The Goat Thread: Week 2 at Jacksonville

[SeoulSoxFan]

Give all the Jags the credit they deserve. They played great. Bortles hit some amazing throws early. The defense swarmed around Gronk.

As for the Patriots, where do we start? The entire team and the coaching staff gets a big fat goat mark from me (worst grade belongs to the OL).

Having said that, we know this will be a different team come November and December. That's what matters. Until then, they need to get healthier fast. Cannon's absence especially hurts. Waddle is a liability at RT. Not having Edelman has Brady struggling to find its non-Gronk 3rd down option.

Onto Detroit, where the hapless Lions await. Get the job done and NE plays 3 straight home games, vs the Phins, Colts, and the Chiefs.

I'm concerned but not worried.

 

[PayrodsFirstClutchHit]

Special teams and coaching.

Both a disaster today.

 

[Super Nomario]

Goats today:
Belichick the coach
Belichick the GM
All special teams
Everyone on D except Gilmore
O wasn't great either

 

[dcmissle]

Bortles 29 for 45, 377, 4 TDs, 1 pick.

Bortles.

 

[cshea]

Clayborn
Bill for the punt

 

[Ale Xander]

BB
Judge
Jason M
most of the front 7
Waddle

 

[PaulinMyrBch]

Linebackers. Drag and under crossing routes were wide open. QB scrambles out of pressure went for first downs. Too much yardage given up at the LB level.

 

[brandonchristensen]

Bill for the punt. There was no reason for that and it gave up the game at a time when the Jags were starting to press.

 

[Blue Monkey]

The D all of it... but especially on 3rd down

 

[Rico Guapo]

CBs besides Gilmore.
DL/OL, lost both battles today.
Coaching staff.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

Bortles 29 for 45, 377, 4 TDs, 1 pick.

Bortles.

Not to derail the thread but since we were discussing this in the gamethread, its worth noting that the much maligned Blake Bortles has pretty much consistently improved each year (just look at TQBR stats for a quick check) he has been in the league, save for 2016 when he took a step back as often happens with young QBs.

The Patriots defense clearly played poorly today and Bortles played one of his better games as a pro. However, he is a decent NFL QB and his doing well against the Patriots isn't completely a function of their failure on D.

 

[rodderick]

Bill for putting together a roster that, Brady and Gronk aside, looked like it didn't belong in the same league as the Jaguars'. But they'll end the season ranked 7th in points allowed and everyone will talk about how they're actually good and points are all that matters, until they faced a well coached team in the playoffs. The Patriots will be fine in the regular season, they'll bounce back, but the defense is still subpar and the offense doesn't appear to have the horses to make up for it against strong competition. It's still unbelievable to me that Brady at 41 has found himself in a situation where he has to carry the team more than he has arguably ever had to in his career.

 

[axx]

Bill for the punt. There was no reason for that and it gave up the game at a time when the Jags were starting to press.

That ended after the fumble.

I forgot about this, they changed the onside kick rules so now it's nearly impossible to recover an non-surprise one. They weren't winning the game unless something freakish happened (like a Bortles Pick 6), there wasn't going to simply be enough time.

 

[Mystic Merlin]

Jacksonville is really good and played at home in a thousand degree temperatures. A loss was eminently possible.

Belichick’s decision to punt on fourth and a half yard with about 8 left in the fourth was the goat decision of the game for me.

 

[bsj]

Coaching was awful. How do you punt with 8 min to go. Trust your team to get 6 inches

 

[4 6 3 DP]

Bill Belichick, GM. The linebackers on this roster cannot compete with NFL speed.
No shame in losing to a very good Jacksonville team at home, but it is a shame that the last run(s) of the Tom Brady era have such an unathletic defense that will need to be overcome.

 

[jcd0805]

Jacksonville is really good and played at home in a thousand degree temperatures. A loss was eminently possible.

Belichick’s decision to punt on fourth and a half yard with about 8 left in the fourth was the goat decision of the game for me.

Ditto, ridiculous to punt there.

