No, not ignored should be dealt with and disciplined. But attempting to end another players career by decapitation is either worthy of suspension or it is not, and it should not be mitigated by whatever else was said or done.
Odell Beckham Jr.
- Thread starter Turrable
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Addressed to Oil Can
Did you watch the game? OBJ was out of his mind. Norman may have started it, but OBJ played like a lunatic for most of that game. He could not control himself, tried to injure Norman in the 3rd quarter well after the :"bats": thing. IMO the recently discussed "extenuating" circumstances sound more invented than actual, is being used as an excuse, and does not excuse OBJ. Its a brutal precedent for behavior that would get him arrested for assault off the field.
Did you watch the game? OBJ was out of his mind. Norman may have started it, but OBJ played like a lunatic for most of that game. He could not control himself, tried to injure Norman in the 3rd quarter well after the :"bats": thing. IMO the recently discussed "extenuating" circumstances sound more invented than actual, is being used as an excuse, and does not excuse OBJ. Its a brutal precedent for behavior that would get him arrested for assault off the field.
Exactly. If there were uncalled cheap shots from the other side that drove OBJ's action, then punish the other player in addition to upholding the suspension on OBJ.
And yielding a bat making not-so thinly veiled homophobic threats to end a career of a gay man wouldn't result in an arrest off the field? Lotta privilege in this thread, man.
There was scant discussion on Sunday after the game of these elements as odious as they may be. Its sounds like an excuse. However, lets assume homophobic slurs were aimed at OBJ and his response was to assault someone, is he innocent? IMO it sets a brutal precedent. The NFL could eviscerate the Panthers for their behavior, punish them (bats) and Norman, but at the end of the day OBJ is responsible for his actions. And we all saw them for the better part of 3 quarters of football. The man could not control himself and he was dangerous. IMO there are no hateful words which can rationalize his behavior.
Perhaps someone already mentioned this up thread and mea culpa, if so. But Troy Brown substantially down played the "homophobic slur as an excuse angle" when asked about it on one of Comcast's shows the other night. His answer was that really bad stuff gets said all the time and does not excuse the out of control behavior that OBJ displayed.
Not that what he said isn't obvious. But Brown is pretty level headed and it was a nice reality check to hear that this incident wasn't exactly unusual.
Not that what he said isn't obvious. But Brown is pretty level headed and it was a nice reality check to hear that this incident wasn't exactly unusual.
I know that the Panthers team held bats but has it been definitely established that someone held the bats while making threats and while also making comments about his sexuality. Further, has any of this behavior (beyond the name calling) been attributed to Norman?
Yeah, theres no way Beckham is the only guy last weekend or any weekend to be the target of violent threats or homophobic slurs on the field. Doesn't excuse threats or slurs but they are definitely not an excuse for his response.
Pretty much, Stitch01. As a Giants fan I am actually glad this is happening. I don't need him to star in another last minute loss and it was an embarrassment for all of us involved. There is no excusing his behavior. I am thrilled to have him on the team but he almost paralyzed that man with that one targeted hit. He really lost his damn mind. Good to see the league to make the right decision.
Yes, Stich, I believe so. If that was a legit Jaworski Twitter account -- and I have no reason to believe it was not -- that is precisely what they did.
Jaws said "wow", most people reacted sensibly like Giants fan jack leary above, so they backed off. "Sorry, Mara, we can't give your guy a pass on this one."
How exactly are they checking the reaction? Reading tweets and comment threads? Listening to sportstalk radio? Watching ESPN? And why would they care?
Jesus, I'm confused and apparently just catching up.
They leaked that the suspension was overturned and then announced that it was upheld? WTF NFL?
They leaked that the suspension was overturned and then announced that it was upheld? WTF NFL?
He doesn't.
The accusation of homophobic remarks did not come up in today's hearing, according to reports. Several Giants players reported hearing no homophobic remarks. Even Brad Wing, who reported the pre-game encounter with the guy holding the bat, who was believed to be a practice squad guy on Carolina, said he heard no homophobic remarks, though Wing also said he did not hear everything.
