Yes, I am aware that other teams play baseball and confront injuries. Some have the depth to withstand those injuries; others do not. It was widely-discussed before the season that the Sox team had a pitching rotation featuring many oft-injured pitchers. Those fears turned out to have been correct.
Rosenthal: Sox Almost Traded Turner, Were In On Verlander
- Thread starter TheYellowDart5
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Our memories are not always accurate. However, I do think the 2003 Sox fans were more engaged (as you say) and yet also more forgiving. (With the exception of one Mr. Grady.) Which is not to say that there weren't intolerant, impatient, or childish fans. But my impression was that very few people didn't enjoy, say, watching Carlos Baerga making a go of it, even if he wasn't the top-shelf FA market option in all of baseball.
I'd agree polarization in thinking is a real problem - people try to think in zingers instead of analyzing and maybe (shocker!) learning something, or changing their own first impression.
Like if you're psychic and you know Houck's getting hit with a come-backer, I think the average 2003 "serious fan" sends an email, or a post-card, or maybe even a paper letter. Possibly by carrier pigeon. But it would be to warn Houck, right - not crow over the GM. It was a simpler time.
The game was different in 2003 as well. The Red Sox were coming off a 93-win season but still missed the WC by *six* games. Theo takes over and there’s some buzz about different signings like Millar and Jeremy Giambi…ironically two of the biggest signings were kind of under-the-radar in David Ortiz and Bill Mueller. But many of us analytic nerds who post on SOSH loved the new philosophy of moneyball type lineups which were a market inefficiency at the time.
My recollection of that season was that things were kind of touch and go for a while but once the lineup coalesced in June (David Ortiz finally wins the DH spot over Giambi and Hillenbrand was shipped out so Mueller/Millar could get full-time at bats), you really felt that team was turning into something special.
Edit: just saw your response above about 2002….100% agreed. There was disappointment coming off that season but also optimism because you knew they had top line talent.
Writing these two lines back-to-back is just incredible. Have you heard of self-awareness? Do you have a mirror in your house?
Speaking of slinging ad hominems ... as someone who has been reading SoSH for two decades, I would hope you recognize that these kind of insults and attacks aren't really how we do things here.
I think the Bloom criticism and defenses are as simple as this: Bloom says he has a plan but for the most part the team hasn't been particularly competitive on his watch, barring 2021. In a lot of ways, he is the Anti-Dombrowski -- not doing much at the deadlines, signing splashy free agents or cashing in prospect capital for big names.
I was pretty confused by Bloom's approach all the way up until July 1 or so. What changed?
1) Duran emerged as one of the most exciting players in the game,
2) Bello showed he could perhaps be a legit top of the rotation starter,
3) Casas came into his own as a power hitter,
4) Yoshida showed he was worth his contract, and
5) Wong looked like one of the better catchers in the league.
To me, FIVE different things all coming together in a single month, combined with great play from the team overall, suggested that Bloom's approach was paying off. That's kind of remarkable -- and for me, enough to not want him to start moving guys at the deadline just to be "competitive." This team has a future.
RR has spent the last two pages--and, well, the last few years--insulting and belittling posters with whom he disagrees.
If SOSH is going to call out posters for insulting each other, it should do so when its "lifetime members" do so, not just when lurkers respond in kind.
Can't disagree with any of this, but it's pretty remarkable that all of those things have gone as well as they have and yet the team is still the same mediocre pretender as last year.
I am not sure what you base that on, but if you are right the f
I was 31 in 04 and was as shocked as every other Sox fan that they actually won. When FSG bought the Sox, they bought a team that hadn't won in 84 years and was firmly in the Yankees shadow. The Red Sox are now the third most valuable franchise in baseball, but their on field payroll doesn't reflect that. Bloom was dealt a bad hand when it comes to money that isn't on the field, but most of that will be gone soon and the time will come for him to demonstrate that he can be the GM of a 4.5 billion dollar franchise or not. Adding Urias might be great for the future and he might be great for this season, but Bloom kept players he could have dealt to bring in more prospects and he didn't add to really help the ML roster. Big market teams, and I think we can all agree that the Sox are one, will normally buy or sell at the deadline. Bloom really chose to do neither, preferring smaller moves.
