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OBJ traded to Cleveland

Discussion in 'Blinded by the Lombardis: Patriots Forum' started by RedOctober3829, Mar 12, 2019.

  1. RedOctober3829

    RedOctober3829 Member SoSH Member

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    Peter puts it into perspective in just how bad the Giants are



    Giants have 1 of 21 prime picks from 2010 through 2016 drafts (1st, 2d or 3d-rd picks) left on the roster. They are, in effect, an expansion franchise with a very good RB, no defensive stars and a 38-yr-old QB.
     
  2. kelpapa

    kelpapa Member SoSH Member

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    2,498
    Hey that's not completely true. Solder was a prime pick.
     
  3. Montana Fan

    Montana Fan Well-Known Member Silver Supporter SoSH Member

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    Yep, I figure they’re tanking for a QB this year and are going to rebuild it from the line out.
     
  4. BigSoxFan

    BigSoxFan Member SoSH Member

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    Kind of a weird stat given NFL’s turnover rate. Pats only have like 5 of 27 ‘prime’ picks remaining from that timeframe, if my math is right.

    Gronk
    McCourty
    Harmon
    Thuney
    Hightower
     
  5. Sox and Rocks

    Sox and Rocks Member SoSH Member

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    Absolutely. This makes the Raiders trade for Brown a steal.
     
  6. Sox and Rocks

    Sox and Rocks Member SoSH Member

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    If they're smart, they play the worst QB they can and draft best player available at each pick this year, thus effectively tank for Tua, Herbert, or Lawrence next year.

    But they're not smart.
     
  7. RedOctober3829

    RedOctober3829 Member SoSH Member

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    So what happened? How did everything go so wrong that the Giants were willing to ship Beckham away less than seven months after giving him a five-year, $90 million contract?

    "He had become too much of a pain in the ass," said one source familiar with the situation. "And there was a real fear that eventually it would get worse."

    But off the field they had grown tired of dealing with his headaches, and as Gettleman explained to reporters at the NFL scouting combine two weeks ago, "part of the responsibility of a general manager is to eliminate distractions." Beckham had become a lightning rod in New York, and no matter how the Giants tried to manage him, they couldn't keep him out of the spotlight.

    Also, they did not feel he was truly happy playing in New York and for a Giants franchise that was struggling, one source said. And after seeing the way Antonio Brown forced his way out of Pittsburgh over the last few months, there was a worry that in a year or two - especially if the Giants and their quarterback continued to struggle -- Beckham could go that route, too.

    So they listened to offers on and off for the last year, hoping to get something close to two first-round picks in return, multiple sources said. The Browns only had one to offer, but when they were willing to throw in Peppers - a player the Giants loved in the 2017 draft - Gettleman convinced everyone it was time to move.

    https://www.sny.tv/giants/news/odel...ed-to-deal-pain-in-the-ass-receiver/305138080
     
  8. BigSoxFan

    BigSoxFan Member SoSH Member

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    Lawrence isn’t eligible until 2021 draft
     
  9. Papelbon's Poutine

    Papelbon's Poutine Homeland Security SoSH Member

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    Fair point but in hindsight, would you rather have him or Darnold/Allen/Rosen? Because those three don’t look particularly awe inspiring. I questioned it the same at the time but I think they got the best player they could. They can trade him if they go full reboot.
     
  10. SMU_Sox

    SMU_Sox loves his fluffykins SoSH Member

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    After one year?

    Rosen sucked because the situation and coaching around him was atrocious. Oh, and he’s a rookie QB.
    You want to know why Darnold wasn’t very good? His situation and coaching wasn’t very good. Look I had a 2 on him and he had his issues but damn, you’re ice cold PP. ;)
    Allen actually surprised me a bit but he also had little to work with although I think the Buffalo coaching staff is v good.

    I’m not saying it was a bad pick I am saying it’s not a great question to ask especially given context (situations and help), and circumstance (these are rookie QBs).

