MLB is Lonnnng Overdue for Expansion

8slim

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A couple years ago my daughter bought me this wall art at a flea market. It’s a map of MLB as it existed in 1987. It hangs in my basement across from my treadmill, so I stare at it every day as my iFit workout is trying to kill me.

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I find it remarkable how relatively little has changed for MLB geographically in the 36 years since this map was made. The Expos moved to DC and four new teams were added. The most recent expansion happened 25 years ago. MLB hasn’t had this kind of franchise stasis since before WWII.

By all population and demographic metrics, MLB is long past the point of warranting expansion. Perhaps dramatic expansion.

Looking at the total population of the U.S. going back to 1950, MLB has averaged 1 franchise for every 9.7 million people. That average reached 11.0 million per the 16 teams of 1960, and then MLB expanded to 18 in 1961, and 20 in 1962. That knocked the per-team average down to 9.1 million.

The league expanded to 24 teams in 1969, sending the average from 9.8 million to 8.2 million.

When the league last expanded, reaching 30 teams in 1998, the per-franchise population average was 9.2 million. 25 years later that number now sits at 11.3 million, an all-time high. In fact, the past 17 years have seen the per team average exceed 10 million. The only other time that occurred was for six years (1955-1960) which preceded the 4 team expansion of 1961-62.

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Of course, this analysis is only taking into account US population trends, as it relates to potential fan base size per team. The other element is the size of the player pool. Needless to say, the amount of non-U.S. born players has grown considerably in the past few decades.

28% of 2023 opening day rostered players were born outside the U.S. While that rate has been relatively stable for the past 10 years, it’s up roughly 10 points from baseball’s last expansion in 1998. I know we talk a lot here about a dearth of MLB pitchers, but the reality is that there has likely never been a larger global player pool from which MLB teams can source talent.

Given that worldwide player availability, and the current rate of population growth, MLB would need to expand to 36 teams if it were to match the 9.7 million/franchise average of the past 73 years.

So, where to place new MLB teams? The league uses Nielsen’s Designated Market Area data to determine regional TV territories. Those DMAs dictate protected areas for regional cable sports networks, direct-to-consumer streaming services, blackouts, etc.

MLB has teams in each of the top 16 U.S. DMAs:

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However, MLB’s coverage of markets 17-40 is scattershot. Some historic markets -- such as St. Louis, Pittsburgh, Baltimore, San Diego, Kansas City, Cincinnati and Milwaukee – are smaller, sometimes much smaller, than markets without franchises. Sacramento, Charlotte, Portland, Raleigh-Durham, Indianapolis, Nashville and Salt Lake City, among others, are all larger markets than ones with existing teams. And I didn’t include non-U.S. markets such as Montreal and Mexico City.

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Last but not least, over the years MLB has morphed into largely being a regional sport. Not that it doesn’t have a national fan base – that exists right here on SoSH, of course. But all the fan data I’ve seen for quite some time now suggests that people are most-driven by their fandom of their favorite team, and there is far less cross-team interest than there is for the NFL and NBA.

This dynamic strikes me as yet another reason why MLB needs expansion. Attracting more people by offering a local team to follow would seem beneficial to the long-term health of the league.

What say you? Agree? Disagree? In favor adding 2 teams? Six? Counter the data and advocate contraction?
 

CaptainLaddie

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It would never happen, but I'd put another team LA and NY, Charlotte, Austin, Portland, and Nashville. That's 6. Go back to 4 divisions since there's not really much of a difference between the AL and NL. That's 36 teams. 9 teams per division. Top 4 teams get into the playoffs.

Then, in each division, there's a 3 game series. The 1 and 2 seeds get all 3 games at home. 5 game series between those winners, 2-2-1. 7 game series between the AL and NL division winners, 2-3-2. Then World Series, 2-3-2 again.
 

Awesome Fossum

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I guess I wonder if the last four teams added have been beneficial to the long-term health of the league. How would we support that?

Regional sports networks are crumbling, no? Seems like the national fanbase eroding is a problem to attack, not something to lean into.
 

The Talented Allen Ripley

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I agree with @8slim 's analysis, and I think the only thing holding up expansion to this point as been that MLB was waiting to see what happened with Oakland's and Tampa Bay's stadium situations, which would have a ripple effect on any expansion plans. Both of those seem relatively settled at this point, so I think this will move forward.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Nothing to add to the discussion right now as I want to give expansion a bit more thought. Just wanted to say that poster hung in my childhood bedroom until my parents sold the house 10 years ago. Now it's in the back of a closet in my house because I didn't want to get rid of it. So seeing it here this morning put a smile on my face.
 

Humphrey

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Aug 3, 2010
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32 seems like a nice number. 8 divisions of 4, the 8 division winners and 4 wildcards make the playoffs (God forbid they go to 16 teams, but I guess that's a possibility).

Adding more than 2 teams would dramatically dilute the pitching; most expansions have spiked up the offense for a couple years. 69 might have been the most dramatic of those (combined w/some rule changes).

I very much like the current schedule with the 3 game series against the NL teams home-and-home in alternate years; plus the home-and-home against a team's (sometimes true, more than sometimes bogus) arch-rival. That would be 49 games.

I wouldn't cut the intra-division games; so that's 39 more, up to 88.

So, 74 games against the other 12 teams in one's league. 6 each for 72 and if one insists on having 162 games, then an extra game against two teams.

Whatever teams they add, they better make sure they're unquestionably viable financially. More low budget teams does not grow the game!
 
