I mean, hey, the guy needs money. And the burden for working in the public eye for one of the most visible businesses in the region is obviously no different than that for civil or criminal liability.
Remy returning to the booth
- Thread starter Corsi
- Start date
Maybe I'm naive, but I find the idea that Jerry Remy's life should from here on out be one of misery and reclusion because his son is a murderer to be a strange one. Blindly assuming he was a bad father seems pretty extreme to me, and beyond that possibility I'm not sure how justifiable it is to condemn him. Unless his return is an epic train wreck out of the gate, I can't imagine thinking he has some moral obligation to stay out of the booth. The situation is a terrible tragedy, I just have a hard time putting blood on anyone else's hands but Jared.
Is Eck better? Sure, and so were some of the other guests. That said, I don't always mind the Remy/Orsillo goofiness and there is almost certainly a large contingent of fans for whom it's a downright draw. If he lasts through the first couple weeks, this is going to feel completely normal by May.
Is Eck better? Sure, and so were some of the other guests. That said, I don't always mind the Remy/Orsillo goofiness and there is almost certainly a large contingent of fans for whom it's a downright draw. If he lasts through the first couple weeks, this is going to feel completely normal by May.
People are really just going to paper over the Remys begging this girl not to press charges?
Sure seems like the Remys are pretty terrible people.
I enjoy things more when they feature less terrible people.
Sure seems like the Remys are pretty terrible people.
I enjoy things more when they feature less terrible people.
Yes it does. It doesn't make it easier but it does. Unless JERRY and his wife are charged with a crime civil or criminal, why shouldn't he be allowed to work? I would assume NESN and the Red Sox have done their due diligence as this has moved forward.Myt1 said:
mauidano said:
I almost cannot believe how badly that went over your head.
Because people are fired, literally every second of every day, for things that have nothing to do with whether they are charged with a crime?
But what due diligence are you assuming happened here?
If Jared was out on his own at 21 and did this without having been supported and protected by his influential and wealthy family well into adulthood, then maybe Jerry could wash his hands. But we all know that isn't the case and anyone who doesn't think the whole family shares in the blame here is significantly diminished in my estimation. Personally I would rather not see him in the booth anymore.
I feel like the choice of Remy returning or not (leaving aside everything else going on - which I realize is far more important - but just to address this part of the issue) would be different if not for Eck's desire not to travel on the road. I'm not sure how set in stone that is - if he'd be willing to for a full-time announcing job, or if he just doesn't want to do it - but having a mix-and-match announcing scenario again isn't really all that desirable. Sure, if Eck would take it on full-time that would be one thing, but if not, I'm not sure the alternatives to Remy are all that ideal.
But, that may just be me.
But, that may just be me.
Personally, I didn't see him coming back. Being a clown is part of his schtick, and I don't see how he can be a clown any more, with that dark cloud hanging over his head. I'm not saying he should be a zombie for the rest of his life, but I am saying that it's going to be awfully hard for me to find him funny anymore.
Is he "bad people"? I don't know. But that whole situation is just too horrible for me to not associate it with Remy as he's doing the broadcast.
Is he "bad people"? I don't know. But that whole situation is just too horrible for me to not associate it with Remy as he's doing the broadcast.
This is such a non-story. What is he supposed to do, retire out of shame and hide from the public eye for the rest of his life? His son is a grown man for god's sake.
"but I am saying that it's going to be awfully hard for me to find him funny anymore."
No it won't. I know it sounds good to say that but you will completely forget about this by June as will everyone else. And I say all this as someone who is far from the biggest Remy fan around these parts.
"but I am saying that it's going to be awfully hard for me to find him funny anymore."
No it won't. I know it sounds good to say that but you will completely forget about this by June as will everyone else. And I say all this as someone who is far from the biggest Remy fan around these parts.
After Michael Richards went on that racist rant at the comedy club, I told myself I'd never be able to view Seinfeld the same way again. And sure, for the first month or so, it was hard to laugh when he came sliding into Jerry's apartment. But as time has gone on, the memory of that rant fades, rightly or wrongly.
I suspect the same will happen with Jerry. The first few weeks could be bumpy as he gets his legs under him, but once he does, it'll be like nothing happened.
