Dammit. This is the guy I wanted. Ok, bring on Profar, I guess.
Then why do any of these young stars sign long term deals that they KNOW will end up shorting them money compared to what they could make on the open market?I’m not a professional athlete, but I can guarantee you that’s not how athletes think. They never believe they’re going to get hurt and they always bet on themselves. That’s because most of the times this events pay off.
My guess is that Devers sees himself having a Judge year more than what happened to Correa.
No group of players is a monolith, I didn’t say all players don’t do that but a vast majority don’t. Because if you turn your logic around, why would any player go to FA when a potential career ending injury is a play away?Then why do any of these young stars sign long term deals that they KNOW will end up shorting them money compared to what they could make on the open market?
We really did, actually -- we didn't have a single competent shortstop in AAA with Downs and Park gone.
What a coincidence! I was just telling my wife that we were going to need good rum to make it through this upcoming season.
Downs isn’t gone yet as far as we know, no news on him being claimed.We really did, actually -- we didn't have a single competent shortstop in AAA with Downs and Park gone.
Interesting. Goodrum had a lost year last year but seemed like a useful guy to have around before that. Good defensive infielder who can actually play shortstop, decent pop. He was a plenty helpful going into 2022, when he signed a $2.1M deal with the Astros as Jeremy Peña insurance.
In Worcester? I'm not crapping on the signing because you need depth but if he gets 300 PA in Boston, something has gone wrong.From 2018-21, he put up a 5.8 fWAR, on par with Josh Bell, C.J. Cron and Hunter Renfroe. He’s 31. Nothing earth-shattering, but there’s a good chance he gets a solid 300 PAs or so if he’s healthy and that same guy.
We still have Arroyo penciled in as a starting middle infielder. Something will go wrong.In Worcester? I'm not crapping on the signing because you need depth but if he gets 300 PA in Boston, something has gone wrong.
I'm assuming that changes.We still have Arroyo penciled in as a starting middle infielder. Something will go wrong.
I'm a little skeptical of the Drury interest once Turner was on board. I think there's just an autofill that puts the Red Sox in any sentence listing the teams that just missed out on a guy.From The Athletic piece on the Drury signing:
“The Red Sox, Diamondbacks and Marlins were in the mix for Drury, who could have signed with one of those clubs for more money with a one-year opt-out, a source said. But Drury’s connection with Nevin proved pivotal.”
Nevin managed Drury in AAA and was the one who recommended he sign with the Reds last year, which kickstarted his career.
If he’s healthy, the upside seems like Brock Holt, almost to the letter. Goodrum has more pop but strikes out more and is a better defender. Holt could play anywhere, but Goodrum plays anywhere well.In Worcester? I'm not crapping on the signing because you need depth but if he gets 300 PA in Boston, something has gone wrong.
Sure, but he's not on the ML roster unless there's an injury, right?If he’s healthy, the upside seems like Brock Holt, almost to the letter. Goodrum has more pop but strikes out more and is a better defender. Holt could play anywhere, but Goodrum plays anywhere well.
Holt had a lost year too in 2017, then came back for some solid seasons.
MLB careers through age 29:
NG: 9.2 BB%, 30.7 K%, .167 ISO, 88 wRC+, +13.3 defensive runs, 5.5 fWAR
BH: 8.3 BB%, 18.7 K%, .095 ISO, 88 wRC+, -8.4 defensive runs, 3.6 fWAR
So we're in play for the same free agents as the Marlins and the Diamondbacks. This completely sums up the Chaim Bloom plan and experience, no?From The Athletic piece on the Drury signing:
“The Red Sox, Diamondbacks and Marlins were in the mix for Drury, who could have signed with one of those clubs for more money with a one-year opt-out, a source said. But Drury’s connection with Nevin proved pivotal.”
Nevin managed Drury in AAA and was the one who recommended he sign with the Reds last year, which kickstarted his career.
