid employee to put on his arm, a slight insurance policy. Maybe $1M per 10 innings?

jtn46 · Sep 6, 2015

The Met fan reaction is absurd. They should be mad at Alderson and Collins for not having a better plan. How is Harvey the villain here?

mauidano · Sep 6, 2015

jtn46 said:
The Met fan reaction is absurd. They should be mad at Alderson and Collins for not having a better plan. How is Harvey the villain here?

Maybe because he's avoiding the topic? And maybe because ultimately the decision is his? It IS New York after all. Completely different beast than the DC Nats fanbase.

Spacemans Bong · Sep 6, 2015

jtn46 said:
The Met fan reaction is absurd. They should be mad at Alderson and Collins for not having a better plan. How is Harvey the villain here?

Because Harvey has constantly whined every time they tried to limit his innings? He whined when they said no to pitching him last September, he whined when they went to a six man rotation to protect him, he whines whenever Terry Collins takes him out early.

For him to all of a sudden care about his innings count reeks of Boras in his ear. There is no innings count handed down from on high, that's just pseudo science. The Mets are totally justified in telling him and Boras to fuck off, and he'll pitch when they want him to.

Edit: fuck giving him a bonus. If he wants financial security, he can go sign an extension giving up some free agency years like everybody else. But he wants the Mets to act against their own interests so he can hit free agency as soon as possible in as good health as possible.

Average Reds · Sep 6, 2015

jtn46 said:
The Met fan reaction is absurd. They should be mad at Alderson and Collins for not having a better plan. How is Harvey the villain here?

If the quotes above are any indication, Alderson and Collins had a plan and Boras (and probably Harvey) are now uncomfortable with that plan because they didn't ever think the Mets would make the playoffs. I also can't stress enough what I said above - Harvey had an extra 6 months recovery before he began pitching and that extra time is huge in terms of mitigating the risk to Harvey.

It's worth noting that Harvey's recovery timetable is almost precisely equivalent to that of John Lackey in 2013. Lackey pitched 189 regular season innings and then 26 more in the playoffs. Ask yourself how fans would have reacted if Lackey's agent had implied on Labor Day weekend 2013 that he was reaching an innings limit.

jtn46 · Sep 6, 2015

Spacemans Bong said:
Because Harvey has constantly whined every time they tried to limit his innings? He whined when they said no to pitching him last September, he whined when they went to a six man rotation to protect him, he whines whenever Terry Collins takes him out early.

For him to all of a sudden care about his innings count reeks of Boras in his ear. There is no innings count handed down from on high, that's just pseudo science. The Mets are totally justified in telling him and Boras to fuck off, and he'll pitch when they want him to.

Yeah I see that point. I guess my opinion is players are usually like this, they want to compete and don't think about the big picture, Pedro didn't want to come out of Game 7. Lackey pitched half a season with a torn elbow. Miley this year is screaming at Farrell when he'd given up half a dozen runs. Players are valuable because they're good at throwing or hitting baseballs, not because they're brilliant planners.

I think it's terrific that Harvey is so competitive he wants to pitch as much as possible, but for the Mets he figures to be incredibly valuable for at least the next 3 seasons so it doesn't seem terribly controversial to be concerned about his innings here, and at least according to Boras they had this conversation before the season started. If it's reaching a point where the Mets have to shut him down I don't think it's crazy to think that this issue deserved some foresight. If the Mets are of the opinion that it doesn't matter, they're really gambling that he doesn't suffer another injury like the one that required Tommy John in the first place.

jtn46 · Sep 6, 2015

Average Reds said:
If the quotes above are any indication, Alderson and Collins had a plan and Boras (and probably Harvey) are now uncomfortable with that plan because they didn't ever think the Mets would make the playoffs. I also can't stress enough what I said above - Harvey had an extra 6 months recovery before he began pitching and that extra time is huge in terms of the risk to Harvey.

It's worth noting that Harvey's recovery timetable is almost precisely equivalent to that of John Lackey in 2013. Lackey pitched 189 regular season innings and then 26 more in the playoffs.

Ask yourself how fans would have reacted if Lackey's agent had implied on Labor Day weekend 2013 that he was reaching an innings limit.

If the plan is changing you're right, this is on Boras and Harvey, because if he feels great it's an annoying speed bump in an otherwise great season for the Mets. If the plan all along was 180 and the Mets didn't account for Harvey making potentially 6 or 7 starts in the posteason, that's poor planning.

Average Reds · Sep 6, 2015

How do you figure that Harvey gets an additional 6 or 7 starts in the postseason?

The absolute maximum would be 5 starts. But given his situation, he'll likely get 3 at most.

jtn46 · Sep 6, 2015

Average Reds said:
How do you figure that Harvey gets an additional 6 or 7 starts in the postseason?