I suspect the same will happen with Jerry. The first few weeks could be bumpy as he gets his legs under him, but once he does, it'll be like nothing happened.
Myt1 said:
If you find it impossible to believe that Phoebe Remy acted alone--or even that she acted against the specific wishes of her husband--in asking Martel not to cooperate, then I'd say your imagination is a poor, stunted thing. Of course I have no idea whether that's how it really went down. But neither do you, unless you're privy to information the rest of us are not.
This is the stuff that really gets my hackles up.
I am the father of a young adult son who is, thank God, about as unlike what we know of Jared Remy as it's possible to be. He's a gentle, civilized, responsible, thoughtful human being. I could no more imagine him beating a woman to death than I can imagine him sprouting wings and flying.
This has little to do with me. Sure, I did my best to instill all these qualities in him, but I also tried to instill in him a love of baseball (fail) and an interest in literature (extreme fail). The truth is that I won the lottery. You can be the best parent you want to be, and shit can still go wrong. I know of examples among my friends--nothing that went anywhere near as terribly wrong as Jared Remy, granted, but still kids who are going to have trouble supporting themselves or staying out of trouble. These parents are good people and I know firsthand that they did a good job. They lost the lottery.
It's certainly true that bad parenting can lead to bad people. But so can good parenting. Maybe Jerry Remy is a shitty father, or maybe he just lost the lottery. I don't know. What I do know is that unless he is no kind of human being at all, the price he is paying right now is unimaginable, and more than sufficient punishment for his sins.
I agree with your premise, but I'm finding it hard to believe that Pheobe a.) intervened without her husband's knowledge or approval in such a serious matter, or b.) if she did, and Jerry disagreed and later found out about it, he wouldn't have gone back and made this girl file the order. If my wife acted in such a manner, and I found out about it after the fact, that would be my course of action.
He's 61. And as he said, "this is what [he] does." Maybe it wont work. Somehow Dustin Pedroia keeps functioning despite the fact that his brother is a child molester. Out of curiosity, and in line with what Savin said about his kids, I wonder how many of the "he's a bad parent, too" folks have kids. Because they certainly lack any understanding of how it can all go wrong despite a parent's best efforts.
As for his (or his wife's) culpability due to the restraining order involvement. I can't imagine that someone who made the remarks he made yesterday doesn't regret that involvement, whatever extent he was involved himself. He's involved -- to what extent I suppoose there is disagreemet -- in a hellish situation. He seemed to acknowledge that his hell is a distant third to the Martell's and to the granddaughter. He also seemed to understand that people want to blame him to varying degrees, and he wasn;t critical of that.
What more do people want from the guy? He's not Craig MacTavish. He can't just ply his trade in Houston, or someplace where they dont pay attention. Just go away, because it reminds you of some really bad shit? I'm sure if enough people feel that way, he will. Hell, I might feel that way. But I wont know til he's on the air.
Most everybody who has ever killed anyone has a mother and a father. Unless those parents subsequently do something really outlandish and in poor taste, I think being critical of how they choose to *try* and live out the rest of their lives is itself in pretty poor taste.
As for his (or his wife's) culpability due to the restraining order involvement. I can't imagine that someone who made the remarks he made yesterday doesn't regret that involvement, whatever extent he was involved himself. He's involved -- to what extent I suppoose there is disagreemet -- in a hellish situation. He seemed to acknowledge that his hell is a distant third to the Martell's and to the granddaughter. He also seemed to understand that people want to blame him to varying degrees, and he wasn;t critical of that.
What more do people want from the guy? He's not Craig MacTavish. He can't just ply his trade in Houston, or someplace where they dont pay attention. Just go away, because it reminds you of some really bad shit? I'm sure if enough people feel that way, he will. Hell, I might feel that way. But I wont know til he's on the air.
Most everybody who has ever killed anyone has a mother and a father. Unless those parents subsequently do something really outlandish and in poor taste, I think being critical of how they choose to *try* and live out the rest of their lives is itself in pretty poor taste.
Remy himself states that Jared had issues from a very young age and yet the Remy family allegedly talked the victim out "ruining his life" by seeking legal protection from him despite the fact that he had just been released from jail for a domestic incident right before the victim was killed. Is Remy a bad parent? I don't know, but it is noteworthy that all of Remy's three kids have a rap sheet. And yes, I am a parent of two young men.joe dokes said:
Savin Hillbilly said:
I agree.
