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Terry Coming Up Rozes

Discussion in 'Mark Blount's Port Cellar: Celtics Forum' started by lovegtm, Jan 4, 2018.

  1. HomeRunBaker

    HomeRunBaker bet squelcher SoSH Member

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    Well, I mean I've been speaking of that same narrative all season as well and are Offensive Rating IS 27th in the league. I don't know anything about Rozier being traded by next Friday but anyone watching this team play and doesn't see chemistry issues is watching with green shaded glasses imo. We are winning and competing on pure talent and defensive effort......not from any cohesion due to the many redundant players on the offensive end.
     
  2. The Social Chair

    The Social Chair Member SoSH Member

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    They weren't good last year either (18/30).
     
  3. ifmanis5

    ifmanis5 Member SoSH Member

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    Simmons Tweeting out that Rozier is unhappy and speculating on trades...

    Bill Simmons‏Verified account @BillSimmons 13m13 minutes ago
    Unexpected early-season Celts subplot: Terry Rozier (restricted FA next summer) has been unhappy w/ his PT all season, word has gotten around the league, and everyone now knows the Celtics need to trade him... which, of course, makes it harder to trade him.

    Bill Simmons‏Verified account @BillSimmons 10m10 minutes ago
    The teams that make the most sense are Phoenix and Orlando, but neither team should be trading an asset to have a BETTER record this season. Intriguing possibility: San Antonio.

    Bill Simmons‏Verified account @BillSimmons 2m2 minutes ago
    Most fun Rozier Trade idea: Rozier to Phoenix, Boston gets the rights to swap either their 2019 Sacramento 1st or their Memphis 1st (top-8 protected) for Phoenix’s 2019 1st (make it top-1 protected) ... OR, if they decide not to swap in June, just take Phx’s 2019 2nd round pick.
     
  4. bosox79

    bosox79 Member SoSH Member

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    Yeah, a 2nd round pick for Terry Rozier is awesome value. If that's the best deal out there, you tell Terry Rozier to suck it up.

    That's too big a gamble on the swapping picks front.
     
  5. AimingForYoko

    AimingForYoko Member SoSH Member

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    Terry chirping after sucking against Orlando should have told me this was coming but I didn't see it this soon.

    I wouldn't do it for a 2nd rounder though, I agree. I just hope he doesn't become a Melo-like virus.
     
  6. HomeRunBaker

    HomeRunBaker bet squelcher SoSH Member

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    Spurs have their own 1st and the Raptors Top-20 protected which will surely convey. There is a good player match too with Bryn Forbes giving us an extra year of production while the Spurs will simply swap Forbes out with Rozier with Patty Mills remaining in his backup role. Next season you'll have a very interesting 3-guard lineup with Rozier/D.Murray/DeRozan while moving Gay to a 6th man role.

    Phoenix owns a Bucks pick that almost certainly will convey in 2020 as protection is only Top-7 that year so that's a potential value fit but why would the Suns give this up when they are one of the few teams this summer who have a PG need and plenty of money to pay what Rozier would require?

    Spurs seems like they could be a match.


    Unfortunately it doesn't work like this. If there is a chemistry/culture issue and a team is holding a player hostage you are likely shooting yourself in the foot by not moving on sooner rather than later. See: Timberwolves, Minnesota

     
  7. nighthob

    nighthob Member SoSH Member

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    Because if the Spurs are a match then the Suns are going to have to overpay Rozier to go there, when trading for him is so much easier.
     
  8. BigSoxFan

    BigSoxFan Member SoSH Member

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    Assuming this Rozier stuff is legit, or at least based on real events, I think the Spurs do make the most sense assuming Magic/Suns don't cave. I don't see why the Spurs wouldn't be willing to trade a 20-25ish pick for a guy like Rozier given their needs at the position and the fact that they have another pick from Toronto. From the Celtics' perspective, it would work fine since he'd be out of the conference. Simmons tends to have some decent sources so I tend to believe that there is at least some smoke here.
     
  9. moondog80

    moondog80 heart is two sizes two small SoSH Member

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    Right. And while I don't like anything that hurts the Celtics, I kind of don't blame Rozier is he tries to force a trade. Huge amount of money on the line for him, and he just wants more minutes.
     
  10. nighthob

    nighthob Member SoSH Member

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    The Spurs couldn't trade Forbes until the halfway point of the season, I believe, but that sort of deal (Forbes/picks for Rozier) makes the most sense if you're bargain shopping.