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LogansDad

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It would never happen, but I'd put another team LA and NY, Charlotte, Austin, Portland, and Nashville. That's 6. Go back to 4 divisions since there's not really much of a difference between the AL and NL. That's 36 teams. 9 teams per division. Top 4 teams get into the playoffs.

Then, in each division, there's a 3 game series. The 1 and 2 seeds get all 3 games at home. 5 game series between those winners, 2-2-1. 7 game series between the AL and NL division winners, 2-3-2. Then World Series, 2-3-2 again.
I would vote for you for President.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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Living in Austin, it's pretty crazy that the Austin-San Antonio corridor doesn't have a MLB team. I'd like to another Canadian franchise or two (Montreal and Yellowknife make the most sense... or maybe Vancouver instead?).
Las Vegas and another from any of Chicago, NY/Newark area, greater LA area could all support additional teams without hurting the existing regional team. Also... Colorado team needs to move. Tampa too.
 

Max Power

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I can see some arguments against it.

The last expansion group was the Rays, Diamondbacks, Rockies, and Marlins. The Rockies have been the only team that's been particularly successful in attendance and they've been the worst performers on field, so it's not like fans are just staying away from losing teams. Would new markets be any more successful than the last four?

Expanding another 150 roster spots means we're going to have many, many players who are worse than the worst ones in the game now. I guess you could do more international scouting and poaching, but we don't want to be killing leagues around the world just to cram a few more teams in MLB.

Having 36 teams means it's very likely that there will be fans who will never see their team win the World Series in their lifetime. The 108 years the Cubs went aren't particularly unlikely when only 1 in 36 wins. Would that hurt interest overall? You'd need to make league championships seem like a much bigger deal than they are now. It really is a big deal to win the AL pennant, but nobody seems happy unless they win the trophy. That attitude would have to change.
 

IdiotKicker

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It would never happen, but I'd put another team LA and NY, Charlotte, Austin, Portland, and Nashville. That's 6. Go back to 4 divisions since there's not really much of a difference between the AL and NL. That's 36 teams. 9 teams per division. Top 4 teams get into the playoffs.

Then, in each division, there's a 3 game series. The 1 and 2 seeds get all 3 games at home. 5 game series between those winners, 2-2-1. 7 game series between the AL and NL division winners, 2-3-2. Then World Series, 2-3-2 again.
This sounds fantastic. Sign me up.
 

CaptainLaddie

dj paul pfieffer
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Living in Austin, it's pretty crazy that the Austin-San Antonio corridor doesn't have a MLB team. I'd like to another Canadian franchise or two (Montreal and Yellowknife make the most sense... or maybe Vancouver instead?).
Las Vegas and another from any of Chicago, NY/Newark area, greater LA area could all support additional teams without hurting the existing regional team. Also... Colorado team needs to move. Tampa too.
Wait, YELLOWKNIFE? It's population 20k people. The average high temp in October is 34F, and the average low is 24F. I can't imagine you meant Yellowknife. Edmonton? Vancouver makes more sense than Montreal, frankly considering the temperate climate. Calgary? But Yellowknife can't possibly be what you meant, no?
 

Rovin Romine

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It would never happen, but I'd put another team LA and NY, Charlotte, Austin, Portland, and Nashville. That's 6. Go back to 4 divisions since there's not really much of a difference between the AL and NL. That's 36 teams. 9 teams per division. Top 4 teams get into the playoffs.

Then, in each division, there's a 3 game series. The 1 and 2 seeds get all 3 games at home. 5 game series between those winners, 2-2-1. 7 game series between the AL and NL division winners, 2-3-2. Then World Series, 2-3-2 again.
You could swap out Orlando, Montreal, or Mexico City for the NY/LA teams. I think NC is very ripe for a team in Charlotte or the Triangle.

My only reservation is that a too-rapid expansion will really dilute the talent base. Unless those new owners are committed to spending money, you could just add a group of bottom-dwelling teams. And my first inclination is that I'm not sure that's great for the game (could be persuaded otherwise though.)
 

8slim

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I guess I wonder if the last four teams added have been beneficial to the long-term health of the league. How would we support that?

Regional sports networks are crumbling, no? Seems like the national fanbase eroding is a problem to attack, not something to lean into.
These are great questions. A couple thoughts...

Regarding the 90s expansion, I think it's tough to assess the benefits because of how awful Florida expansion has gone. It really has been a 25 year case study in what not to do. Lousy stadiums in lousy locations with lousy ownership. MLB had to go into Florida, but they've done it in pretty much the worst way possible. Colorado, and to a lesser extent Arizona, have been successes IMHO.

Regarding national vs. regional, my perspective is that MLB should lean into what they are rather than fight a likely losing battle for what they're not. Yes the RSNs business model is crumbling, but that is being replaced by a hybrid broadcast TV/DTC streaming model. Any sport with 162 games needs local media outlets.
 

Jimy Hendrix

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Having 36 teams means it's very likely that there will be fans who will never see their team win the World Series in their lifetime. The 108 years the Cubs went aren't particularly unlikely when only 1 in 36 wins. Would that hurt interest overall? You'd need to make league championships seem like a much bigger deal than they are now. It really is a big deal to win the AL pennant, but nobody seems happy unless they win the trophy. That attitude would have to change.
Going by at least the anecdotal evidence of the two franchises I can think of that this happened the most to, being romantically star-crossed for about a century does more to drive fan interest than kill it. If a team straight up sucks for your entire life, that's one thing, but a team that comes tantalizingly close a few times but doesn't quite get over the hill is a pretty good way to breed maniacs, with this website being a good example of that fact.
 

