Phillies will look to trade Cole Hamels, Red Sox interested

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foulkehampshire

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ALiveH said:
As for the Sox' particular circumstances, #1 starter is probably the only spot on the whole roster that is not above average.  If the Sox add Hamels (or a similar caliber starter) they have to be considered clear preseason frontrunners for a championship.
 
Bullpen is a question, but we all know its a crapshoot. Not particularly confident after Tazawa. Maybe there's enough arms in AAA (Hembree, Wright, Escobar, Ramirez) to probably get by. 
 
Edit: Probably a discussion best served for the bullpen thread, though.
 

glennhoffmania

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ALiveH said:
I think it's not hard to argue based on $ per expected WAR and expected inflation that the $110/5 left on Hamels' deal slightly undervalues him on an absolute basis.  He's had pretty much an identical career to Lester & is the exact same age, so if he were a free agent he probably gets a very similar deal as Lester.  Therefore, on a relative basis he's almost definitely underpaid by a large margin.
 
 
 
This is exactly what I was trying to say.  I get what nvalvo is saying about how one data point alone doesn't necessarily set a market, but in MLB it basically does.  If Hamels had an opt out he'd exercise it right now, and I can't imagine he wouldn't get something at least close to Lester's deal given the similarities.  Therefore by definition he seems to be undervalued.
 

donchoi

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So what is the consensus then? Getting Hamels would cost Owens and Bradley Jr./Betts plus one piece?

Looking at that plus Hamels' 5/$114M to me doesn't seem very appealing, though seems like Bradley Jr. or Betts is destined to be trade fodder, with Rusney on board.

I'd be willing if we could redirect from Owens to another pitcher, like Kelly. Would they have any interest in Allen Craig?

Looks like Cherington is collecting young, semi-proven arms along with a bunch of prospects and hoping that one or two of them can emerge as more than what we think of them now.
 

TomRicardo

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Why are you using Betts and JBJ interchangeably?
 
They do not have close to the same value or utility at the moment right now.
 

Minneapolis Millers

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I agree that Hamels is slightly undervalued, and that he is also a consistent, reliable, #1 starter.  However, we should be able to get him for one of our top LH prospects (Owens/Rodriquez/Johnson) and a couple of other solid prospects that are blocked for us (JBJ, Cecchini, Marrero, Coyle, or a RH pitcher).  If that's not enough for Amaro, screw him. 
 
There's no compelling reason to grossly overpay for Hamels now, or to trade important/needed pieces (like X/Betts/Swihart).  Go explore other options.  And Boston's roster is strong enough across the board that they should be competitive without doing anything further right now.  Mid-season comes, they can reassess what's needed and available.
 

mt8thsw9th

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TomRicardo said:
 
Amaro is not a complete moron (though the Howard contract may have been the worst ever given up in baseball).  He was part of 2007-2011 Phillies team that was very good.  The problem is he did not move quick enough and now is saddled with an awful team he can't get out from under.
 
Why does being part of that organization from that stretch preclude being a moron? His problem wasn't not moving quick enough, it was not moving at all. The farm system is quite bad as well under his watch. While people like Theo would have looked at 2010, 2011, or 2012 as a season to step back and reload, Amaro thought he could just ride out the roster he inherited forever. 
 
Howard's extension was awful, as was extending Rollins, trading prospects for Pence then getting pennies on the dollar for him a year later; going for broke in 2010 and 2011 would have been justifiable had they not won in 2008; they're going to be a bad organization for a while, and Amaro has done absolutely zero to prevent that. Good GMs don't leave organizations in cinders like Amaro has. Thankfully the Red Sox have shown over the decade+ that you don't fall in love with individuals, and even when you have a down year you're always able to bounce back because you think 3, 4, 5 moves in advance.
 
I picture Amaro inheriting the 2004 Red Sox, and riding into 2010 with the corpses of Derek Lowe, Johnny Damon, Nomar's salary, Pedro, and company, scratch out 70-something wins.
 

Drek717

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TomRicardo said:
Why are you using Betts and JBJ interchangeably?
 
They do not have close to the same value or utility at the moment right now.
I think he was saying Owens + Bradley OR Betts + a lesser piece.
 
Thing is, if it was Owens + Bradley I'd probably hold my nose and do it, but I see no way that is enough for Philly.  Amaro is going to want two of Bogaerts, Betts, Swihart, Owens, Rodriguez, Margot, and Devers.  If it involves the last two he'll probably want a good bit more from the mid-tier guys (Cecchini, Coyle, Marrero, Johnson, Ranaudo, Barnes, Shaw, etc.).
 
Also, if it really comes down to one top tier prospect and one mid-tier guy we aren't likely to outbid the Dodgers with Pederson, Urias, and Seager if they really want Hamels, and I'd bet they're less committed to youth than the Sox FO.
 