Some of our colleagues will be disappointed. They wanted ODB's suspension lifted, and lifetime bans issued to Norman and Finnegan for alleged homophobic remarks.
I'm glad the suspension was upheld, but this further proves the NFL is a circus. It is amazing how inept the league office is. They continue to play these games with the players over their worry of PR and continue to screw up every move.
Who's "they" in that second sentence?
Related: Are we really not killing the messenger ('s employer) on this one? ;-)
We can all agree that they threatened to end his career with baseball bats and that he was legitimately in fear of armed assault and battery, though, right? Coughlin said that the provocation was "well-documented."
"They" is (apparently) the NFL, who (it would appear) put out the story to selected reporters that the suspension was overturned and then announced later that it was upheld.
I have no clue what they are doing. None at all.
Edit: Responding to sf121
I have no clue what they are doing. None at all.
Edit: Responding to sf121
Well yes. If I don't agree, liberal fascists will hijack my Merry Christmas.
It is astounding how now feeble Tom Coughlin has lost his fastball. This is the shell of the Marine Colonel, who upon taking control of the new Jaguars franchise, demanded his charges keep ther backs straight, lids on and feet on the floor. Old Tom would have pulled his ass off the field pronto.
Most interesting to me is how some Giants fans firmly believe the team "ruined" Jeremy Shockey through acquiescence and fear ODB is on the same path. Which is among the reasons I believe Tom will be out of there. The team is on the decline and arguably out of control.
I doubt the NFL used Tynes, whose "report" came before the end of the hearing. The former kicker is a bit of a showman on twitter, who likes performing for his audience. And this was a 50/50 bet - that Tynes slanted to his "home" audience.
Jaworski, meanwhile, seems to have had his number pulled out of ESPN's Bingo bucket to be the "source" for this NFL trial balloon. Then again, it's ESPN and their track record for "flat out makes shit up" is Pravda-ian recently.
So while I'd love to grab a bat and take a few swings at the NFL...I can't.
I think the decision to uphold fits with the NFL's recent policy of pretending to care about player safety when there is a spotlight on the issue and continuing their decades-long policy of "don't give a shit" when there is no public pressure. The Wallace incident - which, BTW, thanks to you and everyone else who kept bringing it up - would confirm my preconceived notions on this story: the NFL only cares about player safety as much as it is forced to by circumstance.
That no NFL network talking head loudly opining about this brought up concussions is all I need to chalk this one up to the NFL's "move along, nothing to see here" policy.
You might be right that "old" Tom would have yanked the player. But that "old" Tom would also be unemployed. If Coughin hadn't learned to deal with players better than "Colonel Tom" did, he'd have been ex-coach Coughlin for more than a decade. Like Belichick in his first iteration, Coughlin learned go-along-to-get-along principles when dealing with players, and it has served him well in his Giants tenure.
You say "lost fastball," I say "learned how to operate in a professional context." Belichick didn't pull Talib after his antics with Angry Steve Smith a few seasons ago. Wes Welker suffered more serious professional consequences for some jokes at a press conference.
Your second paragraph would work, verbatim, on WFAN between 2-6 PM. Francesa would dole out UUUUUGGGGGEEEE kudos for that take. ;-)
I put no stock in what Tynes said, but I assumed that Jaworski got it from someone and I presumed it was the NFL. (Hence the equivacation.)
Your conclusion about the NFL and player safety in light of the silence surrounding Wallace is simply inescapable. They (the NFL) only care when media pressure forces them to care.
Your conclusion about the NFL and player safety in light of the silence surrounding Wallace is simply inescapable. They (the NFL) only care when media pressure forces them to care.
He might hang on if he wins his third Super Bowl. Damn.
This is a strange league. 15 yards for excessive celebration or taking your helmet off. Nothing for throwing punches, which both players did without penalty. And Dez Bryant threw one Saturday night. Crazy.
This is so wonderfully NFL. Ratchet up a hot takes debate and publicly decry ODB's outrageous behavior while simultaneously sending out tweet after tweet of Norman and ODB's "battle," to sell the conflict. Then, immediately after the appeals hearing, leak false information to further inflame the talking heads and gauge public reaction before making an actual ruling.