 

[Jed Zeppelin]

Goats today:
Belichick the coach
Belichick the GM
All special teams
Everyone on D except Gilmore
O wasn't great either

That about covers it. Sony looked pretty good at least. Given how everything went today I’m shocked he didn’t have a backbreaking fumble at some point.

 

[JMDurron]

The defensive line. They got completely owned by the Jaguars' OL, even after they lost their LT for the game. The few times when they got pass pressure on Bortles in the 2nd half, the defense was able to get off the field.

Was anyone actually expecting the Patriots' OL to not be beaten by the Jaguars' DL? If anything, I was pleasantly surprised by how well the Pats moved the ball in the 2nd half, until they were stuck in "throw it or give up" mode late in the 4th. The OL played pretty well overall, given how outclassed they were against one of the best DLs in the NFL.

 

[BaseballJones]

Bill for putting together a roster that, Brady and Gronk aside, looked like it didn't belong in the same league as the Jaguars'. But they'll end the season ranked 7th in points allowed and everyone will talk about how they're actually good and points are all that matters, until they faced a well coached team in the playoffs. The Patriots will be fine in the regular season, they'll bounce back, but the defense is still subpar and the offense doesn't appear to have the horses to make up for it against strong competition. It's still unbelievable to me that Brady at 41 has found himself in a situation where he has to carry the team more than he has arguably ever had to in his career.

You realize they've been to 3 of the last 4 Super Bowls, and won 2 of them, right?

Goat: Belichick for the punt call. Rowe for getting roasted. Waddle for allowing the strip sack when the Pats were coming back. Hightower because I think I'm faster than he is at this point, and I'm 48.

 

[RedOctober3829]

3rd down defense. That's where the game was lost. They had plenty of chances to get off the field but didn't do it. But 10-for-14 on 3rd down deflates a unit especially given the conditions.

 

[dcmissle]

Not to derail the thread but since we were discussing this in the gamethread, its worth noting that the much maligned Blake Bortles has pretty much consistently improved each year (just look at TQBR stats for a quick check) he has been in the league, save for 2016 when he took a step back as often happens with young QBs.

The Patriots defense clearly played poorly today and Bortles played one of his better games as a pro. However, he is a decent NFL QB and his doing well against the Patriots isn't completely a function of their failure on D.

And Nick Foles two games ago,

28 for 43, 373, 3 TDs, 1 pick ....

Almost identical.

Edit. Rodderick’s point about Brady and Gronk and a bunch of JAGs compared to the Jaguars is spot on. It is sad, close to unbelievable and exactly the opposite of the situation Elway enjoyed at the end of his career.

 

[rodderick]

You realize they've been to 3 of the last 4 Super Bowls, and won 2 of them, right?

Goat: Belichick for the punt call. Rowe for getting roasted. Waddle for allowing the strip sack when the Pats were coming back. Hightower because I think I'm faster than he is at this point, and I'm 48.

You realize that having the greatest coach and quarterback of all time is a crazy competitive advantage, right? In terms of young talent, the Patriots may be a bottom 5 team in the NFL. I don't think they'd rank highly in overall talent level either. Of those recent Super Bowl seasons, I'd say 2014 is the only year they were in the argument for best overall team in the league.

 

[BaseballJones]

You realize that having the greatest coach and quarterback of all time is a crazy competitive advantage, right? In terms of young talent, the Patriots may be a bottom 5 team in the NFL. I don't think they'd rank highly in overall talent level either. Of those recent Super Bowl seasons, I'd say 2014 is the only year they were in the argument for best overall team in the league.

Of course. But the defense made key plays in both SB victories (Butler vs Sea, Hightower vs Atl). Castoffs and "JAGs" made huge contributions on offense (Blount, Amendola, Edelman, LaFell, etc.).

I'd take Jacksonville's overall roster right now over New England's, but when you're drafting 28th-32nd EVERY YEAR, and when first round draft picks are literally stolen from you by the league, it's very very difficult to keep the talent pool at an elite level. See, for example, what's happening with Seattle after a MUCH shorter run than NE has been on.

Jacksonville got to stock their roster with high draft picks because in the 6 seasons leading up to 2017, they went: 5-11, 2-14, 4-12, 3-13, 5-11, and 3-13.