8slim

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You could swap out Orlando, Montreal, or Mexico City for the NY/LA teams. I think NC is very ripe for a team in Charlotte or the Triangle.

My only reservation is that a too-rapid expansion will really dilute the talent base. Unless those new owners are committed to spending money, you could just add a group of bottom-dwelling teams. And my first inclination is that I'm not sure that's great for the game (could be persuaded otherwise though.)
Admittedly my player pool data was the weakest I shared. One thought is that I believe historically expansion leads to more offense (at least in the short term). I'd imagine MLB wouldn't be upset if that occured with a new round(s) of expansion. As great as the pitch clock worked, the game still needs an increase in balls-in-play action. Expansion could be a shortcut to get there.

Totally agree about finding owners with a real commitment to investment in winning, though. That's crucial.
 

jcd0805

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Living in Austin, it's pretty crazy that the Austin-San Antonio corridor doesn't have a MLB team. I'd like to another Canadian franchise or two (Montreal and Yellowknife make the most sense... or maybe Vancouver instead?).
Las Vegas and another from any of Chicago, NY/Newark area, greater LA area could all support additional teams without hurting the existing regional team. Also... Colorado team needs to move. Tampa too.
Why does Colorado need to move? Their attendance is pretty good even though they're not, why punish them?
 

CaptainLaddie

dj paul pfieffer
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Sep 6, 2004
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These are great questions. A couple thoughts...

Regarding the 90s expansion, I think it's tough to assess the benefits because of how awful Florida expansion has gone. It really has been a 25 year case study in what not to do. Lousy stadiums in lousy locations with lousy ownership. MLB had to go into Florida, but they've done it in pretty much the worst way possible. Colorado, and to a lesser extent Arizona, have been successes IMHO.

Regarding national vs. regional, my perspective is that MLB should lean into what they are rather than fight a likely losing battle for what they're not. Yes the RSNs business model is crumbling, but that is being replaced by a hybrid broadcast TV/DTC streaming model. Any sport with 162 games needs local media outlets.
Agreed. 40-42,000 person stadiums that feel intimate is a big start. These 55k behemoths never fill up except maybe in the playoffs. I understand that cities will want the megastadium to use for concerts or political conventions or whatever, but that's not realistic for 81 nights a year in a new market in 2023. It would never happen, but some of these new stadiums should honestly be capped at something like 35k.
 

Rovin Romine

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Regarding the 90s expansion, I think it's tough to assess the benefits because of how awful Florida expansion has gone. It really has been a 25 year case study in what not to do. Lousy stadiums in lousy locations with lousy ownership. MLB had to go into Florida, but they've done it in pretty much the worst way possible.
Well, FWIW, the current Miami stadium is pretty great. It's just in an area that's not easily accessible for a huge chunk of fans. (Partially because the traffic congestion is outrageous generally.)

People bitch about the Trop (and rightly so) but the area it's in is pretty great. It's just not super convenient to a huge chunk of Tampa itself.

IMO, future stadiums should be paid for by the teams not the municipalities. . .but really some thought should be given by the states/cities to providing the infrastructure that allows stadium access - be that light rail or highway off-ramps and parking schemes that make the logistics of attending a game a second-thought, instead of a first one.

Admittedly my player pool data was the weakest I shared. One thought is that I believe historically expansion leads to more offense (at least in the short term). I'd imagine MLB wouldn't be upset if that occured with a new round(s) of expansion. As great as the pitch clock worked, the game still needs an increase in balls-in-play action. Expansion could be a shortcut to get there.
I think that if MiL player salaries were raised, and ML did their expansion over time, the population generally could support the expansion without diluting the talent. You'd get a corresponding feeder wave. But an overnight 6 team expansion (not that it would happen) would pull a lot of talent from existing clubs and their MiL systems. I mean, I'm theoretically OK with that, but it would be very noticeable, I think.

The 97 expansion draft: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_Major_League_Baseball_expansion_draft
 

SoxJox

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My only thought is that expansion implies additional bodies to fill out major and minor league rosters. IIRC, I think there has been discussion on this board that there has been a dramatic drop in youth participation at the entry level, which then carries forward through the higher-aged leagues, high school, and college. I think a net outcome of that is a lesser pool of talent. In the end, possibly power quality baseball at the major league level.

The other factor is interest in the game itself, which certainly has been addressed in SOSH's pages. MLB attendance hit a 37-year low in 2021. TV viewership dropped 12 per cent in 2019 and the trend continues.

Even the World Series has been affected. The 2021 World Series between the Braves and the Astros drew an average viewership of 11.7 million people. Compare that to the 2021Super Bowl, which logged 96.4 million viewers.

Certainly some of the recent rule changes have been intended to improve viewership and attendance, but by how much? Not enough data in to reach a definitive conclusion.
 

singaporesoxfan

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I agree with the initial analysis that, but I would add that besides DMAs, another way to judge where teams should expand is looking at Combined Statistical Areas or Metropolitan Statistical Areas - that gives a better sense of what the true potential fan base is. (e.g. only considering the Boston-Manchester DMA excludes the Providence-New Bedford, Springfield-Holyoke, Bangor, and other New England DMAs as markets for the Sox, and I think most people on this board would absolutely say those are Red Sox fanbase areas). Not saying census areas are superior to DMAs as a means of estimating markets, only that both should be looked at. I copied Wikipedia's list of the top 40 MSAs and added which teams are in each MSA and added where Montreal compares, plus a couple of notes about the CSAs.