    I’d rather have Saquon > Allen but that would have been it.
     
  11. Marciano490

    Marciano490 Urological Expert SoSH Member

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    33,109
    Hut one, hut two, hut three, hut.
     
  12. dcmissle

    dcmissle Deflatigator Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    This rings true in every respect, including AB being the cherry on the sundae.

    The Giants’ story isn’t that complicated. Camp Eli waged a counter-attack and retook the hill. Last year was about putting Humpty Manning back together again and propping him up with weapons. It explains the draft. It explains the OBJ extension.

    Two big mistakes. Don’t double down on an aging, iconic player who has lost his fastball, even if he is “royalty.” Don’t think for a minute that you can rehabilitate a problem child with money.

    With that behind them, Gettleman played it well. He did not torch his star receiver in a season ending press conference. He did not stick him on the front lawn with a huge for sale sign around his neck. And he did not announce an unconditional auction by a date certain.

    Both teams took cap hits, but the Giants got good value and the Steelers did not. And AB for next two or three years anyway will probably remain the better receiver.
     
  13. RedOctober3829

    RedOctober3829 Member SoSH Member

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    I'd rather have Rosen or Darnold than Barkley. Why does a team who is rebuilding need to spend the #2 pick on a RB? It made no sense then and it makes no sense now.
     
  14. Super Nomario

    Super Nomario Member SoSH Member

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    I don't think they thought they were rebuilding last offseason. People fooled themselves that their one good year in the last five was the real team and that firing McAdoo would make all their problems go away. It didn't, and they're rebuilding now.
     
  15. dcmissle

    dcmissle Deflatigator Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Reese degraded the team personnelwise; Coughlin abided the shit culture.

    They were headed to a tear down and rebuild, but Camp Eli reasserted itself. Let’s prop up the king. McAdoo fiasco provided the opening.

    News flash — Philly is really well run and Dallas more sensibly run. Team as now constructed belongs on the island of misfit toys, neither here nor there. Good luck.
     
  16. koufax32

    koufax32 He'll cry if he wants to... SoSH Member

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    If I was a GM who’s job was to start over I’d much prefer SB to any of those QB’s. You’re team is going to be bad so you’ll get a high draft pick. Additionally, what do you think SB could net you in draft picks? Could you get a couple 1sts and some extra lower picks for him right now?

    Now, in the real world that probably wouldn’t fly as the fan base would show up with torches and pitchforks.
     
  17. ConigliarosPotential

    ConigliarosPotential Well-Known Member Silver Supporter SoSH Member

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    4,488
    There's no way any running back is - or should be - worth multiple first-round draft picks. If Gettleman managed to sucker another GM into paying that price, he should absolutely jump at it and flatline the franchise for a year, NBA-style.
     
  18. Jed Zeppelin

    Jed Zeppelin Member SoSH Member

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    The Vernon signing was one of the first major red flags. Biggest DE contract in history. Followed soon after by the biggest OL contract in history for a 30 year old. The previous (successful) version of the team was mostly homegrown and built on drafting defensive studs the way the Cowboys have built with beastly OL drafts or the Steelers with the skill positions. They have pivoted to prioritize offense in the draft but just haven't had the same success as the teams that were built on the defensive drafts from around '05-'11.

    2012: R1 David Wilson, R2 Reuben Randle
    2013: R1 Justin Pugh OT
    2014: R1 Odell, R2 Richburg C
    2015: R1 Flowers OT (R2 Collins)
    2016: R1 Eli Apple (only R1 defensive player in this run), R2 Shepard
    2017: R1 Engram
    2018: R1 Saquon, R2 Hernandez OG

    That's a ton of early draft capital to spend on offense for a team that just this year broke a streak of 30+ games without cracking 30 points. Every single player on the above list pre-Shepard is now playing elsewhere (or not at all), and it's not like they made up for it with later round studs.
     
