Pawsox being sold to Red Sox Ownership

Infield Infidel

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Boston Olympics for Providence would kind of be like all the South American countries nominating Brazil to host the World Cup when it was South America's turn. "Sure, yeah, you guys get to host and do all the heavy lifting while we enjoy the proximity." 
 

Brohamer of the Gods

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I had just loaded that onto tinypic. I would love to know what the $65 million estimate for renovations would include, though I doubt we will ever be told.
 

RIFan

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You could tear down the old part of the grandstand, shore up the footings and rebuild for probably less than $65 million, which is less than the $120m for the new ballpark. Seems like a good deal to renovate. :/
 

smastroyin

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I think they got an estimate to rebuild the entire bowl.
 
I got that thing today and frankly it puts me even further against.  I haven't felt this shitty about Lucchino since Tito was fired.
 

RIFan

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I looked at the online form to send a letter to your state rep/ sen. I'm not a programmer, but it looked like something a hacker could alter without out much of an issue.
 

Brohamer of the Gods

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Well the new Ballpark is only (only!) booked to cost $85 million to build. The $120m comes from the brilliant package whereby the State would essentially be paying off the mortgage for the team over 30 years. So we can't compare $65m to $120m, but using the same ratio for the Providence deal between construction costs and proposed State aid (a wild-ass guess based on a proposal the state has already rejected, but it is all I have to work with) you would be looking at $91.76 M to renovate - or about a 25% savings versus an almost 50% savings.

Now to really compare, someone would have to run the numbers of increased revenues generated by a new Downtown Providence park versus increased revenues of a rehabbed McCoy. I take Larry's $2m a year projections for Providence with a mountain of salt, but any increase in local revenues in Pawtucket with a renovated McCoy would be minimal unless the city gives them that adjacent athletic field to do something with.
 

Brohamer of the Gods

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A few more details about just what $65 million buys you in a McCoy rehab.

PawSox spokesman Jonathan Duffy released a breakdown of cost estimates: $6.1 million for site development, including new parking around the stadium; $36.8 million for a new field, entry, parking, site improvements and premium areas; $8.9 million for a new "360 walk around" on the concourse level, premium areas, expanded party deck, expanded concourse and seating and "Tiki Hut"; $11.1 million for upper-concourse level new seating, public restrooms, press box and expanded concourse; and $2.9 million in capital improvements for video control room upgrades, food-service equipment upgrades, scoreboard upgrade and power/lighting upgrades.
 
These figures had not been shared with Pawtucket, who got them from the Pro Jo.  Skeffington told The Journal, "I’m not going to give that report out. I’m not sure I can even find it, to be honest with you."

This has all the makings of a beautiful long con. Who wants to guess on the outlines of the public funding/free land/tax abatement package ownership grudgingly accepts to remain in Pawtucket?

http://www.providencejournal.com/article/20150517/NEWS/150519343

 
 

smastroyin

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Seeing reports that Skeffington died last night, so, I guess we'll see where that goes.  Skeffington was the guy with the RI connections.  Wonder if this will get Lucky to start pushing to see if any Mass towns will give him some great deal (based on history, they will not, but you never know)
 

steveluck7

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smastroyin said:
Seeing reports that Skeffington died last night, so, I guess we'll see where that goes.  Skeffington was the guy with the RI connections.  Wonder if this will get Lucky to start pushing to see if any Mass towns will give him some great deal (based on history, they will not, but you never know)
Terry Murray and Tom Ryan are plenty connected in the state too...
 

smastroyin

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Agreed, but Skeffington was the guy who was most "in" with the legislature and had previously been part of the group that got the state to build the convention center.  I think his part in the ownership was to get this thing done.
 

Brohamer of the Gods

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I am sure you are correct on that front. Interestingly, the Pro Jo also ran a bit in their political column this morning covering that very question.

"And all three have been — and remain — reliable contributors to top-level politicos in Rhode Island, including the state's new governor: Democrat Gina Raimondo."
 
Since 2002 - "Ryan, the former CVS Caremark chairman and CEO, has given $16,125 to candidates and officeholders of both parties. . . Since 2002, Murray — the former chairman and CEO of FleetBoston Financial Corp. — has given at least $9,500 in political donations . . . The $64,525 that Skeffington has contributed to a long list of Republicans and Democrats over more than two decades included $5,300 in contributions to Raimondo, from 2010, when she first sought elective office, through 2014."
 
Also, had we ever seen this list before - or had I just forgotten that NESN is a part owner now?

"According to the team, the others in the new PawSox owners group led by Red Sox President and CEO Larry Lucchino include: Habib Gorgi, of Nautic Partners; William P. Egan, of Marion Equity Partners; Frank Resnek, of Churchill Forge; BC Family Ventures c/o Bernard Cammarata; and New England Sports Enterprises c/o Sam Kennedy."

http://www.providencejournal.com/article/20150517/NEWS/150519352
 

Leon Trotsky

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A recent report showed that a typical AAA baseball park generates about the same amount of economic benefits as a modern 16-screen cinema. That is a pretty compelling argument against this boondoggle. 
 
