Good. Just read it. I have little picture problems with it but I am glad the issue has been broached.The Pierce story in Esquire talks about it.
Good. Just read it. I have little picture problems with it but I am glad the issue has been broached.The Pierce story in Esquire talks about it.
Not challenging your knowledge. Just adding color for the thread.I know it’s in OC ( I’m in OC) and the weather was cloudy/ foggy all day. A Google search says the closest airport to the crash site is Van Nuys Airport and they reported the weather was at IFR during the time of the accident. Camarillo Airport to the north reported MVFR so it’s safe to say the weather at the time of the accident was MVFR at best.
https://flightaware.com/resources/airport/KVNY/weather
https://flightaware.com/resources/airport/KCMA/weather
The parallels with “now is not the time to discuss gun control” are all there: it will never be the right time. Now is the wrong time because he just died. In a week it will be the wrong time because it’s the funeral. In two weeks it will be the wrong time because why are you bringing this up now it’s old news and irrelevant.I told Mrs. DDB earlier tonight that I thought it would take a day or two for the first writer to dip his or her toe in the water and discuss the rape, and then the gates would open a little. After reading that cesspool of comments following the ERW tweet I am less confident.
He might be right and please pardon my emotion. I’m shook.Blame me - I just relayed what he relayed - he didn’t post it. I did bc I thought it was an interesting take. The guys a big Laker fan and believes this didn’t need to happen. Incidentally, he landed in the same fog right after the accident and said it was very intense.
Thank you for your service
I appreciate it and my apologies if I came across a little too strong.Not challenging your knowledge. Just adding color for the thread.
My problem with the article is it wasn’t just ‘one night.’ His lawyer said her name 6 times in open court and asked aloud whether her vaginal lacerations were due to having sex with three other men.Good. Just read it. I have little picture problems with it but I am glad the issue has been broached.
It's a start but yeah it's got a lot of problems. One takes away that Bryant was still ok. He had done enough, maybe, or we can simply judge for ourselves. Ugh. It'll take someone bold to put Bryant's life and legacy in the proper perspective.Good. Just read it. I have little picture problems with it but I am glad the issue has been broached.
The story has been updated recently, maybe they added this (6th paragraph of a pretty long piece):I thought Jill Filipovic’s piece on it was really good. I haven’t see the NYT obit but if it omits the rape that’s journalistic malpractice
He won an Oscar in 2018 for an animated short film on his life, and was a largely beloved figure, though sexual assault charges in 2003 cast a shadow over his image. Mr. Bryant publicly admitted to having consensual extramarital sex with his 19-year-old accuser, but insisted he had not committed a crime. The charges were ultimately dropped as the woman declined to testify, and she and Mr. Bryant reached a civil settlement, allowing him to resume his storied career.
Fwiw, the helicopter was owned by a charter named Island Express Holding company so, would it be a part 135 operator and are they required to carry black boxes?He might be right and please pardon my emotion. I’m shook.
But the important part is that we don’t know. Yet. Helicopter piloting is a young and brave man’s game, which is why I don’t do it anymore. But my passions in this case and anger towards speculation comes as an aviator, not a veteran. We just don’t know. But the NTSB people will let us know exactly what happened. The engineers and safety investigators at NTSB & Sikorsky are really great we’ll know, but often the critical details show themselves weeks out from the accident. I can provide examples if people think it is helpful.
I don’t believe, as an FAA part 91 operator, that Kobe was required to have a voice recorder (black box) and flight data recorder on his aircraft. I wonder if he did, because someone of his means would typically pay for top of the line avionics and would have received some insurance benefits by having thosE pieces of equipment. If he did, the answers will come quicker. Of note, eye witness statements about aircraft mishaps are Almost always worthless. The mind does funny things with traumatic incidents like an aircraft mishap.
https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/1684/which-aircraft-are-required-to-have-a-black-box91.609(c)(1) No person may operate a U.S. civil registered, multiengine, turbine-powered airplane or rotorcraft having a passenger seating configuration, excluding any pilot seats of 10 or more that has been manufactured after October 11, 1991, unless it is equipped with one or more approved flight recorders that utilize a digital method of recording and storing data and a method of readily retrieving that data from the storage medium, that are capable of recording the data specified in appendix E to this part, for an airplane, or appendix F to this part, for a rotorcraft, of this part within the range, accuracy, and recording interval specified, and that are capable of retaining no less than 8 hours of aircraft operation.