    #68 Jed Zeppelin, Mar 13, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2019
  19. Super Nomario

    Super Nomario Member SoSH Member

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    I might be the only Dave Gettleman defender, but I liked how he built the Panthers and I like what he's doing this offseason. They are currently about $100 MM under the cap for 2020 after getting rid of OBJ and Vernon. They picked up what looks like four starters in the 2018 draft (Barkley, Will Hernandez, BJ Hill, and Lorenzo Carter). They added two more starters in Zeitler and Peppers. They have 11 picks in the upcoming draft, including two firsts. Star talent is way worse but they are deeper and younger. They are setting up for the future. It's what they should have done last offseason, but better late than never.
     
  20. dcmissle

    dcmissle Deflatigator Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Fair points, and he was proven right on Josh Norman in the end. But he has to find a QB and move fast. You're likely looking at "21 before they can compete strongly for the division. That's the last year for the 2018 draft class except Barkley.
     
  21. RedOctober3829

    RedOctober3829 Member SoSH Member

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    That's my whole problem with the Gettelman regime. They totally misread what their direction was supposed to be. He's trying to fix it now, but he's left himself a whole year behind where he should be. He should have drafted a QB last year but if he didn't like any of the QB's last year in the draft, he should have made a trade with the Jets to move down from 2 to 6 and netted more picks. The worst thing he could have done is take Saquon Barkley at 2. Barkley's value is as high as it can get right now because he's outperforming his rookie contract. By the time the Giants have a chance to be good again, it will probably be time to pay him big money. He also has exhibited no plan when it comes to replacing Eli. They didn't deal any top QB worthy in last year's draft and Kyle Lauletta is a project. Alex Tanney isn't the answer. Is their plan to completely tank this season and try to get the #1 pick to draft Tua? Tank 2 years and try for Trevor Lawrence? Are they going to pray that any of Russell Wilson, Jared Goff, Carson Wentz, or Marcus Mariota become a free agent next year when they have almost $100 million in cap space? It doesn't matter what else they do if they don't have a QB.
     
  22. Vegas Sox Fan

    Vegas Sox Fan Member SoSH Member

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    1,250
    Shame on you.
     
  23. DennyDoyle'sBoil

    DennyDoyle'sBoil Found no thrill on Blueberry Hill SoSH Member

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    Gettelman is getting caught in the switches, no doubt. And I'm not really going to argue that the Browns didn't get a very good deal. But the fact that maybe they should have done something different a year ago is not an argument for whether they should have done something now. You can't let the past trap you like that. What's done is done.

    All the "grades" I'm seeing about this trade seem lopsided. For example, I think Peppers was a really good get for the Giants. He's not a super star but to win in the NFL you need players like him. For very little cap money you get a starter for the next two years who can also catch and run in the return game. He's fifth-year option eligible. You get good cheap years from guys like that and they fill needs that you don't need to worry about in two phases of the game. And when he gets his deal in 3 years you probably get a comp pick.

    Again, I'm not arguing for the Giants' side of the deal. But it will be interesting to reassess this thing in 3 to 5 years.
     
  24. maufman

    maufman Anderson Cooper x Mr. Rogers Staff Member Dope Gold Supporter

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    You’re not.

    Trading OBJ signals that Gettleman is in full control of the franchise and ownership has accepted the need to rebuild. Those conditions must not have been in place a year ago — there’s no other explanation for the stark difference between last year’s strategy and this year’s. (Even you were bearish on the QBs in last year’s draft, you trade the pick instead of taking Saquon if you’re rebuilding.)

    Give Gettleman credit for extending OBJ before he had proved his health — that’s why the contract was so tradable. And I think I’d prefer 1st/3rd/Peppers to two 1sts, assuming at least one of those 1sts would have been a year off.
     