Most parents have some degree of influence over what happens to their kids; generally, if you pay attention to the kids (and read to them), they often turn out well adjusted. On the other hand, even very well adjusted and "well raised" kids can go nutty when exposed to maladjusted peers, drugs, or any kind of subculture for which they're not suited. And on yet another notes, sometimes (though more rarely) rotten parents can produce children who grow up into very decent human beings - usually with some kind of positive input through well adjusted peers or some kind of subculture for which they're very well suited. (By subculture I mean anything that gives their life purpose and structure.)
All of the above assumes there's no organic problem with the child's brain, btw. Or there's no traumatizing events in the child's life (for which the parents themselves are not responsible).
The final take away point is that while Remy may have had a hand in causing Jared's childhood problems, or even mitigating Jared's childhood problems (we don't know which), at some point Jared had the ability to move further and further from the family influence. By the time he ultimately killed, he was a full fledged adult.
Whether one wants to assign moral responsibility to Jared as a fully autonomous being or whether one might consider other factors (drug/steroid use, history of violence between the parties, lingering childhood trauma, diminished capacity for self restraint due to whatever), it's pretty farcical to think that in the absence of new facts, Remy, or worse, "the Remy family" is somehow the responsible party, or bears any significant amount moral blame.
To flip that (patently stupid concept), where was Jen's family - if they were so convinced that Jared was an actual immediate threat, why didn't a few people go over to help her move out? Why didn't they have Jen come stay with family or friends for a week or so? Does it make Jen's family morally blameworthy that they failed to intercede when their daughter and grandchild was faced with such *obvious* danger? Are these weak backboned people individuals you want to get custody of their grandchild? They couldn't even raise a daughter who was self confident enough to walk away from an abuser. . . So, in case you missed it, let me state overtly that I think this entire paragraph, and the line of thinking it represents is absurd - or at least as absurd as trying to blame Remy for this. I just offer it to illustrate the absurdity of casting any significant moral blame upon the parents of the parties. We're not dealing with 8 year olds here.
**
And on another note someone brought up, the trial would not happen until October, at the earliest.
Oh, I can imagine it. Given Remy's history of beating women and the fact that his father got him a cushy job that he got fired from for selling steroids, I just find it incredibly unlikely. But if you want to slip into solipsism, knock yourself out.Savin Hillbilly said:
You're the one who is feigning disbelief that anyone might find the parents of the murderer who knew that their son liked to beat up women some degree of culpable for talking the woman out of cooperating with the authorities and then failing to provide the protection they promised.
I mean, how gauche, right?
Kids aren't a result of a random number generator. You're writing like Chuck Klosterman when he says that the chance if anything happening is 50-50, it either does or doesn't.
I could give a shit about your hackles. One parent and likely both acted to put the mother of their grandchild in danger by intervening to protect their abuser of a son. Maybe that's an understandable reaction in their part, but it certainly doesn't excuse it or absolve them of any level of culpability.
I mean, you're all about assigning some level if blame to a criminal justice system of which your ignorance is so complete that you literally don't know what you don't know, but we have to completely keep our minds suspended about the people who raised the murderer and talked his victim out if cooperating with the system? Are you serious?
While the perspectives on both sides of the issue surrounding Jerry Remy's responsibility for Jared are interesting, they are, to a great extent, irrelevant.
Corsi gets closest to the core issue here, which is whether Remy will be able to function as an effective broadcaster with the shadow of this monstrous act looming over him. The reality is that if ratings go down because Remy is in the booth, the decision to remain as a broadcaster will not be his to make. And if the heat behind some of the comments here is indicative of the way the general public feels, he may be eased out of the booth sooner rather than later.
Corsi gets closest to the core issue here, which is whether Remy will be able to function as an effective broadcaster with the shadow of this monstrous act looming over him. The reality is that if ratings go down because Remy is in the booth, the decision to remain as a broadcaster will not be his to make. And if the heat behind some of the comments here is indicative of the way the general public feels, he may be eased out of the booth sooner rather than later.
