MLB Hot Stove Rumours Thread

Hendu for Kutch

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Using baseball reference's season finder tool, Baez had the worst K/AB number of any season with at least 200 plate appearances in MLB history.  His per 162 numbers put him at 296 K's over a full season, which obviously would obliterate the single-season K record.
 
He's got a ton of power, and he's young and will hopefully improve, but Baez is a very high risk player.
 

Snodgrass'Muff

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We're talking about a 21 year old kid in his first taste of major league pitching. I don't think his strikeout rate is really indicative of anything. His career minor league K/AB is 350/1216 or .288. His major league rate was 95/213 or .446. There is no way he's anywhere near that bad. Even if we assume his major league career K/AB will be worse than his minor league rate, and even if we further assume that next year will be worse than the one after that or his prime, I'd bet the farm that he's nowhere near .446 in 2015. That's an absurd rate and is probably much more to do with him being promoted so fast (and young) than his actual talent level.
 
What we do know for sure is that he has some of the best bat speed in the majors already. That's something you bet hard on. Yes, he'll always strike out a lot. No, he'll never be a high OBP hitter. But the upside is enormous even with those dings in the armor. I'm guessing he ends up with a lower than league average OBP in 2015. Even with that, however, I think he could be an average bat for the position because of his power. If the Cubs are lucky, he'll end up slightly above average at the plate. If they pull off something like trading for Zimmerman, signing a front of the rotation starter like Lester or Scherzer, a catcher like Russell Martin and then grab Andrew Miller, they'll have added around 70 million to their payroll and made themselves contenders for the NL Central. In that scenario, they don't need more than average overall production from shortstop. They'd like it, but weighing Baez's future potential against what would, at that point, be an incremental improvement at the position makes it tough to pick the latter over the former, IMO.
 

MakMan44

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Snodgrass'Muff said:
What we do know for sure is that he has some of the best bat speed in the majors already. That's something you bet hard on. Yes, he'll always strike out a lot. No, he'll never be a high OBP hitter. But the upside is enormous even with those dings in the armor. I'm guessing he ends up with a lower than league average OBP in 2015. Even with that, however, I think he could be an average bat for the position because of his power. If the Cubs are lucky, he'll end up slightly above average at the plate. If they pull off something like trading for Zimmerman, signing a front of the rotation starter like Lester or Scherzer, a catcher like Russell Martin and then grab Andrew Miller, they'll have added around 70 million to their payroll and made themselves contenders for the NL Central. In that scenario, they don't need more than average overall production from shortstop. They'd like it, but weighing Baez's future potential against what would, at that point, be an incremental improvement at the position makes it tough to pick the latter over the former, IMO.
I don't think Zimmerman is the right pitcher to acquire either. Giving up Baez to pay Zimmerman market rates isn't the smart move to make. However, I think there's a good argument to be made that the Cubs should at least look into moving him now, while his prospect value is still very high for controllable pitching. Maybe they could pry Alex Wood away from the Braves, something along those lines. 
 

grimshaw

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In order of pitching trade targets, I'd put Zimmerman first.  They had really big issues with 3,4,5 starters chewing up innings, and he's as much of a horse as is on the trade market.  They don't really have anyone in their system right now who projects that way except maybe Owens.  Possibly Johnson.
 

nattysez

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Dan Szymborski's take on VMart, which Dave Cameron has co-signed, is pretty interesting:
 
 
From Tigers standpoint, they're essentially a terminally ill franchise, so it doesn't matter if they overspend on their upcoming vacation
At this point, with such a poor long-term trajectory, the Tigers best position is to just keep the party going as long as they can.
 
 

glennhoffmania

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Four years for a 36 year old DH?  If it's not for like $8m per year then I don't get it.
 

Jack Sox

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I can't say I get the outrage over this deal. It might be an overpay in terms of length, but Martinez is an extremely intelligent hitter and now as a full-time DH, I see no reason that he can't produce at a similar level as Papi has over the past few years.
 

glennhoffmania

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Jack Sox said:
I can't say I get the outrage over this deal. It might be an overpay in terms of length, but Martinez is an extremely intelligent hitter and now as a full-time DH, I see no reason that he can't produce at a similar level as Papi has over the past few years.
 
