Rookie hazing & bullying: Miami guard Incognito indefinitely suspended

[coremiller]

From the typically perceptive Ta-Nehisi Coates:
 

We all believe in the right to defend one's own body. But the ability to kick someone's ass is oft-stated and overrated. Jerry Jones doesn't want to fight DeAngelo Hall. He won't ever need to, because such is his power that he can erect a Wonderland of a stadium, reduce men to toy soldiers, and toss their battered bodies out onto the street when he's done. Pimping ain't easy, but it sure is fun.
 
If you squint hard enough you might dimly perceive the outlines of some phantasm, some illusion. You might see power back there behind the scrum. You might see how a national valorization of violence attaches itself to profit. On the streets of Chicago, violently confronting someone for disrespecting you is evidence of a "culture of pathology." In the NFL it is evidence of handling things "the right way."

 
 

 
 http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2013/11/richie-incognito-and-the-banality-of-supermacho/281203/

 

[Reverend]

Michael Wright has a piece on ESPN on how banning hazing was one of the first things Trestman did as head coach in Chicago.
 

“I’ve been in places where there’s been hazing, and I’ve been in places where there has not been hazing,” Trestman said. “I told the team the first night, when you haze somebody, you take their ability to help you win. Everybody’s here to help you win. We’re not talking about taking a helmet and walking off the field with a helmet. We’re talking about other things. The words you use, the way you act, the things you say, affect people from all different backgrounds and places. We’ve got to understand that the beauty of this game is it draws people from everywhere, from different realities and different perceptions, but that can all be neutralized through respect and using the proper language and proper words in the right place and the right time, in this building, on the field, and when we’re out in the community because we represent the entire city.” 
 

 

“Here, it’s different. We look at rookies differently,” Marshall said. “You have to earn your stripes, earn your place on the team, earn your place in the NFL. But as far as crossing that line -- disrespecting guys, demeaning guys -- that just doesn’t happen here. Actually, coach Trestman did a great job of really going out of his way to make everyone feel comfortable from Day 1. There were some things where we were like, ‘Man, this stuff goes on in every locker room. We would love to continue to do it.’ But Coach just said, ‘Hey, we’re gonna nip that in the bud. I want guys to focus on football, and everyone just focus on their jobs and not Rookie Night or what guys might do to me the next day [in terms of hazing].’” 

Rookie guard Kyle Long appreciates Trestman’s approach, but made it clear that he understands he’s a rookie who hasn’t yet paid his dues. The team’s offensive line will hold a rookie dinner at some point soon, “and I’m sure [fellow rookie] Jordan Mills and I will split the tab eventually,” Long said on “The Carmen & Jurko Show” on ESPN 1000. He and Mills are also often asked to supply dipping tobacco for the veteran offensive linemen. 

Long said Trestman made the no-hazing rule “very clear from the beginning.” 
 

 
"Banning" might be a bit strong, despite the title of the piece, but I figured it was worth posting another NFL view. I report, you drink beer.

 

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

This is the 3rd paragraph of that Murtha article:
 
 
Murtha starts off by saying he's not taking sides, then spends a paragraph telling us that Martin was different because he wouldn't look guys in eye, was standoffish, and refused to play along with the awesome traditions like "Lets make all of the rookies pay for ridiculously lavish meals".  None of these things should be relevant to Murtha's attempt at "clearing up the misperceptions" that have come out about this story.  They are a thinly veiled attempt to justify the treatment of Martin by Incognito.  He was different and refused to do the stuff rookies were supposed to put up with.  He was treated no differently than anyone else was treated, he just couldn't hack it.
 
None of this sheds any light on what actually happened or how Martin actually felt about what Incognito was doing.  But it is illustrative of why players' (and former players') reactions to this story are not particularly insightful.

 
I actually do think that information is pretty relevant to the story.  Whether Martin was specifically targeted in an unusual way by Incognito or whether he was subjected to a standard level of crap and "couldn't hack it" (as you put it) matters quite a bit - not because the latter scenario necessarily excuses the behavior, but in terms of considering what the nature of the bullying dynamic actually was and what repercussions Incognito should reasonably face.

 

[kenneycb]

In the last 24 hours, this thread has turned into one of the very best that I've ever followed on this site -- and I've been a member for over a decade. While part of me still wishes I was an undergrad at Stonehill College for this dialogue -- for in those days, I had the time to sit down and engage in messageboard exchanges as much as my heart desired -- not having the time to post in the last day or so has given me the time to think, reflect, and appreciate solely reading the thoughts and opinions of others. Yesterday morning, I devised a quick summary of what I wanted to say in this thread, but so much has been discussed since then; and this event has proven itself to be much more complicated and multi-layered than first reported. I really don't know where to start. Of course, this NFL story will continue to evolve, but it seems safe to say at this point that it will serve as platform to discuss race, bullying, and NFL culture for the forseeable future. Hopefully for the benefit of the league.
 