  25. tims4wins

    tims4wins PN23's replacement SoSH Member

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    20,262
    Agreed with the above, Mara has to take blame for the offseason following 2017. Maybe he has finally had his come to Jesus moment, and they are wiping the slate clean.
     
  26. Super Nomario

    Super Nomario Member SoSH Member

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    I agree they did a bunch of stupid stuff last year. They totally misread their ability to compete. But now they're doing smart stuff, and they're getting crapped all over because they're not being consistent with the stupid stuff they did last year. Better to be inconsistent than dumb in my view.

    As for QB ... they have the sixth pick now. They can probably get Haskins, maybe Murray, if they like one. If not, they probably won't be very good this year, and thus will be in striking range to do a trade up. It will probably cost them two firsts, but LAR, Philly, Houston, KC, etc. have weathered that penalty fine.
     
  27. RedOctober3829

    RedOctober3829 Member SoSH Member

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    It's already been reported by Ian O'Connor and others that the Giants won't be drafting a QB at #6. Whether that's part of lying season is yet to be seen, but Gettelman also said last year he wasn't drafting a QB and that came true. I just don't get what their plan is at QB. I am willing to bet that they will re-sign Eli after the season because there will not be a better option and the Maras don't want to be seen as a complete laughingstock.
     
  28. Super Nomario

    Super Nomario Member SoSH Member

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    11,781
    They're going to have to draft one high at some point. Maybe it will be this year, maybe next. They'll probably have to trade up to do it. They're better-positioned to get a QB-of-the-future than the Patriots are, because they aren't picking in the 30s. :) But in the meantime, they can fill out the rest of their roster with quality talent.
     
  29. dcmissle

    dcmissle Deflatigator Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    I’d bet on this being Brian Cashman season.

    Eli is a caretaker now. Sorry Francesa. Which is fine for this year. Push this out much and all those guys from the solid 2018 draft class will be hitting FA.
     
  30. RedOctober3829

    RedOctober3829 Member SoSH Member

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    ESPN's Jordan Raanan reported on SportsCenter #Giants will "transition to a Gettleman-preferred run-first attack" post-Odell Beckham. Expect offense to face increase in 8+ man fronts with more 12 personnel due to severe WR shortage.
     
  31. Mugsy's Walk-Off Bunt

    Mugsy's Walk-Off Bunt lurker

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    One of the rumors last year is that the Giants might draft Rosen. Wonder if they would consider trading their 2nd or 3rd for him. Good value, Eli close to retirement...
     
  32. Papelbon's Poutine

    Papelbon's Poutine Homeland Security SoSH Member

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    17,371
    I think you take BPA and those QBs would have been drafting from need. Plus, as noted, they didn't seem to think they were in need of starting to rebuild. Neither of them were overly impressive, so then it's just throwing shit on the wall. We just disagree on preference - I'd rather have the more sure thing. If you continue to suck or go into full rebuild, you'll have a shot at a better QB soon enough. I do agree that RB is kind of fungible, but Barkley is looking like he might be transcendental and I'm not sure that wasn't easy to see.

    Take the sure thing.
     
  33. E5 Yaz

    E5 Yaz Transcends message boarding Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    When they can draft Haskins and use those picks on other areas?
     
  34. Papelbon's Poutine

    Papelbon's Poutine Homeland Security SoSH Member

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    Who's to say he didn't try to? If you're sitting there trying to trade down and no one is giving you enough, do you take a guy you don't like or take BPA?
     
  35. RedOctober3829

    RedOctober3829 Member SoSH Member

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    The Jets traded up to 3 last year. I'd say they would have traded up to 2 given the chance.
     
  36. Super Nomario

    Super Nomario Member SoSH Member

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    Fun fact: in his tenures as GM of Carolina and New York, Gettleman has never traded back.
     