I'm more surprised NESN didn't have the balls to tell him no. I mean, when I went to Boston for the WS Parade, and saw Remy's restaurant, this case was the first thing that came to mind. And the Sox just had a great season and people should be talking about them defending the title, not the guy in the booth.
There's a million and one jobs Jerry Remy can do to earn a living. And there are a lot of guys better at doing color. I often listen to road broadcasts anyway.
There's a million and one jobs Jerry Remy can do to earn a living. And there are a lot of guys better at doing color. I often listen to road broadcasts anyway.
Unless you think that Remy and Martel had similar levels of agency in this situation, your comparison utterly fails. And I think you have too much experience with this subject to think that.Rovin Romine said:
Exactly. The strawman that anyone is suggesting that we put the mark of Cain on him and send him to Nod is one if the stupidest things I've read on the main board and it's getting repeated ad nauseum.Infield Infidel said:
I've grown tired of Jerry Remy and his act. I think that he's been there for so long that he sounds bored, uninterested and for a while didn't care much except shilling the Rem-Dawg experience. I think that the Sox need new blood in the booth every five or so years and I think that Eckersley has been fantastic -- he already has a better rapport with Orsillo than Remy ever had.
BUT I don't want his career to end like this. I read his statement and heard him on "Dennis and Callahan" this morning and it sounds as if he's living a daily nightmare. I don't know what he should do, however I don't think that he's going to make it through the entire slate of games. I truly feel bad for the guy and like I said, I think that he's just going to wake up one morning and decide that he can't put on a smile for three hours every night*. I think that NESN executives will be listening very closely because they don't want a guy talking about their product who has his head somewhere else. It wouldn't be shocking if Remy is quietly bought out of his contract by June or July and then we have a rotating color man slot for the rest of the summer and they begin looking for Remy's replacement in the fall.
* The one thing that I think is underreported is what will happen to the rest of Remy's empire once he leaves TV. Will his restaurants go under? I assume the other crap will, but the restaurants are a big deal, I think, though I don't know how much of his actually money is tied up in them.
BUT I don't want his career to end like this. I read his statement and heard him on "Dennis and Callahan" this morning and it sounds as if he's living a daily nightmare. I don't know what he should do, however I don't think that he's going to make it through the entire slate of games. I truly feel bad for the guy and like I said, I think that he's just going to wake up one morning and decide that he can't put on a smile for three hours every night*. I think that NESN executives will be listening very closely because they don't want a guy talking about their product who has his head somewhere else. It wouldn't be shocking if Remy is quietly bought out of his contract by June or July and then we have a rotating color man slot for the rest of the summer and they begin looking for Remy's replacement in the fall.
* The one thing that I think is underreported is what will happen to the rest of Remy's empire once he leaves TV. Will his restaurants go under? I assume the other crap will, but the restaurants are a big deal, I think, though I don't know how much of his actually money is tied up in them.
Nevermind if Remy is in any way culpable here, I'm pretty surprised he would say this:
(http://fullcount.weei.com/sports/boston/baseball/red-sox/2014/01/28/jerry-remy-on-dc-im-just-going-to-come-back-and-see-how-it-goes/)
I have to imagine there's some sort of civil suit from all of this from her family. Doesn't this just open the floodgates as far as the family's real assets? Maybe he hasn't gotten legal advice, and I'm certainly no lawyer, but I would shut up about all of this ASAP.
(http://fullcount.weei.com/sports/boston/baseball/red-sox/2014/01/28/jerry-remy-on-dc-im-just-going-to-come-back-and-see-how-it-goes/)
I have to imagine there's some sort of civil suit from all of this from her family. Doesn't this just open the floodgates as far as the family's real assets? Maybe he hasn't gotten legal advice, and I'm certainly no lawyer, but I would shut up about all of this ASAP.
Infield Infidel said:
And his restaurant is still consistently packed. NESN's ratings aren't going to suffer one iota over this.
Name one other job Jerry can do to earn a living. He's been broadcasting for nearly 30 years...
Corsi said:
Completely irrelevant. He doesn't have the right to permanent employment. If NESN powers believe that his presence would hurt their brand and their business and thus cost them money, they would have every reason not to allow him back into the booth.
