Their window should be wide open next year & they have plenty of money to spend this off season.
I'm glad they didn't do it, but it's not a crazy thing to consider.
Rosenthal: Sox Almost Traded Turner, Were In On Verlander
- Thread starter TheYellowDart5
- Start date
I'm glad they didn't do it, but it's not a crazy thing to consider.
They have two big holes, SS and 2B. And one of those is soon to be addressed with the return of Story. Sure, that leaves 2B, but every contender has a spot or two they could improve (case in point, the Dodgers are starting Kike Hernandez right now)
A top 3 of Verlander, Bello and Paxton would've been pretty nice to bring into the playoffs.
I'm not even saying the Sox should've gone all-in on Verlander, but if the price is right, why not help the team and see if they can make a run? The price wasn't right, so they didn't, which makes sense as I said in my last post about the timeline Chaim's been building for.
Just as an aside, assuming they have it right, the only number that really matters (or should really matter) is the luxury tax number.
According to Spotrac NYM picked up enough on both Scherzer and Verlanderto make each player cost their respective teams $0 against the threshold this season. $22.5m next year for Max counts against Texas (https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/texas-rangers/payroll/2024/) and $22.5 for Verlander in 2024 and $17.5 if the 2025 option vests.
There are reasons these deals may not have happened (would either have waived their NTC for Boston; did NYM even like any of our prospects, etc) and it's more than fine not to want the pitcher overall but a 1yr $22m commitment doesn't seem all that onerous. The Sox wasted far more than that at the end of their roster and guys that have since been DFA'ed. Maybe they'll do the same next year - or they could have used it for a (still) very good 2nd starter and paid MLB minimum for the end of the roster / DFA'ed guys instead.
When does the press say "mea culpa" when, in fact Chaim *did* upgrade the team, with its new starting Second Baseman, Luis Urìas.
FWIW, Cot's says different about Verlander. They have him as a ~$4M hit on the Astros books for this year and $18.3M next. Not that it makes a big difference in the long run. Verlander wasn't coming to Boston regardless of what the Mets were covering because he preferred Houston.
Probably never… Unless the Sox win the WS.
Way too easy a take for clicks and engagement.
Or Bloom is just permanently on the fence and won’t go all in on either side
Out of all of the things to call out the Boston media for…this definitely isn’t one of them.
They lost a game against a good team by 1 run this year, so you quoted a post about next year & said they will not be good next year.
Thank you for noticing how elite I am, though?
To add a little more context - this is a flawed team that was projected to win 77.5 games this year. Beyond that, they have had more than their share of injuries, even when factoring in the injury histories of some of our players, & this is a tax resetting season.
You are not hurting my feelings by overreacting to a flawed baseball team losing a game. You aren't really doing much to further the message board or intelligent conversation, but that's not for me to arbitrate.
If we want to rehash the trade deadline here, there isn't a lot of low-hanging fruit that wasn't quite expensive. Sure, the Sox were looking at everyone that was available, especially for starting pitching, but the cost was more than they were willing to pay. They got someone for second base, not a game changer, perhaps better than what they had going into the deadline but an incremental upgrade at best.
The two core problems with this edition of the Sox is that the bullpen is over-taxed by having to go two bullpen games in the rotation and defense. Pitching was too expensive and there isn't a magic pill for upgrading defense mid-season without trading off starters and sacrificing bats. Unfortunately, the worst defenders are the better hitters. Devers, Casas, and Yoshida are not going anywhere.
The two core problems with this edition of the Sox is that the bullpen is over-taxed by having to go two bullpen games in the rotation and defense. Pitching was too expensive and there isn't a magic pill for upgrading defense mid-season without trading off starters and sacrificing bats. Unfortunately, the worst defenders are the better hitters. Devers, Casas, and Yoshida are not going anywhere.
I’m with you here. This completely absurd McAdam piece doesn’t even mention Urias’s name, writing that the Sox did “(virtually) nothing.” Instead, he focuses the entire article wondering whether Bloom has enough job security to avoid getting fired.
No acquisition is a sure bet to stick. But I don’t think we’ve seen any sober post-deadline analysis that clearly states that we may have found 2 1/2 years of an above-average 2B, one who is only 26 with no history of platoon splits. If our deadline transactions consisted of Pablo Reyes on a waiver claim, then sure, “virtually nothing” makes sense.