In short, I'd suggest we all move on from Hamels trade scenarios until something heats up significantly enough to suggest it as being more viable.  Hell, there were rumors of Bastardo for Coyle, at the time that sounded like a batshit crazy offer for the Sox (one year of a good but not great LHRP in his third arb. year for the entire future pre-FA service time of a solid B+ prospect who can play 2B or 3B and has huge power potential relative to his position).  As it wasn't accepted and Bastardo was traded for far less just recently I'd suggest that was the price Amaro suggested.  If he wants a Coyle for Bastardo he probably wants Betts + Owens + Devers + Marrero for Hamels or some other equally asinine asking price.  
 
Dude doesn't live in the same reality as the rest of baseball, and the speed with which his team has become hamstrung by moves of his own making proves it.  He really is the ass in your fantasy league offering up random mediocre guy he over-drafted by two or three rounds to everyone's befuddlement for Trout.
 

Reverend

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Posts about the nonsense rumor have been moved here. Please only post news if you are certain you understand the difference between authoritative and non-authoritative sources; if you don't understand what I just wrote, please don't post news until you have occasion to familiarize yourself with the concept.
 
Also, we don't need twelve posts that add nothing about something that is nothing--it's a good example of a problem we have laid out here.
 

mBiferi

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“As close (to perfect) as I would like would be to go to a team that wants to win,” Hamels said Sunday night on MLB Network Radio, according to Philly.com. “… Whenever you’re in the postseason, that’s what you play the game for.” Hamels, who won the World Series MVP in 2008 with the Phils, hasn’t seen the postseason since 2011 when the Phillies got eliminated in the divisional series. The Phillies now appear to be in rebuilding mode, right in the middle of Hamels’ prime. “It’s unfortunate, but all great teams have that season or drought for a couple of years and then they start to rebuild,” Hamels said, according to Philly.com. “I know I’m young enough to be able to go out there and play, and I love playing in the city of Philadelphia. Nothing but the best. The fans have been great; the organization has been great to me. But I do understand that baseball is a game that will go on, even after I’m done playing.
 
http://nesn.com/2014/12/cole-hamels-insists-he-would-like-to-go-to-a-team-that-wants-to-win/
 

Doctor G

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ALiveH said:
I think it's not hard to argue based on $ per expected WAR and expected inflation that the $110/5 left on Hamels' deal slightly undervalues him on an absolute basis.  He's had pretty much an identical career to Lester & is the exact same age, so if he were a free agent he probably gets a very similar deal as Lester.  Therefore, on a relative basis he's almost definitely underpaid by a large margin.
 
As for the Sox' particular circumstances, #1 starter is probably the only spot on the whole roster that is not above average.  If the Sox add Hamels (or a similar caliber starter) they have to be considered clear preseason frontrunners for a championship.
Shortstop is a position I would consider to be a question mark. Bogaerts has not proven anything to me based on last year offensively. his defense is still a liability. I don't buy what I see in September playing for a team that is out of contention.
Converting double plays is a necessity for a staff of sinkerballers.
It is for these reasons that I would offer him to the Mets for Syndergaard or Wheeler and Flores.
 

Cumberland Blues

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Doctor G said:
Shortstop is a position I would consider to be a question mark. Bogaerts has not proven anything to me based on last year offensively. his defense is still a liability. I don't buy what I see in September playing for a team that is out of contention.
Converting double plays is a necessity for a staff of sinkerballers.
It is for these reasons that I would offer him to the Mets for Syndergaard or Wheeler and Flores.
 
If you're unsure of Xander's defense - you're not going to like Flores at all.  He got moved off SS in the minors and only moved back there because the Mets had no other options.
 

MakMan44

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Doctor G said:
Shortstop is a position I would consider to be a question mark. Bogaerts has not proven anything to me based on last year offensively. his defense is still a liability. I don't buy what I see in September playing for a team that is out of contention.
Converting double plays is a necessity for a staff of sinkerballers.
It is for these reasons that I would offer him to the Mets for Syndergaard or Wheeler and Flores.
Besides what Cumberland said, the Red Sox don't share your opinion. It's pretty clear, at this point, they're going to get him 150 games next season to play SS.
 

smastroyin

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I think his point is more that he doesn't buy into the idea that the Red Sox are above average at every position.  Although I think his reasoning is poor (why do we put more weight on Xander's September with a "go nowhere" team than his September (and October) with a "World Series winning" team, for instance) and I disagree with focusing on Xander, it is also a bit of leap to just say that the Sox are going to be above average everywhere (assuming all of Vazquez, Castillo, Betts, and Bogaerts to be above average is foolhardy).  
 

grimshaw

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Doctor G said:
Shortstop is a position I would consider to be a question mark. Bogaerts has not proven anything to me based on last year offensively. his defense is still a liability. I don't buy what I see in September playing for a team that is out of contention.
Converting double plays is a necessity for a staff of sinkerballers.
It is for these reasons that I would offer him to the Mets for Syndergaard or Wheeler and Flores.
Syndergaard and his 4.60 ERA in AAA last year?  And Flores and his .275 OBP in 375 PA while being a full year older?  These guys are no more or less ready than Bogaerts and haven't yet reached their athletic peak.  Let's give him more time and see what he can do.
There is absolutely no reason for the Red Sox to trade Bogaerts for anyone other than a cost controlled all-star.  They are one of the last teams in the majors who need ML ready prospects.
 

