The Game Ball Thread: Week 15 at Pittsburgh
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I get that, but get one of those wrong (in favor of the Pats/jk) and everyone would ask why the f aren't we taking a closer look, so your standard - as logical as it might be - would last about two weeks
I’ve got a few Steeler buddies that aren’t Tomlin fans, this won’t be received well. I thought they just flat wasted the 3-4 minute free time out thinking it was going to be confirmed. They were actually told what was likely to happen and they still didn’t have a good plan for 2/3/4 down.
What’s amazing is we’re spoiled by BB and his attention to detail, but some of this shit isn’t that hard. Get out of bounds, call 2 plays in the huddle just in case, throw it away after 4 seconds, don’t extend the play, etc. I mean there are professional football coaches that miss these details weekly. Just nuts.
What a ballsy win that was, just crushing for the Steelers.
Roethlisberger said he hoped they would clock it and get off another play there; I don't get that comment as it would have been fourth down unless he means kicking the field goal to tie the game.
On the play prior to the INT, even though the pressure did not lead to a sack, Roethlisberger rushed the throw, he went underneath instead of into the end zone and Bulter made a great play tackling him in bounds to keep the clock running, which lead to that fire drill at the end where it seemed like Pittsburg was frazzled.
Situational football as Belichick likes to say.
Roethlisberger said he hoped they would clock it and get off another play there; I don't get that comment as it would have been fourth down unless he means kicking the field goal to tie the game.
On the play prior to the INT, even though the pressure did not lead to a sack, Roethlisberger rushed the throw, he went underneath instead of into the end zone and Bulter made a great play tackling him in bounds to keep the clock running, which lead to that fire drill at the end where it seemed like Pittsburg was frazzled.
Situational football as Belichick likes to say.
Amen. Most of what makes up Belicheck's genius is just not making dumb mistakes.
I think he didn't realize it was 3rd down. It seems hard to believe but it is the only way that comment makes sense.
It amazes me how often NFL teams seem unprepared and/ or disorganized.
We hear about how much time these coaches put in but maybe they need to take another look at how they spend it.
The fact that Ben spent the review on a knee resting and praying and that they had only play ready to go blows my mind.
They had almost 4 minutes. What is the OC doing?
At the same time, I think it might be fairly typical.
Out of bounds seems like it would be easy in most cases, but I could show you video/still pictures where you couldn't get 6/10 officials or fans to vote the same way on whether a player was out of not. For something that should be "objective" but still has controversy despite excellent camera angles, look no further than Steratore's measurement in the Oakland/Dallas game Sunday night. But I do agree that more straightforward rules narrow the number of those edge case plays. I just don't think you can eliminate them entirely through replay or better rule-making.
It's fun to make fun of Peyton Manning, but you'd always see him on the bench rifling through those print outs of field pictures when his D was on the field.
That was my thought as well after listening to what he said; his comment was we were hoping to clock it there and then run another play, ie, he thought it was second down.
They lost that game due to a poor decision to try to jam the ball in to a receiver who was well covered, but they also lost because they seemed to be disorganized after the touchdown was ruled in incomplete pass.
I keep thinking back to Belichick's comments in the first Do your job program regarding the Seattle Super Bowl when his assistants were asking him if he wanted to take a time out during the goal line sequence, but he said no as he was looking over at the Seattle sideline and they looked disorganized, so he decided to let the clock run and let it play out.
He really is an incredible coach.
Yeah no one could ever accuse Manning of not being prepared. That's what made him as good as he was.
According to the NFL Films sideline shown during the Replay last night, Todd Haley spent at least some amount of time orgasmically congratulating Schuster on his catch and run. I dont know when exactly that was happening, but when I saw it I thought maybe that he could be spending that time more wisely.
If I could ask Patricia one question it would be "with 52 seconds remaining and the Steelers with one TO on their own 20 yd line, why are we playing man to man coverage?" I hope its not because Gilmore can't play zone because its clear to me that while aggressive, MTM opens up the possibility of the big play and zone seems the safer and smarter play. OTOH, I'm sure he had a reason; I'd just be curious to learn what it is.