    From the Spurs' perspective their PG of the future is big enough to guard the 2 spot, so having a scoring guard like Rozier is easy to accommodate. The Suns should just bite the bullet and try offer a Bridges for Rozier/pick deal. Or if they wanted to be really daring, a JJ for Rozier/Sacramento #1 trade.
     
  11. JCizzle

    JCizzle Member SoSH Member

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    Rozier closed out the first game of the year over Kyrie, if I recall. If he was playing better, he'd be getting more time. I empathize with him, but he'd be getting minutes if he deserved them.

    Overall I agree that it's probably best to move on from him if it's an issue.
     
  12. JCizzle

    JCizzle Member SoSH Member

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    Has JJ looked any better at all this year? Solely based on a quick BRef glance, his minutes are down and he still can't shoot at all.
     
  13. nighthob

    nighthob Member SoSH Member

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    Coming into the draft I compared him to a 6'8" Marcis Smart, and Ainge seemed to like him enough to consider him as a Plan B if either Philly or LA had grabbed Tatum. Those factors combined with Fox's year two leap are reasons why I think it's a plausible scenario.

    But Bridges for Rozier/Boston's 2019 #1 probably works well for both teams. Especially since it gives the Celtics an alternative to maxing out Brown and lightening the near term luxury tax fees.
     
  14. BigSoxFan

    BigSoxFan Member SoSH Member

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    Bridges is the guy I want. He'd be perfect as a 2nd unit scorer with starter potential down the road. Being able to deploy Bridges against the Sixers would be so gratifying.
     
  15. nighthob

    nighthob Member SoSH Member

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    I agree with you, and it's really the most logical swap out there (and practically the only one to be made due to Phoenix's lack of salaries in Rozier's range). Boston would be glad to send back their late first, I suspect, just to lighten the draft pick load.

    Phoenix loses shooting in Bridges, but they replace it with Rozier's shooting, and since T-Ro would no longer be trying to play his way off his team, he'd likely improve quickly. He'd also be a culture upgrade given that he spent his incubation period on a real playoff team.

    EDIT: Bridges also shows promise as a 3&D starter, which opens up so many possible avenues for Boston. Cashing in Brown for a couple of lottery picks would help turn that Brooklyn deal into the Celtics' version of the Barry Pederson trade (the trade gift that just keeps on giving, even a generation later).
     
  16. wade boggs chicken dinner

    wade boggs chicken dinner Member SoSH Member

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    From what I am seeing (not much), he's basically what some people feared he was going to be: while he plays really hard, he can't shoot (.261 3P% and .533 FT%) plus he has a hard time finishing around the rim despite his physical gifts. He's also averaging 5.8 TO per 36 minutes.

    How much is him and how much is PHO is hard to say but his inability to shoot definitely not helping him get more court time.
     
  17. HomeRunBaker

    HomeRunBaker bet squelcher SoSH Member

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    Was in the car for a bit listening to Mazz go on about Rozier, Tatum and Jaylen "not getting it" while Kyrie and Horford do. No Mazz they "get it" perfectly......they haven't gotten paid yet and need big numbers right now. This is why you win with veterans who value winning first since they are already getting paid. This is a business first and foremost.....I don't blame the kids or their reps for wanting to get paid as much as possible.
     
  18. lexrageorge

    lexrageorge Member SoSH Member

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    What they may not get is that they won't get their big numbers unless they play and win as a team. If this team goes to the Finals and pushed Golden State to a 6th or 7th game, and makes a repeat visit to the Finals next year, Tatum and Brown will get paid. By someone if not the Celtics.

    Rozier I can at least understand. He's the one guy whose minutes were most in jeopardy from the outset. Agree that it may be time to see what he's worth on the trade market and take the highest bid, as long as that is not a pick at the end of the 2nd round of the draft.

    Tangential point: the fact that Kyrie is still going off about Murray tells me he may not exactly "get it" either. Seriously, he should show some leadership and take responsibility for a guy going off against his team rather than whining about the last shot. This ain't high school.
     
  19. Average Game James

    Average Game James Well-Known Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    I have a hard time seeing the Suns give up the 10th pick in this year’s draft for a little less than one year of Rozier before he has to get paid. The need for a PG isn’t new, and I have to imagine if the 10th pick was on the table at the draft Danny would have jumped on it.

    More broadly, should the Celtics really be targeting another 2019 draft asset when they could already end up with 4 picks? Unless you think the Pelicans will take a half dozen late first rounders for AD, I don’t think adding more picks for this year is the best approach...
     
