NBA In-Season Tournament 2023 Discussion and Gamethread
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They make it 10-12 and the NBAPA files and appeal and it gets cut in half anyway. It never could have been much more than 5 imo. You have to make it a number that isn't likely to get cut and make the league look bad. Will there be an appeal of 5? Maybe not but 10+ and it's guaranteed.
Fair. I wonder if this is a compromise number that Draymond agreed not to appeal to avoid wasting everyone's time.
Interesting note - if he doesn't appeal, 5 games means he misses games against Chet (2 games) and Wemby. Silver can't be upset about keeping him away from those two.
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One could almost accept Kerr’s coachspeak even though it’s a total dick move to blame Gobert.
But I think we’re expected to accept it — with the understanding that he’s going to deal with the situation behind closed doors.
Does ANYONE think Draymond was pulled into a meeting and told to cut the shit? Do you think Kerr yelled at Dray? Or took a “I’m disappointed” approach?
THAT’S the fucking problem here. Go ahead and cover for your shithead player. But then DEAL with it.
But I think we’re expected to accept it — with the understanding that he’s going to deal with the situation behind closed doors.
Does ANYONE think Draymond was pulled into a meeting and told to cut the shit? Do you think Kerr yelled at Dray? Or took a “I’m disappointed” approach?
THAT’S the fucking problem here. Go ahead and cover for your shithead player. But then DEAL with it.
I hear you, but I think they love it, or at least think it’s good for their team, so why would they ask him to stop?
The league would look good if that happened.
A decade of not modifying his behavior has gone by, and we've only just now gotten to the point where Draymond gets 5 games for dragging someone across the floor by their throat. Ridiculous.
That 2nd to last one, against the Celtics, IIRC, did not even result in a foul on Draymond.My god....he's only "battling for position!"
My favorite was at the end prior to Gobert....that one is straight out of The Naked Gun movie.
The league would look GOOD if their penalty was lowered?? That is a slap in the face in showing who has the actual control. Silver has learned what Stern never did in this regard.
Do you really think less of a commissioner if they have their punishment lowered on appeal? I don't see why anyone cares. At least he would have tried. That's what fans outside of the bay area want to see here -- some recognition that Green has been flipping the league the bird for a long time now.
It's not about what any individual thinks it's about the constant power struggle between the NBA and the NBAPA. It's leverage....why would you want to lose an appeal ever? It's like a judge handing out a sentence that gets effectively appealed every time. Your sentence means less and less as you lose credibility. I won't even get started with the whole Josh Primo thing....or the Miles Bridges. These things are happening due to the PA gaining so much power in the later Stern years.
KAT really taking it on the chin for his lack of involvement:
PatBev: https://youtube.com/shorts/ajFjpVx3taM?si=1xhQaJP09oqJcjBi
Gil Arenas and friends: https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZT8D3AC2f/
PatBev: https://youtube.com/shorts/ajFjpVx3taM?si=1xhQaJP09oqJcjBi
Gil Arenas and friends: https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZT8D3AC2f/
The thing is.. that’s the problem with Draymond at this point in his career… his skills are diminishing so his ‘smart’ move is to try and get the other team’s best player to retaliate or engage.
Other teams need to just send end of bench guys at him… flip the scenario and see what kind of tough guy Draymond is then, where there is no advantage for him/GS.
it’s basically hockey.. he keeps going after the top players or knows that players are taught to protect their teammate.. get guys in there who can get suspended without it hurting the team.
I mean, they show the altercation while talking about it, and Towns is right on the backside of Draymond, yanking at him. Ineffectually, but what do you want him to do, start raining blows on his head? Arm-bar Draymond too, so you got a whole human choking centipede? It's not like he's half a court away pretending he didn't see anything, he's right in it.
There was a recent clip of Draymond barking at Ant telling him how “he’s not tough” and “he’s not going to do anything”…..which of course is 100% projection because Draymond’s not tough and takes advantage of the fact that he knows no one will actually fight him.
It would make me so goddamn happy if Draymond tried his act against a legitimate tough guy and got clocked. Someone like Isaiah Stewart wouldn’t put up with his shit….
I'm pretty confident that Marcus Smart would eat his lunch too, and honestly, I'm surprised we never saw it happen Maybe some western conference fun down the road.
In a sport that suspends people for fighting.. Draymond wants to fight. It’s as simple as that.. but he doesn’t actually want to fight anyone tough and he knows everyone will back down because they actually want to play basketball.
