The Goat Thread: Wk 1 vs The Chiefs
- Thread starter SeoulSoxFan
- Start date
I thought Brady was off, but it's not like guys were running open and he was missing (other than the very first play). It looked like receivers were not getting open. His velocity looked a bit off, though. Maybe a fluke.
I want to keep an eye on Gronk. Might just be that Berry covered well and got away with grabbing, but he looked stiff to me. I'm concerned about that back.
I want to keep an eye on Gronk. Might just be that Berry covered well and got away with grabbing, but he looked stiff to me. I'm concerned about that back.
This was an ass kicking by KC because of a good gameplan and great execution.
For all of his faults, Andy Reid is really a brilliant offensive play caller. The philosophy is simple: Get the ball into your hands of your playmakers as frequently as possible. Tactically it is executed extremely well. It isn't just getting Kareem Hunt the ball 25 times; it is about diversifying how he gets the ball. He's going to work out of the singleback, he is going to run out of the shotgun, he is going to run a draw, he is going to run pitch plays out of the shotgun, he is going to get screens and we are going to get him out wide and have him run vertical passing routes. The same could be said for how they use Hill and Kelce. Smith's best assets as a QB are his short accuracy, his mobility and his intelligence at the line of scrimmage and he is in the PERFECT offense for those skills. I remember reading that the media-contrived QB controversy in KC and a KC executive saying that while Mahome has the physical tools, it is going to take years for him to catch up to Smith's intelligence at running the offense. When Reid has time to prepare for a game he is an excellent coach; and he really created a gameplan that destroyed the Patriots.
Defensively they played about as well as you could hope. They rarely blitzed and allowed Brady to have time in the pocket, but utilized the numbers they had in zone to lock down receivers. Ideally, receivers running shorter, crossing routes would be able to exploit this, but with Edelman out the Pats didn't have the right personnel. Amendola was a suitable replacement and when he was in the game he was both productive and the Patriots were able to move the ball much better, but when he went down that left the Pats two main receivers were Hogan and Cooks and they are vertical threats, which is why we saw so many deep balls late. In the future I think we will see more of White/Lewis/Burkhead split out wide to help exploit this kind of a defense. I also think they should have targeted Gronk more; I'm of the belief that even if he is covered he is still open because he can outmuscle guys for the ball.
For all of his faults, Andy Reid is really a brilliant offensive play caller. The philosophy is simple: Get the ball into your hands of your playmakers as frequently as possible. Tactically it is executed extremely well. It isn't just getting Kareem Hunt the ball 25 times; it is about diversifying how he gets the ball. He's going to work out of the singleback, he is going to run out of the shotgun, he is going to run a draw, he is going to run pitch plays out of the shotgun, he is going to get screens and we are going to get him out wide and have him run vertical passing routes. The same could be said for how they use Hill and Kelce. Smith's best assets as a QB are his short accuracy, his mobility and his intelligence at the line of scrimmage and he is in the PERFECT offense for those skills. I remember reading that the media-contrived QB controversy in KC and a KC executive saying that while Mahome has the physical tools, it is going to take years for him to catch up to Smith's intelligence at running the offense. When Reid has time to prepare for a game he is an excellent coach; and he really created a gameplan that destroyed the Patriots.
Defensively they played about as well as you could hope. They rarely blitzed and allowed Brady to have time in the pocket, but utilized the numbers they had in zone to lock down receivers. Ideally, receivers running shorter, crossing routes would be able to exploit this, but with Edelman out the Pats didn't have the right personnel. Amendola was a suitable replacement and when he was in the game he was both productive and the Patriots were able to move the ball much better, but when he went down that left the Pats two main receivers were Hogan and Cooks and they are vertical threats, which is why we saw so many deep balls late. In the future I think we will see more of White/Lewis/Burkhead split out wide to help exploit this kind of a defense. I also think they should have targeted Gronk more; I'm of the belief that even if he is covered he is still open because he can outmuscle guys for the ball.
Eh, maybe, but I've seen games where he looked more inaccurate. Seemed more out of sync and odd decision making then "whoops Manning just lobbed another murder ball". He's 40, so who knows, but offense was ok until amendola went out and scores 35 plus if they convert short yardage. I hear what you are saying and have less confidence its an aberration than other years but still one game at this point
DrewDawg is my other goat. Very uninspired thread title for the game thread and a weak opening post too. Nothing like what he brought last year when he was crushing it game in and game out. Might be the end. Maybe a Wally Pip season for him.
Next man up. Let's fix this!!!
/sarcasm
Next man up. Let's fix this!!!