Before I get back to work, though, I just wanted to clarify one prior point. As a Dolphin's fan, I'm only interested in one thing -- the truth. I want the head coach of "my" team to a terrific leader of young men. Someone who is intelligent, ethical, and supportive of his players. I want to root for players who are good teammates and relatively good people. I want the Dolphins locker room to consist of a close-knit group of players who support each other. I want their to be a strong veteran leadership among this group who will intervene in the instances of a player being mistreated or bullied. That's the type of team I want to root for.
 
Thus, if it were to be proven that Martin voiced his concerns to Philbin and he ignored them -- I want him gone. If it's proven that Incognito used Martin as his personal whipping boy, bullying him throughout his NFL career, I want him gone, as well. And for the veterans who just sat back and watched? Good riddance. In addition, there's not a player I would support more than Jonathan Martin if he chooses to resume his NFL career.
 
That said, several pages back, some non-Miami fans had Philbin and Turner being fired, possibly in the next couple of weeks, prior to any real facts being presented. Now, clearly this doesn't apply to every contributer in this thread -- but generally, I believe it's a lot easier to run with with the pervailing storyline when you're not vested in the team being discussed. For whatever team you root for, imagine if this situation was happening to your team. For Pats fans, would you quickly join others in calling for Belichick's head after a wrtiter tweets, "so and so told to 'toughen up' [insert player name]"? Or would you think, Hmm, if true, that's not good. But that just doesn't seem to be something BB would do. I'll wait for the whole story to reveal itself.
 
I feel as though that this as been the Miami fans' general position on this board. I can't speak for every Fin fan, but I have no desire to defend Ireland, Philbin, Incognito, or any other player if it truly proven that they have contributed to the mental breakdown of a player. That stated, before I fire a coach or chatise an entire organization, I believe it's important to recognize that 1) This situation is very complex and 2) There are many facts that have yet to be revealed.

I wish to have amorous relations with this post.

 

[OCST]

From the typically perceptive Ta-Nehisi Coates:
 
 
 http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2013/11/richie-incognito-and-the-banality-of-supermacho/281203/

 
Coates is the best columnist working today IMO.

 

[E5 Yaz]

 
I actually do think that information is pretty relevant to the story. 

 
If the guy is telling the truth

 

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

 
If the guy is telling the truth

 
Absolutely.  And we definitely don't know that - as I noted the first time I posted the link to that story, the author goes pretty far back with Incognito.

 

[Shelterdog]

 
Absolutely.  And we definitely don't know that - as I noted the first time I posted the link to that story, the author goes pretty far back with Incognito.

 
There are also a bunch of things that make you question the article: his conclusions are pretty different from the facts he describes.  Incognito is not a racist--but Murth heard him call Martin n*** a number of times.  Nobody excluded Martin in any way--but he never fit in, never opened up, his teammates felt he was standoffish from the beginning and couldn't figure out why he didn't want to buy them a 10k dinner.  Incognito didn't bully Martin--but he gave Martin "a lot of crap" and so did the rest of the team.  

 

[dwainw]

In the last 24 hours, this thread has turned into one of the very best that I've ever followed on this site -- and I've been a member for over a decade. While part of me still wishes I was an undergrad at Stonehill College for this dialogue -- for in those days, I had the time to sit down and engage in messageboard exchanges as much as my heart desired -- not having the time to post in the last day or so has given me the time to think, reflect, and appreciate solely reading the thoughts and opinions of others. Yesterday morning, I devised a quick summary of what I wanted to say in this thread, but so much has been discussed since then; and this event has proven itself to be much more complicated and multi-layered than first reported. I really don't know where to start. Of course, this NFL story will continue to evolve, but it seems safe to say at this point that it will serve as platform to discuss race, bullying, and NFL culture for the forseeable future. Hopefully for the benefit of the league.
 
Before I get back to work, though, I just wanted to clarify one prior point. As a Dolphins' fan, I'm only interested in one thing -- the truth. I want the head coach of "my" team to a terrific leader of young men. Someone who is intelligent, ethical, and supportive of his players. I want to root for players who are good teammates and relatively good people. I want the Dolphins' locker room to consist of a close-knit group of players who support each other. I want there to be a strong veteran leadership among this group who will intervene in the instances of a player being mistreated or bullied. That's the type of team I want to root for.
 
Thus, if it were to be proven that Martin voiced his concerns to Philbin and he ignored them -- I want him gone. If it's proven that Incognito used Martin as his personal whipping boy, bullying him throughout his NFL career, I want him gone, as well. And for the veterans who just sat back and watched? Good riddance. In addition, there's not a player I would support more than Jonathan Martin if he chooses to resume his NFL career.
 