Let’s see Draymond play where there are legit tough guys without refs.. See how long his tough guy act lasts before he got his ass kicked.. he’s just a typical bully.
Yeah, who cares what they have to say? KAT did the right thing, he helped his teammate in a sensible way and then stayed in the game and kicked ass to help his team win.
Yeah, a total clown -- fake macho nonsense. As is the pile-on on Rudy. I don't like the guy either, frankly, and the Covid stunt was beyond stupid. But there's a bullying element here which is just lame as hell.
I don't have access to this whole piece, but was linked to by the Athletic and seems to indicate Rudy was right that Draymond acts out when Curry isn't in the line-up? https://www.tomthefinder.com/p/was-gobert-right-the-cold-hard-data?source=thebounce_newsletter&campaign=8255218
Impossible to get into Green's head, but I guess does feed into the narrative that this is less about him being unbalanced and more a deliberate strategy. Somehow I think it's gotta be both, but god knows.
I don't have access to this whole piece, but was linked to by the Athletic and seems to indicate Rudy was right that Draymond acts out when Curry isn't in the line-up? https://www.tomthefinder.com/p/was-gobert-right-the-cold-hard-data?source=thebounce_newsletter&campaign=8255218
Impossible to get into Green's head, but I guess does feed into the narrative that this is less about him being unbalanced and more a deliberate strategy. Somehow I think it's gotta be both, but god knows.
Been thinking of this lately. It seems like most people he's played with don't like him and opponents don't necessarily either. We know nothing except what the camera shows us but in this age of podcasts we the fan really needs some detailed shenanigans as to why everyone fuckin hates this guy! Lol.
In terms of all the (justifiable) criticism of Kerr's defense of Green, he did call him out pretty directly post suspension after saying the 5 games were deserved:
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/38916769/draymond-green-suspension-deserved-warriors-kerr-says
So much for a coach not being able to criticize his own player.
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/38916769/draymond-green-suspension-deserved-warriors-kerr-says
I am sure these comments will upset people both by going too far and not far enough. That said, its a pretty remarkable statement by Kerr and something a lot of other tenured coaches might not say. He deserves credit for being so blunt.
Yeah, good for Kerr. After 160+ technical fouls, 5 suspensions (one by his own team for what he said about Durant), 1.2 million in fines, 18 ejections, one teammate knocked the fuck out in practice, and God knows how many plays that injured/could have injured an opponent, Steve Kerr is now going to get him the help and assistance he needs so he knows where the line is, and he doesn't cross it again.
Narrator: Draymond will cross the line again within 10 games following his suspension, and Kerr won't say shit unless he gets called to the carpet, like he did after the shit show of a presser he gave last night. If Steve Kerr doesn't catch the heat he caught, he wouldn't have done or said shit today, but folks may feel differently.
I mean, this is literally what Kerr said back in April, after Dray got suspended for stomping on Sabonis:
"He's the ultimate competitor. Everybody knows he's going to occasionally tip over the edge and his emotions get the best of him. That's part of it," Kerr said when asked about Green's past misdemeanours counting against him.
"There's no stopping it. You're not going to be able to put your arm around him and say, 'OK, let's move forward'. It doesn't work that way.
"It's not anything we can control. Draymond is incredibly passionate and competitive and fiery and he's helped us win more championships, I've said it many times – we don't have a single championship without Draymond Green. That's the truth. He crossed the line over the years, but that's part of it. We will go to bat for Draymond."
After the way he blamed Gobert, the various protective comments about Draymond in the past, and the reports that behind the scenes, the Warriors were blaming Gobert, I have a very difficult time accepting Kerr at face value this time.
Steve Kerr is a great coach who is defending his player, a key part of his job.
complimenting him for stating the obvious here—once everyone has already called it out—only highlights how his prior statements enabled awful behavior.
There is literally no person on earth who had more ability to reign in Draymond Green over the years than Steve Kerr. Writers, ex players, teammates…they have opinions. Steve Kerr has had the ability for about a decade to make Draymond play differently to get on the court and instead chose enablement, appeasement, and dishonest advocacy.
So I totally get why he does what he does, and Kerr deserves zero credit and instead a great deal of blame for enabling Green in the name of winning
complimenting him for stating the obvious here—once everyone has already called it out—only highlights how his prior statements enabled awful behavior.