I am hopeful that Skeffington kicking it reorients this conversation a bit and gets the ownership group to reconsider McCoy. 
 

8slim

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Orange Julia said:
I suspect that the team will leave Rhode Island now.
 
You think?  To go where?
 
I'm not sure the Sox would want their AAA team outside of New England, and the options seem limited.  A city would need to build a 10K+ seat ballpark to lure the team.  Who's doing that?  Worcester?  Springfield?  Manchester?
 

8slim

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StuckOnYouk said:
hartford?
 
I would think that's doubtful.  The stadium that's being built is for taking the Rock Cats from New Britain.  I don't know how they'd legally be able to abandon the Rock Cats ownership and give the stadium to the PawSox.
 

Scoots McBoots

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The Providence stadium deal is dead, Interesting quote (emphasis mine):
 
 
A spokesman for House speaker Nicholas Mattiello said Friday that negotiations between the state and the Triple-A affiliate of the Boston Red Sox had stopped.

“It is disappointing that negotiations have ended at the I-195 property. I thought that would have been a very successful location,” Mattiello said in statement released Saturday night. “A stadium there would have brought the community together and would have acted as a catalyst for further economic development in Providence.

“Unfortunately, different entities put artificially high costs on a deal, which proved to be insurmountable.”
 

smastroyin

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He's talking about Brown who wanted a ton of money for the parcel of Brown land they would have needed.
 

steveluck7

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smastroyin said:
He's talking about Brown who wanted a ton of money for the parcel of Brown land they would have needed.
yup.
they came back to the Pawsox @ $15 million for the land. And they also kinda did a "say whaaa?" when asked about Brown playing some football games at a new stadium. They have zero interest in that.
 

Brohamer of the Gods

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Not much more detail in the Pro Jo beyond

"Lucchino said the team is still looking in Rhode Island, but he would not talk further Saturday night. . . . Asked whether any Massachusetts communities have contacted the team, Lucchino said, "No comment."
 
The mayor of Warwick proposed a few sites near the airport about two weeks ago, but I couldn't imagine any of the parcels he named being big enough for a stadium. One is adjacent to the airport, which would make for a fine game watching experience.
 
http://www.providencejournal.com/article/20150919/NEWS/150929927/0/breaking_ajax
 

smastroyin

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They are hoping some desperate town will want to just make their dreams come true with the stadium.  
 
Mayor of Pawtucket wants to talk to the state about what could be done to McCoy with a smaller amount of state money.  But this is largely symbolic at this point, I'm sure Grebien would like to keep the PawSox but as noted earlier, the city could probably get better use out of the land.  So it wouldn't be a huge loss if they went.  It might be a bigger loss for the state if they leave the state I guess?  
 
I have heard the Worcester is not really eager to jump in the stadium building business, similar actions have been killed in Springfield in the past, even for AA stadium.  
 
New Bedford really would like to be considered, and they are building a nice area around the whaling museum, but I don't see Mass giving them the money or having the money themselves.
 
I think they missed their chance to jump on Hartford and the political climate there.  
 
The thing about Pawtucket is that it is a little of a pain to get to but at least Central to a large population.  Warwick is interesting only because they tend to have money from the airport and they have some federal money to develop around the newly built train station and transit center, though I'm not sure there is space for a stadium in that area, really.  And if it is not walkable from the transit center I just don't see the point.  Beyond that, Warwick might make it more attractive from families and businesses from southern RI to get to games, but it cuts off almost everyone north of Providence because of the traffic, etc., and the population and business base is just much better in southern Mass than Southern RI.  So while Warwick may be able to get stadium numbers to work, I'm not sure they would get the sales that you would get in Providence or even staying in the bucket.
 
So what else might happen?  To be honest, while I am opposed to the public $$$ I thought they picked essentially the best site in Providence.  There are plenty of other holes in the city, but the land acquisition to get a site large enough for a stadium plus parking would be really hard, and certainly not going to be a central location.  You could maybe try to buy some of the land from JWU harborside (where they have their athletic fields) but that would be a tough area for traffic so they would probably have to ask for infrastructure as well.  I definitely don't think you want to put it in the middle of the industrial waterfront.  You could maybe get it in Gano Park if you take all the buildings along Gano St., but it would be a tight fit and there would be no ancillary parking, I don't even know if the site can support a building, and getting the city to give up a park given the initial response to this stadium might be pretty hard.  
 

smastroyin

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I'm not going to search through the bylaws, but I'm not sure having a AAA franchise 10 minutes from a AA franchise is in anyone's interest.
They would definitely have to add seats, again I'm not looking it up but they only have 6K seats now.  I think International League wants 10K minimum.  This would not be simple work, they would have to tear down at least some of old Beehive to make room for expanded bowl, etc. and I think it would largely be not any less cheap than upgrading McCoy.
 

smastroyin

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I think East Prov has a couple of workable sites as well.  
 