  37. Papelbon's Poutine

    Papelbon's Poutine Homeland Security SoSH Member

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    But why? It was pretty well telegraphed that they were taking Barkley long before draft day. The premium to get them to drop back, for one extra spot and risk losing the guy they wanted - when they obviously weren’t in love with the QBs beyond possibly Mayfield - vs the cost to trade to 3 could have been significant. The Colts, Browns and Broncos all needed a RB. Why take the chance if it’s the guy you like?

    I get your point but it’s kind of like ‘Jesus BB took that guy?! Then?!’ Yeah, because he saw the value and didn’t want to f around.
     
  38. dcmissle

    dcmissle Deflatigator Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Think he’s good, or bad, as a GM, but Gettleman was completely full of shit today on this trade. “Made an offer we couldn’t refuse.” Please.

    His comments about Eli were equally absurd.
     
  39. BigSoxFan

    BigSoxFan Member SoSH Member

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    To his credit, Josh Norman had this guy pegged from Day 1.
     
  40. Michelle34B

    Michelle34B lurker

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    He's talking to the media, talk his comments with a grain of salt. His comments on OBJ sounded to me like he was taking the high now that the trade is official.

    Dave Gettleman knows what a winning football team looks like.
     
  41. Soxy Brown

    Soxy Brown Well-Known Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    Gettleman had some success with Carolina but I don't think he should get any benefit of the doubt here, considering he hasn't shown that he has any idea what he's doing with the Giants.
     
  42. dcmissle

    dcmissle Deflatigator Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    He had to say ... nothing at all. But, I admit, that if I gained control of the operation, finally, and the price for that was taking bullets for the Maras and pretending that what happened last year didn’t happen at all, I’d take those bullets and say foolish things.

    I’ll keep an open mind and judge going forward. But they sit at 6 in the first round, and if they come out of this draft without a QB (via a pick or trade for Rosen), they are likely screwed and it’s on him. The stuff he said today about Eli not being overpaid is preposterous.
     
  43. RedOctober3829

    RedOctober3829 Member SoSH Member

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    Yes, in 1992.
     
  44. Super Nomario

    Super Nomario Member SoSH Member

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    It's not a great QB draft and they're not in control of their destiny here. It won't bother me if they don't take a QB this year. But if they don't, need to figure out a 2020 plan for sure.

    EDIT: today at ITP I wrote about the parallels between what Gettleman is doing this offseason and what Sashi Brown did: http://insidethepylon.com/nfl/2019/03/18/giants-take-page-sashi-brown/
     
  45. Michelle34B

    Michelle34B lurker

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    That's true.

    1987-1993 Buffalo Bills scout
    1994-1997 Denver Broncos scout
    1998 New York Football Giants scout
    1999-2011 New York Football Giants Pro Player Personnel
    2013-2016 Carolina Panthers GM

    He's been a part of 9 teams that made the Super Bowl. (Buffalo 1990,1991, 1992, 1993, Denver 1997, New York Football Giants 1999, 2007, 2011, and Carolina 2015)
     
  46. Michelle34B

    Michelle34B lurker

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    He talks big, but really doesn't say much to the media of value. If they were going to move on from Eli, it would have been before his roster bonus, and they could have spent the cap savings on a free agent. Teddy Bridgewater annd Case Keenum were free agent QB options Shurmur is familiar with, and they didn't pursue either of them along with Nick Foles, Tyrod Taylor, or Ryan Fitzpatrick. Quite honestly I don't think any of those QBs want any part of following Eli if he was cut, and trying to win with the current roster. If they draft Kyler Murray or Dwayne Haskins, both had relatively short careers in College(Murray 29 games in 3 years, Haskins 22 games in 2 years), and would have to sit for a while. I don't think any other QB in the draft would have the expectations of starting early in their rookie year.
     
  47. dcmissle

    dcmissle Deflatigator Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    When his rants were blasted all over ESPN today, all I could think was *we did what we thought was in the best interest of the team*.

    Don’t hype a dead QB, especially with Golden Tate piping in that you’re not far away. Somebody might hold you to it, especially in NY.
     

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