ALiveH

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What I meant is that on paper, it seems like each of Vazquez, Castillo, Betts & Bogaerts should be above average (in terms of total offense + defense package), but I agree that it is likely that one or more of our guys gets injured or has disappointing performance b/c that happens pretty much every year.  Also, these guys are relatively unproven so there is a wider error band.
 
On Bogaerts, even with the historic slump in the middle of the year, he still finished right around league average offensively for SS.  Can agree to disagree, but I'm optimistic he'll improve to be near the top of the pack based on his age, his end-of-year improvement and that the slump largely coincided with the move to 3B (so there could be a psychological element).  On defense, I thought he was around league average last year (maybe slightly below), but I heard that defense is his main offseason focus - working on first step explosiveness at API for example, so I expect him to maintain or improve there.  Anyway, reasonable people can disagree - just my 2 cents.
 
I'd really like to get an Ace (like Hamels), but I'm also concerned about getting under the LT next year & not having any financial flexibility for a midseason trade to bolster the inevitable area of underperformance / injury.
 

Doctor G

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MakMan44 said:
Besides what Cumberland said, the Red Sox don't share your opinion. It's pretty clear, at this point, they're going to get him 150 games next season to play SS.
The Sox at this point can't share my opinion. If the possibility to acquire a cost controlled young starter who is cost controlled in exchange for a player who has yet to establish a defensive position still think you have to do it even if it means you platoon Holt and Marrero at short.
To me this is a better bet than moving one of the other top four to Philly for Hamels.
 

Doctor G

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grimshaw said:
Syndergaard and his 4.60 ERA in AAA last year?  And Flores and his .275 OBP in 375 PA while being a full year older?  These guys are no more or less ready than Bogaerts and haven't yet reached their athletic peak.  Let's give him more time and see what he can do.
There is absolutely no reason for the Red Sox to trade Bogaerts for anyone other than a cost controlled all-star.  They are one of the last teams in the majors who need ML ready prospects.
http://m.mets.mlb.com/news/article/101669454/jim-callis-rusney-castillo-noah-syndergaard-could-be-next-roys stats are skewed by the league he pitched in and he would immediately be in the conversation for ROY if he started the season inthe Red Sox rotation as he will be if he starts the year in the Mets rotation.
 

MakMan44

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Doctor G said:
The Sox at this point can't share my opinion. If the possibility to acquire a cost controlled young starter who is cost controlled in exchange for a player who has yet to establish a defensive position still think you have to do it even if it means you platoon Holt and Marrero at short.
To me this is a better bet than moving one of the other top four to Philly for Hamels.
What? This is just flat out wrong. I love Syndergaard but if I'm given the option between him and Hamels, I'm picking Hamels because he's a better bet to be worth the trade over the next 5 seasons than Noah is. 
 

Hee Sox Choi

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Syndergaard for Xander?  TINSTAAP, Generation K and a lifetime of watching "can't miss" pitchers who missed, make this trade proposal foolhardy.  Would much rather sign Shields, go with what we got (and add in July) or just go with the 5 we have and wait for EdRod, Owens, Johnson & Co. to see what we have.  Syndergaard isn't helping this year and there's a slew of top-notch SP on the market next year, which we can afford.  
 

Doctor G

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MakMan44 said:
What? This is just flat out wrong. I love Syndergaard but if I'm given the option between him and Hamels, I'm picking Hamels because he's a better bet to be worth the trade over the next 5 seasons than Noah is.
check out Jim Callis' take in the link I just added to my earlier post. Good news on castillo too.
 

MakMan44

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Doctor G said:
check out Jim Callis' take in the link I just added to my earlier post. Good news on castillo too.
Again, I think Syndergaard will be a very good pitcher. I just don't buy any argument that he's likely to be a better pitcher than Hamels over the next 5 seasons. 
 

grimshaw

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Doctor G said:
http://m.mets.mlb.com/news/article/101669454/jim-callis-rusney-castillo-noah-syndergaard-could-be-next-roys stats are skewed by the league he pitched in and he would immediately be in the conversation for ROY if he started the season inthe Red Sox rotation as he will be if he starts the year in the Mets rotation.
They already have oodles of young pitching.  Who's to say Henry Owens doesn't out perform him next year.
And Xander was frequently mentioned as ROY candidate pre-2014.
 

PrometheusWakefield

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Good segway to this thought-provoking piece from Cameron:
 

The most obvious thing to note: elite prospects are super valuable for a reason. The best hitting prospects from 1994-2005 averaged +16 WAR during their team controlled years, and the best pitching prospects weren’t even that far behind, at +13 WAR over the same period; the #11-#25 hitting prospects almost matched that total as well. A top 25 hitting prospect or a top 10 pitching prospect regularly produced high levels of performance in their pre-arb and arbitration years.
 