I would take this a step further and say that, pre-'04, it really felt like a championship-or-bust mentality specifically because of the long drought. I think today's fans are much more comfortable with 2003-style seasons -- or 2002 or even 2001, for that matter -- because of the recent history of championships. It's the last-place finishes (yes, even ones with an above .500 record) that don't sit well.
And I say all that as somebody who was comfortable with Bloom's approach to the deadline given the circumstances at play a week ago.
The Yankees had an even less productive deadline than the Red Sox (traded only for an ok relief pitcher) & have more expiring guys they could have moved on from. & are a big market team.
I was hoping for more interesting activity, but it is what it is.
Yeah you’d think they would be playing better but I think a lot of the underperformance relative to those qualifiers is because most of the bad fortune of the 2023 team has been veterans that aren't necessarily part of the long term plan but were crucial to 2023 (Kluber, Chris Sale, Kike Hernandez, Trevor Story…though Story has 4 more years but he was a huge part of 2023’s plans prior to his January surgery…even Devers was struggling for quite a while but has since turned it around somewhat).
So in that sense, the future it looking brighter than it has in a long time while 2023’s ambitions have taken a hit.
Perhaps if the lurkers also had a track record of contributing something useful their comments critical of "lifetime members" might carry more weight and be taken more seriously.
Yes, of course, lurkers with opinions that diverge from very active members should be willing to withstand insults! A wonderful hazing ritual. I suppose some people never leave the frat house.
I think the strategy here is fairly self-evident. They think they have a shot at a post-season berth, so they're not in a sell-at-all-costs bucket.
In the "how do they improve" bucket, they probably had good (or at least not bad) reports on Whitlock, Houck, Sale, and Story. Those players happen to address the most glaring needs on the club for this season. So there's really not much for the club to do in terms of marginal improvement. Urias becomes a good player for the middle infield mix, as Chang and Reyes become that much more expendable.
It's really just a question of their holding on for a week more, then transitioning those injured players back in. Or, that's what appears to be motivating the choices here. I think if Sale and Houck were known to be down for the season we'd have seen a more active approach in acquiring a starter.
RR has gotten plenty of pushback and moderation and even the occasional suspension in recent years, lurkers (understandably) do not get as much slack. I get that BOS fans are livid right now but keep your posts to talking about baseball and not the pros and cons of other posters, please.
@Rovin Romine has been called out many times in the past (deservedly in a lot of cases) for being mean to people. But they also have a history of providing useful commentary, and furthering discussions throughout the entire site.
You've been a member for 17 years and more than half of your 17 contributions to the site are you shit posting in this thread for the entire day today.
It isn't a hazing ritual, and while I am not a mod, nor do I want to be one, I wouldn't be surprised if your account doesn't last much longer if you keep it up. There's a lot of people with a lot of different feelings about this team, its future and its past around here, and the large majority of them manage to post things with data to back it up, and with some semblance of trying to make this community a fun and enjoyable place to talk about the Red Sox and sports in general. What you are currently engaging in is doing none of that.
Oh, I'll admit to that.
But on the other hand, sometimes it's best not to waste time in feeding lurkers by earnestly and very respectfully relitigating fact-based issues that have already been hashed out again and again and again. And again. Which apparently they say they've read.
But, sure, let's do so as to be respectful of their lividity. Again.
Some guys get injured, and some seem to get injured a lot, and so the club builds in a certain amount of redundency (Kluber, Tapia, Aquaman, etc.)
But Duvall, Chang, Houck, Schreiber, were pretty much in the freak/random category and impacted the club by being out for large chunks of the season. One would have to truly be psychic to predict those things.
Story, Sale, and Whitlock were probably less random, but that would require an actual discussion (which has been had) to parse out the level of risk, usage, and coverage for the club, as well as the unfortunate clustering of injuries.
