I think others have made the point better, but it seems just as likely as the bolded that Tatum is the reason (or at least a substantial reason) *why* the rest of the team is playing so well and everything is running so smoothly.
Round 2: Celtics vs Cavs
- Thread starter RedOctober3829
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NBA.com has this great feature where you can see clips of shots attempted, shots made, assists, etc. Here's another picture that shows how CLE is defending JT. Guess what happens on this play?
Result (pretty easy to see it coming): DW wide-open 3P splash.
Right. Good pull. Honestly I think the Celts offense would look even better if Tatum shot LESS, but I think they are trying to balance winning offense with keeping him shooting because like everyone has been saying, we will likely need some big points games from him.
Have had a very similar thought recently. Like his 9 FGA in game 5 of the Heat series, 34 point win.
That play stuck with me because Tatum spun into White's defender, Garland. It's probably basic for you guys, but my immediate reaction was, why turn in that direction? Had he spun in the other direction, he might have been able to pick up Kornet on the screen or found an easier path to the basket. Nope. kicks it out to a wide open D White.
Presumably, if he shoots less *enough* to enter decoy territory, the defense that the C's have been shredding will change tactics (and then he'll shoot more!).
I'm gonna be one of the bad guys. This thread is full of copium right now. Tatum had some absolutely brain dead stretches last night. Why is he taking so many midrangers? Is this part of the incredible maturity and selflessness y'all are talking about? I think he's playing like ass, and even an ass level for him is still really good partly because he still has a lot of latent value just being on the court as a threat they have to respect. But come on guys, he's not playing well. And yes, passing, defense, that stuff matters and raises the level from "terrible" to "not well".
Guessing as to why JT spun in that direction; here's the moment right before the spin.
JT could go towards Kornet but Mobley is there and JT knows that he can spin quicker than Strus can move laterally. So he spins away from the pick, putting Garland in a bind - either Garland stunts to help JT and gives up White's 3P or JT has clear path to the rim once he beats Strus - thus putting JB's defender in the same bind.
BTW, one major difference between this year's team and previous iterations is that when JT had the ball at the top of the 3P circle, he'd always see at least one guy with a foot in the paint. Even with having the same players as last year (JB, White, Kornet, Hauser), the paint is so much more open this year, it's remarkable.
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So at this point, we’re imo talking about a 1-game sample.
For last night? Sure. For the Miami series? Completely disagree.
So at this point, we’re imo talking about a 1-game sample.
I am going to second @Ed Hillel and @lovegtm but agree with you somewhat.
Tatum was good on offense in the Miami series. He took what the offense gave him and set up his teammates and warped the defense. Watched that entire series and I never once thought Tatum had a bad game.
Last night, he stunk (on offense). I am kind of stunned that this isn't what everyone is saying. As slammin said, he had some real dud possessions where he took over the entire possession and (predictably) missed.
I mentioned in the game thread that his hip and/or ankle might have been bothering him because he was noticeably the last player back on multiple possessions.
To give him his flowers, he was very good on defense. Altered some shots and didn't let Mobley bully him
I don't know if he's gonna play enough to matter, but it doesn't take much effort to really dislike Niang:
View: https://youtu.be/b5vBOXjXbO4?si=hCZB1amv-dt_DFro
Worst part about this is that Niang works out with Brown in the offseason too...can't imagine doing that to someone you know on a personal level.
Also Niang looks dumpy and walks/runs like a penguin and/or he's wearing a full diaper
I want to take things a bit of a different direction now:
With KP out, is this team actually that loaded?
These are the changes:
TL -> Kornet
Smart -> Jrue
Brogdon -> PP
Grant -> Hauser
With the exception of Jrue, people wouldn't call those big changes/upgrades. (I think current PP is an upgrade on Brogdon because PP actually plays defense, but you get the idea.)
Last night was a pretty similar scenario to playing Philly in Game 1 without Harden last year. In that game, they came out incredibly flat, didn't execute for long stretches, and ultimately lost. Also happened a couple times against Atlanta, and even the win to close that out in Game 6 was tough.
This is the same key guys, but they've leveled up massively in ability to focus and execute. We attribute it to "super team" because of KP and Jrue, but it's clearly something more than that at this point.
With KP out, is this team actually that loaded?
These are the changes:
TL -> Kornet
Smart -> Jrue
Brogdon -> PP
Grant -> Hauser
With the exception of Jrue, people wouldn't call those big changes/upgrades. (I think current PP is an upgrade on Brogdon because PP actually plays defense, but you get the idea.)
Last night was a pretty similar scenario to playing Philly in Game 1 without Harden last year. In that game, they came out incredibly flat, didn't execute for long stretches, and ultimately lost. Also happened a couple times against Atlanta, and even the win to close that out in Game 6 was tough.
This is the same key guys, but they've leveled up massively in ability to focus and execute. We attribute it to "super team" because of KP and Jrue, but it's clearly something more than that at this point.
I think one thing you are missing is not only did Smart turn into Jrue, but he also turned into more opportunity for White.
edit: also another year for Coach joe, and a better team of assistants?