/sarcasm
I have very little concern about the offense. I just went back and read the end of the game thread from the 41-14 KC shellacking in 2014 and the comments are almost exactly the same: Brady over the hill, McD's play-calling sucks, not enough pieces around Brady, etc. And we all know how that turned out.
On the other hand I can't remember a defensive performance quite as bad as this one - even in some of the other classic Pats blowout losses (e.g. the 2009 Ravens loss in the playoffs) many of the points were given up by special teams, bad turnovers, etc. Here the Patriots actually had pretty good field position most of the night and the D just could not get stops consistently. And the amount of huge passes given up was also something I can't recall seeing ever before in the Belichick era. Just massive amounts of work to be done on that side of the ball.
On the other hand I can't remember a defensive performance quite as bad as this one - even in some of the other classic Pats blowout losses (e.g. the 2009 Ravens loss in the playoffs) many of the points were given up by special teams, bad turnovers, etc. Here the Patriots actually had pretty good field position most of the night and the D just could not get stops consistently. And the amount of huge passes given up was also something I can't recall seeing ever before in the Belichick era. Just massive amounts of work to be done on that side of the ball.
When older QBs fail quickly - especially if you're going to cite Peyton Manning - it's usually because of injury. Manning's neck injury led to an incredibly easy to see lack of throwing strength, spiral and accuracy. If you saw that tonight, then by all means. I didn't see that. I saw a guy having a bad game, partly cause by his two biggest security blankets being either in a knee brace on the sideline or neutralized by the best safety in the game. And some rust for barely having thrown a competitive pass since LI.
If you or someone else has reason to believe TB has an injury you picked up on, then by all means. Otherwise people need to slow their roll. It's one game. And last time he faced KC, that season turned out ok. Maybe they just have his number.
If they can clean up the run D they'll be okay. The man coverage is going to be good. Almost every play tonight seemed to see a Chief coming out of the backfield which seemed to throw everyone for a bit of a loop.
Can't help but wonder what 12 was talking about when he questioned some of the attitudes on the team in the postgame.
Yeah, maybe. Cooks? I certainly hope not. Can't think of anyone else on that side of the ball he may be talking about, unless Gronk was yelling at him in the huddle for changing his diet. ;-)
It's implying that he may be aging and worrying about taking big hits more than he used to. But that doesn't mean to say "OMG HEZ DONE SOSH!" as you decided to generalize it.
Just don't be a jackass by trying to change and over-simplify the tone or narrative of other posts solely for the sake of trying to support your own snarky reply. It deters people from wanting to share their honest thoughts and opinions as to what happened on the field today, which, after all, is sort of the point of the thread.
BB sounded more miserable than usual.
i would love to be a fly on the wall when he addressed the team.
i would love to be a fly on the wall when he addressed the team.
Yeah that was hard to watch...just not sure TB had guys he trusted running the shorter routes. Losing Doler was a massive blow
It's a game thread. So if you want to overreact I can too. I'm not over simplifying anything, he had a bad game, it's pretty reactionary to start assuming some of the things people are already starting to assume. Citing PM or BF is pretty reactionary.
Again, we're upset they lost a game we thought they'd cruise. All three units looked like shit. TB looked like shit.
It's one week. One game. I think people need to settle down a bit. Apologies for being level headed.
Carry on with your collective freak out, I won't try to impose reason any further.
We have 3 very good pass catching RBs and they combined for 4 catches. That has to change.
2014 is exactly why I can't believe people are overreacting after 1 game. Yes, it was an awful game. But it's still a Bellchick coached team and culture. Brady's declining? LOL Let's pump our brakes for a second and see what happens the next couple of weeks.
But that's my point. No one's freaking out. They're just talking about why people may have under-performed. None of us know the definitive answers as of right now, so we're just speculating. It's a goat thread. Why is that so unreasonable?
No one is going to be surprised if TB12 comes out and throws for 350 yards and 4TDs next week and the offense puts up 40. We've all been watching Brady be Brady for (at least for many of us) maybe half our lives. We're not counting him out, just trying to be objective about what may have caused what happened tonight, to, well, happen.
It very well could have just been a bad game. I haven't seen anyone flat out deny that at all.
The amount of big dime personnel with Jordan Richards playing a hybrid linebacker role was unexpected and seemed largely ineffective. That was even before Hightower went down and speaks to complete lack of depth at linebacker. David Harris barely played and Marsh, five days into his Patriots career and mostly a special teams performer previously, was in for a third of the defensive snaps. I thought Wise flashed a bit in his limited snaps as a pass rusher and Flowers at least picked up where he left off.
I don't know if Harris is long for the team, he just looks soooo slow out there in a league where slow lbs are increasingly deadly
WARNING TO ALL.