Looking at the biggest MSAs missing a team, you see Inland Empire (which I think is so geographically proximate and culturally linked to LA / SoCal that it probably doesn't really merit another team), then Montreal (4m people), Orlando (2.8m), and Charlotte (2.8m). Charlotte is additionally intriguing because the #41 MSA is Raleigh-Durham, at 1.48 million people, and the whole Carolinas / Tennessee / southern Virginia area seems underserved by baseball, so there could definitely be a market for a Carolina-based team. I'd probably be in favour of adding 2 teams, specifically Montreal and a Carolina one.

Edit: I don't know why the formatting didn't work out, it looked fine before I posted. But you get the idea...

Rank Metropolitan statistical area 2022 estimate 2020 census Teams Encompassing combined statistical area
1​
New York–Newark–Jersey City, NY-NJ MSA 19,557,311 20,081,935 Mets Yankees New York–Newark, NY-NJ-CT-PA CSA
2​
Los Angeles–Long Beach–Anaheim, CA MSA 12,872,322 13,200,998 Angels Dodgers Los Angeles–Long Beach, CA CSA
3​
Chicago–Naperville–Elgin, IL-IN MSA 9,274,140 9,449,351 Cubs White Sox Chicago–Naperville, IL-IN-WI CSA
4​
Dallas–Fort Worth–Arlington, TX MSA 7,943,685 7,637,387 Rangers Dallas–Fort Worth, TX-OK CSA
5​
Houston–Pasadena–The Woodlands, TX MSA 7,368,466 7,149,642 Astros Houston–Pasadena, TX CSA
6​
Washington–Arlington–Alexandria, DC-VA-MD-WV MSA 6,265,183 6,278,542 Nationals Washington–Baltimore–Arlington, DC-MD-VA-WV-PA CSA
7​
Philadelphia–Camden–Wilmington, PA-NJ-DE-MD MSA 6,241,164 6,245,051 Phillies Philadelphia–Reading–Camden, PA-NJ-DE-MD CSA
8​
Atlanta–Sandy Springs–Roswell, GA MSA 6,237,435 6,104,803 Braves Atlanta–Athens-Clarke County–Sandy Springs, GA-AL CSA
9​
Miami–Fort Lauderdale–West Palm Beach, FL MSA 6,139,340 6,138,333 Marlins Miami–Port St. Lucie–Fort Lauderdale, FL CSA
10​
Phoenix–Mesa–Chandler, AZ MSA 5,015,678 4,845,832 Diamondbacks Phoenix–Mesa, AZ CSA
11​
Boston–Cambridge–Newton, MA-NH MSA 4,900,550 4,941,632 Red Sox Boston–Worcester–Providence, MA-RI-NH CSA (note: using CSA moves Boston to #7)
12​
Riverside–San Bernardino–Ontario, CA MSA 4,667,558 4,599,839 <None> Los Angeles–Long Beach, CA CSA (Inland Empire probably is just part of LAA market)
13​
San Francisco–Oakland–Fremont, CA MSA 4,579,599 4,749,008 As (for now) Giants San Jose–San Francisco–Oakland, CA CSA
14​
Detroit–Warren–Dearborn, MI MSA 4,345,761 4,392,041 Tigers Detroit–Warren–Ann Arbor, MI CSA
~14 Montreal Census Metropolitan Area 4,027,100 (2015 data) <None> No CSA
15​
Seattle–Tacoma–Bellevue, WA MSA 4,034,248 4,018,762 Mariners Seattle–Tacoma, WA CSA
16​
Minneapolis–St. Paul–Bloomington, MN-WI MSA 3,693,729 3,690,261 Twins Minneapolis–St. Paul, MN-WI CSA
17​
Tampa–St. Petersburg–Clearwater, FL MSA 3,290,730 3,175,275 Rays
18​
San Diego–Chula Vista–Carlsbad, CA MSA 3,276,208 3,298,634 Padres
19​
Denver–Aurora–Centennial, CO MSA 2,985,871 2,963,821 Rockies Denver–Aurora–Greeley, CO CSA
20​
Baltimore–Columbia–Towson, MD MSA 2,835,672 2,844,510 Orioles Washington–Baltimore–Arlington, DC-MD-VA-WV-PA CSA
21​
St. Louis, MO-IL MSA 2,801,319 2,820,253 Cardinals St. Louis–St. Charles–Farmington, MO-IL CSA
22​
Orlando–Kissimmee–Sanford, FL MSA 2,764,182 2,673,376 <None> Orlando–Lakeland–Deltona, FL CSA
23​
Charlotte–Concord–Gastonia, NC-SC MSA 2,756,069 2,660,329 <None> Charlotte–Concord, NC-SC CSA
24​
San Antonio–New Braunfels, TX MSA 2,655,342 2,558,143 <None> San Antonio–New Braunfels–Kerrville, TX CSA
25​
Portland–Vancouver–Hillsboro, OR-WA MSA 2,509,489 2,512,859 <None> Portland–Vancouver–Salem, OR-WA CSA
26​
Pittsburgh, PA MSA 2,434,021 2,457,000 Pirates Pittsburgh–Weirton–Steubenville, PA-OH-WV CSA
27​
Austin–Round Rock–San Marcos, TX MSA 2,421,115 2,283,371 <None>
28​
Sacramento–Roseville–Folsom, CA MSA 2,416,702 2,397,382 <None> Sacramento–Roseville, CA CSA
29​
Las Vegas–Henderson–North Las Vegas, NV MSA 2,322,985 2,265,461 As (potentially) Las Vegas–Henderson, NV CSA
30​
Cincinnati, OH-KY-IN MSA 2,258,099 2,249,797 Reds Cincinnati–Wilmington, OH-KY-IN CSA
31​
Kansas City, MO-KS MSA 2,209,494 2,192,035 Royals Kansas City–Overland Park–Kansas City, MO-KS CSA
32​
Columbus, OH MSA 2,161,511 2,138,926 <None> Columbus–Marion–Zanesville, OH CSA (probably part of Guardians and Reds fanbase)
33​
Cleveland, OH MSA 2,160,146 2,185,825 Guardians Cleveland–Akron–Canton, OH CSA
34​
Indianapolis–Carmel–Greenwood, IN MSA 2,119,839 2,089,653 <None> Indianapolis–Carmel–Muncie, IN CSA
35​
Nashville-Davidson–Murfreesboro–Franklin, TN MSA 2,072,283 2,014,444 <None> Nashville-Davidson–Murfreesboro, TN CSA
36​
San Jose–Sunnyvale–Santa Clara, CA MSA 1,938,524 2,000,468 <None> San Jose–San Francisco–Oakland, CA CSA (all part of Giants / As market)
37​
Virginia Beach–Chesapeake–Norfolk, VA-NC MSA 1,787,188 1,780,059 <None> Virginia Beach–Chesapeake, VA-NC CSA
38​
Jacksonville, FL MSA 1,675,668 1,605,848 <None> Jacksonville–Kingsland–Palatka, FL-GA CSA
39​
Providence–Warwick, RI-MA MSA 1,673,802 1,676,579 <None> Boston–Worcester–Providence, MA-RI-NH CSA (all part of Red Sox market)
40​
Milwaukee–Waukesha, WI MSA 1,559,792 1,574,731 Brewers Milwaukee–Racine–Waukesha, WI CSA
 