But it wasn’t. Urias is a former top prospect who put up a 111 wRC+ in his age 24-25 seasons. That’s a better mark than Corey Seager, Jonathan India, Tommy Edman, Ozzie Albies, Trevor Story, Gleyber Torres, Trea Turner, Jason Kipnis and Shohei Ohtani put up in theirs. Is he a sure bet to have those guys’ careers? Of course not. But I’d expect people, especially the Boston media, to be able to offer analysis that extends beyond a guy with a .145 average over 20 bad games rushing back from an injury.
Hate to correct you but it is indeed a fact the Red Sox are in last place. And I can reasonably make the statement based on how this team is being operated they are unlikely to make the improvements necessary to contend next season. If you believe there are "facts" that will prove the team is likely to be competitive next season, sounds like you should be rushing out to place some bets that will pay off handsomely.
What, were you just waiting for the Sox to fall a half-game out of 4th place to declare them losers? Looks like someone here has an agenda. There is no objective standard by which to proclaim the Sox are "unlikely" to be competitive next year....Whatever that means.
McAdam undersells the potential of the Urias deal but I’m not sure I read that column as “absurd” and actually think, for a beat writer, that’s a remarkably level-headed piece discussing the future of the franchise, how Bloom and ownership are proceeding and what some of the steps Bloom will still have to take are to ensure the Sox contend next year (one more RHH and a top of the rotation starter, among other things).
Irrespective of whether Urias turns out to be a stud or a dud, as McAdam says, Bloom didn’t act like a guy who spent last week trying to save his job – nor does McAdam suggest he should’ve, as a number of other writers have.
Player A: 236/332/389
Player B: 252/299/394
Sox dumped B (Arroyo, a former top prospect with a solid pedigree), for A (Urias). Added some payroll.
Maybe this will end up being a great move down the road but I don’t think many around baseball consider the Sox landing Urias as a huge get or a move likely to impact the playoff race.
Player B: 252/299/394
Sox dumped B (Arroyo, a former top prospect with a solid pedigree), for A (Urias). Added some payroll.
Maybe this will end up being a great move down the road but I don’t think many around baseball consider the Sox landing Urias as a huge get or a move likely to impact the playoff race.
You used one fact. Try using some more to back up your opinion that they will not be competitive next year.
This was your post that I was replying to originally. The goalpost is in the same place it has been.
Last edited:
Urias has a career 4.5 fWAR/7.1 bWAR, Arroyo has only managed 0.5/1.9 with an extra year played.
Sometimes fans have to just accept the fact that it is unrealistic to expect playoff and WS contention every year. The timing is off this year and a reset was long overdue. I will never forget or forgive Henry and Bloom for dealing away Betts, but other than that other roster decisions have been fairly reasonable.
I think everyone can now see the Sox falling off the cliff and that their "playoff contender status" earlier in July was a mirage.
The team as currently constructed is just not good enough. Bloom not making any meaningful deals at the deadline, likely reinforced to the players that management does not think they are good enough either.
Bloom is right. The sox are simply not good enough to justify shipping out futures for a rental.
I think everyone can now see the Sox falling off the cliff and that their "playoff contender status" earlier in July was a mirage.
The team as currently constructed is just not good enough. Bloom not making any meaningful deals at the deadline, likely reinforced to the players that management does not think they are good enough either.
Bloom is right. The sox are simply not good enough to justify shipping out futures for a rental.
I can see that, I think the logical response is…if the team isn’t good enough to contend and it was a sellers market, then they probably should have sold. Or course, there are potential negative repercussions to doing that, which surely are part of the thought process.
I mean in a vacuum taking a chance on Urias is ok. But, the bigger picture is that the pitching staff has been extremely taxed due to the 2 out of every 5 bullpen games for weeks. They badly needed some reinforcements and nothing was done. Even in the extreme short term, with this series vs. Toronto which is huge they should have tried to get even just one starter so that they didn't have to keep going with the 2 bullpen games. The one pitcher they did get in the days leading up to the deadline in Llovera is terrible.