That said, several pages back, some non-Miami fans had Philbin and Turner being fired, possibly in the next couple of weeks, prior to any real facts being presented. Now, clearly this doesn't apply to every contributer in this thread -- but generally, I believe it's a lot easier to run with with the pervailing storyline when you're not vested in the team being discussed. For whatever team you root for, imagine if this situation was happening to your team. For Pats fans, would you quickly join others in calling for Belichick's head after a wrtiter tweets, "so and so told to 'toughen up' [insert player name]"? Or would you think, Hmm, if true, that's not good. But that just doesn't seem to be something BB would do. I'll wait for the whole story to reveal itself.
 
I feel as though that this as been the Miami fans' general position on this board. I can't speak for every Fin fan, but I have no desire to defend Ireland, Philbin, Incognito, or any other player if it is truly proven that they have contributed to the mental breakdown of a player. That stated, before I fire a coach or chatise an entire organization, I believe it's important to recognize that 1) This situation is very complex and 2) There are many facts that have yet to be revealed.
 
Edit: Spelling and grammar

Amen, pdaj, and well-said.  And I'm not just saying that because I'm a Dolphins fan.  Honest.

As for the bolded, I feel like this has been discussed from time to time on the Red Sox board(s), and this sentiment is not entirely shared by everyone (I seem to recall some Manny discussions "going there" every so often when it came to Manny being Manny.  God only knows what was discussed during the Carl Everett days--before my time).  Nor does it necessarily need to.  I happen to whole-heartedly agree with it, but others have said things to the effect that if a player kicks puppies, yells at old ladies, and spends his entire offseason holed up with hookers in a Vegas penthouse, so be it.  If he helps us win, more power to him--he's OUR bastard. 

Point being:  I hope the varied feelings about how much high character OUR guys should/shouldn't possess don't lead people to misguidedly suggest people are blindly defending the awful behavior of their home-team guys, or worse, blaming the victims.  I don't think anyone has done that here, but I do think it's been insinuated from time to time, without regard to the natural feelings of defensiveness that kick in when all hell breaks loose against something people are so passionate about, as pdaj alluded to above. 

This is an incredibly emotional topic that has generated a remarkable discussion, I couldn't be more appreciative of the varying perspectives and heart-felt comments by most of the contributors (despite the hell my team has unleashed upon itself), and I only hope things continue that way.

 

[dwainw]

 
If the guy is telling the truth

Can't/shouldn't we say that about 75% of the information thus far released?  Not trying to be a smartass at all, but I'm finding the never-ending stream of comments coming out from people with wildly varying degrees of credibility, with all of their contradictions and opinions-framed-as-facts utterly ovewhelming.

 

[kenneycb]

 
There are also a bunch of things that make you question the article: his conclusions are pretty different from the facts he describes.  Incognito is not a racist--but Murth heard him call Martin n*** a number of times.  Nobody excluded Martin in any way--but he never fit in, never opened up, his teammates felt he was standoffish from the beginning and couldn't figure out why he didn't want to buy them a 10k dinner.  Incognito didn't bully Martin--but he gave Martin "a lot of crap" and so did the rest of the team.  

The Dolphins players didn't have a problem with him doing this as noted earlier in the thread.  Now that's certainly a whole big can of worms but I have a hard time acting as a moral judge on this particular issue as a white male.

 

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

 
There are also a bunch of things that make you question the article: his conclusions are pretty different from the facts he describes.  Incognito is not a racist--but Murth heard him call Martin n*** a number of times.  Nobody excluded Martin in any way--but he never fit in, never opened up, his teammates felt he was standoffish from the beginning and couldn't figure out why he didn't want to buy them a 10k dinner.  Incognito didn't bully Martin--but he gave Martin "a lot of crap" and so did the rest of the team.  

 
It seems more to me like his conclusions, based on the facts he describes, are simply different than the conclusions you'd like to draw (ie, Incognito is a racist, Martin was excluded and treated differently than others, Martin was bullied).  His conclusions might well be wrong.  But what basis do you have to draw conclusions, given that you (like the rest of us) don't really know anything?

 

[DJnVa]

The Dolphins players didn't have a problem with him doing this as noted earlier in the thread.  

 
Maybe. However these guys don't seem to do too good with self-policing. Because the Dolphins locker room thought it was okay doesn't excuse the behavior.

 

[kenneycb]

 
Maybe. However these guys don't seem to do too good with self-policing. Because the Dolphins locker room thought it was okay doesn't excuse the behavior.

Meh, I'm more willing to believe the opinions of actual African Americans that were there on this particular issue than a bunch of mostly white males on a message board (making a general assumption here but I think I have the demo here down).

 

[DJnVa]

Meh, I'm more willing to believe the opinions of actual African Americans that were there on this particular issue than a bunch of mostly white males on a message board (making a general assumption here but I think I have the demo here down).

 
Those players were still part of the rather shitty "culture" that locker room. And it doesn't matter if they weren't bothered--the object of the ridicule was.

 

[kenneycb]

 
Those players were still part of the rather shitty "culture" that locker room. And it doesn't matter if they weren't bothered--the object of the ridicule was.