Fair question. I think part of the answer is "we didn't plan on Richards taking out McCourty at the 35." They also seemed to be having shallow/middle zone trouble all day because their two most capable LBs -- Harris and Roberts -- aren't very strong in pass coverage.
Wait, the NFL is replaying the whole game to review if the patriots actually won?
re: the bolded: That's simply not true. See below.
He's an incredible coach, but maybe he should have been kneeling and praying instead? The godless heathen.
I also suspect that Patricia and BB have reviewed the play and are making the necessary scheme adjustments if this situation were to present itself in the future.
Contrast that with the Steelers plan to make adjustments in the future is to see about getting a rule changed for next season.
If someone went into a coma at the start of the season and just woke up to hear that Harris and Roberts were our two most capable LBs at this point, they’d probably ask to go back into a coma. Hope the linebacker situation gets better soon, Van Noy in particular. He reminds me a little of the Mad Stork, Ted Hendricks.
Game ball to Gronk, who reminds me of nobody.
As soon as he sees the ruling of no catch, no celebrating or emotion of any kind; he just turns back to his coaches,
My at-the-time three-year-old insisted that Gronk reminded her of this guy:
(which actually makes sense, when you see them flex)
Two superstars. I see it.My at-the-time three-year-old insisted that Gronk reminded her of this guy:
(which actually makes sense, when you see them flex)
Zincman said: ↑
If I could ask Patricia one question it would be "with 52 seconds remaining and the Steelers with one TO on their own 20 yd line, why are we playing man to man coverage?" I hope its not because Gilmore can't play zone because its clear to me that while aggressive, MTM opens up the possibility of the big play and zone seems the safer and smarter play. OTOH, I'm sure he had a reason; I'd just be curious to learn what it is.
I agree with the Richards snafu part but my larger point is that MTM allows for those kinds of snafus. BTW, there were no LBs on the field for that play. Four man rush and 7 DBs. Rowe takes such a poor angle that the play is going to be a big one from the outset (the Richards/McCourty mishap is nearly 25 yards downfield. The job at that point is less about coverage than it is about tackling especially after trying to keep receivers in front of you. IMHO Rowe getting picked by taking a bad angle in trail coverage is bad execution of a bad scheme.
If I could ask Patricia one question it would be "with 52 seconds remaining and the Steelers with one TO on their own 20 yd line, why are we playing man to man coverage?" I hope its not because Gilmore can't play zone because its clear to me that while aggressive, MTM opens up the possibility of the big play and zone seems the safer and smarter play. OTOH, I'm sure he had a reason; I'd just be curious to learn what it is.
Joe
I agree with the Richards snafu part but my larger point is that MTM allows for those kinds of snafus. BTW, there were no LBs on the field for that play. Four man rush and 7 DBs. Rowe takes such a poor angle that the play is going to be a big one from the outset (the Richards/McCourty mishap is nearly 25 yards downfield. The job at that point is less about coverage than it is about tackling especially after trying to keep receivers in front of you. IMHO Rowe getting picked by taking a bad angle in trail coverage is bad execution of a bad scheme.
This is coaching malpractice.
At the end. As they are lining up for the play after the reversal. They haven’t given Ben two plays. Tomlin is yelling at Haley if it’s in the field we need to give them the play. Don’t clock it. Give em a play.
They then wait for the play to happen.
It’s in the field. Give Em a play. Give Em a play. Don’t clock it.
Okay okay. Haley calls in play while Ben is running around thinking spike it.
We all know what happens.
Holy jeebus. Why didn’t you tell them before the play started? Hey Ben. Hey team. If we don’t get out of bounds or score. We’re not clocking. Run to line for play x (or even we’ll call it in). Let them no at minimum we’re not clocking.
At the end. As they are lining up for the play after the reversal. They haven’t given Ben two plays. Tomlin is yelling at Haley if it’s in the field we need to give them the play. Don’t clock it. Give em a play.
They then wait for the play to happen.
It’s in the field. Give Em a play. Give Em a play. Don’t clock it.