Totally 100% agree on those things.
But I think that reinforces the "this isn't just a superteam situation" point even further.
yeah sorry I was trying to add on to your thoughts, not counter them (despite my post coming off that way).
I think this was staring us in the face all year with how the bench was absolutely obliterating teams. Its not like Pritchard Hauser and Kornet are known luxury pieces on the bench. Its a well coached cohesive team that has been bred for domination.
I agree with the point you're making, and I think pointing out that Tatum and Brown are just better than they were even a year ago underscores that point rather than detracting from it.
Not dramatically better, because they didn't need to be. Brown understanding better where to pick his spots to look for his shot, forcing the ball into traffic maybe even 10% less (and turning the ball over less as a result), and getting a bit better at finishing with the left hand all add up for a team looking to take the last step from perennial contender to title winning team. Tatum is unlocking his teammates a bit more as a playmaker and understanding how to use his own gravity to orchestrate the offense.
If they manage to win it all, this is the fun way to do it. Incremental growth, both individually and collectively. It's like watching Paul Pierce emerge as a balanced, two-way playmaking scorer, but across most of the roster.
They are not as good as with KP but even without him, this team is way better than last year.
Let's say that JT, JB, and Al are a wash. I think we all agree that DW is playing better than he was last year and for the most part, Jrue is a massive upgrade from Smart, particularly on the offensive end.
While we don't have Brogdon as the 6th man of the year, we don't need it because we are playing two of JB, DW, and Jrue at the 2/3 spots at all time. Also, TL was hobbled for most of the year last year - it wasn't like he was the 2021-22 stretch run version.
Plus PP and Hauser are upgrades from themselves.
BOS is still starting 4 All-Star level players. Maybe they aren't as loaded as when KP is healthy but they're still loaded.
Agreed. I think it is weird to the point of being an apologist to look at Tatum's shooting numbers for the playoffs (41%, 25% from three), or last night (6 of 18, 5 assists) and say "yeah, this is actually good." It is of course good that he is a multifaceted player who contributes in a range of important ways at both ends. But shooting is one of the ways that he contributes! And throwing up a ton of missed shots can't really be spun as some sort of positive thing, IMO.
I think the key is they always have 5 guys on the court who can shoot the 3, and shoot it well, aside from some Kornet minutes. TL and Smart weren't threats. So even without KP it's a massive change.
Plus, letting White cook.
I think people are looking at them winning nearly every game by 20+, as opposed to the endless brainfarts of the past 2 years, and thinking that Tatum is doing enough other things well that he should get some credit for that.
Right, I dont see anyone claiming his shooting numbers are good. Their overall offense is absurdly good though, and Tatum is a large reason why. His shooting in and of itself is not a positive thing, the fact that he's taking fewer shots/game in these playoffs so far than he has since his second year is a very positive thing based on the way teams are defending them and I think it shows some of the growth and maturity in his decision making we've all been begging for.
JT is not shooting well, but he is playing well. A large part of the reason he is not shooting well is because defenses are loading up on him like they have in the past.
Can BOS win it all if JT does not shoot well? Well, if teams are willing to give the other guys relatively open to wide-open 3Ps, probably.
But if JT is being guarded one on one by OG or Dort or ANT and he's shooting that bad, BOS is probably in a heap of trouble.
Agreed. Just another way of framing this - do we think that if we took Jayson Tatum from last year or the year before, and put him on this years team...and the celts were still be defended the way they are, would the celtics offense look better or worse? Obvs no way to prove it but Id bet pretty heavily on worse.
If he was dominating the ball and scoring more efficiently, and perhaps coasting more on defense, he and the team would be worse for it but he wouldn’t be catching the same flak. Shooting percentages and shot selection jump out at us as indicators/are easier to assess than the other parts of his game.
I feel like there are 2 simultaneous conversations aout Taum going on around here. One is whether he's contributing evewn though the shooting hasn't been there; the other is "when is he going to get his MVP recognition." It's going to take more than beating some injury-depleted teams while shooting 25% from three for him to achieve the latter, and rightly so.
I will point out that one of the players that Tatum gets compared to in "best player in NBA" rankings is Luka Doncic, who is currently shooting under 40% from the field in the playoffs. We're in a great position that Luka and Tatum both had sub-par offensive games last night but the Celtics won by 20+ and the Mavs lost by 20+.
Brad Stevens thought they were upgrades and - caveat caveat etc - DARKO does too. It's particularly heretical because I love Rob, but I think Kornet is better than post-injury Rob. I am very content seeing him get minutes. This is kind of cool:
Jrue and Marcus:
Pritch and Brogdon:
Sam and Grant:
Attachments
Last year's JT would be shocked how open the paint is.
He would also love to have a 50% corner 3P shooter he can go to.
I'd like to think that last year's JT would still be making the correct reads but interesting question.
Who is saying the quoted part? One of my initial posts this morning alluded to the team construction specifically to avoid Tatum having to play the mvp part.