Meanwhile, in the past 7 years the Patriots have gone: 13-3, 12-4, 12-4, 12-4, 12-4, 14-2, and 13-3.

See the difference? You have that many seasons like that for Jax, and you'd BETTER get a stacked roster. That's how the league is designed. Conversely, you have that many seasons like that for NE, it's almost impossible to keep that kind of talent on the roster - guys need to get paid and leave, and you don't have the ability to have the same kind of talent on your team through the draft.

(Of course, it doesn't help that so many of their top draft picks keep getting hurt.)

And Nick Foles two games ago,

28 for 43, 373, 3 TDs, 1 pick ....

Almost identical.

Edit. Rodderick’s point about Brady and Gronk and a bunch of JAGs compared to the Jaguars is spot on. It is sad, close to unbelievable and exactly the opposite of the situation Elway enjoyed at the end of his career.

Elway got that because the Broncos cheated by violating the NFL's salary cap rules, and got punished draft picks and fined for it years later.

 

[eustis22]

Too much yardage given up at the LB level.

They had two (2) first round picks. See any LBs?

 

[twibnotes]

Belichick the GM

The lack of athleticism on D has been a persistent issue

 

[bigq]

Belichick the GM

The lack of athleticism on D has been a persistent issue

They probably should have tanked so that they could get better draft picks.

Maybe they can bring back Jones and Collins.

 

[RedOctober3829]

You realize that having the greatest coach and quarterback of all time is a crazy competitive advantage, right? In terms of young talent, the Patriots may be a bottom 5 team in the NFL. I don't think they'd rank highly in overall talent level either. Of those recent Super Bowl seasons, I'd say 2014 is the only year they were in the argument for best overall team in the league.

How much of a difference in talent is there between the last SB winner and this team?

SB vs. Atlanta and Today
QB-Brady/Brady
RB's--Blount/White/Lewis.....Burkhead/White/Michel
WRs--Edelman/Hogan/Mitchell/Amendola......Edelman/Hogan/Dorsett/Patterson
TEs--Bennett/(Gronk on team too obviously)....Gronk/Allen/Hollister
OL--Solder/Thuney/Andrews/Mason/Cannon....Brown/Thuney/Andrews/Mason/Waddle

DL--Long/Branch/Brown/Flowers....Clayborn/Shelton/Brown/Flowers
LB--McClellin/Hightower/Ninkovich....Van Noy/Hightower/Bentley
CB's--Butler/Ryan/Rowe/J Jones.....Gilmore/Rowe/J Jones/JMac
Saf--DMac/Chung/Harmon......DMac/Chung/Harmon

I don't see a dramatic drop-off. People have to stop with "they have no talent on defense". They've been to 3 of the last 4 SB's with no talent I guess. They have holes which every team does. Look at two other top teams in the AFC in Houston and Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh is winless, just gave up 42 points today, while tying the Browns. Houston is 0-2 including losing to Blaine freaking Gabbert at home. Those teams have loads of front-end talent all over the field(Houston moreso on defense for sure than the Patriots) yet have tons of issues.

They will figure it out and be in it at the end of the season just like every other year.

 

[twibnotes]

They probably should have tanked so that they could get better draft picks.

Maybe they can bring back Jones and Collins.

How about using early picks on D - just a thought

 

[McBride11]

And Nick Foles two games ago,

28 for 43, 373, 3 TDs, 1 pick ....

Almost identical.

Edit. Rodderick’s point about Brady and Gronk and a bunch of JAGs compared to the Jaguars is spot on. It is sad, close to unbelievable and exactly the opposite of the situation Elway enjoyed at the end of his career.

Sooo the Pats should violate the salary cap?? Pats are all ready down 2 first rounders in the last 10 years, RG may just never let the Pats have one again.
Playing and not trying to fight.

This game was not pretty. But Jax is also a really good team, at home, in ridiculous weather, who literally have memes about losing in the AFCCG and getting revenge.

Hightower was never a speed demon, he has been shit on for that lack of speed since day 1. He doesnt get sideline to sideline like Mayo (oh hey top 10 pick). Not his game.