Sure, or a trade. They’d have to see something from him in Worcester, because it’s hard to tell what happened to him last year.Sure, but he's not on the ML roster unless there's an injury, right?
You have to get an offer to reject an offer, so how many players actually receive the types of offers being talked about here because player reaching free agency doesn't equal a player who rejected an offer that would take them off the market before FA.No group of players is a monolith, I didn’t say all players don’t do that but a vast majority don’t. Because if you turn your logic around, why would any player go to FA when a potential career ending injury is a play away?
Agree. Not that that's a high bar to clear.Sure, or a trade. They’d have to see something from him in Worcester, because it’s hard to tell what happened to him last year.
But all I’m saying is that if he’s the guy he was from 2018-21, that guy looks higher on our MI depth chart right now than anyone besides Story and Arroyo.
I think people underestimate how heavily he would have to be subsidized. According to Baseball Trade Values, even if they attached both Trout and Ohtani to him, and we sent back, say Ryan Brasier, they would still need to give us an extra $30 M to even it out!... I am a little bullish on the prospect of a (heavily!) subsidized Rendon rebounding at the plate, and he does have some distant experience at 2B.
Who says no?I think people underestimate how heavily he would have to be subsidized. According to Baseball Trade Values, even if they attached both Trout and Ohtani to him, and we sent back, say Ryan Brasier, they would still need to give us an extra $30 M to even it out!
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not sure where this fits, but will leave it here to respond to BPMS post above. Could fit equally well in Devers or Front Office Faith thread…I can't stand spending money on guys like Matt Barnes, Chris Martin, Joely Rodriguez, Rob Refsnyder, Ryan Brasier, Josh Taylor, (truth be told Drury would have been in this level for me), etc while then letting your superstars go and not replacing them.
Fill those spots with league minimum guys / minor league contracts and use the "savings" to have some elite talent at the top of your roster. Spend on those players (above) when you have the elite talent already (the 2013 Red Sox model; not whatever the heck this is).
I don't think Bloom is as on the hot seat as you might think he is. Major league teams need stars, but that is not synomous with going full Mets. I think ownership and Bloom see the Astros and Dodgers and want to get to the point where they might have one or two gigantic contracts on the books, but most of the spending is mid tier. Lastly I don't think you need stars, whatever the means, to create excitment and sell tickets. If the team was full of players nobody has ever heard of and they were storming towards a playoff berth, there will be plenty of excitement, ticket sales and merchandise sales.not sure where this fits, but will leave it here to respond to BPMS post above. Could fit equally well in Devers or Front Office Faith thread…
To use an analogy from another sport, it strikes me that this is the Belichick model — avoid spending big on the stars, and have a substantial middle class of players.
I think most fans, including me, would agree with your contention that a major league roster is subpar without at least a couple of actual stars — to create excitement, sell tickets and jerseys, and ensure long term TV interest.
I’m not sure if any MLB franchises have managed to win a WS using the Belichick model, or for that matter to be successful in the medium to long-term. It certainly has not been the Red Sox model up to now. If that is Bloom’s plan, I don’t think he will be in the chair long enough to see whether it works.
I mostly agree with this with the caveat that if they aren’t storming to the playoffs then having stars still helps get eyeballs and butts in seats.I don't think Bloom is as on the hot seat as you might think he is. Major league teams need stars, but that is not synomous with going full Mets. I think ownership and Bloom see the Astros and Dodgers and want to get to the point where they might have one or two gigantic contracts on the books, but most of the spending is mid tier. Lastly I don't think you need stars, whatever the means, to create excitment and sell tickets. If the team was full of players nobody has ever heard of and they were storming towards a playoff berth, there will be plenty of excitement, ticket sales and merchandise sales.
Brady wasn’t being paid any where close to his superstar market level. This allowed the Patriots to have consistent depth across the team. I mean the team did finish 11-5 with Matt Cassel in 2008.Belichick won Super Bowls with literally the best player in the history of his sport.... how is that winning without superstars?