It seems like the two sides are talking past each other to a point....
I think it's fair to say that Tatum, for him and a player of his caliber, was not good last night. He was well below what we expect from him on offense. I think you have to work really hard to make it look like it was a good game or any sort of growth or whatever. All great players have bad games, luckily our team is good enough that we can still win by 25.
It's also fair to say that in the Miami series, despite the bad shooting percentages, Tatum was still good to very good on and was the engine of the entire offense. He set people up and took what the defense gave him. I can understand people getting annoyed when posters are saying that he was bad in the Miami series. I can also understand @slamminsammya bringing up "copium" when people are stretching to talk about how he was actually good in the Cleveland game.
Bottom line, I expect him to bounce back and it's just one game...also the rest of the league is in a lot of trouble if the Celtics can look that good on offense with Tatum playing badly
I think it's fair to say that Tatum, for him and a player of his caliber, was not good last night. He was well below what we expect from him on offense. I think you have to work really hard to make it look like it was a good game or any sort of growth or whatever. All great players have bad games, luckily our team is good enough that we can still win by 25.
It's also fair to say that in the Miami series, despite the bad shooting percentages, Tatum was still good to very good on and was the engine of the entire offense. He set people up and took what the defense gave him. I can understand people getting annoyed when posters are saying that he was bad in the Miami series. I can also understand @slamminsammya bringing up "copium" when people are stretching to talk about how he was actually good in the Cleveland game.
Bottom line, I expect him to bounce back and it's just one game...also the rest of the league is in a lot of trouble if the Celtics can look that good on offense with Tatum playing badly
There is one entire thread devoted to the topic, and a second thread in which most posters think the suggestion that Anthony Edwards might be better than Tatum is ludicrous.
Gotcha. I read your "around here" as in this thread. My bad.
To circle back to the court, do we assume that at some point in the very near future teams will alter the way they are defending Tatum/the celtics, given their offensive rating with him on the court?
So a friend of a friend is Niang's uncle. My friend hangs out with Niang all the time. He even had him FaceTime me to give me good-natured shit for not being able to make it to a cookout in my friend's backyard Niang was at. From everything I have heard he seems like a down-to-earth, nice kid. Pulling Brown's leg was still BS though.
As someone avoiding both those threads because they feel disconnected from the team's playoffs to me I'd only say that I hope we do not let this thread become anther tatum-referendum.
One thing I noticed last night watching both games is that.. while Boston does play slower.. they also were just in control of the Cavs defense. Other teams offenses seem like they’re flying around to the brink of being out of control.. where Boston has a number of players that slowly back their defender down into the paint and get a pretty easy layup.
It had the feel of old timers coming to the gym and just beating the young guys using strength and solid shot making.
I’d expect Cleveland to make more of the layups they missed, but I don’t see them stopping Boston from scoring for any long stretches.
It had the feel of old timers coming to the gym and just beating the young guys using strength and solid shot making.
I’d expect Cleveland to make more of the layups they missed, but I don’t see them stopping Boston from scoring for any long stretches.
Cleveland will make more 3s too. The Cs mostly contested well, but just giving up 42 of them gives chances for random shotmaking to go against you.
The Cs offense is so impressive. They are the best-executing team out there from minute 1 to minute 48, and there's a lot more diversity than with the other elite execution teams (Denver is boned if Murray can't spam the PnR, for instance).
Remember the Bird-McHale-Parish team when Cedric Maxwell won the finals MVP award? If Jaylen or Derrick win it this year, or any Celtic, I’m ecstatic.
He absolutely is. He could (I'd argue should) be scoring more efficiently than he has been. I'm all for him not forcing the issue and getting the ball to teammates with better looks, I just don't know why we have to pretend he can't be expected to shoot over 38% while doing so. I'm fine with his volume considering the context, I'm a bit concerned with his shooting and shot selection, and how eventually he'll have to be more efficient on higher volume to beat teams that aren't as, frankly, completely outmatched as the Heat and Cavs.
If we get Spring 2023 Grant vs 2023-24 Hauser, I do think that's a pretty solid upgrade, yeah. Likewise "can't really jump" TL vs "spent all offseason on his post moves and block footwork" Kornet, which is at least a push. And "injured wrist Brogdon" has a lot smaller gap to PP than "6MOY most of the season" Brogdon.
In other words, the biggest upgrade this season might be health.
(and JB getting a lot better decision-wise, and in his willingness to push a fast break - I was shitting all over him at points last year for dribbling into traffic, but he has worked on the stuff I wanted him to work on, full credit to the man)
I was likely conceived the night after Thanksgiving, 1980, when the celts beat the knicks. That was a really gross way of saying "no i do not. but I read about it!" How concerned are people if Jarrett Allen comes back? He always seems to put up numbers but Russillo/Simmons keep hammering they are better rolling with just Mobley at the C? Simmons I dont trust too much at this point, but Russillo I typically do.
If Allen can't raise his arms above his head, as was reported last night, I can't see him coming back and being particularly effective in the next week or so.