Not Murtha.  Unless you think his one training camp tainted him beyond repair.
 
Edit: Schwimmy, Schwammy...Murtha.  I was way off!

 

[Shelterdog]

 
It seems more to me like his conclusions, based on the facts he describes, are simply different than the conclusions you'd like to draw (ie, Incognito is a racist, Martin was excluded and treated differently than others, Martin was bullied).  His conclusions might well be wrong.  But what basis do you have to draw conclusions, given that you (like the rest of us) don't really know anything?

 
Well I've got a keyboard and a SoSH username, so drawing half-assed conclusions based on my reading of the facts in the article is more or less my birthright.  

 

[PC Drunken Friar]

Meh, I'm more willing to believe the opinions of actual African Americans that were there on this particular issue than a bunch of mostly white males on a message board (making a general assumption here but I think I have the demo here down).


Is Warren Sapp African American enough for you?

 

[kenneycb]

Is Warren Sapp African American enough for you?

Okay.  So we have people on both sides of the bill and don't have a definitive answer, just like everything else in this whole situation.  Just pointing out that using the N-word in and of itself doesn't automatically make someone racist.  Context is extremely important.

 

[JohntheBaptist]

Not the dude that wrote the article.  Unless you think his one training camp tainted him beyond repair.

Shelterdog was highlighting inconsistency in Murtha's article, not making the moral judgement you seem to think he was making.  Among many he pointed out, it is kind of silly to declare a guy really isn't a racist, then claim you didn't know him that well and that his preferred method of comedy in a locker room full of African American teammates is to throw the n-word around.  As if their being "OK" with it means he has to say it.   The point isn't whether he is or isn't racist, it's that Murtha wouldn't really have any way of knowing that, which he demonstrated elsewhere in the article.  It also doesn't really matter because the use of the word to someone for whom it is repugnant and offensive doesn't become less repugnant or offensive when you're assured the guy "really isn't racist, I swear!"
 
Almost as if... maybe this Murtha guy isn't that much of an authority on the situation after all.

 

[DJnVa]

Not Murtha.  Unless you think his one training camp tainted him beyond repair.
 
Edit: Schwimmy, Schwammy...Murtha.  I was way off!

 
Well, Murtha was with the Dolphins for more than one training camp. He signed in 2009 and was cut in 2012.
 
He only had one training camp after Martin was drafted.

 

[Hagios]

 
Those players were still part of the rather shitty "culture" that locker room. And it doesn't matter if they weren't bothered--the object of the ridicule was.

 
I don't buy it. Too sanctimonious. It's not as simple as "anyone who is white that uses the n-word is a racist, and there are no extenuating circumstances".
 
1. Lots of black people use the n-word amongst themselves. (duh).
2. Lots of white people use the n-word as a racial slur. (duh).
3. Lots of white people use the n-word as a way of "acting black". (duh).
 
Now, I think the "acting black" crowd has a lot of white privilege going on, and thus they aren't free of racism. But that group is clearly different than the "racist redneck" category. Moreover, the NFL is one of the few places where white privilege (mostly) doesn't exist. It is a league in which most of the players are black and black culture is dominant. So if a white player in the NFL is using the word and not getting called out by their teammates, then I'm not going to automatically assume that they are racist because they used the n-word.

 

[kenneycb]

Well I also assumed Murtha wasn't white.  So what the fuck do I know.  Great showing on my end.

 

[DJnVa]

 
I don't buy it. Too sanctimonious. It's not as simple as "anyone who is white that uses the n-word is a racist, and there are no extenuating circumstances".
 
1. Lots of black people use the n-word amongst themselves. (duh).
2. Lots of white people use the n-word as a racial slur. (duh).
3. Lots of white people use the n-word as a way of "acting black". (duh).
 
Now, I think the "acting black" crowd has a lot of white privilege going on, and thus they aren't free of racism. But that group is clearly different than the "racist redneck" category. Moreover, the NFL is one of the few places where white privilege (mostly) doesn't exist. It is a league in which most of the players are black and black culture is dominant. So if a white player in the NFL is using the word and not getting called out by their teammates, then I'm not going to automatically assume that they are racist because they used the n-word.

 
It doesn't matter if RI is racist.
 
What matters is that he was using that term to harm Martin. It doesn't matter if other black teammates didn't care. In this specific case, it only matters that Martin cares.
 
If me and some male coworkers call out to the girl in accounting with the short skirt and generally act like assholes toward her, it doesn't matter if my buddies give me a high five.

 

[kenneycb]

Shelterdog was highlighting inconsistency in Murtha's article, not making the moral judgement you seem to think he was making.  Among many he pointed out, it is kind of silly to declare a guy really isn't a racist, then claim you didn't know him that well and that his preferred method of comedy in a locker room full of African American teammates is to throw the n-word around.  As if their being "OK" with it means he has to say it.   The point isn't whether he is or isn't racist, it's that Murtha wouldn't really have any way of knowing that, which he demonstrated elsewhere in the article.  It also doesn't really matter because the use of the word to someone for whom it is repugnant and offensive doesn't become less repugnant or offensive when you're assured the guy "really isn't racist, I swear!"
 