And as much as everyone likes to bag on prospects for being unproven, the bust rates of these types of players was actually quite low; only about 1 in 10 produced nothing at the big league level. At the very top of the prospect charts, Baseball American did an excellent job of identifying players who could make an impact at the big league level, and the risk associated with these kinds of players is generally overstated. Elite prospects often turn into good big leaguers, and the rarely turn into nothing.
 
As a point of comparison, I looked at the leaderboard for the best under-32 pitchers from 2006-2008, to see how well they would perform in the six seasons from 2009-2014. The 10 best not-old pitchers in that three year window: Roy Halladay, Johan Santana, CC Sabathia, Dan Haren, Jake Peavy, Roy Oswalt, John Lackey, Brandon Webb, and then either Javier Vazquez and Josh Beckett if you’re using FIP based WAR or Cole Hamels and Carlos Zambrano if you’re using RA9 based WAR.
 
During this three year span, these aces averaged roughly +15 WAR, making them established five win pitchers with a significant track record of success. The age limit helps keep the list to just pitchers who reasonably should have been expected to have six years left in their big league careers. How’d they do over these past six seasons?
 
Halladay, Sabathia, and Hamels were awesome, producing at least +20 WAR by either FIP or RA9 versions of WAR. Haren was close, getting +20 WAR by FIP and +17 by RA9, and he threw the most innings of anyone in the group as well. But after those four, it’s a pretty big mixed bag, with some good performances, some bad performances, and a lot of injuries. Brandon Webb basically never pitched again. Carlos Zambrano and Johan Santana were okay when they were healthy, but weren’t healthy much. Oswalt had some good seasons and some bad seasons; ditto John Lackey.
 
All told, the top 10 pitchers by 2006-2008 FIP-WAR produced +14 WAR/+13 RA9 from 2009-2014. The 10 pitchers by RA9-WAR produced +15 WAR/+14 RA9, doing slightly better because Cole Hamels gets added to that group and pulls the average up a bit. Webb is the big bust in both samples, offering essentially the same 1-in-10 zero value return as the prospect group. Besides Webb, there weren’t any other players particularly close to zero value, so the elite pitchers offered a slightly higher floor than the prospects, but their overall average performance was actually a little bit worse than the best hitting prospects, and essentially even with the best pitching prospects.
 
That’s right; for all the talk about unproven risky prospects and established #1 starters, the average performance of six years of an elite pitching prospect lately has been in the same range as the average future performance of six years of one of the best pitchers in baseball. You can re-do the same calculations for other years, and the numbers will fluctuate a bit with age and stuff, but in general, once you’ve identified a “true ace”, you’re probably looking at something in the +15 WAR range over the next six years.
 
And Creagh/DiMiceli’s work suggests that elite prospects have been performing at similar levels. In other words, even without taking the massive cost differences into account, elite prospects and frontline starting pitchers seem to have about the same long-term values. 
 
 

Having said that, I'm not really sold on the application to Snydergaard, given that (a) he is only ranked #19 on BBA, not in the top 10; (b) his rank has fallen in part because of his elbow problems last year that could be a precursor to ligament problems down the road (e.g. Tommy John). I'm reminded of the data indicating that prospects who are traded on their way to the majors have a higher rate of injury risk than others and this would be his second trade before his debut. Top 20 pitching prospects have a total bust rate (0 WAR) of 28% and a basically bust rate (3 WAR or less) of 45%, which seems much higher than what I would expect from Hamels.
 
Although who knows. What I take from Cameron's numbers is that TINSTAA sure thing pitcher, whether he's a prospect or a veteran.
 

touchstone033

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This might cool the ardor for Hamels among some SoSH posters:
 
 
 
The good news, if you buy into this sort of thing: Las Vegas likes Boston's chances even without their ace. While they're not the favorites--the Dodger and Nationals are currently tied for that honor at 15/2--the odds (via Bovada.lv) have the Red Sox as the class of the American League at 9/1, ahead of the Tigers and Angels at 12/1 a piece.
 
I was also looking round for an article about how everybody's going for it in the AL this year -- with the exception of Minnesota and Houston -- because the second wildcard has made it possible for a mediocre team to make the playoffs. (And of course once in the playoffs, it's pretty much a crap shoot.) The point of the article was that the current playoff system rewards teams for being pretty good, but not great. Why sink extra resources into making your team great if they can bounced in the first round?
 
That is, the player WAR needed to become pretty good and contend for a playoff spot is very valuable. The player WAR needed to go from pretty good to elite is much less so.
 
My point: it might actually benefit the Red Sox not to trade any assets or commit more long-term money to more players. They're currently the Vegas front runners for the AL crown, and while you might not agree with that assessment, it's probably beyond dispute that the team's now good enough to make a run for a playoff spot, as is.
 
Forget Cole Hamels. The cost of acquiring him may not be worth the added value he brings to the team. I think the best strategy would be to stand pat and reassess as the year unfolds. Sure, add some low-risk depth parts. But if Boston needs an elite arm mid-summer, grab someone then.
 