It's been 22 years since Manny Ramirez signed an 8 year/160 million contract. 20 million per year 22 years ago is worth 40 million today for star players. The prices and years on contracts for star players will not be going down. They are getting what the market will pay. And the Red Sox as a whole have decided they won't pay these prices. Not sure whose fault that is, but they won't pay it and thus we've lost Betts, Bogaerts, Benintendi, and Vazquez.I don't think Bloom is as on the hot seat as you might think he is. Major league teams need stars, but that is not synomous with going full Mets. I think ownership and Bloom see the Astros and Dodgers and want to get to the point where they might have one or two gigantic contracts on the books, but most of the spending is mid tier. Lastly I don't think you need stars, whatever the means, to create excitment and sell tickets. If the team was full of players nobody has ever heard of and they were storming towards a playoff berth, there will be plenty of excitement, ticket sales and merchandise sales.
Damnit, why can’t Bloom sign an MVP with a super wealthy spouse?!Brady wasn’t being paid any where close to his superstar market level. This allowed the Patriots to have consistent depth across the team. I mean the team did finish 11-5 with Matt Cassel in 2008.
Part of the Belichick model was also letting a very good player go a year early. Sentimental decisions can kill teams. That’s why fans are not GMs.
This aged poorly on both counts.RE: Correa
If I recall correctly often there is language added to the contract usually related to whatever it is they found during the physical. Such as, if the player loses 175 games to Achilles injury over the first 4 years of the contract then the rest is voided or reduced. If anything, those limits and penalties end up creating a whole new avenue for negotiations so perhaps the press conference will be delayed but I doubt that it will be voided.
RE: Drury
At that money, the Red Sox not being involved is terrible. A RHB with power who can play 2B/3B/1B would have been perfect for this team.
Agree in spirit but Vasquez/Benintendi aren't in the same ballpark as Betts/MannyIt's been 22 years since Manny Ramirez signed an 8 year/160 million contract. 20 million per year 22 years ago is worth 40 million today for star players. The prices and years on contracts for star players will not be going down. They are getting what the market will pay. And the Red Sox as a whole have decided they won't pay these prices. Not sure whose fault that is, but they won't pay it and thus we've lost Betts, Bogaerts, Benintendi, and Vazquez.
I strongly disagree. Let’s face it - Boston sports fans these days days are a “what have you done for me lately” group. (Belichick is a bum, Sweeney/Neely incompetent, etc).Damnit, why can’t Bloom sign an MVP with a super wealthy spouse?!
Has ownership/does ownership ever give a timeline for the turnaround? I think fans would be ok if they heard, “we will always be competitive, but we think our next multiple WS window is in 2-3 years.” It seems like the unstated direction and treading water makes everyone antsy that today’s troubles might well be next year’s and the years’ after.
Don’t leave out we acquired/paid AGon, Hanley, Rusney, Crawford, Panda and Price. A great contract extension on Pedroia that didn’t work out. A market extension on Sale that didn’t work out.It's been 22 years since Manny Ramirez signed an 8 year/160 million contract. 20 million per year 22 years ago is worth 40 million today for star players. The prices and years on contracts for star players will not be going down. They are getting what the market will pay. And the Red Sox as a whole have decided they won't pay these prices. Not sure whose fault that is, but they won't pay it and thus we've lost Betts, Bogaerts, Benintendi, and Vazquez.
Hell, add Yoshida to the list. A 5 year contract isn't anything to sneeze at. A lot of people were saying it was overpay - to me, that indicates that Bloom is more than capable of opening up the checkbook once he identifies his guy.Don’t leave out we acquired/paid AGon, Hanley, Rusney, Crawford, Panda and Price. A great contract extension on Pedroia that didn’t work out. A market extension on Sale that didn’t work out.
Or not retaining Pedro, Manny, Damon or Ellsbury at market prices.