Almost as if... maybe this Murtha guy isn't that much of an authority on the situation after all.

He went to college with Incognito and considers him a friend but doesn't talk to him regularly.  That's a lot different than the bolded.

 

[Hagios]

 
It doesn't matter if RI is racist.
 
What matters is that he was using that term to harm Martin. It doesn't matter if other black teammates didn't care. In this specific case, it only matters that Martin cares.
 
If me and some male coworkers call out to the girl in accounting with the short skirt and generally act like assholes toward her, it doesn't matter if my buddies give me a high five.

 
Your analogy is not actually analogous to the situation. It obscures rather than enlightens.
 
The point of the exercise is to find out if the intent and weight of the use of the n-word. You aren't seeing much nuance or grey area here.

 

[JohntheBaptist]

 
I don't buy it. Too sanctimonious. It's not as simple as "anyone who is white that uses the n-word is a racist, and there are no extenuating circumstances".
 
1. Lots of black people use the n-word amongst themselves. (duh).
2. Lots of white people use the n-word as a racial slur. (duh).
3. Lots of white people use the n-word as a way of "acting black". (duh).
 
Now, I think the "acting black" crowd has a lot of white privilege going on, and thus they aren't free of racism. But that group is clearly different than the "racist redneck" category. Moreover, the NFL is one of the few places where white privilege (mostly) doesn't exist. It is a league in which most of the players are black and black culture is dominant. So if a white player in the NFL is using the word and not getting called out by their teammates, then I'm not going to automatically assume that they are racist because they used the n-word.

 
If you're offended by it's use from your white teammates, and no one else seems to give a shit--
 
A) how, in this "culture" that's been described to us, do you address that, exactly?
B) what the fuck is the difference if the idiot saying it actually hates your race or not?  Proud levels of ignorance, that's not offensive?

 

[Statman]

Is Warren Sapp African American enough for you?

 
The same Warren Sapp that admitted that he "tortured" some of his own teammates while on the Bucs? 
 
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/24196226/keyshawn-johnson-warren-sapp-bullied-a-buccaneers-player

 

[Montana Fan]

 
What matters is that he was using that term to harm Martin. It doesn't matter if other black teammates didn't care. In this specific case, it only matters that Martin cares.

 
I know I'm stereotyping but Martin and his family don't seem to be the type of people that use that word on a regular basis or at all.  It would seem that Martin was raised in the say "country club environment" where education and civility is valued and played professional sports in the gutter.  He wasn't ready for the gutter environment he encountered while his teammates dwell there full time.  The gutter is so ingrained in them that his teammates and most NFL'ers see nothing wrong with how Martin was treated and think he's the problem (Big Weirdo).  They see it as Richie Incognito was a "great guy" who was just mentoring Martin.  In this case mentoring him meant changing him into something that he was raised not to be.  A thug.  So he walked away and I agree that it is likely he never comes back.  He doesn't need or want it.
 
PS - This quote by Shelterdog is one of the few things that has made me smile in this thread.  This should be the company motto.
 

 
Well I've got a keyboard and a SoSH username, so drawing half-assed conclusions based on my reading of the facts in the article is more or less my birthright.

 

[Statman]

Former player Ryan Riddle, who also happens to be bi-racial and a self-admitted "soft spoken, quiet and at times, socially awkward" type of guy with his take on the issue. 
 
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1840958-an-insiders-account-of-bullying-hazing-and-overall-culture-of-the-nfl

 

[Reverend]

The Race Issue really seems to be obscuring the People Being Shitty to One Another Issue and Encouraging a Culture of Shittiness.
 
Racism is a subset of people being shitty to one another.

 

[snowmanny]

The Race Issue really seems to be obscuring the People Being Shitty to One Another Issue and Encouraging a Culture of Shittiness.

Racism is a subset of people being shitty to one another.

Yes, and I am tired of being informed as to the usual and customary nature of life in a football locker room, which I supposedly need to know before passing judgment on behavior that would be instantaneously fireable in any other workplace. It seems to me that perhaps football needs more information on what is acceptable interpersonal behavior in 2013. It's totally unsurprising that it is a family like Martin and his parents who push this discussion since they very likely have a clearer perspective on what is appropriate workplace behavior than the average person on an NFL team (who may be just happy to be there).

 

[SMU_Sox]

Why should jock culture get an exception for what it means to be a decent human being? Because they are good ol' boys? Why the hell should they be held to another standard. This whole things reminds me of the current sexual harassment and abuse going on in the military right now. It's wrong. It needs to stop.