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Marciano490

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Nov 4, 2007
62,318
The talent diffusion counter to expansion would be to continue developing the game internationally, right? Relatedly, do any teams do any development in Africa like the NBA has begun too? I think there have been a couple players from South Africa, but you’d think other parts of the continent would be worth exploring too.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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Wait, YELLOWKNIFE? It's population 20k people. The average high temp in October is 34F, and the average low is 24F. I can't imagine you meant Yellowknife. Edmonton? Vancouver makes more sense than Montreal, frankly considering the temperate climate. Calgary? But Yellowknife can't possibly be what you meant, no?
Good lord I thought that was an obvious joke!
 

VORP Speed

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These are great questions. A couple thoughts...

Regarding the 90s expansion, I think it's tough to assess the benefits because of how awful Florida expansion has gone. It really has been a 25 year case study in what not to do. Lousy stadiums in lousy locations with lousy ownership. MLB had to go into Florida, but they've done it in pretty much the worst way possible. Colorado, and to a lesser extent Arizona, have been successes IMHO.

Regarding national vs. regional, my perspective is that MLB should lean into what they are rather than fight a likely losing battle for what they're not. Yes the RSNs business model is crumbling, but that is being replaced by a hybrid broadcast TV/DTC streaming model. Any sport with 162 games needs local media outlets.
The Rays don’t have lousy ownership. They’ve consistently put one of the best teams in baseball on the field ever since they took over. 3rd best record in MLB over the last 15 years. The stadium is awful and depressing and attendance sucks but you could not ask for ownership to deliver a better product on the field.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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The Rays don’t have lousy ownership. They’ve consistently put one of the best teams in baseball on the field ever since they took over. 3rd best record in MLB over the last 15 years. The stadium is awful and depressing and attendance sucks but you could not ask for ownership to deliver a better product on the field.
Just think how angry half of Sox fans were when Mookie was traded (Hey... let's discuss the Mookie trade again). That's basically what the Rays are perpetually doing. It can be dispiriting even if the team is continuously contending to a lot of fans
 

YTF

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The talent diffusion counter to expansion would be to continue developing the game internationally, right? Relatedly, do any teams do any development in Africa like the NBA has begun too? I think there have been a couple players from South Africa, but you’d think other parts of the continent would be worth exploring too.
Asking because I have no earthly idea. Are there suitable fields for playing and interested players in numbers large enough to field teams? It seems this would truly be a "from the ground up" effort.
 

Yaz4Ever

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I vote for Greensboro, NC - Centrally located between Charlotte and Raleigh bringing both of those markets together. Then again, I live here so I'm possibly biased.

I think it'll be Nashville and Salt Lake City.
 

8slim

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Unreal America
The Rays don’t have lousy ownership. They’ve consistently put one of the best teams in baseball on the field ever since they took over. 3rd best record in MLB over the last 15 years. The stadium is awful and depressing and attendance sucks but you could not ask for ownership to deliver a better product on the field.
Well, I agree that the Rays have a great baseball front office. But that's just one aspect of "ownership". There isn't a franchise in the game, save Oakland, that has bungled their stadium situation more than Tampa Bay. It's completely unacceptable that they're still playing in the Trop 25 years after launching the franchise.
 

8slim

has trust issues
SoSH Member
Nov 6, 2001
24,962
Unreal America
I agree with the initial analysis that, but I would add that besides DMAs, another way to judge where teams should expand is looking at Combined Statistical Areas or Metropolitan Statistical Areas - that gives a better sense of what the true potential fan base is. (e.g. only considering the Boston-Manchester DMA excludes the Providence-New Bedford, Springfield-Holyoke, Bangor, and other New England DMAs as markets for the Sox, and I think most people on this board would absolutely say those are Red Sox fanbase areas). Not saying census areas are superior to DMAs as a means of estimating markets, only that both should be looked at. I copied Wikipedia's list of the top 40 MSAs and added which teams are in each MSA and added where Montreal compares, plus a couple of notes about the CSAs.