91.609(e) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator, after October 11, 1991, no person may operate a U.S. civil registered multiengine, turbine-powered airplane or rotorcraft having a passenger seating configuration of six passengers or more and for which two pilots are required by type certification or operating rule unless it is equipped with an approved cockpit voice recorder that: (1) Is installed in compliance with § 23.1457(a)(1) and (2), (b), (c), (d)(1)(i), (2) and (3), (e), (f), and (g); § 25.1457(a)(1) and (2), (b), (c), (d)(1)(i), (2) and (3), (e), (f), and (g); § 27.1457(a)(1) and (2), (b), (c), (d)(1)(i), (2) and (3), (e), (f), and (g); or § 29.1457(a)(1) and (2), (b), (c), (d)(1)(i), (2) and (3), (e), (f), and (g) of this chapter, as applicable; and (2) Is operated continuously from the use of the checklist before the flight to completion of the final checklist at the end of the flight
Yeah. That was the problem to me. Not even asking the right question, or acting like there was even a question to be asked. But at least writing about it.It's a start but yeah it's got a lot of problems. One takes away that Bryant was still ok. He had done enough, maybe, or we can simply judge for ourselves. Ugh. It'll take someone bold to put Bryant's life and legacy in the proper perspective.
Right. And even if it was just one night?My problem with the article is it wasn’t just ‘one night.’ His lawyer said her name 6 times in open court and asked aloud whether her vaginal lacerations were due to having sex with three other men.
Yes, that was his lawyer and not him, and I’m not suggesting he should’ve thrown himself in jail, but his advocate’s conduct reflects on him and goes beyond that one night.
The lacerations coming from other partners is a specific exception to FRE 412 (not sure the rules of evidence in Colorado but I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s similar). If the prosecution brings up those injuries, it would be damn near IAC for his attorney to not put forth an alternate theory (assuming a good faith basis). Victim intimidation is a reprehensible practice but pointing out a possible alternate source of injuries is pretty typical in sexual assault trials and something the state would have been expecting and should have warned her about.My problem with the article is it wasn’t just ‘one night.’ His lawyer said her name 6 times in open court and asked aloud whether her vaginal lacerations were due to having sex with three other men.
Yes, that was his lawyer and not him, and I’m not suggesting he should’ve thrown himself in jail, but his advocate’s conduct reflects on him and goes beyond that one night.
That’s fair. But, when coupled with the repeated, intentional disclosure of her name it feels less like zealous representation within the bounds of the FRE and more like an attempt to have the victim’s sexual history be on trial.The lacerations coming from other partners is a specific exception to FRE 412 (not sure the rules of evidence in Colorado but I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s similar). If the prosecution brings up those injuries, it would be damn near IAC for his attorney to not put forth an alternate theory (assuming a good faith basis). Victim intimidation is a reprehensible practice but pointing out a possible alternate source of injuries is pretty typical in sexual assault trials and something the state would have been expecting and should have warned her about.
Hearing about an aircraft tragedy while on an aircraft has got to be a spooky feelingespn: A source told ESPN's Ohm Youngmisuk that the Lakers found out about Bryant's death while on the team plane flying home from Philadelphia.
I laughed (but I'm a bad person).Here I signal my virtue.View attachment 28227
The aircraft was a Sikorsky S76B. It’s a multirole helicopter that can configured to carry up to 14 passengers and two pilots although a typical configuration for this type is six passengers + two pilots. I don’t know how this one was set up but I don’t think the number of passengers has anything to do with the crash.
https://www.aerospace-technology.com/projects/sikorsky-s-76/https://www.globalair.com/aircraft-for-sale/Specifications?specid=341
There's nothing like a little technical knowledge to dampen the melodrama. I mean that as a serious compliment. Should we assume that Kobe was the second pilot in the typical configuration?He might be right and please pardon my emotion. I’m shook.
But the important part is that we don’t know. Yet. Helicopter piloting is a young and brave man’s game, which is why I don’t do it anymore. But my passions in this case and anger towards speculation comes as an aviator, not a veteran. We just don’t know. But the NTSB people will let us know exactly what happened. The engineers and safety investigators at NTSB & Sikorsky are really great we’ll know, but often the critical details show themselves weeks out from the accident. I can provide examples if people think it is helpful.
I don’t believe, as an FAA part 91 operator, that Kobe was required to have a voice recorder (black box) and flight data recorder on his aircraft. I wonder if he did, because someone of his means would typically pay for top of the line avionics and would have received some insurance benefits by having thosE pieces of equipment. If he did, the answers will come quicker. Of note, eye witness statements about aircraft mishaps are Almost always worthless. The mind does funny things with traumatic incidents like an aircraft mishap.