Okay okay. Haley calls in play while Ben is running around thinking spike it.
We all know what happens.
Holy jeebus. Why didn’t you tell them before the play started? Hey Ben. Hey team. If we don’t get out of bounds or score. We’re not clocking. Run to line for play x (or even we’ll call it in). Let them no at minimum we’re not clocking.
Wow, that whole sequence with Tomlin and Haley starting at 4:16 is fascinating. It sounded like Haley was still trying to tell Ben to spike it even after Tomlin told him to have two plays ready in case the first one ended in the field of play. Tomlin seemed like the only one who knew what was going on while Haley was in a state of panic and just trying to keep up. It's hard to imagine that sort of scene ever taking place on the Patriots sideline.
Compare this complete chaos to Jimmy G actually reviewing the 2 minute drill with one of the SF coaches while the other team was kicking its go ahead field goal, then calmly executing 3 excellent plays to move the ~40 yards he needed, and clocking with 2 seconds left.
Who's the veteran here? And which team was 11-2 vs 3-10?
Edit: Game ball to Steelers coaching cacophony. Because this is a Game Ball thread after all.
Who's the veteran here? And which team was 11-2 vs 3-10?
Edit: Game ball to Steelers coaching cacophony. Because this is a Game Ball thread after all.
The bolded was my take from the NFLN replay from the other night, which included some (but not all) of what was in that turning point vid.
I'm probably making way too much of it, but compare Haley's exuberant congratulations of Schuster, while the offense was still on the field, with McD's more even-keeled meeting with Brady, even though the Patriots offense was likely done, and he could have afforded to be a little crazy.
Whether it was Haley or Ben or some combination, Tomlin's message of "we have to run a play if 2nd down ends in the field" didn't get through. I think once Ben started with the "clock-it" mindset, it messed up the whole offense, which looks to the QB for direction. It surprises me that the entire offense wasn't aware of the "if 2nd down ends in the field of play, we have to run a play" direction. 1) its what the coach said. 2) its incredibly fucking obvious that its the only way to win the game in regulation.
As someone mentioned upthread or elsewhere....compare this to the Patriots getting off the field and doing the right ST subs-- after a 3rd down Brady run ended in the field of play -- quickly enough for Gostkowski to kick the FG before the half against NO. The all *knew* exactly what happens next.
After that Turning Point video comes a segment of Max Kellerman and SAS passionately going off about how people (including the refs and the NY review guy) don't understand the rules of catch completion, while offering up their own interpretation of the rule THAT IS NOT WHAT THE RULE IS. Kellerman is the absolute worst. He's possibly worse than Shaughnessy.
Another thing that bothered me a bit too is that Rowe seems to slow up once JuJu gets by him. I'm guessing he's thinking he's going to just go out of bounds, but it definitely seems like Rowe starts running full speed again once he realizes he's got a lane up the sideline.
Haley should have passed onto Ben what the plan was. Failure all around. Tomlin looks okay there to me.
I mean, even if they thought they'd get the ball at the 1 after the review, you still need to plan for something happening which causes a player to be tackled short of goal but in bounds.
They planned for none of it.
They’re trying to win the game, which means keeping Pitt from driving about 40 yards and giving an elite kicker a chance to tie. You’ve got to play your best coverage there, not switch up to zone and concede a couple easy chunk plays of 15-20 yards. If they’d done that, I can guarantee people would have been screaming about how the second half D was effective and wtf would you switch to a soft zone with the game on the line.
Also, they still had two deep safeties in this scheme I believe. It’s not a very risky scheme overall. It took a fluke comedy of errors situation to produce a huge gainer.
I think they were in one-deep coverage, with the other safety coming down in the middle of the field.
I agree with you, though, Schuster beat his man, but 99 percent of the time he's tackled for a 15 yard gain. Two guys had a shot to tackle him at the sideline.
Blaming the coverage call for the balance of that play makes no sense to me.
One problem was that Roethlisberger didn't seem to realize the down, did he? He said in interviews "clock it so we get a play" but it was third down---if they clocked it, they were just going to kick the field goal. That is a brutal mistake mentally.