I think he's morally culpable but think that legal culpability would be a stretch. Generally speaking, beginning and then abandoning a rescue in an active situation of imminent harm can lead to liability (under the theory that you're assuming the duty and because of that, others won't) but it think there are probably too many intervening causes here especially with regard to the "enabling" stuff.Jnai said:
If the promise of protection that was not provided were true, that might be a closer question but even then, I'm doubtful.
Smiling Joe Hesketh said:
And obviously they don't feel Remy will hurt ratings or the brand.....If they are wrong, look for remy to "quit" and say his heart just isn't into it anymore.....
Well, I admit that he's probably not going to be able to start a daycare anytime soon, but maybe Remy's is hiring busboys.Corsi said:
Smiling Joe Hesketh said:
I'm not the one making the original argument. Infield Infidel is saying that Remy should just go do something else because there's a million and one jobs he can do. I'm arguing that that probably isn't true. NESN can do whatever they feel is appropriate (though I think they're doing the right thing keeping him around).
Of course it's NESN's right to relieve Remy of his duties, but keeping him in the booth is not going to hurt their brand in any meaningful way, IMO. I mean, there's a restaurant next to Fenway with a huge JERRY REMY'S sign hanging above the front entrance and its just as packed now as it was before.
I think we're severely underestimating how much Red Sox Nation, at large, adores Remy. The SoSH populace is in no way representative of Red Sox fans on the whole. We gripe about his gigglefests and his apparent boredom, but your typical Red Sox fans don't notice these things. I'd go so far as to argue that his will be come a sympathetic story and endear him even further to NESN viewers.
"Name one other job Jerry can do to earn a living." Unfuckingbelievble, the level of entitlement.
Myt1 said:
If we're going to talk about the level of responsibility that Jerry Remy or his wife have for this horrible crime, this is the critical factor.
The issue isn't whether Jerry and Phoebe Remy were good parents or whether the upbringing of the kids has any connection to their collective troubles. The issue is that Phoebe Remy appears to have played an important role in persuading Jennifer Martel not to file for a restraining order against Jared right before he murdered her.
I have no idea what role Phoebe Remy's actions played in the death of Jennifer Martel - and there may be no connection, because someone willing to butcher the mother of their child in broad daylight in front of witnesses doesn't strike me as someone who would be dissuaded by a restraining order. But the juxtaposition of that request and the immediacy (and savagery) of the murder is something that will forever be associated with the Remys. While that may be tragic and unfair, it's hard to argue that it's unjust.
I often wonder how much money OJ cost Lesley Neilson. Lesley didn't kill anybody, but the Naked Gun would not be funny with the spectre of Nordberg the wife killer made revisting the franchise impossible. It was over.
Remy was not pure comic relief, but a folksy, funny charm was part of his style and appeal. But that is gone now. I always defended Remy in gamethreads, but I don't want to listen to him, anymore. As mentioned, he is lot less removed from the tragic event than Neilson was. From a TV, audience, entertainment perspective there is no reason to bring him back.
It's over.
Remy was not pure comic relief, but a folksy, funny charm was part of his style and appeal. But that is gone now. I always defended Remy in gamethreads, but I don't want to listen to him, anymore. As mentioned, he is lot less removed from the tragic event than Neilson was. From a TV, audience, entertainment perspective there is no reason to bring him back.
It's over.
Reading this thread, you'd think that half of you can't distinguish between firing somebody and putting him in jail and making him starve to death.
Oh wait. That's literally true.
Oh wait. That's literally true.
Me, personally, don't really care about Jerry doing the games. I find the comedic banter between him and DO ok for the most part, as I usually aren't glued to the TV for every game. You also have to recognize who NESN's audience is. For the most part, the people who watch the games are not obsessive fans and eat Remy's schtick up. Jerry Remy is a tremendous color man for the 90% of the fans who causally watch games.
And besides, all those calling for Eck to get the job, hasn't he said in the past that he would never want to do a full season of games?
And besides, all those calling for Eck to get the job, hasn't he said in the past that he would never want to do a full season of games?
Maybe not the thread, just Myt1's posts.Corsi said:
Either way, I'm torn. I can see both sides to a certain extent. Why couldn't this have been done by Tim McCarver's kid so for once, everybody could just agree about something on this site.