Nothing would make me happier than a full-fledged FIFA style investigation into that office.
Nothing would make me happier than a full-fledged FIFA style investigation into that office.
You and some of our colleagues seem to be outright dismissing what I've said from my first post in this thread and that's fine. It's hearsay, I get it. But it might be a worthwhile exercise to consider what the You Can Play organization does, their involvement with OBJ and the game in which these antics allegedly occurred, as well as with what Deion Sanders has said with respect to his sources who were on the field. I know average reds entirely dismissed what Deion said and that's his right, but I'm probably not going to do that here. There's smoke.
What I am least surprised with in this saga is the walking it back from the Giants' perspective. This is a very slippery slope for all involved with no simple answer. Beckham's actions were always worthy of a suspension but there is more at play in all of this.
I too think Beckham should be suspended and whatever was said to him is not a mitigating factor. There's no room for hits like that.
That said, its a little naive to think that no homophobic remarks were uttered. If trash talking in the NFL is anything like the stuff that provokes fights amongst lower level aggressive athletes, it involves some combination of insults re: weakness, femininity, poor performance, the player's significant others, sisters, and mother. Do you think Norman was insulting Beckham's SAT scores on the field?
It could be that Norman was following Brady's lead, I suppose:
"He [Brady] was trying to tell me how to bag a Hollywood actress," Suggs said when asked what the two were talking about on the field. "He said, 'If you want to get a Hollywood actress, take my seminar on Saturday.' ...He was going over the Dow and the economy and politics. He doesn't really talk football that much."
It might be a worthwhile exercise to remember that Beckham played like an asshole in an earlier game this season in which none of this, or the bats---MYGODTHEBATS---were in evidence.
I wish it was parody, I just can't wrap my head around the process of these supposed false leaks to gauge reaction. So we're to believe there's a minor conspiracy in the NFL where they leak something to Jaworski, then several NFL executives and media managers scour the internet and flip on mike and mike to wait with baited breath for what people are saying? It just seems woefully inefficient and subjective. Especially since sports media is at a pro-wrestling level of creating fake, "controversial" storylines, and that if you look at twitter for 4 seconds you can find someone on any side of any argument. Who are their trusted "reactors?" It's bizarre. Not saying that the NFL isn't a completely fucked up, corrupt enterprise run by strange weirdos, but in this instance I'm having trouble suspending my disbelief.
It's well known that many major companies employee people to monitor social media as a form of brand management. This is an SOP. In this case, the "leaks" would represent "real-time" market research among those fans, media, and team personnel most interested in the #NFL (duh).
Gauging reaction on social media happens passively all the time. The twist here is the "planting" of a perspective with affiliated media members as a disintermediated 'ping' to the NFL universe. I'm not surprised in the least that this has now become a calculated strategy by the NFL.
P.S. I don't think OBJ is a victim in any way, shape or form here. He deserves the suspension. IMO, NFL football games are not the vehicle for a societal conversation on name-calling, labels, and other forms of verbal discrimination.
Gauging reaction on social media happens passively all the time. The twist here is the "planting" of a perspective with affiliated media members as a disintermediated 'ping' to the NFL universe. I'm not surprised in the least that this has now become a calculated strategy by the NFL.
P.S. I don't think OBJ is a victim in any way, shape or form here. He deserves the suspension. IMO, NFL football games are not the vehicle for a societal conversation on name-calling, labels, and other forms of verbal discrimination.
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Not only that, but they hang Jaworski, probably ESPN's most respected and non-controversial football guy, the film student and professor, out to dry on the false report.
This mere days after ESPN's Outside The Lines reported on the concussion study funding.
Merry Christmas.
This mere days after ESPN's Outside The Lines reported on the concussion study funding.
Merry Christmas.
I realize this has been said many times, but if this is the case, and I'm Jaworski, I burn my source. Especially since his current gig doesn't seem to revolve around getting scoops, ala Schefter or Mort, but is supposedly more analytical.