The absolute maximum would be 5 starts. But given his situation, he'll likely get 3 at most.

Well depends on how deep the Mets go, but yeah, you're right, probably 5 unless the Mets go with only 3 starters.

johnmd20 · Sep 6, 2015

E5 Yaz said:
Say what you will about the Nats decision on Strasburg -- wise long-term, or cost them a chance at the World Series -- but they made the decision and stuck to it.

Now what Boras learned out of that expoerience that might be influencing him here, who know; but it's a mess.

It 100% cost them a chance at the World Series and it's not like it's saved Strasburg from injuries. There are so many unknowns when it comes to ian nnings count. I think those games where a guy throws 115+ pitches are part of the problem. But the Mets have limited Harvey's pitch count all year, pulling him in a few games where he had a shutout to conserve him.

Boras is chirping because, of course, he wants to get paid in 2018 when Harvey is a free agent. Nothing more, nothing less. Belichick is about the wins. Boras is about the money.

dcmissle · Sep 6, 2015

Red(s)HawksFan said:
Didn't the Nationals do this with Strasburg a few years back after his TJ surgery? Boras involved, obviously, but I recall the GM and manager were fully on board with his shutdown. This situation with Harvey doesn't seem all that different.

Precisely the same situation. Same surgery, same agent, you name it. And RIzzo and the Nationals were absolutely blasted for their approach to shut him down.

I really want to see if the Mets get the same ridicule -- here and everyplace else -- if they reach the same decision. I really doubt it.

johnmd20 · Sep 6, 2015

dcmissle said:
Precisely the same situation. Same surgery, same agent, you name it. And RIzzo and the Nationals were absolutely blasted for their approach to shut him down.

I really want to see if the Mets get the same ridicule -- here and everyplace else -- if they reach the same decision. I really doubt it.

You doubt it? They haven't even made the decision and this is a front page sports story in NY. And Rizzo and the Nationals should have been blasted for their decision.

dcmissle · Sep 6, 2015

The situation warrants the attention because of the competitive implications. What remains to be seen is how much withering gun fire is trained on the Mets if they sign off on shutting him down. We don't know that yet; they have not made a decision so far as I know.

Remagellan · Sep 6, 2015

dcmissle said:
Precisely the same situation. Same surgery, same agent, you name it. And RIzzo and the Nationals were absolutely blasted for their approach to shut him down.

I really want to see if the Mets get the same ridicule -- here and everyplace else -- if they reach the same decision. I really doubt it.

There is a huge difference in the cases--Strasburg did not want to be shut down, the team decided the matter for him.

Harvey is going to be the big loser here if he and Boras insist on the innings limit. The whole "Dark Knight of Gotham"/superhero/tough guy" image goes out the window if he chooses caution over the rare opportunity to pursue a championship.

Given how much of a media whore he's been since he came onto the scene, it appears that Harvey is the type who enjoys being Bruce Wayne more than he does being Batman. Which is as far from being a true Dark Knight as is possible.

dcmissle · Sep 6, 2015

It is very easy for SS to champ at the bit to get in there when Boras, your agent, is saying, "No!"

It's a really neat solution.

From the teams' perspectives, it is precisely the same situation.

DeJesus Built My Hotrod · Sep 6, 2015

Its not ideal that the Boras/Harvey and the Mets didn't communicate well about a plan for this guy but shutting it down at some point isn't a crime against humanity. TJ surgery is so commonplace these days that your average schlub sitting at home doesn't realize how grueling the procedure and its recovery can be.

Furthermore, as we have seen, playoff baseball takes its toll on pitchers in particular as many of the innings are more high-leverage than in the regular season given the level of competition and the value of winning each game. While it will suck if the guy shuts it down, its not entirely crazy from his perspective.

Yaz4Ever · Sep 6, 2015

No way Harvey doesn't try to back-pedal to appease the fanbase after this rabid reaction, right? Right?

snowmanny · Sep 6, 2015

Yaz4Ever said:
No way Harvey doesn't try to back-pedal to appease the fanbase after this rabid reaction, right? Right?

Why? Now and then every fanbase has to have that moment when they realize that one of their favorite players really is on team Boras.

Comfortably Lomb · Sep 6, 2015

Yaz4Ever said:
No way Harvey doesn't try to back-pedal to appease the fanbase after this rabid reaction, right? Right?

If he is actually concerned about his health, at least so far as it is connected to his future earning potential, why would he? He is being paid peanuts relative to his current day value and is coming off a serious, career threatening injury. A dose of mortality can make you realize the demands being placed on your by others aren't in your best interest. I'm surprised we haven't seen more pitchers push back against perceived abuse, at least from elite talent who have the clout to do so.

curly2 · Sep 6, 2015

Remagellan said:
Given how much of a media whore he's been since he came onto the scene, it appears that Harvey is the type who enjoys being Bruce Wayne more than he does being Batman. Which is as far from being a true Dark Knight as is possible.