 

[Tim Naehrings Girl]

http://www.local10.com/sports/aventura-police-dolphins-richie-incognito-harassed-golf-volunteer/-/1717082/22858256/-/11fm0jpz/-/index.html
 
 
Now a local woman is saying that Incognito harrassed her at a Dolphins golf event last year.  I have a strong feeling that it is going to get much worse for Richie Incognito before it gets better.  

 

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

Former player Ryan Riddle, who also happens to be bi-racial and a self-admitted "soft spoken, quiet and at times, socially awkward" type of guy with his take on the issue. 
 
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1840958-an-insiders-account-of-bullying-hazing-and-overall-culture-of-the-nfl

I thought that was a very thoughtful and insightful take on hazing and some common locker room dynamics in the NFL.
 

Yes, and I am tired of being informed as to the usual and customary nature of life in a football locker room, which I supposedly need to know before passing judgment on behavior that would be instantaneously fireable in any other workplace. It seems to me that perhaps football needs more information on what is acceptable interpersonal behavior in 2013. It's totally unsurprising that it is a family like Martin and his parents who push this discussion since they very likely have a clearer perspective on what is appropriate workplace behavior than the average person on an NFL team (who may be just happy to be there).

Hopefully this episode will lead to more scrutiny of how interpersonal dynamics work and are policed behind the scenes in the NFL. But do you really expect these guys to conform to the standards of the HR office down the hall from you? Does it not seem hypocritical for the viewing public to go celebrating the brutalizing aspects of the game on Sunday - gleefully watching guys pound each other, talking about "warriors battling in the trenches," calling out guys for shying away from contact on plays - and then moralizing during the week about how the players really should conform to "appropriate workplace behavior" when they're not on the field?

To reiterate, hopefully this whole episode leads to some positive changes that reduce the incidence of real and hurtful bullying and abuse. But I'm not going to expect these guys to act like accountants off the field and I don't think, as an NFL fan who loves an inherently violent game, that I have much right to call them out for not doing so.

 

[rymflaherty]

When did you work there, rym?  I worked in group homes in the Chicago area in the 90's (serving mostly inner-city African American kids) as a rural Massachusetts/Iowa-boy, and then as a foster care case manager on the south and west side, and later as a teacher at an alternative school in inner-city Minneapolis, and I had much the same experience. 
 
I taught high school sociology where we had a few discussions about racism and the use of the N-word in the black community. 
It was pretty uncomfortable to bring up at first, but the kids were generally interested in discussing it and the biggest takeaway for me was that it was a very empowering thing for people in the black community to be able to freely use this word knowing full well that white people 1) can't get away with it in just about any situation and 2) are damn uncomfortable even talking about it.

 
My student teaching was done in 2009.
Prior to that, while living in Connecticut I was working as a Youth Counselor at a residential facility. It wound up a good thing I had that job, because without that experience, I don't think I would have stood a chance with those high school classes. Especially since I had a cooperating teacher that just gave me all responsibilities and wouldn't even been there with me.
In those environments I explained, everyday wasn't great, but overall they were great experiences and situations where I grew and learned a lot myself. And in those experiences I really think I saw an awful lot of "Incognito's", many "Martin's" (maybe that even being myself at the start).
 
As a Dolphins fan what I hope for is more info.
Hopefully that happens, if not I do like the reasonable discourse this incident has facilitated.  It is not a great situation for anyone involved, but realistically it was not a tragedy (thankfully), and hopefully through this discourse there can be some changes in attitude, or at the very least increased awareness to avoid there being a similar situation, or God forbid it escalating as something worse.
(And selfishly, I wouldn't mind the Ireland thing to be true...It's sickening, but that;s the point. He needs to be gone from a performance standpoint, so I'll take whatever gets him out at this point)

 

[PBDWake]

But do you really expect these guys to conform to the standards of the HR office down the hall from you?

Yes. Or something close enough anyways.

I recognize that environment breeds behavior. We're probably never going to get to a place where this sort of thing is stamped out altogether. The game serves two different masters. The ones on Sunday and the one that follows Monday through Saturday. But we would never accept similar rationalizations from other environments and situations. "What did you expect? He's from the projects. Of course he robbed that store." "What did you expect from him? Did you see what she was wearing?". The second we stop trying to be better and start accepting a bad environment as it is, when we stop trying to improve, the battle for normalcy is already lost. So yes, I expect men to behave like adults. Many players across the league seem to have no problem doing so. Everyone should be expected to follow suit. And when they don't, our reaction should be disappointment, not resignation.

 

[E5 Yaz]

Racism is a subset of people being shitty to one another.

 
So sez the peddler of diseased blankets

 

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

Yes. Or something close enough anyways.

I recognize that environment breeds behavior. We're probably never going to get to a place where this sort of thing is stamped out altogether. The game serves two different masters. The ones on Sunday and the one that follows Monday through Saturday. But we would never accept similar rationalizations from other environments and situations. "What did you expect? He's from the projects. Of course he robbed that store." "What did you expect from him? Did you see what she was wearing?". The second we stop trying to be better and start accepting a bad environment as it is, when we stop trying to improve, the battle for normalcy is already lost. So yes, I expect men to behave like adults. Many players across the league seem to have no problem doing so. Everyone should be expected to follow suit. And when they don't, our reaction should be disappointment, not resignation.