Well I will continue to listen to the other teams broadcasters, as I have for several years. Jerry's schtick has been tired and boring for years. When Eck returns I flip back on to NESN.Corsi said:
Average Reds said:
Even if this is true about Phoebe Remy, I don't see how Jerry is responsible for the actions of Phoebe without any evidence that he knew and/or condoned what she was doing. I don't think Jerry is responsible for Phoebe's actions just because they are married.
Can you impeach the President of Red Sox Nation????
In all seriousness, I think we should take a long look at NESN here and the shabby NESN brand. They are linked to Remy more then most networks/teams are linked to an announcer (always exceptions like Vin Scully). Was that good idea? Is that something they should steer clear of doing?
I'm not behind the scenes by any stretch so maybe something was unreported but I also think it's bullshit that the same people who kicked Sean McDonough to the curb for being too honest (I heard the term they used inside Fenway was "whiny") are the same people who are cool with REMDAWG sticking around with that fucking idiotic beanie baby and the white chair in front of him.
In all seriousness, I think we should take a long look at NESN here and the shabby NESN brand. They are linked to Remy more then most networks/teams are linked to an announcer (always exceptions like Vin Scully). Was that good idea? Is that something they should steer clear of doing?
I'm not behind the scenes by any stretch so maybe something was unreported but I also think it's bullshit that the same people who kicked Sean McDonough to the curb for being too honest (I heard the term they used inside Fenway was "whiny") are the same people who are cool with REMDAWG sticking around with that fucking idiotic beanie baby and the white chair in front of him.
There appear to be two threads interacting here: the one that, as a functionally literate person, I am reading, and the one that Corsi and friends (term used loosely) are imagining they are reading.
Nothing about "Remy's history of beating women" or "the fact that his father got him a cushy job...etc." makes it more or less likely that Phoebe Remy might have made a decision on her own to call Jenn Martel. If you disagree, show your work. There's no obvious causal connection between the two propositions.Myt1 said:
Likewise, what the fuck does "solipsism" have to do with it? I can imagine something you find implausible, so I'm unaware of a world beyond myself? Stop being a dick.
No one would deny that they fucked up, and I've already said so. My understanding is that Remy has admitted as much. However, I don't know (and if you do know, you still haven't provided evidence; see above) that anybody but Phoebe Remy "talked the woman out of cooperating with authorities."
Again, stop being a dick.
Have you raised one? No, they're not the result of a random number generator, and when I talk about winning or losing a lottery of course I'm exaggerating. But the influence of parents on their children is much, much less (for better or worse) than anybody can understand who hasn't raised one. If you're a father, you should know better. If you're not, you might want to consider the possibility that you haven't the faintest fucking idea what you're talking about.
Myt1 said:
Actually I'm fine assigning Jared 100% of the responsibility for killing someone. Mostly because parsing it out beyond that is pretty pointless.
There are a lot of people involved and no one individual seemed to have done anything that "triggered" or "enabled" the actual killing. It's not like Jared is a violent hallucinatory schizophrenic who was encouraged to go off his meds by a party, or was told he should go kill Jen by a party. Jared had enough agency to kill or not to kill.
(As Jen had enough agency to decide to get a restraining order or not, which, as Average Reds pointed out, isn't some kind of magic force field.)
If you want to have a wider ranging talk about how to raise your kids and/or how to deal with domestic violence, that's fine; but there's a difference between doing that and calling for some sort of sanction for Remy (firing) when you're not in full possession of the facts (which is really the definition of scapegoating, btw).
***
(FWIW, regarding that hypothetical wider discussion, I don't think the completely commonplace issue of Jared's mother making a phone call or Jared's dad getting his loser son a job is nearly as interesting as the steroid issue. Jared literally transformed his body - I can't imagine how that wouldn't have an effect on his mind/glands.)
Between the age of 19 - 26 Jared Remy was arrested and charged with 11 crimes, 8 of which were violent crimes against women.
The fact that 8 years later Pheobe and Jerry let it get to 9 is absolutely fucking horrifying.
The fact that 8 years later Pheobe and Jerry let it get to 9 is absolutely fucking horrifying.
Judge Mental13 said:
The fact that the justice system let it get to 9 is even more horrifying, IMO.