Reply to the post. Be sarcastic if you got the goods. Dropping in lines like the one above will not be taken kindly.
I expect that every time for the rest of his career that Brady has a clunker, there will be an "oh no, is this it" reaction. And, one of those times, the answer will be yes. I also imagine in the interim he has some more "you shouldn't have doubted me" gas in the tank. Hopefully lots more. But we're all just guessing. Brady was subpar tonight, but he's not my biggest concern. The defense was so awful.
The entire offense after Dola got hurt. Even though they didn't exactly look crisp at times with Dola they put up 27 points on 10 drives (really 9) in 3 quarters with him, which is really good. After he got hurt they had 4 drives for a total of 16 plays including the last 2 comically bad drives.
The offense looked great the first drive. Then it was a struggle. Afforded incredible field position after the turnover, there was the Gronk drop and then the inability to convert the fourth and inches. In fact, there were several very short third and fourth downs that they failed to convert during the game. We all wanted them to go for it on that first fourth down but I wonder if in retrospect it wouldn't have been better to kick the FG, take the points, keep the scoring momentum going up 10-0, and not give KC any "we stopped them cold" momentum. Total second guess there I know, but still.
If you watch this game over again you'll see that on a number of occasions Brady throws to a covered guy when there's a different receiver pretty much wide open that he could have gone to.
They should have scored 40 points last night. And most times given the circumstances, I think they would have.
The problems on defense are going to be tough to fix. Flowers is gimpy. Hightower out would be a massive blow. I wonder if Nink comes out of retirement - not totally idle speculation as he is on record saying that he might not be completely retired.
The offense is going to need to make some adjustments especially if Amendola is out for a while. None of us foresaw losing their top three WR from last year to injury before game one was even finished.
They have huge advantages with their RBs in the passing game. They went to that well a ton in their two most recent Super Bowls. Time to break out that formula again. They have tons of RB depth to pull it off. Also, use Gronk and their speedy WRs to clear out the middle by going deep, and let Cooks and Dorsett use their speed on those crossing routes once the space has been cleared out. Speed works horizontally as well. Easy just needs to spend more time working with Cooks and Dorsett (who seemed utterly useless last night - one game and all but still)
Goats for game one: too many to mention. Not many guys played well.
If you watch this game over again you'll see that on a number of occasions Brady throws to a covered guy when there's a different receiver pretty much wide open that he could have gone to.
They should have scored 40 points last night. And most times given the circumstances, I think they would have.
The problems on defense are going to be tough to fix. Flowers is gimpy. Hightower out would be a massive blow. I wonder if Nink comes out of retirement - not totally idle speculation as he is on record saying that he might not be completely retired.
The offense is going to need to make some adjustments especially if Amendola is out for a while. None of us foresaw losing their top three WR from last year to injury before game one was even finished.
They have huge advantages with their RBs in the passing game. They went to that well a ton in their two most recent Super Bowls. Time to break out that formula again. They have tons of RB depth to pull it off. Also, use Gronk and their speedy WRs to clear out the middle by going deep, and let Cooks and Dorsett use their speed on those crossing routes once the space has been cleared out. Speed works horizontally as well. Easy just needs to spend more time working with Cooks and Dorsett (who seemed utterly useless last night - one game and all but still)
Goats for game one: too many to mention. Not many guys played well.
I don't get all the hate for Josh. Things changed when Dola went out. It is hard to adjust in game to having basically two WR. The offense was cruising in the first half. Josh is great and we are lucky to have him IMO.
I think LB is a huge concern. BB clearly was afraid to put Harris or Roberts out there against that team speed. Not sure DH as DE is going to work out. And who knows what his injury status is. Van Noy looked slow and obviously McClellin is hurt. Marsh was toasted when he was in there. I thought Wise, Flowers, and Butler got fairly good pressure most of the game, I thought Gilmore and Butler played decently, DMC had a great game. But man, LB was a disaster. Also wonder if Branch is kind of getting over the hill. Wonder if we see Nink at some point, but he certainly doesn't help team speed. For all the talk that the Pats got faster on offense, the D looked slow. That being said KC has a unique offense and personnel, they can be very tough to defend. Need to find some answers on D.
I think LB is a huge concern. BB clearly was afraid to put Harris or Roberts out there against that team speed. Not sure DH as DE is going to work out. And who knows what his injury status is. Van Noy looked slow and obviously McClellin is hurt. Marsh was toasted when he was in there. I thought Wise, Flowers, and Butler got fairly good pressure most of the game, I thought Gilmore and Butler played decently, DMC had a great game. But man, LB was a disaster. Also wonder if Branch is kind of getting over the hill. Wonder if we see Nink at some point, but he certainly doesn't help team speed. For all the talk that the Pats got faster on offense, the D looked slow. That being said KC has a unique offense and personnel, they can be very tough to defend. Need to find some answers on D.