Please stop with the ridiculous straw men parallels to rape victims. Let's talk about actual expectations for NFL players when they're not on the field. Is it reasonable to expect players to never, ever get in the face of another guy who wasn't putting in the effort? Should they never, ever, ever under any circumstances lay even a light hand on another guy off the field, after spending their entire time on the field brutalizing each other? Should they be careful to avoid talk at the workplace on the subject of sexual relations? Should they be extremely hesitant about making statements bearing on the subject of race? I'm just trying to figure out what you guys actually mean when you say that they should conform to "acceptable workplace standards" as your local HR office defines them.

 

[Hagios]

Yes, and I am tired of being informed as to the usual and customary nature of life in a football locker room, which I supposedly need to know before passing judgment on behavior that would be instantaneously fireable in any other workplace. It seems to me that perhaps football needs more information on what is acceptable interpersonal behavior in 2013. It's totally unsurprising that it is a family like Martin and his parents who push this discussion since they very likely have a clearer perspective on what is appropriate workplace behavior than the average person on an NFL team (who may be just happy to be there).

 
I think you should understand something before you sit in judgment of it. People would get fired for making rookies wear dresses at my white collar IT job, but Sons of Sam Horn has approved of this type of rookie hazing in the MLB. Maybe there was a negative comment somewhere in the thread, but I don't recall it. It certainly wasn't a common opinion even if it did exist. Even if they get rid of all rookie hazing - which I support - the culture of a pro sports locker room will never be like the culture of the IT department at my company. Moreover, the culture of most IT departments is going to be largely white (or asian), but the culture of the NFL is going to be black. So a lot of the alleged non-racists on this thread are really trying to impose white cultural norms on a majority black workforce.

 

[Super Nomario]

Long, but thoughtful and even-handed analysis of the Martin situation by Ryan Riddle. He relates Martin's situation to his own personal situation as a quiet player coming out of Cal:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1840958-an-insiders-account-of-bullying-hazing-and-overall-culture-of-the-nfl
 
TL;DR:

• Riddle feels hazing rituals helped him integrate into the Oakland locker room as a rookie
• Later, as a member of the Mangini Jets, he felt he fit very poorly into the team culture. He describes a specific situation where he was wearing a lousy suit and afraid that his teammates would pick him on him (as they had a habit of doing to their poorly-dressed teammates)
• He thinks Incognito and Martin's respective personalities contribute to their relative successes (and lack thereof) on the football field

I don't necessarily agree with everything, but it's an interesting take from someone who has first-hand knowledge of NFL locker-room dynamics and no horse in this race.

 

[EvilEmpire]

I thought that was a very thoughtful and insightful take on hazing and some common locker room dynamics in the NFL. Hopefully this episode will lead to more scrutiny of how interpersonal dynamics work and are policed behind the scenes in the NFL.

I think it will, but not so much in a productive way. For certain positions at least, I think teams will be less likely to take a chance on quiet, introspective kids from upper middle class backgrounds. I know that sounds ridiculous, but It is easier to tear down and build back up kids who have nothing to go back to, who understand they need to fit into the team's (substitute the word gang if you want) culture, and who will bust their ass to earn the respect of their peers, adulation from fans, and of course, lots of money.

I think players that fit the shitty culture are somewhat more likely to perform better on the field. Performing better on the field = more money for all involved.

I think teams can impact the more egregious bits of hazing, but the culture is too valuable to change beyond the superficial. Even without the hazing, I think Martin would have struggled with the culture. It's a shame.

Anyway, some good posting in this thread, from you and others. Steiny's take makes sense to me too. This is a tough problem for teams to solve on their own. Too much money at stake. They'll have to be forced.

 

[Monbo Jumbo]

The Race Issue really seems to be obscuring the People Being Shitty to One Another Issue and Encouraging a Culture of Shittiness.
 
Racism is a subset of people being shitty to one another.

 
and scene.
 
I think there are certain situations where a lot of males are placed close together combined with high pressure - and the result is a natural devolution to a "Lord of the Flies" environment.
 
The trading pits were a similar environment in some respects. post flashback here. 

 

[soxfan121]

I think it will, but not so much in a productive way. For certain positions at least, I think teams will be less likely to take a chance on quiet, introspective kids from upper middle class backgrounds. I know that sounds ridiculous, but It is easier to tear down and build back up kids who have nothing to go back to, who understand they need to fit into the team's (substitute the word gang if you want) culture, and who will bust their ass to earn the respect of their peers, adulation from fans, and of course, lots of money.