The underneath routes were a real problem and we dont know if that is DH, Chung, KVN or scheme issues. Led to a lot of back breaking third downs.

DLine wasnt great and they need to do better.

Cant wait for ‘blueprint’ to be uttered on shutting down Gronk. The Jax D has some pretty good players that allows that scheme to work.

 

[speedracer]

According to numberFire, the fourth-down punt burned less than 0.1% equity (probably even less with the new handicap on onside kicks), so I can't get too mad about that.

I'm still steamed about CP catching that swing pass like it was a cannonball though. Cost 3% in equity and was entirely his doing.

 

[bigq]

How about using early picks on D - just a thought

Reasonable point. The Patriots defense has been deficient for years. Today was more of the same.

 

[jmanny24]

I'd take Jacksonville's overall roster right now over New England's, but when you're drafting 28th-32nd EVERY YEAR, and when first round draft picks are literally stolen from you by the league, it's very very difficult to keep the talent pool at an elite level. See, for example, what's happening with Seattle after a MUCH shorter run than NE has been on.

Not directed at you BBJ but we hear this all the time about where the team picks. Doesn't that mean it's even more important to hit on early picks in the area of need? Fans have been clamoring for years for the team to get more athletic and faster on D, and he doesn't do it and it shows at the worst times. You know how many front 7 players he's drafted in the first two rounds over the last 6 years, as the league has been trending to a faster D? 3, Jamie Collins (traded), Dominique Easley (bust), and Malcolm Brown (serviceable). That is a major problem, Bill the GM isn't as good as he or the pundits think he is.

 

[dcmissle]

They have lost 2 first round picks in the last 10 years, not 8 as some might surmise from the tenor of these discussions (it’s the Rog!).

The one lost in 2008 would have, if still around, 10 years in the League. He would likely be 32 years old. His absence bears on this year’s performance and last year’s, how exactly.

In any case, the roster is not built in round 1.

 

[Ralphwiggum]

The Pats were shit today and deserved to lose. I wonder if we can figure out a way to criticize the performance we just saw without shitting on the talent on the roster or Belichick’s talent in picking players to win games.

I suppose it is possible this is finally the year they are mediocre, or worse. We’ll see.

I say this as someone who thought last year’s defense was garbage when everyone was defending it because it didn’t allow a lot of points.

 

[BaseballJones]

Not directed at you BBJ but we hear this all the time about where the team picks. Doesn't that mean it's even more important to hit on early picks in the area of need? Fans have been clamoring for years for the team to get more athletic and faster on D, and he doesn't do it and it shows at the worst times. You know how many front 7 players he's drafted in the first two rounds over the last 6 years, as the league has been trending to a faster D? 3, Jamie Collins (traded), Dominique Easley (bust), and Malcolm Brown (serviceable). That is a major problem, Bill the GM isn't as good as he or the pundits think he is.

I hear you. But BB builds the team every year from a deficit starting point, as the draft is the foundation of it all. It means that he has to be SO much better than everyone else, ear in and year out. Look at Seattle. They were flush with elite talent and went on a great run for like 4-5 seasons. Now they're depleted and rebuilding. It happens literally to every single team in the history of the sport (at least in the salary cap era).

Except the Patriots under Belichick.

 

[patinorange]

I hear you. But BB builds the team every year from a deficit starting point, as the draft is the foundation of it all. It means that he has to be SO much better than everyone else, ear in and year out. Look at Seattle. They were flush with elite talent and went on a great run for like 4-5 seasons. Now they're depleted and rebuilding. It happens literally to every single team in the history of the sport (at least in the salary cap era).

Except the Patriots under Belichick.

In Bill we trust. But Van Noy has to have some blackmail pictures or tax documents on Bill. There must be some unsigned FA or a practice player somewhere that has some athletic ability to play linebacker.

 

[twibnotes]

I hear you. But BB builds the team every year from a deficit starting point, as the draft is the foundation of it all. It means that he has to be SO much better than everyone else, ear in and year out. Look at Seattle. They were flush with elite talent and went on a great run for like 4-5 seasons. Now they're depleted and rebuilding. It happens literally to every single team in the history of the sport (at least in the salary cap era).