The 2023 Sox are projected for 84 wins with an unlucky Pythagorean record in an obscenely tough division, have a rapidly rising farm system, and are getting out from under the weight of some gnarly deals. They'd be fools to fire Bloom at this point. I can absolutely understand frustration surrounding some decisions but frustration isn't enough.
Cut to 3 years from now, if the prospects don't come through and aren't converted to veteran talent, they're treading .500 still, and the good cost controlled talent starts getting pricy...sure. But IMO we are starting to see the fruits of this method and it's worth seeing it out.
Cut to 3 years from now, if the prospects don't come through and aren't converted to veteran talent, they're treading .500 still, and the good cost controlled talent starts getting pricy...sure. But IMO we are starting to see the fruits of this method and it's worth seeing it out.
As someone who was pretty down on him last year, I think it’s surprising Chaim is getting so much criticism this year. I mean, Jesus - with Verdugo’s defensive emergence and Wong looking like one of the better catchers in the league, we should all feel better about the Mookie trade. Winchowski’s performance definitely makes the Beni move seem better, and i think we all have to admit that his signing of Yoshida - when he was the only one anywhere valuing him that high- makes him look like a genius. I also distinctly remember many here thinking that he should have dumped Duran in the off-season. His patience there has obviously been huge. Sure, he wasted some money on a one year deal on an old pitcher. That’s hardly that destructive. And he then decided to not go all in on a team that is a borderline wild-card team at best. I personally would far prefer keeping Rafaela and Yorke than spending that high on a rental, especially when pitching and IF help is on its way soon from the IL. I can’t help but also feel hopeful that the 2b we got for a lottery pick has a chance of ending up one of his best trades yet.
I suspect this is the case too…. This team is a better team than last years. It has a great future but if they miss the playoffs 3 years in a row, Bloom (and Cora) will be gone but Bloom will make whoever replaces him look good to the general fan.
Yeah, I am neutral on Bloom and pretty much unsurprised by how this season is going. But I am relatively optimistic about 2024 and part of that is because I do not believe there is a world where John Henry signed on to a plan that included missing the playoffs three years in a row.
IMO yes. Also IMO, I don't put a whole lot of weight on last place if you've played .500 ball or better. Record wise, the season on the whole has been about where most of us felt it would be, but the road to getting there has been extremely frustrating to watch. At times the Sox have looked like two completely different teams. Injuries have certainly played a huge part. The team has played some pretty solid baseball despite the injuries and have followed it up with periods of ineptness. Bloom has to own this roster, he built it, but as I said the team's overall record is what most expected it to be. There's plenty to look forward to with the progress of Bello, Casas, Duran, Yoshida, Crawford and others who will be here when next season starts and I feel next season may be Bloom's "microscope" season.
If Yoshida teammate gets posted this winter, and comes to Boston, they’re immediate contenders. But, even beside that with Mayer, Anthony, Rafaela, and Yorke coming up in the next two years their window is opening.
Why is it unrealistic for the Boston Red Sox to be in playoff contention every year? Especially with the three Wild Card spots? The Yankees do it. The Dodgers do it. Why can't the team who charges the most for a ticket in the sport accomplish it?
Only one of those guys should be regarded as this point as an "open the window" type player and he's struggled in AA as of late. Especially Yorke does not have that kind of pedigree. If the plan is to hope their best prospects all reach their 90th percentile outcomes in order to contend, it's a bad plan.
Short answer is the Red Sox pitching pipeline is much, much worse than either of those teams and it takes a lot of time to fix that.
I don't think they've focused enough on developing a pitching pipeline if that's the key, but nevertheless the poster I was responding to made a general statement, don't think he was talking about this specific version of the Red Sox.
But there's no other division in which they'd be in first place or in the lead for a wild card slot, and those are what matter come October.
They would have been in a virtual tie for the AL Central coming into today, and are now a whole game back of the Twins. It's a silly exercise because the team's schedule would be different in a different division, but let's stop pretending that they're so bad that they'd be out of contention for anything if they existed outside the AL East right now.
I'm not saying they're out of contention, even after this disaster of a weekend, but that's more of a statement about MLB adopting an NHL-style "everybody in the pool!" approach to playoff qualification than the quality of this team.