MakMan44

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The problem with that is that anything you need at mid season is going to cost more than it will now. If you can get Hamels for a package headlined for Owens, that's probably worth doing because you're getting 10+ extra starts and you don't have to deal with inflated prices especially since sellers are becoming more and more limited in the second wild card era.
 

Drek717

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touchstone033 said:
This might cool the ardor for Hamels among some SoSH posters:
 
 
I was also looking round for an article about how everybody's going for it in the AL this year -- with the exception of Minnesota and Houston -- because the second wildcard has made it possible for a mediocre team to make the playoffs. (And of course once in the playoffs, it's pretty much a crap shoot.) The point of the article was that the current playoff system rewards teams for being pretty good, but not great. Why sink extra resources into making your team great if they can bounced in the first round?
 
That is, the player WAR needed to become pretty good and contend for a playoff spot is very valuable. The player WAR needed to go from pretty good to elite is much less so.
 
My point: it might actually benefit the Red Sox not to trade any assets or commit more long-term money to more players. They're currently the Vegas front runners for the AL crown, and while you might not agree with that assessment, it's probably beyond dispute that the team's now good enough to make a run for a playoff spot, as is.
 
Forget Cole Hamels. The cost of acquiring him may not be worth the added value he brings to the team. I think the best strategy would be to stand pat and reassess as the year unfolds. Sure, add some low-risk depth parts. But if Boston needs an elite arm mid-summer, grab someone then.
I'd take it one step further, unless the piece needed to acquire a mid-season upgrade is superfluous don't even entertain the big ticked mid-season acquisitions now that draft pick compensation can no longer be attached.
 
The goal should be to build a club that given basically neutral good/bad breaks and a league average amount of injuries lands in the 87 to 95 win range.  That would be good for #2 wild card on the low end pretty much any year and division champ on the high end pretty much every year.  If you get more good breaks than bad you have a shot at a high 90s/100 win season.  If you get a bunch of bad breaks you fall down to around a .500 club or a little below.  The key to maintaining that level of performance is restocking from the farm at a judicious pace, and finding good ways to develop farm talent into ML talent without taking on an absurd amount of risk (like breaking people in as parts of platoons, in the bullpen, etc.).
 

The Boomer

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MakMan44 said:
The problem with that is that anything you need at mid season is going to cost more than it will now. If you can get Hamels for a package headlined for Owens, that's probably worth doing because you're getting 10+ extra starts and you don't have to deal with inflated prices especially since sellers are becoming more and more limited in the second wild card era.
 
The other side of that coin is that, without spending any extra money, you will find out (mostly in the minors) whether Owens, Rodriguez or Johnson are ready to step in to replace an injured or faltering starter this season.  Hopefully, all 3 of these AAA potential long term replacements for Lester will succeed!  This would create a nice problem for the Sox (or anyone) to have.  If all 3 are as good as we hope, they could all be parts of the major league rotation long term.  One or more could be swapped for that expiring contract ace (though this is as much of a risk as acquiring Hamels now).  One or more could be swapped (just because of their leftiness) for a future righty ace such as Syndergaard (Mets), Wisler (Padres) or any other hard throwing future aces available from another organization at the trade deadline.  I mention these two pitchers in particular because the PCL can make a good pitcher look worse statistically than they really are.  It's the opposite of the Bagwell effect when Houston saw something they liked at the old canyon ballpark in New Britain when they chose Bagwell over the seemingly more advanced Scott Cooper for Larry Anderson.  Ball park effect distortions are a good way to turn another man's trash into your treasure.  Worst case is that 2 or all 3 of these top Sox lefties start to falter in Pawtucket.  However, they will only carry the opportunity cost of not turning them into trade chips now before their unexpected bad performances devalue their promise. They are all still young enough to overcome any developmental hurdles that arise. This is much less of a risk to take than the possibility of a Hamels injury during the next 5 years or that pitchers like Zimmerman or Cueto (as desirable as they will be) follow Lester into free agency after the Red Sox mortgage a worthy part of their future in exchange for this year's rent a pitcher.  The team's ability to control their young stud pitching prospects at relatively low salaries makes them keepers until they are no longer worthy.  Even if these AAA lefty 3 amigos disappoint, they still have value as trade chips to acquire decent pitchers or players that can be at least as good as Wade Miley for more cost effective salaries than risky (in terms of expense outlay) aces.
 