Hence the shorthand. In case it needed explaining. Which it apparently did.
One problem, which every team has to deal with, is that the 40 man roster size needs to be bigger for today's game. When they raised rosters from 25 to 26, they kept the 40 man the same, so that is 1 right there. My suggestion at the minimum would be to create a subset of the 40 man, where you can place up to 5 younger prospects who you want to protect but who are then banned from MLB action that whole season. This would allow GMs to build better roster depth, but it won't be changed until at least the next CBA unfortunately.
I was 31 in 2004. I have seen every version of the RS. Butch Hobson era, early 80’s signing softball looking players for free agency, Matt Young, the reprehensible Bobby Valentine, Joe Kerrigan throwing Pedro to the wolves.
Since Theo, with a few years I have always felt that this team was championship driven. They have almost always felt like they were championship caliber teams or really close to .
Comparing things to 2004 is probably fruitless but at the deadline Theo said I am making a major franchise altering move because I want to win right now. Minky and OCAB were two guys who weren’t acquired for the future. They would both be out of Boston within one year.
Maybe I am just not used to a rebuild. Maybe I don’t think you can have a 230 million and charge the highest ticket prices and then tell your fans you are not championship driven for the next 2-3 years. Maybe I don’t like the fact that the Owners are everywhere when they are winning and in the mix, and I know have a better chance of seeing them on the back of a milk carton then onTV addressing the last few seasons. Maybe I don’t like that they had NESN whitewash the video of the boos from their town hall debacle this past winter.
Maybe I don’t like that we are a big market club and we had our starting CF playing a horrendous version of SS all season.
Maybe I just needed to vent
Since Theo, with a few years I have always felt that this team was championship driven. They have almost always felt like they were championship caliber teams or really close to .
Comparing things to 2004 is probably fruitless but at the deadline Theo said I am making a major franchise altering move because I want to win right now. Minky and OCAB were two guys who weren’t acquired for the future. They would both be out of Boston within one year.
Maybe I am just not used to a rebuild. Maybe I don’t think you can have a 230 million and charge the highest ticket prices and then tell your fans you are not championship driven for the next 2-3 years. Maybe I don’t like the fact that the Owners are everywhere when they are winning and in the mix, and I know have a better chance of seeing them on the back of a milk carton then onTV addressing the last few seasons. Maybe I don’t like that they had NESN whitewash the video of the boos from their town hall debacle this past winter.
Maybe I don’t like that we are a big market club and we had our starting CF playing a horrendous version of SS all season.
Maybe I just needed to vent
July was a bit of a mirage in that that pitching was outstanding and the hitting came and went. It was easy for us fans to think, "As soon as everyone starts hitting again, and Story relieves us if our one black hole in the lineup, we'll really be cooking ". Starters, even good ones, don't put up Quality starts game after game. And the relief corp was putting up zeroes every night. Not realistically sustainable. If they were cleaner on defense and smarter onthe base paths, they could steal a couple games every month, but I'm starting to agree with the naysayers that thist team just ain't got it in them. I'll keep watching and hope to be proven wrong.
Comparing 2004 to this year in terms of deadline moves is absolutely fruitless. 2004 was a team that was coming off being five outs from the World Series and was build to win right then and there. It was the last season of Pedro and Lowe and possibly the last for Varitek. They'd gone all out to get Schilling to bolster the rotation. They'd signed a big money closer. That was by all accounts an *old* team. Since it's vogue to talk about windows, that team's window was on the verge of closing (and it slammed shut by the end of 2005). That and 86 years of drought made that much more desperate times than where this 2023 team finds itself. This team's window is on the verge of opening. They're not quite there yet. Bloom pushing the chips in now the way Theo did in 2004 would be foolish.
It depends on what your goal is. If you want a major league team to be able to hoard as many players as possible in case they happen to need them, then increasing the 40 man roster makes sense. But if you want as many players as possible to get a shot in the major leagues, then you keep the limit in place and force teams to allow fringe players to be grabbed by other teams that might have a spot for them.