There is literally no person on earth who had more ability to reign in Draymond Green over the years than Steve Kerr. Writers, ex players, teammates…they have opinions. Steve Kerr has had the ability for about a decade to make Draymond play differently to get on the court and instead chose enablement, appeasement, and dishonest advocacy.
So I totally get why he does what he does, and Kerr deserves zero credit and instead a great deal of blame for enabling Green in the name of winning
I believe my post allowed for your world view and I have no problem with it. Kerr has provided plenty of cover for Draymond's actions. I was simply noting that something changed.
I’d argue nothing has changed—Kerr is stating what he believes enables Green returning to court most quickly. Just like always.
I like the guy (Kerr, not Draymond) but you’re imagining morality against a great deal of evidence he’s purely self interested
Agreed. It feels much more like someone read him the riot act, and now he's trying to regain credibility with people who think he's an enabler.
I get it. I don't think Kerr's statements went too far, or didn't go far enough though. I just don't fucking believe a word of it. I think you might be underselling how a guy like Popovich would have responded to the years of shit Draymond has done. I mean Chuck Daly, the ultimate enabler of that stuff, probably would have never said what Kerr said yesterday, but I have a hard time buying that Kerr isn't alone on this island.
Don't get me wrong, I want coaches to stand up for their players, but don't fucking gaslight us and tell us we didn't see what we saw, like he did last night, and Kerr has been doing that a long time.
Heh, I had only read @DeJesus Built My Hotrod post when I responded and just realized I was like the 4th person in a row to use the word enabler to describe Kerr.
I think the following quote is remarkably blunt.
You do not - again I am not here to sell anyone on my take. I don't find Kerr as odious as you for defending his player but I cannot deny he has also tolerated Draymond's antics. I have seen enough of Kerr that in my opinion, he is sending a message here that Draymond's cheap-shots/MMA moves won't be tolerated anymore. The thing we all don't know is the extent to which Kerr has already tried to do this privately - which would make all sorts of sense. Draymond is a clearly a tough personality but he is also attached to the team's biggest star. As long as that's the case, there are probably limits to what Kerr/the team can do aside from parting ways. But that would almost certainly anger Steph or else it might have happened already.
Edit: You want an enabler in this sordid tale? Look no further than Wardell Stephen Curry.
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Arenas is the fucking worst.
I attempted to listen to a clip of his podcast wheee he was talking about Poole/Draymond and I couldn’t get through a minute of it.
He thinks he’s hilarious (he’s not) and he thinks he’s a great storyteller (he’s not). He’s really just a massive jackass who makes his living off of being a troll
I guess that's my problem with that quote, because it comes on the heels of this quote 7 months ago when he stomped on the chest of a guy on the ground in the playoffs and got suspended ""It's not anything we can control. .....That's the truth. He crossed the line over the years, but that's part of it. We will go to bat for Draymond."
I find the "that's the truth" part pretty blunt, but in that quote, the truth is he can't control him, he won't control him, and he'll continue going to bat for him.
Maybe this is the time that Kerr is going to try to control him. Seems like he hasn't even tried in the past. It sure as hell isn't the first physical act of violence or inexcusable thing Draymond did.
I have no idea the relative enabling of Curry and Kerr; I don’t get the theory that Curry’s advocacy can exonerate Kerr though, unless you think Kerr is a figurehead with zero real power or control over team…which I do not believe
This. I don't buy things will change for a second. Draymond will change when he's out of the league. Maybe Kerr's perception changed after watching his actions the other night, but as others have said he won't do anything real about it. The League itself has to be the one to take action. And they won't do anything real unless he seriously injures a star player, Kermit Washingtons someone, or jumps into the stands.
I wonder if in addition to the suspension the league sent a message that the next one will be a lot longer if his behavior continues. That would explain Kerr’s change in tone.
yes, this is why I alluded earlier to the Green criticism in the PC being consistent about Kerr seeking to keep Draymond on court---my guess is precisely that the league said "5 now, next one is 25" or something like that. And if it results in Green not doing this again a) that's good for the nba and b) it proves that Kerr could have done something a lot sooner. If that's all true and Draymond does it again in Jan, that would suggest Kerr simply can't impact it much instead
We'll see---I am unsure how much of this is intentional with Draymond and how much is anger management issues....it's probably some of both.
At some point with Draymond, someone needs to put him on his ass hard. It’ll be a bad look for the league that week but hopefully would cause him to cut his BS act which would be long term better.
The Richie Incognito type of athlete that as the skills slip a little resorts to more cheap, dangerous play doesn’t have a place in professional sports and all the talking and soft skill management in the world doesn’t work.