Looking at the biggest MSAs missing a team, you see Inland Empire (which I think is so geographically proximate and culturally linked to LA / SoCal that it probably doesn't really merit another team), then Montreal (4m people), Orlando (2.8m), and Charlotte (2.8m). Charlotte is additionally intriguing because the #41 MSA is Raleigh-Durham, at 1.48 million people, and the whole Carolinas / Tennessee / southern Virginia area seems underserved by baseball, so there could definitely be a market for a Carolina-based team. I'd probably be in favour of adding 2 teams, specifically Montreal and a Carolina one.

Edit: I don't know why the formatting didn't work out, it looked fine before I posted. But you get the idea...

Rank Metropolitan statistical area 2022 estimate 2020 census Teams Encompassing combined statistical area
1​
New York–Newark–Jersey City, NY-NJ MSA 19,557,311 20,081,935 Mets Yankees New York–Newark, NY-NJ-CT-PA CSA
2​
Los Angeles–Long Beach–Anaheim, CA MSA 12,872,322 13,200,998 Angels Dodgers Los Angeles–Long Beach, CA CSA
3​
Chicago–Naperville–Elgin, IL-IN MSA 9,274,140 9,449,351 Cubs White Sox Chicago–Naperville, IL-IN-WI CSA
4​
Dallas–Fort Worth–Arlington, TX MSA 7,943,685 7,637,387 Rangers Dallas–Fort Worth, TX-OK CSA
5​
Houston–Pasadena–The Woodlands, TX MSA 7,368,466 7,149,642 Astros Houston–Pasadena, TX CSA
6​
Washington–Arlington–Alexandria, DC-VA-MD-WV MSA 6,265,183 6,278,542 Nationals Washington–Baltimore–Arlington, DC-MD-VA-WV-PA CSA
7​
Philadelphia–Camden–Wilmington, PA-NJ-DE-MD MSA 6,241,164 6,245,051 Phillies Philadelphia–Reading–Camden, PA-NJ-DE-MD CSA
8​
Atlanta–Sandy Springs–Roswell, GA MSA 6,237,435 6,104,803 Braves Atlanta–Athens-Clarke County–Sandy Springs, GA-AL CSA
9​
Miami–Fort Lauderdale–West Palm Beach, FL MSA 6,139,340 6,138,333 Marlins Miami–Port St. Lucie–Fort Lauderdale, FL CSA
10​
Phoenix–Mesa–Chandler, AZ MSA 5,015,678 4,845,832 Diamondbacks Phoenix–Mesa, AZ CSA
11​
Boston–Cambridge–Newton, MA-NH MSA 4,900,550 4,941,632 Red Sox Boston–Worcester–Providence, MA-RI-NH CSA (note: using CSA moves Boston to #7)
12​
Riverside–San Bernardino–Ontario, CA MSA 4,667,558 4,599,839 <None> Los Angeles–Long Beach, CA CSA (Inland Empire probably is just part of LAA market)
13​
San Francisco–Oakland–Fremont, CA MSA 4,579,599 4,749,008 As (for now) Giants San Jose–San Francisco–Oakland, CA CSA
14​
Detroit–Warren–Dearborn, MI MSA 4,345,761 4,392,041 Tigers Detroit–Warren–Ann Arbor, MI CSA
~14 Montreal Census Metropolitan Area 4,027,100 (2015 data) <None> No CSA
15​
Seattle–Tacoma–Bellevue, WA MSA 4,034,248 4,018,762 Mariners Seattle–Tacoma, WA CSA
16​
Minneapolis–St. Paul–Bloomington, MN-WI MSA 3,693,729 3,690,261 Twins Minneapolis–St. Paul, MN-WI CSA
17​
Tampa–St. Petersburg–Clearwater, FL MSA 3,290,730 3,175,275 Rays
18​
San Diego–Chula Vista–Carlsbad, CA MSA 3,276,208 3,298,634 Padres
19​
Denver–Aurora–Centennial, CO MSA 2,985,871 2,963,821 Rockies Denver–Aurora–Greeley, CO CSA
20​
Baltimore–Columbia–Towson, MD MSA 2,835,672 2,844,510 Orioles Washington–Baltimore–Arlington, DC-MD-VA-WV-PA CSA
21​
St. Louis, MO-IL MSA 2,801,319 2,820,253 Cardinals St. Louis–St. Charles–Farmington, MO-IL CSA
22​
Orlando–Kissimmee–Sanford, FL MSA 2,764,182 2,673,376 <None> Orlando–Lakeland–Deltona, FL CSA
23​
Charlotte–Concord–Gastonia, NC-SC MSA 2,756,069 2,660,329 <None> Charlotte–Concord, NC-SC CSA
24​
San Antonio–New Braunfels, TX MSA 2,655,342 2,558,143 <None> San Antonio–New Braunfels–Kerrville, TX CSA
25​
Portland–Vancouver–Hillsboro, OR-WA MSA 2,509,489 2,512,859 <None> Portland–Vancouver–Salem, OR-WA CSA
26​
Pittsburgh, PA MSA 2,434,021 2,457,000 Pirates Pittsburgh–Weirton–Steubenville, PA-OH-WV CSA
27​
Austin–Round Rock–San Marcos, TX MSA 2,421,115 2,283,371 <None>
28​
Sacramento–Roseville–Folsom, CA MSA 2,416,702 2,397,382 <None> Sacramento–Roseville, CA CSA
29​
Las Vegas–Henderson–North Las Vegas, NV MSA 2,322,985 2,265,461 As (potentially) Las Vegas–Henderson, NV CSA
30​
Cincinnati, OH-KY-IN MSA 2,258,099 2,249,797 Reds Cincinnati–Wilmington, OH-KY-IN CSA
31​
Kansas City, MO-KS MSA 2,209,494 2,192,035 Royals Kansas City–Overland Park–Kansas City, MO-KS CSA
32​
Columbus, OH MSA 2,161,511 2,138,926 <None> Columbus–Marion–Zanesville, OH CSA (probably part of Guardians and Reds fanbase)
33​
Cleveland, OH MSA 2,160,146 2,185,825 Guardians Cleveland–Akron–Canton, OH CSA
34​
Indianapolis–Carmel–Greenwood, IN MSA 2,119,839 2,089,653 <None> Indianapolis–Carmel–Muncie, IN CSA
35​
Nashville-Davidson–Murfreesboro–Franklin, TN MSA 2,072,283 2,014,444 <None> Nashville-Davidson–Murfreesboro, TN CSA
36​
San Jose–Sunnyvale–Santa Clara, CA MSA 1,938,524 2,000,468 <None> San Jose–San Francisco–Oakland, CA CSA (all part of Giants / As market)
37​
Virginia Beach–Chesapeake–Norfolk, VA-NC MSA 1,787,188 1,780,059 <None> Virginia Beach–Chesapeake, VA-NC CSA
38​
Jacksonville, FL MSA 1,675,668 1,605,848 <None> Jacksonville–Kingsland–Palatka, FL-GA CSA
39​
Providence–Warwick, RI-MA MSA 1,673,802 1,676,579 <None> Boston–Worcester–Providence, MA-RI-NH CSA (all part of Red Sox market)
40​
Milwaukee–Waukesha, WI MSA 1,559,792 1,574,731 Brewers Milwaukee–Racine–Waukesha, WI CSA
Totally agree that MSA/CSA are better representations of the total potential fan base.
 