jasvlm

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I don't know that any projection system can be accurate enough to gauge whether or not getting Player X will dramatically improve their chances of winning the division vs. winning a wildcard slot.  So much of that situation depends on the performance of other teams that postulating that 94 wins gets you the division, but 90 only gets you the wildcard is a fools errand.  While I agree that marginal wins above a certain projected level (say, 84 wins) means that you increase your chances of making the playoffs with each rung you climb, that's about as much as you can conclude.  You want to maximize your current projected win total at all times-if you are looking to compete-balancing that need with the acquisition costs for the additional wins you could trade for or sign.  In this case, Hamels represents a relatively known quantity of wins, with a low risk of achieving that total because of his durability and track record.  Any one of the prospects we're discussing could produce a similar win total in 2015-at a fraction of the cost of Hamels, and be under Sox control for 5 more seasons beyond this one, at least.  However, the chances that one of those prospects actually does put up a Hamels like season in 2015 is very small, and depending upon that is unwise.  If you are basing your decision process on maximizing 2015 win totals, trading one or more prospects for Hamels is justifiable.  If the focus is on collecting controlled cost assets with the potential to considerably out perform their salary levels, keeping the prospects, even if the chances that they pan out might be pretty small, is the wise way to proceed.  
It seems like the best teams, who sustain excellence over a long period, mix these strategies and always have some level of young talent contributing on the major league roster, providing cheap win values while the big ticket veterans or free agents only represent a portion of the roster.  It would appear that the Red Sox have pushed their chips into the middle of the table with their investment in offense (Pedroia, Ortiz, Napoli, Hanley, Sandoval, Victorino all will make 10 mil plus in 2015), while allowing their young pitchers a chance to earn their way to the bigs unblocked by long term contracts on the mound (Buchholz, Porcello, Masterson, Kelly, Miley-none on long term deals).
They are sprinkling in Betts, Bogaerts, Vasquez and perhaps even Cecchini, JBJ and WMB to augment the offensive core, but the team is clearly built around paying the money to the bats, rather than the arms.  I think we'll see that trend continue, and NOT end up with a Hamels or a Scherzer.
 

GaryPeters71

New Member
Jul 29, 2005
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Mining for Cole: Tremendous Value
http://www.gammonsdaily.com/mining-for-cole-tremendous-value/

The trade market for Cole Hamels is as wide open as can be at this point. The only thing that appears to be certain is that the Phillies are looking to rid themselves of the remaining $70.5 million guaranteed left on his contract while adding some much needed pieces for the future. Additionally, Hamels (holding a no-trade clause) has expressed that he will only go to a contender. Among the teams he could approve, the Astros, Padres, Dodgers, Red Sox, Cubs, and Giants have emerged as potential trade destinations.

Regardless of where he winds up, the team that lands him will be picking up a tremendous value. You can essentially look at it as signing a 30-year-old ace to a 3-year deal, with a 4th year option. If you were looking to pick up a Cole Hamels type (a career 3.27 pitcher coming off a 2.46 season, who is a lock to give you 200+ innings this season) on the free agent market, you are looking at a 6-to-7 year deal in the $130-150 million range, for maybe 5 years of elite pitching, if you are lucky.
From a GM’s perspective, opportunities like this do not come around often. The potential to grab a guy of Hamels’ caliber at $70.5 over the next 3 years, makes it very hard to leave any deal on the table that would send him over.

Since 2008, he has average 212 innings a season with a 3.19 ERA. There simply is no one available at this price, that can give you this level of efficiency with such a great track record of staying healthy…
 

smastroyin

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He's writing this from the future, a year from now, when Amaro still hasn't dealt Hamels.
 
Of course even then he is doing that thing I hate where he ignores the option/buyout.  So even a year in the future, this is a 3/76.5 at minimum.  
 

glennhoffmania

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smastroyin said:
He's writing this from the future, a year from now, when Amaro still hasn't dealt Hamels.
 
Of course even then he is doing that thing I hate where he ignores the option/buyout.  So even a year in the future, this is a 3/76.5 at minimum.  
 
Even if that was the case the math is still off, unless I'm missing something.  Hamels gets 22.5 per year plus a buyout of 6, or 73.5.
 

smastroyin

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Hamels made 22.5 in 2014
He makes 23.5 in 2015, 2016, 2017, and 2018.
 
2019 is the buyout/option., and I refuse to explain it again.  I've already done it something approaching a dozen times in various Hamels thread.
 

ALiveH

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Would Hamels really use his NTC to stand in the way of being dealt to the Sox?  If this isn't a far preferable situation for him then I start wondering about his makeup.
 

Snodgrass'Muff

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There's a common assumption that a lot of these no trade clauses are included in contracts for exactly this kind of situation. It's unlikely these players have teams they don't want to play for so much as they want to maximize their leverage late in the life of the contract.
 

ALiveH

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If I'm the Sox, in the likely event we can consummate a deal for Hammels, I'd be tempted to call his bluff on the NTC (or only give him a very minor face-saving sweetener but nothing substantive).  If he'd rather stay in Philladelphia he's an idiot (you get a lot more endorsement $$$$ opportunities when you get national exposure b/c you play for a big-market winner).
 

P'tucket rhymes with...

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ALiveH said:
If I'm the Sox, in the likely event we can consummate a deal for Hammels, I'd be tempted to call his bluff on the NTC (or only give him a very minor face-saving sweetener but nothing substantive).  If he'd rather stay in Philladelphia he's an idiot (you get a lot more endorsement $$$$ opportunities when you get national exposure b/c you play for a big-market winner).
Players prefer to stay where they are or avoid particular cities/teams/situations for all sorts of reasons, and we're seldom given insight into what those might be for any given player.  Believe it or not, not every baseball player dreams of playing for a team that finished at the bottom of their division last year and has a looney tunes rabid fan base/media contingent.  If Hamels has the NT provision to Boston simply as a way of getting the last year guaranteed, that's an easy-to-solve complication potentially blocking a trade for a player that is presumably highly desired by the Sox.  If you think nickel-and-diming him on it and creating a problem where none exists is a good tactic, Hamels isn't the idiot.
 