Except the Patriots under Belichick.

A fair point but for much of his run, he has had a historically great QB who gets paid less than he should, arguably. This is a huge advantage when it comes to building a roster

 

[jmanny24]

I hear you. But BB builds the team every year from a deficit starting point, as the draft is the foundation of it all. It means that he has to be SO much better than everyone else, ear in and year out. Look at Seattle. They were flush with elite talent and went on a great run for like 4-5 seasons. Now they're depleted and rebuilding. It happens literally to every single team in the history of the sport (at least in the salary cap era).

Except the Patriots under Belichick.

I agree with what you're saying but the reason it doesn't happen to the Patriots is #12. IMO he has failed to set the team up for the post TB era and making Tom's last few years by taking some of the load off him by continually ignoring areas of need until later in the draft where anyone would have to get lucky to get a real contributor, and by now I think it's too late to set the team up for when Tom is done. I know people will say it's blasphemy but I think BB actually thinks he is smarter than everyone else at times, to the detriment of the team.

 

[dcmissle]

I hear you. But BB builds the team every year from a deficit starting point, as the draft is the foundation of it all. It means that he has to be SO much better than everyone else, ear in and year out. Look at Seattle. They were flush with elite talent and went on a great run for like 4-5 seasons. Now they're depleted and rebuilding. It happens literally to every single team in the history of the sport (at least in the salary cap era).

Except the Patriots under Belichick.

I don’t think anyone is in any way diminishing the overall phenomenal performance over 19 years that probably never will be matched.

 

[BaseballJones]

Devin McC is a pro bowl caliber player.

Gilmore is a pro bowl caliber player.

Hightower was too until he got hurt.

Flowers has 12-sack potential and has tons of talent.

Bentley is already a starting LB in this league.

They have some talent on D. They don't have enough elite talent but if they did, they'd have holes on offense that we'd be whining about.

It's impossible to consistently have elite talent all over the roster when you're drafting 28-32 every single season. We see it all the time whenever ANY other team rises to the top for a little while. They all fall back to the pack after a few years.

Everyone except the New England f-ing Patriots.

 

[RedOctober3829]

I agree with what you're saying but the reason it doesn't happen to the Patriots is #12. IMO he has failed to set the team up for the post TB era and making Tom's last few years by taking some of the load off him by continually ignoring areas of need until later in the draft where anyone would have to get lucky to get a real contributor, and by now I think it's too late to set the team up for when Tom is done. I know people will say it's blasphemy but I think BB actually thinks he is smarter than everyone else at times, to the detriment of the team.

Where did he ignore need in the draft this year? They needed OL depth especially with Brown as a FA so they got the 2nd best OL in the draft who can play multiple positions. I guess they should've known he'd blown his Achilles out. They also needed help at RB since Burkhead is on a one-year deal as well so they took a top talent who slipped due to injury issues. In the 2nd round they drafted a slot corner which was a huge need Guess they should've known he'd get hurt in training camp. His next picks were LBs in Bentley and Christian Sam.

Next, you'll tell me they needed to draft a D-end last year with their first pick.

 

[EL Jeffe]

Roster management is a worthwhile thread (the resource management on RBs alone is pretty bad) but I'll stick with game ball goats...

1) Clayborn's rush discipline
2) Hightower (if this is who he is now, that contract is awful)
3) Tackling in general wasn't up to their usual standards

I think the Patriots will be fine this year but roster makeup has finally started to catch up to them, on both sides of the ball.

 

[McBride11]

They have lost 2 first round picks in the last 10 years, not 8 as some might surmise from the tenor of these discussions (it’s the Rog!).

The one lost in 2008 would have, if still around, 10 years in the League. He would likely be 32 years old. His absence bears on this year’s performance and last year’s, how exactly.

In any case, the roster is not built in round 1.

Ya but if we had that first rounder on D Brady wouldnt have had to deflate balls to compete!
Bruschi was 30 in 2003.