If you think he can maintain his career-best ISO, K rate, OBP, SLG, and wRC+ for the next four years then I'd agree.  I'm skeptical though.
 

Snodgrass'Muff

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PP, I agree Russell is a better bet in the short term. What I'm betting on in going with Baez is the long term pay off with that power. It's such a rare commodity these days that I'd rather risk Russell in a deal. They have tons of infield prospects, so they won't be short players by trading either one. I'm just throwing in with that bat speed over the higher floor.
 

Jack Sox

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glennhoffmania said:
 
If you think he can maintain his career-best ISO, K rate, OBP, SLG, and wRC+ for the next four years then I'd agree.  I'm skeptical though.
I'm skeptical too, but I don't think he needs to maintain all of those for this contract to be worthwhile for the Tigers. I think we're entering a pretty unprecedented territory when it comes to evaluating aging DHs. Guys like Papi and V-Mart - who could always hit - now only have to train and hone in on that one craft (primarily, I recognize V-Mart still plays in the field from time to time). While I doubt the guy improves upon his last season, it would not shock me to see this contract work out for the Tigers.
 

grimshaw

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There were 9 full time DH's last year.  The middle three in wRC+ were OrtiZ (135), Pujols (124) and Chris Carter (123).  Martinez had his outlier (166) last year and (112) the year before.
His 2nd best season was a (130) which Ortiz poops.  And his career average is (125) which would have put him 37th in baseball last year in between Melky and Dexter Fowler.  This is in a depressed offensive era too.  He's also in the bottom 5  of all baserunners. 
 
Who exactly were they bidding against aside from Seattle?
 
Speaking of aging DH's, is there any chance that Albert Pujols is actually 33 years old and not 35 or 36.  He's signed through 2021.  Imagine having V-Mart at 6 years/144, like the Angels are on the hook for.
 

Plympton91

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Seabass177 said:
I don't think we'll see a worse signing this offseason. Giving up the #15 pick for Cuddyer is indefensible. 
What fraction of number 15 overall picks have ever had one season as good as Cuddyer's median projection for 2015?

The overvaluing of draft picks around here is akin to a NASDAQ tech company in November 1999.
 

MakMan44

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Plympton91 said:
What fraction of number 15 overall picks have ever had one season as good as Cuddyer's median projection for 2015?

The overvaluing of draft picks around here is akin to a NASDAQ tech company in November 1999.
To play devil's advocate for a minute; baseball is trending towards a young man's game at a time when it's harder to acquire that commodity, especially if they introduce a international draft as discussed previously. In that context, is it the wisest move to give up the pick and draft pool money for a 35 YO who only played in 49 games this season? 
 
I've come around on the deal a bit, but I think it's hard to argue that the draft pick doesn't have a fair amount of value in the current MLB. 
 

Plympton91

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I'm going to have 3 pissed off little girls if the Nats trade Zimmerman. I hate how much Major League Baseball now resembles rotisserie league league baseball. It really takes a lot of the joy out if the game.
 

wibi

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Plympton91 said:
I'm going to have 3 pissed off little girls if the Nats trade Zimmerman. I hate how much Major League Baseball now resembles rotisserie league league baseball. It really takes a lot of the joy out if the game.
 
Im impressed that sub-10 year old girls care enough about baseball to know Zimmerman when Harper seems to be a much more popular target.
 

Seabass

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Plympton91 said:
What fraction of number 15 overall picks have ever had one season as good as Cuddyer's median projection for 2015?

The overvaluing of draft picks around here is akin to a NASDAQ tech company in November 1999.
 
The number 15 pick is worth somewhere around $10 to 20 million. Not that citing individual number 15 picks really proves anything, but Devin Mesoraco, Stephen Drew, Chris Carpenter and some other talented fellas all went fifteenth. My issue isn't with giving that pick away, it's with giving it a way for Michael Cuddyer. He's old. He played 49 games last year. He posted a .734 OPS outside of Coors. I don't think he's the piece that gets the Mets to the 85-90 win range.
 
If the Mets signed Hanley to play left, or signed Shields and then flipped Syndegaard, Nimmo and Montero for Tulo, I'd be fine with them giving away the pick. First round draft picks are crazy valuable, but I'm okay with a team forfeiting it for the right player. Cuddyer isn't that player for the Mets.
 