Leon Trotsky

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Why would they move to any of those places (EP, Lincoln?). It's clear that Lucchino wanted to build a new mini-Camden Yards. But with the politics actually going hard against them, there is no way that is happening, probably anywhere in New England. My greatest fear is that now the path of least resistance is the team becoming the Foxboro Parking Lots.
 

Brohamer of the Gods

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The Lincoln site would only work in conjunction with the casino. Otherwise, you are correct it is just another chunk of land along a highway.

If they are going to stay in New England, Providence or somewhere in metro-Boston are obviously their best markets. Worcester couldn't support an Independent League team a few years ago.
 

RIFan

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Brohamer of the Gods said:
There is a big chunk of open land behind CCRI Lincoln, just northwest of Twin River. No idea of the ownership, but very close to 146.
If they go that way, the Smithfield Peat / State salt barn property at the junction of 116 and 7 in Smithfield is better.  It would be less than a mile from Rt 295 and less than 3 from 146.  The development of the property is in dispute between Smithfield Peat's plan to make it mixed use and the towns desire for it to be zoned industrial.  Smithfield is notorious for being difficult to deal with on development, but a ball park might finally get some movement on developing that area.
 

Buzzkill Pauley

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Leon Trotsky said:
Why would they move to any of those places (EP, Lincoln?). It's clear that Lucchino wanted to build a new mini-Camden Yards. But with the politics actually going hard against them, there is no way that is happening, probably anywhere in New England. My greatest fear is that now the path of least resistance is the team becoming the Foxboro Parking Lots.
 

They should just head up the road a little and be the Wrentham Outlets.
 

The Talented Allen Ripley

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Brohamer of the Gods said:
If they are going to stay in New England, Providence or somewhere in metro-Boston are obviously their best markets. Worcester couldn't support an Independent League team a few years ago.
 
There's a significant difference between an Independent League team and the Triple-A affiliate of the Boston Red Sox, particularly in a market like Worcester.
 

8slim

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The Allented Mr Ripley said:
 
There's a significant difference between an Independent League team and the Triple-A affiliate of the Boston Red Sox, particularly in a market like Worcester.
 
 
Exactly.  I don't think there's many relevant comparisons of past fan interest for the various potential markets, because none of those past examples are the AAA team of the Red Sox.
 
I mean, the Bridgeport Bluefish down my way draw flies, but make them the Bridgeport Red Sox and they'd attract crowds 5X what they do now.
 

JimD

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Leon Trotsky said:
My greatest fear is that now the path of least resistance is the team becoming the Foxboro Parking Lots.
 
Not me - I'd love to see what a Lucchino-Kraft alliance could build.  If you're not going to be able to build a downtown ballpark anywhere, a Foxboro ballpark wouldn't be the worst alternative.
 

StuckOnYouk

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Really pisses me off that CT has a brand new stadium right when the AAA sox are on the market and it's not happening.
Anyway CT can back out of it's AA deal? Grasping at straws
 

smastroyin

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Yeah, I think capital cost will be cheaper in Worcester (at least land acquisition) but I'm still not sure I see Worcester kicking in 90 million to build a stadium or agreeing to an outrageous yearly lease for the stadium like the original Providence proposal.
 

smastroyin

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Springfield I guess is also in, with the stadium attached to their casino deal, which is already turning into a clusterfuck.  But both Springfield and Worcester are pitiful wisps of smoke right now.  Both mayors have said they would not be in favor of public financing of the stadium.
 

1918stabbedbyfoulke

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Rovin Romine

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I never really understood why municipalities don't simply insist on being paid back, dollar for dollar with interest.  Give the new team a good deal in exchange for a long lease, but get paid.  Instead there's always some kind of fairy tale about the general economy picking up, or a shady parking garage deal.  
 
Unless you're pulling from outside the city (ideally outside the state), you're not going to magically get people to spend more money locally than they already do.   A Providence stadium will be largely full of people from in and around Providence, who are spending their Friday night money at the restaurant near the stadium instead of the restaurant near their house.  
 
Seems like the average attendance isn't going to be greater than 10K per home game.  http://www.milb.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?t=l_att&lid=117&sid=l117  How many of those will be out of towers or out of staters?
 
Granted, there's the train from Boston, so Providence could run some kind of package deal to import Bostonians on the weekend. . .
 

moondog80

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8slim said:
Springfield officially talking to the Sox now:  
 
http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/2015/10/13/springfield-mayor-opens-stadium-talks-with-pawsox/jN8VoYivfBE1iiir8SnPqN/story.html
 
This things has turned into such a strange situation.  I'm waiting for it to be settled with a NESN reality show where 8 New England cities compete to win the right to publicly finance a new AA stadium.
 
The Providence metro area has 1.6 million people, Springfield 629,000.    And the Providence fans are more likely to be Red Sox fans, right?
 
They're bluffing.
 

smastroyin

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I don't think it's a bluff so much as they will look at any offers and hope someone springs for a great deal for them.