I'm pretty sure most of us were very on board with 2021, when they gelled enough to nearly win the pennant.Once the Betts trade went down a great majority of Sox fans went straight negative on FSG and Bloom. JWH is cheap? Liverpool? Tampa Bay North? Uncaring, incompetent? It goes on an on.
One name that’s come up in trade talks, persons involved in the discussions told The Athletic, is Marlins infielder Joey Wendle. The asking price has been high up to this point, but the Red Sox feel that a left-handed middle infielder would be a good fit, and the smaller-market Marlins should have reason to move a 32-year-old who’s owed a projected $5.4 million in his final year of arbitration. The Red Sox don’t necessarily see Wendle as an everyday solution shortstop, but they do see him as potentially another piece of among a revolving and evolving list of shortstop possibilities.
Rumor-filled piece this morning from Chad Jennings at The Athletic. It sounds like the Red Sox Front Office has no clear plan at shortstop and there is no consensus about whether or not Trevor Story still has the arm strength to play the position at a high level.If that more substantial addition is a center fielder or second baseman — Bryan Reynolds from the Pirates, to offer a prominent example — the Red Sox would almost certainly have to choose between Story and Hernández at short. As recently as 2020, Story was considered one of the best all-around shortstops in the league, but he hurt his elbow in 2021 and his arm strength dipped. It was down again last season, though there’s an argument that he simply didn’t have to put as much on the ball since he was throwing from second base. Some in the Red Sox organization remain concerned that Story’s arm strength would be an issue if he moved back to shortstop full-time, and they prefer not to lose his elite defense at second base. Others argue that Story does other things well enough — lateral range, charging the ball — to provide adequate defense even without a strong arm. Like Story at second base, Hernández has been a strong defender in center field, and the Red Sox would prefer not to give that up, either. Hence the ongoing debate about which direction to go should the Red Sox be forced to make a decision.
How does it sound like incompetence?Trevor Story? Kiké Hernández? Joey Wendle? Red Sox still weighing shortstop possibilities
Rumor-filled piece this morning from Chad Jennings at The Athletic. It sounds like the Red Sox Front Office has no clear plan at shortstop and there is no consensus about whether or not Trevor Story still has the arm strength to play the position at a high level.
I have so many thoughts about this, but it's extremely disappointing to read. Letting Bogaerts walk was bad. Passing on Correa and Swanson was also bad. Passing on all three players and then shrugging your shoulders and saying, "maybe Joey Wendle, some days, but not every day, or maybe Story, unless he can't" sounds like incompetence.
My issue is that any casual observer of baseball could forsee a scenario where Bogaerts left for more money; that was something one could speculate happening more than 12 months ago. The fact that the Front Office didn't have a clear "Plan B" in place to make sure the 2023 Red Sox have a top shelf shortstop on the roster seems almost literally unbelievable.It would be great if there was an ideal plan B candidate out there we could all agree on, but the talent pool is limited and there simply isn't. Personally I'd rather be where we are than having 12% of the team budget locked into an aging shortstop for the next decade plus, but short term there are clear drawbacks, of course.
Some would argue the Plan B you are referencing almost perfectly describes Trevor Story.My issue is that any casual observer of baseball could forsee a scenario where Bogaerts left for more money; that was something one could speculate happening more than 12 months ago. The fact that the Front Office didn't have a clear "Plan B" in place to make sure the 2023 Red Sox have a top shelf shortstop on the roster seems almost literally unbelievable.
Yes, because the front office has been so transparent.Until they sign a middle infielder, no one from the Red Sox is going to comment on who is the starting SS in 2023. We fans will just have to be patient until that occurs, then I'm sure we'll get a rundown on the MI plan.
This is kinda nonsense. How many "top shelf" shortstops have the Yankees had in the ~15 years since Jeter was actually good? Like Didi Gregorious's career year in 2018 and ???The fact that the Front Office didn't have a clear "Plan B" in place to make sure the 2023 Red Sox have a top shelf shortstop on the roster seems almost literally unbelievable.