8slim

has trust issues
SoSH Member
Nov 6, 2001
24,962
Unreal America
Well, FWIW, the current Miami stadium is pretty great. It's just in an area that's not easily accessible for a huge chunk of fans. (Partially because the traffic congestion is outrageous generally.)

People bitch about the Trop (and rightly so) but the area it's in is pretty great. It's just not super convenient to a huge chunk of Tampa itself.

IMO, future stadiums should be paid for by the teams not the municipalities. . .but really some thought should be given by the states/cities to providing the infrastructure that allows stadium access - be that light rail or highway off-ramps and parking schemes that make the logistics of attending a game a second-thought, instead of a first one.
I agree with those distinctions. Just saying that both situations have been far from ideal for those franchises to truly succeed. And I do hope that MLB has learned from their Florida experience -- stadium location and fan access is critical.
 

thehitcat

Member
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Nov 25, 2003
2,385
Windham, ME
Hmmm I used the MSA/CSA lists because I agree that they are better approximations of a potential fan base. I loved the idea of 6 new franchises and expanding to 36 with 4 9 team divisions. However I don't love the idea of New York and Los Angeles getting third teams. Also I looked to see if it was a "Major League town" with at least one other successful big 5 franchise (welcome to the group MLS.) This allowed me to choose between Charlotte and the Triangle in North Carolina and kind of between San Antonio and Austin in Texas. So my 6 in what I believe is MSA order
1. Montreal - Canadiens and CF Montreal
2. Charlotte, NC - Panthers and Hornets (edging out the Hurricanes in Raleigh)
3 Portland, Oregon - Timbers and (thanks @E5 Yaz ) Trailblazers
4. San Antonio - Spurs (edging out Austin and Austin FC probably my biggest tossup)
5. Indianapolis - Colts and Pacers
6. Nashville - Titans and Predators

I feel like any realistic review by MLB will include how other pro franchises are able to do in the area as well and could push some places in front of others. Also I left out Orlando because both Florida franchises are complete tire fires and I don't know if MLB will ever take hold as a summer sport in Florida.
 
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mikeford

woolwich!
SoSH Member
Aug 6, 2006
29,711
St John's, NL
Do we think there is enough TALENT to warrant all these new teams? I feel like that should be factored in as well. The quality of the product could suffer greatly if we further dilute the talent pool for teams, no?
 

simplicio

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Apr 11, 2012
5,298
I think it would be wise to hedge against mass migration away from the Southwest due to climate change/water shortages by not installing a team there, but what do I know?
 

Jack Rabbit Slim

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1,305
Do we think there is enough TALENT to warrant all these new teams? I feel like that should be factored in as well. The quality of the product could suffer greatly if we further dilute the talent pool for teams, no?
I think this is what makes jumping from 30 to 36 teams unfeasible in a one time expansion. Even looking at just major league rosters, 6 new teams at 26 players per means 5+ major league players from each existing team are being replaced with AAA players. Maybe getting to 36 is the long term plan but for now everything indicates 2 expansion teams to make 32 (8 4 team divisions or 4 8 team divisions).

The MSA/CSA data is a good starting point, but geographically it seems necessary for the expansion teams to be away from the northeast. Montreal Expos Part Deux would be fun, but adding a team in the west and a team in the south would do a lot to equalize team travel time and create a broader fan base nationally. I think it will be one of Portland Jacks/SLC Bees and one of Nashville Stars/Carolina Flyers.
 