On second thought, perhaps the source isn't actually in the NFL but is someone they used as a messenger. In which case it gets really hard for Jaworski to connect back to the league, and probably doesn't help his case.
I think I'd burn my source anyway. Of course, IANAJ.
Perfect coda to this, Guest host on Tiki and Tierney just said he heard that Mccaulie and crew aren't even being punished for losing control of the game even though by all accounts , including Blandino, they screwed up.
GJGE NFL
GJGE NFL
Deadspin covered it here:
http://deadspin.com/espns-ron-jaworski-would-like-you-to-ignore-his-breakin-1749501330
He did not have confirmation and ESPN's editors apparently slapped his wrist for breaking protocol.
I'm in the 'this is not a conspiracy on weather ballooning" camp. Jaws just got bad info.
The "smoke" is the idea that anti-gay slurs were used on the field and I don't see anyone trying to downplay this. But you went well beyond this and presented as fact the idea that bats were "wielded" (I presume that's what you meant) in a threatening fashion in conjunction with anti-gay slurs when there is simply no evidence that this was the case. Then you tried to use your speculation to shame others into agreeing with your positon, which is poor form.
The fact that the Giants' actions do not support your position cannot logically be used to support your position.
I am not trying to shame anyone into anything, apologies if it's come off that way. There's a more nuanced discussion to be had here and I guess I've just been trying to have it.
I know that I've posted a lot in this thread but I just honestly find this saga to be one of the most captivating sports stories that I have followed in years. Am I bridging some gaps? Certainly, but I am quite confident that these are not just rumors about Beckham Jr - as far as who he is as a person. In terms of what happened on the field, I'll concede - I don't know. I have no idea why Deion would attach his name to something fabricated, but maybe that happened here as well. I really doubt it but again, I can't be certain. It's not a leap for me to presume some nasty shit - well beyond the norm - was happening on the field. Jesus, Cortland Finnegan was saying that Beckham had "female blood" or whatever that means in his post game interview, it's not exactly a stretch to imagine some much nastier stuff being said on the field. Again, not excusing Beckham's spear but I don't believe many here can truly understand what would be going on in his mind.
I posted this article the other day but I think it's a pretty worthwhile read.
http://espn.go.com/espnw/news-commentary/article/14414751/players-taunts-undermine-new-york-giants-inclusive-message
You're not trying to have a nuanced conversation. You're making things up about what happened on the field with nothing more than a, "It's not hard to imagine that worse things were said," as a basis for the argument that bat-wielding homophobes threatened to end a gay player's career and that it was those threats that made Beckham, I don't know, defend his career with a ten yard running spear?
At this point, I'd be surprised if a homophobic slur weren't used. That possibility doesn't give you license to just make things up for which you have no evidence and then lazily invoke privilege when people aren't willing to indulge your flight of fantasy.
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Stop acting like he's openly gay. Until ODBjr decides to report his sexual orientation as a public issue, it's not your damn business and it's not appropriate to assume. If you want to have a nuanced conversation on how nasty words mitigate a head spearing, good luck.
Yeah you can't really deny being gay and use gay insults as a license to threaten someone's ability to walk.
I'm anti it as much as the next guy but if you could cripple anyone who called you a fag (true or false) it would not go well.
Now if he is gay and wants to come out I'd hope that the league and co would in theory protect him. But if he is gay (which is still an if) then he has a horrible worst of both worlds where he gets the insults and none of the protection.
You'd like to think that the league would protect against gay slurs but they don't and won't until they are forced to. I feel bad if he's gay, but if it's such an open secret what's the issue?
I'm anti it as much as the next guy but if you could cripple anyone who called you a fag (true or false) it would not go well.
Now if he is gay and wants to come out I'd hope that the league and co would in theory protect him. But if he is gay (which is still an if) then he has a horrible worst of both worlds where he gets the insults and none of the protection.
You'd like to think that the league would protect against gay slurs but they don't and won't until they are forced to. I feel bad if he's gay, but if it's such an open secret what's the issue?