Scoops Bolling

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MLB Trade Rumors reporting the Tigers flipped Devon Travis (named today as their #1 prospect) for...Anthony Gose?!
 

Rice4HOF

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Scoops Bolling said:
MLB Trade Rumors reporting the Tigers flipped Devon Travis (named today as their #1 prospect) for...Anthony Gose?!
Yup. Posted over in the news thread.  fyi - Most Blue Jay fans (who in their defence don't know who their own #1 prospect is, never mind other team's) are angry about the trade. They see it as a promising young player for someone they never heard of.
 

MakMan44

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That makes no sense. Gose has had a ton of PT over the last couple seasons. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm not surprised Blue Jay fans are that dumb.
 

Jack Sox

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Man - Law really has it in for short 2nd basemen who've hit at every level, doesn't he? Case in point:
 
 

"Dustin Pedroia doesn't have the strength or bat speed to hit major-league pitching consistently, and he has no power......He probably has a future as a backup infielder if he can stop rolling over to third base and shortstop."
 
I think this is the best move the Blue Jays have made in quite some time. I saw Travis play 10 or so games in the Midwest League in the 2013 season and outside of maybe Jesse Winker out of the Reds system, he was the best hitter for average that I came across in that league. A non-prospect is laughable at best and just wreaks of short man syndrome at its worst. Couple that with the fact that Gose is just an athlete masquerading as a baseball player and Dalton Pompey's presence - does everything better than Gose, or at least is a good bet to (save maybe speed), this trade seems like a big win for the Blue Jays. Young cost controlled 2B of the future type of material, IMO. 
 
Keith Law is a strange dude. 
 

E5 Yaz

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Jack Sox said:
Man - Law really has it in for short 2nd basemen who've hit at every level, doesn't he? Case in point:
 
 
 
I think this is the best move the Blue Jays have made in quite some time. I saw Travis play 10 or so games in the Midwest League in the 2013 season and outside of maybe Jesse Winker out of the Reds system, he was the best hitter for average that I came across in that league. A non-prospect is laughable at best and just wreaks of short man syndrome at its worst. Couple that with the fact that Gose is just an athlete masquerading as a baseball player and Dalton Pompey's presence - does everything better than Gose, or at least is a good bet to (save maybe speed), this trade seems like a big win for the Blue Jays. Young cost controlled 2B of the future type of material, IMO. 
 
Keith Law is a strange dude. 
 
He spent the year saying Panik wasn't really a player, offensively or defensively, either.
 

Snoop Soxy Dogg

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LondonSox said:
When the party ends for the Tigers, that team is going the way of their city.
In two years I'll wager they start a long term period of shittata fish.
 
At this point, they might as well show Scherzer (and Andrew Miller..) the money, no? Why draw the line there? I hear all these noises about Dombrowski being a top 5 GM, and I'm skeptical of that with nearly every move he makes. Of course, there's always the built-in excuse that the owner makes him do it. Good "win-now" GM for sure, but even Omar Minaya can do that..
 

grimshaw

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Papelbon's Poutine said:
 
Pujols played 116 games at 1B last year, and 43 games at DH. In what world does that constitute a "full time DH"? 
Change "full time" to 40 games or more, which is still a huge overpay.  That must have been the default Fangraphs filter. 
 

E5 Yaz

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Keith Law chat today:
 
Why is Devon Travis a non-prospect?

Klaw
  (1:24 PM)
 
The better question is why you think he's a prospect.
 

Hendu for Kutch

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E5 Yaz said:
Keith Law chat today:
 
Why is Devon Travis a non-prospect?
Klaw
  (1:24 PM)
 
The better question is why you think he's a prospect.
 
I want to like Keith Law, but he can be such a douche sometimes that I just can't. 
 
It's a legitimate question, Baseball America lists him as the Tigers #1 prospect.  I've never seen the guy play, but I might be interested in hearing different opinions on the guy rather than intonations that I'm a moron because I had the audacity to read Baseball America.
 

gammoseditor

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Hendu for Kutch said:
 
I want to like Keith Law, but he can be such a douche sometimes that I just can't. 
 
It's a legitimate question, Baseball America lists him as the Tigers #1 prospect.  I've never seen the guy play, but I might be interested in hearing different opinions on the guy rather than intonations that I'm a moron because I had the audacity to read Baseball America.
 