  20. BigSoxFan

    BigSoxFan Member SoSH Member

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    Bridges likely isn't available but getting Rozier's Bird rights carries some significant value for a team like Phoenix who needs a PG in the worst way. If the Celtics traded Rozier to a different team, the Suns' chances of getting Rozier go way down.

    If Bridges were actually on the table, the Celtics would have to kick in additional value, likely in the form of one of their 2019 first round picks.
     
  21. nighthob

    nighthob Member SoSH Member

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    There really aren't any decent lead guards available next June, and if Boston trades Rozier to another team the Suns would almost certainly have to make a max offer to him to pry him loose.

    But I agree with you that the Suns won't do anything because their organisation has been the opposite of competent for a long time now.
     
  22. HowBoutDemSox

    HowBoutDemSox Member SoSH Member

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    Wasn’t their GM just given the boot because he was too reticent in trading for a point guard? I’m not saying they should necessarily make any particular trade, but why can McDonough for not ponying up assets for a PG and then not pony up assets for a PG?
     
  23. Papelbon's Poutine

    Papelbon's Poutine Homeland Security SoSH Member

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    I brought up the Spurs either in this thread or another a little bit back. I’d gladly take a future first from them. Like post-Aldridge, it I’m not sure they’d do it.
     
  24. the moops

    the moops Member SoSH Member

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    per Yahoo
    "Quietly, at least seven teams have been monitoring Rozier’s status this season, league sources told The Athletic, waiting to see if the Celtics could begin to field trade calls. The Phoenix Suns have aggressively pursued Rozier, even before firing Ryan McDonough as general manager, league sources said."
     
  25. LondonSox

    LondonSox Robert the Deuce SoSH Member

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    His value to the celtics this year and this offseason is kyrie insurance, but it sure seems like Kyrie is staying so its what you can get for him vs the value of depth and injury insurance.
    With so many teams tight on money that doesn't help either.
    But is a 2nd worth the risk for this season? Maybe a Suns second as it's so high but not a mid to late
     
  26. Bleedred

    Bleedred Member SoSH Member

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    It's painful watching TR right now. He was fantastic last season, and maybe the stress of losing minutes in a contract year is having its effect, but he's playing dreadful basketball. Forget the shooting for a moment. He is having a hard time staying in front of anyone defensively, which is odd given his plus athleticism. His court vision is nonexistent (missed open shooters all night) and he's incredibly inefficient with the ball...pounding it into the floor over and over. SSS I know and maybe the start tomorrow helps (kyrie out), but it's ugly to watch right now.
     
  27. bosox79

    bosox79 Member SoSH Member

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    Terry is not and never has been a PG. He's a SG who can play point. He is incredibly overrated.
     
  28. InstaFace

    InstaFace MDLzera

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    Kyrie insurance is not insurance for departure, it's insurance for injury. Which we desperately needed last year, and if we hadn't had it, probably lose to the Bucks nevermind the Sixers.
     
  29. the moops

    the moops Member SoSH Member

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    I would feel as comfortable with Smart being the "starting" PG as I would with Rozier were Kyrie to leave. I think Ainge likes what Rozier gives this team now in his role more than he envisions Rozier taking over lead duties at some point
     
  30. HomeRunBaker

    HomeRunBaker bet squelcher SoSH Member

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    Exactly. If Ainge doesn't trade Rozier he won't be "losing him for nothing" as having him on the team his season carries a lot of value in its own right.
     
  31. LondonSox

    LondonSox Robert the Deuce SoSH Member

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    I was saying it's both. When Kyrie rumors we're swirling it would have been a nice back up plan, as I said now that part seems unnecessary, but he's still valuable for the injury protection.
     
  32. HomeRunBaker

    HomeRunBaker bet squelcher SoSH Member

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    We saw tonight, as he showed last year with Kyrie out, that Terry certainly is a quality starting PG in this league.
     
  33. JCizzle

    JCizzle Member SoSH Member

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    He looked pretty garbage to me honestly. He made some shots in the second half, but he also made zero effort to involve anyone else. Four guys ended up with equal or more assists. Including our starting center and a guy coming off an injury playing 25 minutes a night. He's a streaky scorer that can rebound, but he needs to make a better effort at getting others involved.
     
  34. HomeRunBaker

    HomeRunBaker bet squelcher SoSH Member

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    Yeah, 18 points on 10 FGA in the 2nd half. He made some.