This one I found jaw-dropping. KC coverage seemed to be getting it done all game, but the game plan's disinterest in throwing to the backs was maddening. Only 8 targets (4 completions), a couple of which were low percentage deep throws to Burkhead. Did they even attempt one screen pass all game? Absurd.
I think it's tough to put this one on the offense - in general. The two biggest missed opportunities were the 4th and inches that they couldn't convert twice. Get those, and you likely end up with 34-37 points at a minimum. So even with Brady not being perfect, it's tough to point the finger at the offense - they weren't the reason for the loss. You score 27 points with no TOs, you shouldn't be getting your doors blown off.
The bigger concern is the lack of coverage in the passing game. We knew that the DL would be an issue - they were in both the running and the passing game. But the utter lack of coverage anywhere on the field was a problem, and one that they need to address. There are ways to hide a bad DL, great coverage players being one of them. But those guys need to show better, or it's going to be a very disappointing season.
The bigger concern is the lack of coverage in the passing game. We knew that the DL would be an issue - they were in both the running and the passing game. But the utter lack of coverage anywhere on the field was a problem, and one that they need to address. There are ways to hide a bad DL, great coverage players being one of them. But those guys need to show better, or it's going to be a very disappointing season.
I didn't Brady looked bad, but he had a bad game. The bomb to Cooks traveled 60+ yards in the air. The one in the end zone that Cooks got interfered on looked good. And the Gronk TD that got overturned was perfectly thrown.
It looked more like bad decision making and not being entirely in sync with new guys.
It looked more like bad decision making and not being entirely in sync with new guys.
Offensively, the problem seem to be a combination of Brady bringing one of his periodic C games along with the team still adjusting somewhat to the loss of Edelman. Not sure why the back were not involved more in the passing game, so maybe that one is on McDaniels to some extent. My one worry is Gronk, as he seemed to be taken out of the game quite easily, and it would be bad news if Gronk is the one that is nearing the end of the line (although I don't think that's the case). Even with Brady off, the offense was able to manage 27 points and 357 total yards.
Defensively, the unit was collectively garbage the entire game. Unclear if that was just execution, or if KC exposed some real weaknesses in personnel. The Pats were a good, not great, defensive unit last year, and if the unit took a step backwards it could be a long year.
Defensively, the unit was collectively garbage the entire game. Unclear if that was just execution, or if KC exposed some real weaknesses in personnel. The Pats were a good, not great, defensive unit last year, and if the unit took a step backwards it could be a long year.
On the plus, the O line looked pretty good most of the game against a very good pass rush.
Gillislee is as good as advertised. They punched it in from within the 5 on 4 different occasions (one called back). I don't blame him for the 4th down failures; they were questionable play calls with great tackles by Houston and Berry, 2 of the best defenders in the game.
Gillislee is as good as advertised. They punched it in from within the 5 on 4 different occasions (one called back). I don't blame him for the 4th down failures; they were questionable play calls with great tackles by Houston and Berry, 2 of the best defenders in the game.
They have the greatest TE in league history and they refused to throw to him last night.
They have 4 RBs who can catch the ball and they refused to throw to them last night.
They flat out sucked on defense, as if they had never seen an option or shovel screen before. Their $65 million CB forgot what scheme they were running and allowed an easy 75 yard TD, which wasn't the only long TD of the night. Cassius Marsh is a horrible player and the trashiest-looking one I've ever seen to boot.
The entire night was terrible from beginning (Gronk TD drop, failed 4th down convert, failure to get a TD and settling for a FG) to the very end (they allowed Captain Checkdown to look like Dan Fucking Marino).
The whole debacle was completely inexcusable. They looked totally unprepared for a real opponent. Did they forget KC went 12-4 last year? Or was it simply that they had reached the tipping point of ex-Bills on the roster and reverted to playing like the Bills?
In any case they're in trouble. Brees is gonna drop 600 yards on them next week if they play like this again.
They have 4 RBs who can catch the ball and they refused to throw to them last night.
They flat out sucked on defense, as if they had never seen an option or shovel screen before. Their $65 million CB forgot what scheme they were running and allowed an easy 75 yard TD, which wasn't the only long TD of the night. Cassius Marsh is a horrible player and the trashiest-looking one I've ever seen to boot.
The entire night was terrible from beginning (Gronk TD drop, failed 4th down convert, failure to get a TD and settling for a FG) to the very end (they allowed Captain Checkdown to look like Dan Fucking Marino).