Rough Carrigan

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What about Cliff Lee?
 
He'll be 37 next August and only pitched 81 innings last year because of a flexor pronator strain in his left elbow.  Before that he was good for 200+ innings a year.  He still had a stellar K/BB ratio last year.  He's supposedly on schedule and into his throwing program right now.
 
He has a contract that goes through 2015 at $25 million next year with a vesting option that gives him $27.5 million in 2016 if he pitches 200 innings in 2015.  He'd cost a lot less to acquire in prospects than Hamels and the commitment you have to him is even shorter. 
 
Yes, he's relatively old but at least through last year showed no significant decay in his game.  You might have to wait till spring training to have him show that he's healthy but I don't see why Hamels should completely eclipse Lee as a trade option.
 

Yelling At Clouds

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P'tucket said:
Players prefer to stay where they are or avoid particular cities/teams/situations for all sorts of reasons, and we're seldom given insight into what those might be for any given player.  Believe it or not, not every baseball player dreams of playing for a team that finished at the bottom of their division last year and has a looney tunes rabid fan base/media contingent.  If Hamels has the NT provision to Boston simply as a way of getting the last year guaranteed, that's an easy-to-solve complication potentially blocking a trade for a player that is presumably highly desired by the Sox.  If you think nickel-and-diming him on it and creating a problem where none exists is a good tactic, Hamels isn't the idiot.
He's already playing for a team that finished in last place and has a looney tunes fan base. And he won one World Series there and pitched in another. I don't know the guy, but I'm pretty sure he can handle Boston psychologically just fine.

That said, I agree there might be other reasons he is not interested in pitching here beyond financial considerations. It might be more like he feels his style of pitching won't be a good fit for the park. Wasn't that Schilling's reasoning before he was convinced otherwise?
 

TomRicardo

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Rough Carrigan said:
What about Cliff Lee?
 
He'll be 37 next August and only pitched 81 innings last year because of a flexor pronator strain in his left elbow.  Before that he was good for 200+ innings a year.  He still had a stellar K/BB ratio last year.  He's supposedly on schedule and into his throwing program right now.
 
He has a contract that goes through 2015 at $25 million next year with a vesting option that gives him $27.5 million in 2016 if he pitches 200 innings in 2015.  He'd cost a lot less to acquire in prospects than Hamels and the commitment you have to him is even shorter. 
 
Yes, he's relatively old but at least through last year showed no significant decay in his game.  You might have to wait till spring training to have him show that he's healthy but I don't see why Hamels should completely eclipse Lee as a trade option.
 
There is zero chance Amaro will trade Lee now.
 
If Amaro can get a good month or two out of him in the season he could trade him for something to a competing team.  Right now Lee is almost worthless (Maybe the Yankees, Giants, Red Sox, or Dodgers grab him on waivers)
 

Rough Carrigan

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I don't think anyone will trade for Cliff Lee right now.  Anyone trading for him will wait till he's made at least a few starts in spring training.  I agree that the midseason panic factor can raise value but a whole season of Lee should still be worth more than 2+months of him. 
 

geoduck no quahog

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The only teams unconstrained by the NTC are:
 
Yankees
Rangers
Cubs
Dodgers
Nationals
Cardinals
Braves
Padres
 
That's a peculiar list. High-budget teams like the Yankees and Dodgers, winners like the Cardinals and Nationals, his hometown Padres and - for some reason, the Braves, Cubs and Rangers. Only two AL teams.
 
If Amaro offers him to any of the other teams, he'd be an idiot not to squeeze concessions to forego his NTC. Why should he make Amaro's life easier when he can sit back and collect his non-option money just as easily in Philly?
 
This is a distinct advantage for the teams on the list above. They can offer the Phillies package "x" which, if suitable, means Hamels is under their control for only 4 years + their option. The other teams offer something less than package "x", because Hamels will demand a concession to ok the trade. Amaro probably isn't interested in anything less than package "x", which gives those 8 teams a leg up.
 
Speculating... 
 
- The Yankees have nothing of value to offer Philly, unless they take on Howard's contract
- The Nationals would only be interested if they trade one of their current starters to another team for a good return
- The Cardinals don't normally do stuff like this
- The Braves appear out of the market
 
So teams with an advantage are: Cubs (why not...they have money and prospects and still need pitching), Dodgers (money and need), Padres (money? and pitching trade chips), Rangers (huh?, I guess they have some trade bait and money)
 
Everyone else is at a disadvantage, because (to repeat myself), only an idiot would voluntarily relinquish the leverage gained with a NTC.
 

jasvlm

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Nov 28, 2014
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I think the commentary about Lee being an unlikely asset to deal.  He could well be an elite level starter again, but nobody would agree to take on that contract without seeing him throw and prove that his elbow is healthy.  He probably could be a midseason trade target, but he'll still have a ton of money (and a big buyout left for 2016-12.5 mil) to go on his deal.  RAJ missed his shot to trade him at the deadline this past year.  He'll have to give him away on waivers to get out from under, and that's only if he's pitching well.
 