The Richie Incognito type of athlete that as the skills slip a little resorts to more cheap, dangerous play doesn’t have a place in professional sports and all the talking and soft skill management in the world doesn’t work.
I claim no inside knowledge of how things work with the Warriors but I live in market. My sense is that the main reason the Warriors haven't moved on from Draymond is his relationship/production with Steph. I don't get the sense they have ever loved his over the line behavior but perhaps its wrong.
I am a bit surprised that this seems out there - IMO Steph is clearly the most powerful person in that organization outside of ownership. Do you really think Kerr has more than or even an equal say as him?
Maybe Kerr is an enabler but to me Draymond's cover is coming straight from his long time teammate. If Steph wasn't willing to put up with it, I think Draymond would be disappeared pretty fast.
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I don't really think someone punching out Draymond would really change anything.
To me, Draymond's issue is he is an overly emotional player. That emotion has allowed him to get every morsel of production out of his talent and athleticism, which is why people like Kerr are never going to discourage him from tapping into that. It's all worked out for him, he's gotten paid, he's won championships, he is probably going to the Hall of Fame because he plays with that kind of intensity and emotion. He's never going to tone it down.
The problem is that emotion often spills over with any provocation and the results can threaten player safety. He thinks Domantas Sabonis might be hooking his ankle on the floor? Time to stomp him in the chest! Rudy Gobert is pushing Klay Thompson? Time to put him in a choke hold! He can't control himself, and frankly, there has been little incentive for him to control himself over the years. The league has never seriously cracked down on him and his coaches and teammates continue to defend and embrace him because they know him playing with that kind of emotion has been beneficial to the team, even though he has gotten himself suspended for playoff games and arguably cost his team a title because he decided to sack-tap LeBron.
To me, Draymond's issue is he is an overly emotional player. That emotion has allowed him to get every morsel of production out of his talent and athleticism, which is why people like Kerr are never going to discourage him from tapping into that. It's all worked out for him, he's gotten paid, he's won championships, he is probably going to the Hall of Fame because he plays with that kind of intensity and emotion. He's never going to tone it down.
The problem is that emotion often spills over with any provocation and the results can threaten player safety. He thinks Domantas Sabonis might be hooking his ankle on the floor? Time to stomp him in the chest! Rudy Gobert is pushing Klay Thompson? Time to put him in a choke hold! He can't control himself, and frankly, there has been little incentive for him to control himself over the years. The league has never seriously cracked down on him and his coaches and teammates continue to defend and embrace him because they know him playing with that kind of emotion has been beneficial to the team, even though he has gotten himself suspended for playoff games and arguably cost his team a title because he decided to sack-tap LeBron.
I don't think Draymond would learn the right lesson from this. He'd just use it as a reason to act out again, and to support his argument that it's not just him and that others cross the line too.
Hot take alert: was anybody else struck by this part of Kerr's comments in particular?
This struck me as tossing a weird element into the conversation. Is Kerr implying some sort of therapy is needed here?. Does the coach has deeper concerns about Draymond's mental health?
Or maybe this kind of rhetoric has become reflexive when these kinds of episodes emerge -- something people expect to hear.
Or maybe Kerr is suggesting (in a subtle way) that Draymond is some sort of victim here?
Might be a nothingburger. To me, it sounded like a vague and vaguely insidious thing to add.
[emphasis added]
This struck me as tossing a weird element into the conversation. Is Kerr implying some sort of therapy is needed here?. Does the coach has deeper concerns about Draymond's mental health?
Or maybe this kind of rhetoric has become reflexive when these kinds of episodes emerge -- something people expect to hear.
Or maybe Kerr is suggesting (in a subtle way) that Draymond is some sort of victim here?
Might be a nothingburger. To me, it sounded like a vague and vaguely insidious thing to add.
Disagree with this wholeheartedly.
Draymond 100% runs on emotion. I agree with that. He’s also a bully and the outbursts of emotion turn to physical acts because he knows that there will be no comeuppance from it.
You don’t think the Gobert choke was done specifically because it was Rudy? I mean, most people think that he’s been waiting to do that because he doesn’t like Rudy and he knew that no one would stop him.
I see a guy who is emotional, a bully and constantly trying to see what he can get away with or what line in the sand he can cross. If someone clocked him, I can almost guarantee the stomping and choking would end (same with the laying his feet on people and all of the other bullshit he tries)