Yaz4Ever · Sep 6, 2015

Comfortably Lomb said:
If he is actually concerned about his health, at least so far as it is connected to his future earning potential, why would he? He is being paid peanuts relative to his current day value and is coming off a serious, career threatening injury. A dose of mortality can make you realize the demands being placed on your by others aren't in your best interest. I'm surprised we haven't seen more pitchers push back against perceived abuse, at least from elite talent who have the clout to do so.

Insofar as it may (*may*) affect his future earning potential? A perceived malcontent who will give up on his team even in a playoff hunt (fairly perceived or not) will not draw as much attention from smaller teams who may otherwise be willing to open their wallets for one stud leaving only the bigger market teams who don't care as much about the money left to bid on him. He'll still make huge amounts of money if he stays healthy, but he could make more if the negative perception isn't out there...plus all the abuse from fans and the nuisance questions from reporters, etc.

I could be wrong, but I would think he helps himself more long-term by back pedaling as much as he can and trying to save face.

Comfortably Lomb · Sep 6, 2015

Yaz4Ever said:
Insofar as it may (*may*) affect his future earning potential? A perceived malcontent who will give up on his team even in a playoff hunt (fairly perceived or not) will not draw as much attention from smaller teams who may otherwise be willing to open their wallets for one stud leaving only the bigger market teams who don't care as much about the money left to bid on him. He'll still make huge amounts of money if he stays healthy, but he could make more if the negative perception isn't out there...plus all the abuse from fans and the nuisance questions from reporters, etc.

I could be wrong, but I would think he helps himself more long-term by back pedaling as much as he can and trying to save face.

He has to get there first. Maximizing potential value is nice but arms are perishable and he stands to lose so much if he doesn't stay healthy. Even agreeing with your point: is a possible couple extra million for being a team player and fan favorite worth risking the tens of millions that he would get otherwise based on the raw value of his arm? It seems like a business decision over which minds may differ but Harvey's position on it seems more than reasonable.

Spacemans Bong · Sep 6, 2015

The problem with Harvey's position is that he's actively undermined any attempts to hold down his innings before now. He's also more efficient than the average pitcher, so innings aren't a hugely reliable metric to measure his workload by.

Toe Nash · Sep 6, 2015

Spacemans Bong said:
The problem with Harvey's position is that he's actively undermined any attempts to hold down his innings before now. He's also more efficient than the average pitcher, so innings aren't a hugely reliable metric to measure his workload by.

Yeah, this is the weird thing to me. Isn't the common wisdom that it's number of pitches, particularly those thrown when the pitcher is tired that really elevates the risk for injury?

He's 58th in number of pitches thrown in MLB and 35th in IP. He's only gone over 110 pitches once. BP has him 70th in their Pitcher Abuse Points.

I'm sympathetic to his position but the 180 IP doesn't seem at all scientific. I could see a couple weeks off, or if there was something like the Sox fabled arm strength testing that told him he should lay off, but just stopping at 180 seems unnecessary.

dcmissle · Sep 6, 2015

Lacking an MD, much less a residency on orthopedic surgery on my resume, I would not begin to opine on the merits of this particular innings limitation.

As a fan, I can appreciate that this has epic potential. The Nationals have picked up 2.5 games in 3 days and now trail the Mets by 4 with the Mets coming to town tomorrow.

Remagellan · Sep 6, 2015

If the Mets collapse and miss the playoffs I'm certain that more than one NY mediot will blame it on Harvey and Boras.

soxhop411 · Sep 6, 2015

Buster Olney ‏@Buster_ESPN 2m2 minutes ago
Matt Harvey uses the Players Tribune to say he will pitch in the postseason. http://www.theplayerstribune.com/matt-harvey-mets-playoffs/ … He veered around that question Saturday.

The Matt Harvey Full 180

polka king

woolwich!

Member

Shanghai Warrior

Member

is not worried about sex with goats

Member

stole corsi's dream

Member

Member

Member

news aggravator

news aggravator

stole corsi's dream

Member

Member

news aggravator

Member

is not worried about sex with goats

Shanghai Warrior

Shanghai Warrior

Member

Shanghai Warrior

polka king

Member

Mai Tais for everyone!

chapeau rose

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

mad dog

Deflatigator

mad dog

Deflatigator

Well-Known Member

Deflatigator

Well-Known Member

MemBer

Member

Koko the Monkey

Member

MemBer

Koko the Monkey

chapeau rose

Member

Deflatigator

Well-Known Member

news aggravator