Ultimately tho, drafting late round is hard. BB takes gambles. Injured Gronk has worked out. Wilfork worked out when he fell. The TE Solder worked out.
Easley, that safety out of Illinois, and others havent.
Gambling on end of career Moss and Dillen worked, Ochocinco not so much. Gambling on some QB from Kent state has worked.

We have had many threads on BBs drafting and other roster moves. He gambles. So he misses. He isnt perfect.
Id gladly take another 18 years of BB doing his thing

 

[jmanny24]

Where did he ignore need in the draft this year? They needed OL depth especially with Brown as a FA so they got the 2nd best OL in the draft who can play multiple positions. I guess they should've known he'd blown his Achilles out. They also needed help at RB since Burkhead is on a one-year deal as well so they took a top talent who slipped due to injury issues. In the 2nd round they drafted a slot corner which was a huge need Guess they should've known he'd get hurt in training camp. His next picks were LBs in Bentley and Christian Sam.

Next, you'll tell me they needed to draft a D-end last year with their first pick.

What I was referring to is the fact that they need to get more athletic and faster in the front 7, and have needed to do so for years and he has ignored that area early in the draft.

 

[eddiew112]

I don't see how you can single out the OL. They got off to a rough start, but after the first quarter they largely held their own against one of the best fronts in football.

The biggest disappointment was the DL. Clayborn and Wise were invisible. We shouldn't be one defensive injury away from Geneo Grissom getting snaps, so maybe give Derek Rivers a shot next week. The lack of an inside pass rusher continues to be an achilles heel, as it has been for years. I wanted to see them address this in the offseason but instead they got Danny Shelton.

Rowe seemed to lose his confidence after that circus catch, which he had good coverage on. I actually thought JMac was pretty good in coverage.

 

[BigSoxFan]

How much of a difference in talent is there between the last SB winner and this team?

SB vs. Atlanta and Today
QB-Brady/Brady
RB's--Blount/White/Lewis.....Burkhead/White/Michel
WRs--Edelman/Hogan/Mitchell/Amendola......Edelman/Hogan/Dorsett/Patterson
TEs--Bennett/(Gronk on team too obviously)....Gronk/Allen/Hollister
OL--Solder/Thuney/Andrews/Mason/Cannon....Brown/Thuney/Andrews/Mason/Waddle

DL--Long/Branch/Brown/Flowers....Clayborn/Shelton/Brown/Flowers
LB--McClellin/Hightower/Ninkovich....Van Noy/Hightower/Bentley
CB's--Butler/Ryan/Rowe/J Jones.....Gilmore/Rowe/J Jones/JMac
Saf--DMac/Chung/Harmon......DMac/Chung/Harmon

I don't see a dramatic drop-off. People have to stop with "they have no talent on defense". They've been to 3 of the last 4 SB's with no talent I guess. They have holes which every team does. Look at two other top teams in the AFC in Houston and Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh is winless, just gave up 42 points today, while tying the Browns. Houston is 0-2 including losing to Blaine freaking Gabbert at home. Those teams have loads of front-end talent all over the field(Houston moreso on defense for sure than the Patriots) yet have tons of issues.

They will figure it out and be in it at the end of the season just like every other year.

As long as the GOAT plays GOATy, this team is a contender. Nothing else really matters. The defense isn’t good enough to cover for any material decline in Brady’s game. Once the decline begins, the leading contender status goes with it.

 

[Mugsy's Jock]

Jacksonville is really good and played at home in a thousand degree temperatures. A loss was eminently possible.

Belichick’s decision to punt on fourth and a half yard with about 8 left in the fourth was the goat decision of the game for me.

This sums it up for me. Tip your hat to the Jags... and WTF Bill?

 

[PaulinMyrBch]

They had two (2) first round picks. See any LBs?

I’m not referring to the talent of the LB’s. I thought they had a bad day, picking up, switching, communicating when they had zones. They had too many guys catching balls with no one near them at the LB level. Even slow LB’s making correct decisions don’t see guys that open. We didn’t get beat on wheel routes where we saw an LB getting outrun. We got beat on stuff in front of us and those guys had room to run once they had the ball.

 

[SoxinSeattle]

Right now I blame BB the GM. The team seems lesser than previous years. The good news is its early and BB teams tend to get better.