The whole debacle was completely inexcusable. They looked totally unprepared for a real opponent. Did they forget KC went 12-4 last year? Or was it simply that they had reached the tipping point of ex-Bills on the roster and reverted to playing like the Bills?
In any case they're in trouble. Brees is gonna drop 600 yards on them next week if they play like this again.
There are a lot of Goats for this one and I think it might be easier to limit the discussion to those who are not.
That said, my focus is on the coaching and player personnel side.
1. The team did look flat from the outset. I don't buy that the pre-game ceremony or the Roger stuff had anything to do with that. Maybe we underestimate the importance of Julian's leadership and presence and maybe that has nothing to do with it. But Bill, the rest of the coaches and the veteran leaders on that team did not have the players ready and focused, and that's not something we can say very often.
2. On offense, the Pats have so many shiny new toys and options that they seemed to be trying them all out and never got into any real flow. I assume that will get ironed out. But then again, we did not see -- at least from the TV broadcast -- many receivers coming open, so maybe it's the weapons themselves and not the amount of them. It's probably both.
3. On D, I don't want to panic as it's crazy early, but I have some trouble imagining how that front 7 group is going to play better. They just don't seem to have many playmakers and they are not stout. I guess now we'll see if Matty P is really the genius they say he is.
4. Running straight at the line on the second 4th down try was a bad idea. So were the repeated Hogan end arounds.
That said, my focus is on the coaching and player personnel side.
1. The team did look flat from the outset. I don't buy that the pre-game ceremony or the Roger stuff had anything to do with that. Maybe we underestimate the importance of Julian's leadership and presence and maybe that has nothing to do with it. But Bill, the rest of the coaches and the veteran leaders on that team did not have the players ready and focused, and that's not something we can say very often.
2. On offense, the Pats have so many shiny new toys and options that they seemed to be trying them all out and never got into any real flow. I assume that will get ironed out. But then again, we did not see -- at least from the TV broadcast -- many receivers coming open, so maybe it's the weapons themselves and not the amount of them. It's probably both.
3. On D, I don't want to panic as it's crazy early, but I have some trouble imagining how that front 7 group is going to play better. They just don't seem to have many playmakers and they are not stout. I guess now we'll see if Matty P is really the genius they say he is.
4. Running straight at the line on the second 4th down try was a bad idea. So were the repeated Hogan end arounds.
They'll be in trouble in this division when they lose their 8th game.
Defense didn't lay this much of an egg last year but was ass through the Seattle game. They might be a bad unit, who knows, but we know from history that 1) the front 7 will play better unless BB isn't the same guy as in prior years. Maybe not good, but better and 2) The big play TDs won't keep happening. We will see the softest coverage schemes in NFL history if need be, but that will get cleaned up.
Maybe the players weren't ready and focused. Maybe they just got outplayed or aren't very good. Hard to say.
Defense didn't lay this much of an egg last year but was ass through the Seattle game. They might be a bad unit, who knows, but we know from history that 1) the front 7 will play better unless BB isn't the same guy as in prior years. Maybe not good, but better and 2) The big play TDs won't keep happening. We will see the softest coverage schemes in NFL history if need be, but that will get cleaned up.
Maybe the players weren't ready and focused. Maybe they just got outplayed or aren't very good. Hard to say.
They didn't look prepared to face a real battle. They were up 27-21 and completely collapsed. That's inexcusable.
Maybe Brady accidentally ate a strawberry this week.
Maybe Brady accidentally ate a strawberry this week.
Brady had an awful game, but any comparisons to Peyton's last two seasons look silly at this point. Peyton was working with Chad Pennington-light level arm strength at the end, still making Peyton level decisions but with such compromised athleticism as to be a bad QB. Basically the opposite of TB last night - I don't think 2015 Peyton makes either the called back Gronk TD throw or the completed bomb to Cooks, nor moves in the pocket at the level Brady was before the 4th quarter.
If you want to argue that Brady's QB brain is suddenly slow a mere 7 months after arguably his second best season ever, go ahead, but I'd chalk it up far more to failing to adjust to the coverage on Gronk, Hogan, and Cooks. It was a bad game, but I didn't see much that makes me worried the end is any quicker approaching than it seemed in the playoffs.
If you want to argue that Brady's QB brain is suddenly slow a mere 7 months after arguably his second best season ever, go ahead, but I'd chalk it up far more to failing to adjust to the coverage on Gronk, Hogan, and Cooks. It was a bad game, but I didn't see much that makes me worried the end is any quicker approaching than it seemed in the playoffs.