 
I find this fascinating, given your background. And I apologize for putting you on the spot but you are one of the few I know can talk about the culture of creating real "warriors", so I would ask how the military deals with this process of "tear[ing] down and build[ing] up", as well as creating a team and (overused, I know) "band of brothers". 
 
Also, I'm going to repost Rev's link of the John Stoltenberg piece on "How Men Have (A) Sex", which is a very interesting read in the context of this discussion. 

 

[soxfan121]

PS - This quote by Shelterdog is one of the few things that has made me smile in this thread.  This should be the company motto.

 
Yup. I liked it so much, I added it to my sig line. Well said, Shelterdog.

 

[Statman]

 For certain positions at least, I think teams will be less likely to take a chance on quiet, introspective kids from upper middle class backgrounds. I know that sounds ridiculous, but It is easier to tear down and build back up kids who have nothing to go back to, who understand they need to fit into the team's (substitute the word gang if you want) culture, and who will bust their ass to earn the respect of their peers, adulation from fans, and of course, lots of money.
 

 
Couldn't we easily change this quote so it reads:
 
For certain white-collar management positions at least, I think Fortune 500 companies teams will be less likely to take a chance on poor and black quiet, introspective kids from underprivileged upper middle class backgrounds. I know that sounds ridiculous, but It is easier to hire employees who look and talk like you tear down and build back up kids who have grown up in suburban America nothing to go back to, who understand they need to fit into the company's team's (substitute the word White Majority gang if you want) culture, and who will bust their ass to earn the respect of their peers, adulation from fans, and of course, lots of money.

 

[singaporesoxfan]

But do you really expect these guys to conform to the standards of the HR office down the hall from you?

 
I think if the military, comprising people who are actual rather than metaphorical warriors, sees fit to issue orders banning hazing, I'm fine with getting the NFL to at least issue guidelines on what lines should not be crossed.
 
I do agree that NFL locker rooms are not your standard work environment. But if they allow this behavior and then someone like Jonathan Martin comes and sues them, they should be prepared to find out that the "our workplace is special" defense is unlikely to hold up in court.

 

[EvilEmpire]

I find this fascinating, given your background. And I apologize for putting you on the spot but you are one of the few I know can talk about the culture of creating real "warriors", so I would ask how the military deals with this process of "tear[ing] down and build[ing] up", as well as creating a team and (overused, I know) "band of brothers". 

GF09 and MB's Hidden Ball can probably provide better answers because I think the Marines do it better. Yeah, I said it. But I'll share an Army perspective.

They way we try try to do it is pretty simple: try to make training team focused, lots of shared discomfort/aches and pains, stress, and lots of positive reinforcement when tough milestones are reached. It starts at basic training, but continues at the unit level.

And sometimes there is still a darker side to it. Particularly in combat arms units, and I'd say especially in light infantry. Hardnosed, tough soldiers are especially valued, and sometimes down at the squad level, guys like that are used to try and make their weaker links stronger. Extra physical training, peer pressure, hazing, whatever you want to call it. Not really the 'code red' people are familiar with, but an immense amount of physical and mental pressure to conform. I think sometimes the junior officers and senior NCOs recognize it, and try to keep it from getting out of hand, but tolerate it. Especially in a deployed combat environment where weak links really can get people killed.

In a stressful environment, with a lot of these actions being undertaken by relatively young people, miscalculations can happen. Also just plain old wanton cruelty too. Not everything that happens in such an environment is well-intentioned and purposeful. Sometimes it is just evil. We gave our share of bad people too. But it can be hard to recognize the difference. Particularly from outsiders, but sometimes for insiders too. Too often senior leaders don't try to draw back the curtain until a suicide or murder happens. But they've been around too long to not know how and why it happens. But again, it can also make units tighter, more successful, and save lives.

I can understand why some of it happens, not like like it, but still sympathize with it a bit too. Of course I sympathize more with young soldiers being put into a position to kill people and be killed themselves, than I do professional football players. But I recognize some similarities.

Edit: I should add this is purely my own perspective, and I know others have probably had different experiences. I'm not claiming any universal truths or anything. I've been deployed a fair amount and been in light units around young infantrymen, but others' experiences could certainly be different.

 

[EvilEmpire]

Couldn't we easily change this quote so it reads:
 
For certain white-collar management positions at least, I think Fortune 500 companies teams will be less likely to take a chance on poor and black quiet, introspective kids from underprivileged upper middle class backgrounds. I know that sounds ridiculous, but It is easier to hire employees who look and talk like you tear down and build back up kids who have grown up in suburban America nothing to go back to, who understand they need to fit into the company's team's (substitute the word White Majority gang if you want) culture, and who will bust their ass to earn the respect of their peers, adulation from fans, and of course, lots of money.

Don't they?

 

[Statman]

Don't they?

 
They certainly do so I don't see why it's acceptable for corporate America to look for individuals of a certain background and mindset for a position, but if a NFL team does it, then that is somehow considered to be promoting a "shitty culture."