Alcohol&Overcalls

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ALiveH said:
If I'm the Sox, in the likely event we can consummate a deal for Hammels, I'd be tempted to call his bluff on the NTC (or only give him a very minor face-saving sweetener but nothing substantive).  If he'd rather stay in Philladelphia he's an idiot (you get a lot more endorsement $$$$ opportunities when you get national exposure b/c you play for a big-market winner).
 
The issue is entirely that you CAN'T consummate a deal without accounting for the NTC - literally the contract can't be traded to Boston without the player assenting to changes, so the player has the power.
 
There's no "bluff" to be called - it's not like Boston can hold him hostage, he'll still play for Philly (or, better yet, someone who WILL give him the extra year). This is the cost of doing business with a player with a final-year option and NTC - and it's no surprise you generally see them together.
 

TigerBlood

Banned
Mar 10, 2011
330
Alcohol&Overcalls said:
 
The issue is entirely that you CAN'T consummate a deal without accounting for the NTC - literally the contract can't be traded to Boston without the player assenting to changes, so the player has the power.
 
There's no "bluff" to be called - it's not like Boston can hold him hostage, he'll still play for Philly (or, better yet, someone who WILL give him the extra year). This is the cost of doing business with a player with a final-year option and NTC - and it's no surprise you generally see them together.
 
Calling his bluff would simply be refusing to pick-up the option, and Hamels eventually waiving the NTC anyway out of desperation to pitch meaningful games or whatever. Its unlikely for exactly the reasons you state, but the possibility does exist.
 

Rasputin

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The more i think about it, the more I like the idea of getting Lee at midseason. It's a boatload of money, but on a short deal. If they think they can get under in 2016 or are willing to go over a second year in a row, it'll be my number one wish I'd he shows he's healthy.
 

TigerBlood

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330
Papelbon's Poutine said:
 
Except that if Amaro is truly motivated to move him at some point, when you refuse the option to try to play hard ball, he turns to the next highest bidder and trades him there. 
 
Odds are that the option will vest either way. He's always been healthy and over his career he's always covered 400 IP in any two season span (which would trigger the option). The chances he's not worth $14M in 2019 are probably low anyway. 
 
If you are assuming that there is a deal of equal prospect value with a team that's either not included on the NTC or is willing to pick up the option, then yeah. But that's not a given at all.
 
And given your second point, might that motivate Hamels to bet on himself and waive the clause to get out of Philly/onto a competitor, hoping that his option vests?
 
If we offered a mega-deal to Philly, say two of our four big pieces +, but refused to pick up the option, I wonder what type of internal pressure there would be on Hamels to waive it. (I am 100% not advocating that the FO do this, I'm just speculating on the behind the scenes stuff.) And if Hamels remains disinclined, does that entice Philly to offer to pay a larger part of his contract to Boston to entice us to pick up the option? It seems like a huge offer + refusal to make Hamels and Amaro play off one another, to our gain. We either get the four-year deal or a subsidized five-year contract. I know absolutely nothing about this sort of stuff, so I apologize if this seems gamethread-y.
 

Fireball Fred

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Lee when healthy was a ridiculously good pitcher, to the tune of 20.4 rWAR 2011-13. But apart from health, that NTC is probably significant- didn't he turn down the Yanks in 2010 to go to the NL? I'd ask, though - if the Phillies have any financial constraints, this contract (along with Howard's) is one they'd probably like to unload.
 

TomRicardo

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TigerBlood said:
 
If you are assuming that there is a deal of equal prospect value with a team that's either not included on the NTC or is willing to pick up the option, then yeah. But that's not a given at all.
 
And given your second point, might that motivate Hamels to bet on himself and waive the clause to get out of Philly/onto a competitor, hoping that his option vests?
 
If we offered a mega-deal to Philly, say two of our four big pieces +, but refused to pick up the option, I wonder what type of internal pressure there would be on Hamels to waive it. (I am 100% not advocating that the FO do this, I'm just speculating on the behind the scenes stuff.) And if Hamels remains disinclined, does that entice Philly to offer to pay a larger part of his contract to Boston to entice us to pick up the option? It seems like a huge offer + refusal to make Hamels and Amaro play off one another, to our gain. We either get the four-year deal or a subsidized five-year contract. I know absolutely nothing about this sort of stuff, so I apologize if this seems gamethread-y.
 
If it was important enough for the Philies to beg why not just pay the option themselves?
 

TigerBlood

Banned
Mar 10, 2011
330
TomRicardo said:
 
If it was important enough for the Philies to beg why not just pay the option themselves?
 
That's kind of what I meant by "offering to pay a larger portion of Hamels' contract". Because I'm guessing they can't just "pay the option" straight up? Sorry, this is all wildly speculative and I don't know what I'm talking about.
 
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