    Isn't the fact that all of his teammates on the floor had the ball in their hands and making plays an indication that Rozier WAS involving his teammates? Tonight was our highest team assist total of the season while we had 7 players with 9 or more FGA......the players WERE involved. If he were ball pounding in iso and his teammates had few opportunities to make plays then I could see this as him not involving his teammates but we had as good of ball movement involving everyone as any game this year. I recall about 8-9 "hocket assists" off top of my head from our offensive ball movement.

    Our problem tonight was on the defensive side of the ball in allowing Joe Ingles to dominate the game while Crowder had his long awaited F-U game against us.
     
  35. bosox79

    bosox79 Member SoSH Member

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    He is certainly a quality starting SG in the league. Not a PG. I don't know how anyone could watch that game and come away thinking Terry is a good PG.
     
  36. Eddie Jurak

    Eddie Jurak Go Leafs Go Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    I think it is an indication that Rozier doesn't create for himself as much as Kyrie. Both are similar in the sense of not being traditional, Rondo type PGs whose main focus is creating for teammates.
     
  37. HomeRunBaker

    HomeRunBaker bet squelcher SoSH Member

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    Or he can be a quality starting guard who brings the ball up the floor, initiates the offense, and defends the opponents PG.

    Yeah, the Rondo-types are going the way of rotary dial phones did 30-40 years ago. If you can't score with the ball in your hands you make the game much easier in todays game. I agree Rozier wasn't a "point guard" 20 years ago......but he is going to earn a shit ton of money next year as someones "starting point guard" in 2019 as the definition of the position has changed.
     
  38. Eddie Jurak

    Eddie Jurak Go Leafs Go Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    I do think someone needs to do the work of getting others involved, and I'm not sure whether Rozier is up to that. But he's certainly a legit NBA starter in line to be paid like one once he hits UFA.
     
  39. lovegtm

    lovegtm Member SoSH Member

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    It begins:

     
  40. amarshal2

    amarshal2 Member SoSH Member

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    That’s about as clear as he can be.
     
  41. JCizzle

    JCizzle Member SoSH Member

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  42. DrewDawg

    DrewDawg Dorito Dink SoSH Member

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    Perhaps a Celtics prediction thread—who goes and where. I think Terry and JB might be the ones.
     
  43. Jed Zeppelin

    Jed Zeppelin Member SoSH Member

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    Nobody makes enough money to return the kind of value needed to make it worthwhile to trade multiple young guys unless you also throw in Morris and get someone to take Yabusele, which gets you close to real money.

    At least in Jaylen's case there is significantly more value to be had in making it work here.

    Edit: Smart gets you there easier but also leaves you in a spot of trouble defensively (depending on who you're getting back).
     
  44. benhogan

    benhogan Baynes Hogan SoSH Member

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    (maybe Terry is talking, via Twitter, to sports radio)

    Let's do us ALL a favor...

    and not overreact to a slow start?
    and not speculate on trading me?
    and let the season play out?


    after reading those, its probably "and trade me now"
     
  45. HomeRunBaker

    HomeRunBaker bet squelcher SoSH Member

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    They are certainly two of the square pegs in this circle of a roster. It's like Ainge and Magic don't want to do a thing with AD still a Pelican. Whoever blinks first here loses.....and if you don't blink you still may lose.

    Doubt anything happens until after Dec 15th at the earliest until more players become available to be traded.
     
  46. lexrageorge

    lexrageorge Member SoSH Member

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    It's unusual for a contending team to make a major move in November. And there are some of the NBA's crazy trade rules that complicate matters; really annoying that Anthony Davis and Kyrie cannot be teammates this year, for example.
     
  47. the moops

    the moops Member SoSH Member

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    I thought this was shown to not be true?
     
  48. Papelbon's Poutine

    Papelbon's Poutine Homeland Security SoSH Member

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    It has to do with the salary cap rules and extensions. You can only have one designated guy at a time I believe.
     
  49. HomeRunBaker

    HomeRunBaker bet squelcher SoSH Member

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    You can have two at one time but only one can be acquired via trade. In this specific case we could only acquire Davis if Kyrie were either included in a deal or moved somewhere else first.
     
  50. lexrageorge

    lexrageorge Member SoSH Member

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    I believe both Kyrie and AD could be on the team next season, as Kyrie will have entered free agency by that point. But that's a long ways away for a team that has some issues that need addressing.
     

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