Yeah, I've never got clarity if he was spiking to kick the FG or what.
As was said elsewhere, a significant part of the "genius" of BB is simply being prepared.
Mike Lombardi, in response to the ending of the game, cited Marcus Aerelius as saying something to the effect of "the secret of all victory is in the organization of the non-obvious."
I have no idea what that means but it seems like something Belichick would excel at.
Tomlin had 3 and half minutes to tell Haley that. He's telling just as they are about to snap the ball. He can't tell Ben then.
What the hell were they doing the whole time. Tomlin should have told them to have two plays ready long before then.
Haley should not need to be told and should have been discussing it with Ben the whole break.
Ben should know better as well. He should be seeking out Haley during the review and he didn't need to panic when they were tackled in bounds.
Plenty off miscues there and everyone getting caught in moment and letting game get ahead of them.
Doesn't mean they can't learn from it though.
The whole sequence is surreal. As you said they had 3.5 minutes to prep for two plays and they don’t even come close. This is one of the supposedly better coached teams in the league as well.
Ironically, perhaps the key play, in hindsight, to the Pats victory was letting this play go to the 10. Almost anything else, once he caught it, would likely have led to the Steelers playing for a FG. By getting to the 10, suddenly, Pitt could smell victory and went for the TD.
I still believe that Pitt would have had about a 75% chance of victory in OT, even before a coin flip.
So game ball to Rowe for allowing just the right amount of yardage to allow the pass breakup for the INT three plays later.
It feels weird to say this about a world class athlete, but if Juju has better conditioning he scores.
Watching the turning point video it shows him on the sidelines afterwards, and he’s doing big air breaths and looks wobbly on his legs as people congratulate him. You can also see he has an initial stumble on the Rowe reaching out at his feet, he recovers, but then has another stumble of his feet going wobbly or bad turf that kills all his momentum right at the ten.
Watching the turning point video it shows him on the sidelines afterwards, and he’s doing big air breaths and looks wobbly on his legs as people congratulate him. You can also see he has an initial stumble on the Rowe reaching out at his feet, he recovers, but then has another stumble of his feet going wobbly or bad turf that kills all his momentum right at the ten.
I thought that too through some of the replays. If he was able to keep top line speed throughout, he very well might've scored. I wonder if the suspension had an effect on his conditioning, or the longer season, but he did get winded quickly.
Maybe, but the thing that sorta impressed me too was how the Patriots DBs played until the final whistle and finally managed to tackle him. While watching the play, there was one moment when Juju reached the 25 yard line or so and looked to have a clear lane into the end zone, then all of a sudden three Patriots defenders appeared and brought him down. I would love to see the All-22 of that play because I think at least one of those Patriots defenders ran a long way to tackle him.
edit: found this angle (go to 8:52) where you can see Butler busting his ass to make the play.
I think Juju's best option was probably to stay along the sideline the whole way, maybe getting to the 20 yard line and getting out of bounds, saving the important time-out.
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Yeah, now that I re-watch it, I remember coming to the conclusion that fatigue didn't really keep him out of the end zone. Originally watching, it looks like once he's cut inside if he took a diagonal route toward the end zone he would've scored but he seemed to be too tired to turn the jets on, but now seeing it again, it's clear that he was going that way, saw the Pats player streaking down to cut that off and looks more confused about which way to turn than anything else.
Getting that long gain also meant Pitt had to use that last TimeOut (I know, Ben, you said you didn't, but you did) or they would have lost 30+ seconds getting reset all the way down the field. A 15 yard gain meant they could have "clocked it" or just run a sideline pass play to stop the clock and keep going.
It's funny, because at the time I remember almost hoping he'd just run it all the way in so we'd have a little more time for one last drive.
It's funny, at he time I only remember almost hoping 'what the fuck just happened'? My situational awareness was not very good.
Last night I caught some of the replay on NFLN and noticed that Pitt used a TO on offense with about 10 min left, due to play clock running down.
It's the little things....