Sure seems like a lot of people are conflating "the Red Sox are a big market team and every game they play should be meaningful in the three Wild Card spots era" and "everything short of a WS title is utter failure". 2021 was fun, most fans thoroughly enjoyed that season. Don't recall doom and gloom surrounding the 2008-2010 Red Sox either. This perspective that the fanbase has become uniquely entitled or whatever after the 4 World Series wins is so tired.
This is an excellent analysis of the situation. I would also add that I think it tends to fly under the radar to most fans how poorly the Red Sox drafted prior to Bloom and after Theo. I think in decades past like the 1990s into the 2000s, a big market team like Boston could paper over bad drafts with free agents.
But two things have happened since then:
1. Fewer elite free agents hit the market now than back then. Teams have gotten smarter at buying out some of the prime FA years.
2. Luxury tax penalties and revenue sharing. This is also partly responsible for #1.
Eventually, you need to draft well to field a perennial contender and the Red Sox weren’t doing that after Theo left. I think the tide has turned under Bloom, however. But we had to pay the price with these “bridge” years 2021-2023. We managed to turn the 2021 team into an exciting ride that I won’t soon forget, but years like last year and this year are probably more the norm.
But I fully expect 2024 to look different given the big breakouts we’ve seen from Bello, Casas, Wong, and Duran. We can even throw Houck in there if he can resume the corner he was turning right when he got injured. I think there rightfully should be a higher standard going into 2024 and beyond.
I'd add a third thing to what has happened since then, and that's draft slotting and bonus limits. A bunch of Theo's success in the draft was down to grabbing guys who had sign-ability questions and overpaying them relative to where they taken. Obviously that's something teams can still do with the current draft set-up, but they're limited to one or two of those guys and then underpaying the rest. Theo (and he wasn't alone) was able to overpay any draftee he wanted.
Yes and no; I think there were plenty of woosox players that could have seen time in Boston this year due to injuries, except then you have to cut someone from the 40 man when people come off the IL, so we get the totally fungible Garzas and Caleb Hamiltons of the world instead because our best assets would get claimed. It's a strange tier of playable but not good that gets rewarded sometimes, rather than the best available option.
This would be the third time since 1995 the Yankees' win total likely won't put them on a pace that would contend for a third WC spot the last week of the season. This could be the third time in the past 4 full seasons for the Sox.
Not quite. Some of us are old enough to remember the travesty of Buddy LeRoux's takeover of the team in the early 1980's. Ownership set fire to any remaining fan goodwill that had built up during the incredible 1970's run. The Red Sox were an afterthought in the first half of the 1980's (average attendance at Fenway Park dropped to 20,514 in 1984) before Jean Yawkey and John Harrington pushed LeRoux aside, Roger Clemens arrived on the scene and the surprise 1986 season run happened. During those dark days, you could just show up at Fenway 15 minutes before game time and buy a ticket, and the fights in the stands might be more entertaining than the game itself. I will gladly take the current supposed disappointment any day over that era.
I lived in Boston in those days and I often just went to 30-50 games per year in the pre-86 era on the spur of the moment (tickets were cheap and the seats plentiful). By the end of the decade I went to work for the team just so that I could see the games for free.
Indeed.
Additionally, 91-97 wasn't exactly a glorious time at Fenway. There were star players, but nobody was surprised when you started to follow individual player goals in August.
The obvious exception of the magical '95 Tim Wakefield fueled season, and at that point it was pretty awesome just to win the division as we did. I don't remember being grievously crushed that we lost to the Juggernaut Cleveland club; disappointed, yes, and sure one hoped for a better showing, but it was hardly unexpected.
The 98 and 99 teams were fun: they had a generational talent (Pedro), some great players (Vaughn, Garciaparra), a handful of good ones, but then the floor kind of dropped out from under them. Which made any injury to a key player a potentially season threatening event. But with Pedro, every 5th game was a must-see event.
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