The other possibility is that BA doesn't see him or anyone else in the Tigers organization as much of a prospect either.  It has to be one of the worst farm systems in baseball.
 

MakMan44

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gammoseditor said:
 
The other possibility is that BA doesn't see him or anyone else in the Tigers organization as much of a prospect either.  It has to be one of the worst farm systems in baseball.
They also had him as the 84th prospect in all of baseball, but your second point is correct.
 

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gammoseditor said:
 
The other possibility is that BA doesn't see him or anyone else in the Tigers organization as much of a prospect either.  It has to be one of the worst farm systems in baseball.
 
I refuse to believe a major league team could have a farm system so bad that their number one ranked player is a non prospect. There's obviously a huge discrepancy in evaluations here, would be nice if Law would elucidate his point a bit further, instead of just repeating "he isn't a prospect" as if it were the obvious opinion to have.
 

LondonSox

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He wrote a piece on it.
One reason in the chat he won't get too detailed is he said he wrote a piece that has just been published and is behind a the insider wall.
http://m.espn.go.com/general/blogs/blogpost?blogname=keith-law&id=2931

Travis is just a few months younger than Gose and has yet to reach Triple-A; he's a below-average defender at second base, and his bat doesn't profile anywhere else he might play. He has leaky hips and starts his swing from a dead stop with his hands loaded low, making up for it a bit with strength, something that won't work as well against major league pitching.

Really railing on a guy for an individual opinion is a bit sad. There are a ton of guys who just give the consensus opinion over and over. Seems like a guy willing to give is own (which you can ignore) is no bad thing
 

TomRicardo

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Plympton91 said:
What fraction of number 15 overall picks have ever had one season as good as Cuddyer's median projection for 2015?

The overvaluing of draft picks around here is akin to a NASDAQ tech company in November 1999.
 
Like AAPL? I KEED I KEED
 
The problem is Cuddyer is really more of DH/1B than a RF now.  Great bat but can't stay healthy and certainly shouldn't be in the field.  He makes Beltran look like a Gold Glover now.  The Mets may have been better served giving a couple of low end prospects to the Dodgers to have them pay for Crawford or Ethier to play for them.
 
Edit - He would have been a great signing for a team like the Royals
 

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LondonSox said:
Really railing on a guy for an individual opinion is a bit sad. There are a ton of guys who just give the consensus opinion over and over. Seems like a guy willing to give is own (which you can ignore) is no bad thing
 
Agreed on that, but Law is a huge asshole, albeit an occasionally knowledgable one. I had to stop following him on Twitter a while back: it's great to be obnoxious and condescending (seriously, I'm all for it), but you need to be smarter than he is to pull it off. 
 

MakMan44

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TomRicardo said:
 
Like AAPL? I KEED I KEED
 
The problem is Cuddyer is really more of DH/1B than a RF now.  Great bat but can't stay healthy and certainly shouldn't be in the field.  He makes Beltran look like a Gold Glover now.  The Mets may have been better served giving a couple of low end prospects to the Dodgers to have them pay for Crawford or Ethier to play for them.
 
Edit - He would have been a great signing for a team like the Royals
They needed a RHH, Cuddyer is actually a good fit since he can cover first for Duda against LHP.
 

Jack Sox

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jon abbey said:
 
Agreed on that, but Law is a huge asshole, albeit an occasionally knowledgable one. I had to stop following him on Twitter a while back: it's great to be obnoxious and condescending (seriously, I'm all for it), but you need to be smarter than he is to pull it off. 
This is where I'm at too. It's not that he's not knowledgable or won't admit if he's wrong, but he's just not clever or funny enough to back up his snark. The stuff in Londonsox' post could also apply to dozens of prospects (i.e. - player x's current tendencies won't play against a higher level pitching). Well, no shit. That's why a lot of good hitting prospects are able to make a counter adjustment to higher level pitching when the pitching first adjusts to them. Law is smart enough to realize this.
 
Plus his Pedroia evaluation literally missed on a scale of a fringe major league utility player to a player on a HOF trajectory. That's not insignificant.
 

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Greg29fan said:
https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/status/533021347421900801
Ben - offer him 10/$301M during the negotiating window.  It'll still be a good deal for us as he'll be under 35 when the contract expires.  
 
Of course Giancarlo needs to turn this down and force a trade first.  :)