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
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Jul 15, 2005
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I think there is a ton of talent out there, and some guys never get a real chance because of the odd rostering rules MLB has. I think 40 man rosters need to expand, I am OK with adding expansion teams, and I think there are plenty of talented players to cover all of that.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

has fancy plans, and pants to match
Dope
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Apr 12, 2001
24,644
Also... Colorado team needs to move. Tampa too.
Have you ever been to a game in Denver? It's awesome. I've been to 30 parks and Coors Field is Top Five, and I don't even like the Rockies a bit. Colorado can stay. Tampa has to leave though.

Edit: and I absolutely remember this poster from back in the day. I loved it and wanted it.
 

cannonball 1729

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Sep 8, 2005
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Do we think there is enough TALENT to warrant all these new teams? I feel like that should be factored in as well. The quality of the product could suffer greatly if we further dilute the talent pool for teams, no?
Talent is always a tough one to judge, but in the time since the last expansion, the world population has grown by 33% and the US population has grown by 20%. Obviously, the talent would look diluted if you compared the year before the expansion to the one after it, but I think it's fair to say that, compared to the historical level of talent, it seems very likely - just by comparing raw numbers - that the general talent level with a two team expansion would still be significantly better than it was in, say, the 90's or 2000's.

(This is the argument Bill James has made for decades when people compare old-time players to post-expansion players - there are so many more people now, which means that rising to the top is much harder.)

The other factor is interest in the game itself, which certainly has been addressed in SOSH's pages. MLB attendance hit a 37-year low in 2021. TV viewership dropped 12 per cent in 2019 and the trend continues.
Is that true about declining TV viewership? Everything I've seen indicates that TV views and attendance were up this year.

Also...wasn't 2021 a Covid year? Lots of teams limited attendance for much of the season, so I'm not sure there's much to learn from 2021 attendance numbers.
 

nattysez

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Sep 30, 2010
8,511
I think there is a ton of talent out there, and some guys never get a real chance because of the odd rostering rules MLB has. I think 40 man rosters need to expand, I am OK with adding expansion teams, and I think there are plenty of talented players to cover all of that.
I disagree. There is a lot of top talent, but the end-of-roster talent seems worse than ever. The corpses of Josh Donaldson and Evan Longoria were/are starting for playoff teams. The Dodgers had so few competent SS available that they had Mookie playing short for multiple games. Look at some of the lineups the Sox and Yankees rolled out this year. How many "long-time minor-leaguers" wound up getting called up this year because their teams were out of competent bodies? I can think of 2-3 off the top of my head.

I'm happy to look at data that says I'm wrong, but I feel like baseball is a good ways away from being in a state talent-wise where it should consider expansion.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

has fancy plans, and pants to match
Dope
SoSH Member
Apr 12, 2001
24,644
Is that true about declining TV viewership? Everything I've seen indicates that TV views and attendance were up this year.

Also...wasn't 2021 a Covid year? Lots of teams limited attendance for much of the season, so I'm not sure there's much to learn from 2021 attendance numbers.
Yeah. From what I read this year saw a big increase in attendance over all 30 teams thanks in part to the rule changes. And I don't think that Fenway fully opened until May or June of 2021 due to Covid restrictions and other teams followed suit. Just randomly checking on a game in April between the Sox and Chicago (AL) saw 4668 pass through the turnstyles. When the Sox were in Minnesota the series prior, there was only 7400 in the stands.

I'd throw most of the 2021 data out the window.
 

Rovin Romine

Johnny Rico
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I think there is a ton of talent out there, and some guys never get a real chance because of the odd rostering rules MLB has. I think 40 man rosters need to expand, I am OK with adding expansion teams, and I think there are plenty of talented players to cover all of that.
How much though? 2 teams worth? 6?
 

cannonball 1729

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I disagree. There is a lot of top talent, but the end-of-roster talent seems worse than ever. The corpses of Josh Donaldson and Evan Longoria were/are starting for playoff teams. The Dodgers had so few competent SS available that they had Mookie playing short for multiple games. Look at some of the lineups the Sox and Yankees rolled out this year. How many "long-time minor-leaguers" wound up getting called up this year because their teams were out of competent bodies? I can think of 2-3 off the top of my head.

I'm happy to look at data that says I'm wrong, but I feel like baseball is a good ways away from being in a state talent-wise where it should consider expansion.
I would guess this is more "injuries are up" than "talent is missing." The Dodgers certainly had enough talent on the roster that Mookie shouldn't have needed to play shortstop - he only did so because Lux and Taylor were injured.

One of the things I've realized recently is that the steroid era screwed up my perception of how often players are or should be injured. It's easy to stay on the field when you can HGH your way back into the lineup. Now that we're back to somewhat normal and injuries/aging are back to historic rates, it's taken some adjustment to realize that maybe this level of injuries is what should have been happening all along.
 

Ale Xander

Hamilton
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Oct 31, 2013
73,437
If going to 36, I would like to see:

1) New Braunfels, Buda, San Marcos TX (coming around to this now especially with ALcs hype now)
2) Oakland getting a replacement (or San Jose)
3) Either Raleigh-Durham (or Greensboro) or Charlotte but not both. Both have gorgeous AAA stadia downtown but given Bulls are very successful and have more people exiting in the summer to go to Outer Banks (I think) I’m leaning to Charlotte especially if Nashville gets a team
R-D does deserve a 2nd pro team though
4) Nashville
5) SLC
6) Montreal

next options
A) Brooklyn first choice or Staten Island or Northern NJ
B) Long Beach first choice or Thousand Oaks/Oxnard. Riverside County if Dodgers AAA team moves.
C) Portland OR
D) other city in NC

also still support Rays moving to Orlando or Lakeland

edited: to add in Buda
 
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