They don't usually include Die Hard 2 among your in-flight viewing options.Hearing about an aircraft tragedy while on an aircraft has got to be a spooky feeling
Yeah, I’m not sure about that because we always have the victim’s name on the charge sheet (even if it’s a minor). Plus, at some point, the victim will have to testify on the merits in open court which will include providing his or her identity for the record so I’m not used to being in a case where the victim’s identity is hidden like that. But sure, if he’s using her name in violation of the court’s order (assuming one was in place), that’s bullshit and if not I’m violation of an order, repeated use of the name serves only one purpose and that’s also bullshit. But it’s also something that may have been done without Kobe’s approval or even prior consultation. Strategic decisions during the case are up to the attorney (outside of the pleading and whether or not the defendant testifies).That’s fair. But, when coupled with the repeated, intentional disclosure of her name it feels less like zealous representation within the bounds of the FRE and more like an attempt to have the victim’s sexual history be on trial.
Actually, a question - 412(b)(1) discusses criminal cases. Assuming Colorado law tracks the FRE, is a pretrial hearing a ‘case’ such that evidence of the victim’s prior sexual history could come in already?The lacerations coming from other partners is a specific exception to FRE 412 (not sure the rules of evidence in Colorado but I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s similar). If the prosecution brings up those injuries, it would be damn near IAC for his attorney to not put forth an alternate theory (assuming a good faith basis). Victim intimidation is a reprehensible practice but pointing out a possible alternate source of injuries is pretty typical in sexual assault trials and something the state would have been expecting and should have warned her about.
In my experience, you have to give notice if you want to introduce 412 evidence so you’d have a pretrial motion which would be closed. The victim may have to testify (we also allow the victim’s attorney to both file motions and be heard for a 412 hearing). Once it’s deemed admissible by the judge, it’s fair game in trial. So, if you’re doing a pretrial hearing because the prosecution wants to pre-admit the SANE, the 412 stuff probably comes up. Admittedly, I’m not completely clear on the state of the procedures at the time the charges were dropped so I’m not sure what hearings were occurring/had occurred.Actually, a question - 412(b)(1) discusses criminal cases. Assuming Colorado law tracks the FRE, is a pretrial hearing a ‘case’ such that evidence of the victim’s prior sexual history could come in already?
Fwiw, the helicopter was owned by a charter named Island Express Holding company so, would it be a part 135 operator and are they required to carry black boxes?
https://heavy.com/sports/2020/01/sikorsky-s-76-helicopter-n72ex-kobe-bryant/
Fake edit: I found this which seems to indicate it had a flight recorder.
https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/1684/which-aircraft-are-required-to-have-a-black-box
Just some guy who lurked and posted occasionally. Much of the stuff he posted was borderline incomprehensible but he was mostly harmless. He had a hangup with the number 42 and a fetish for monkeys for some reason.Who?
This has nothing to do with anything, but....this exact situation happened to the Reds once. In 1940, they retired Willard Hershberger's #5 after he committed suicide in the middle of the season. A couple of years later, they decided that Hershberger's suicide wasn't something that they really wanted to commemorate...so they quietly unretired it in 1942 and started letting people wear #5 again. (They later retired it for good in 1984 after Johnny Bench went to the Hall of Fame.)This is why you never do things like this the day someone dies. They are going to feel really dumb by tomorrow.
Some reason? Probably because they're baller.Just some guy who lurked and posted occasionally. Much of the stuff he posted was borderline incomprehensible but he was mostly harmless. He had a hangup with the number 42 and a fetish for monkeys for some reason.
To each his own.Some reason? Probably because they're baller.
I could care less about Kobe being gone, but his death has hit me pretty hard and I understand why people are reacting the way they are.
Also, this thread is a shitshow and SoSH should be better.
I agree, Fletch, I think for a community of diverse backgrounds and viewpoints and a fast-moving and emotional issue, we've acquitted ourselves well overall. The mods have enforced a certain amount of civility, those for whom his sexual assault dominates their feelings about him have spoken up and continue to feel able to speak up, and even some of those who are Kobe fans first have done some decent listening (Crow comes to mind). There are obviously exceptions in each category, but this sort of colliding of viewpoints is how learning happens. If it makes some people uncomfortable, that means it's going well.Some folks think this thread has been a shit show. I think it's been one of the best threads I've seen in ages. A lot's happened. A lot's been said. Disagreements, shit posting, multiple apologies and retractions. And...I hope we haven't pushed any non males away. This is maybe one of the few places where we can discuss the non sporting side of Kobe alongside his sporting achievements, legacy, what he meant as a sportsman. It's been messy - life is messy...but most of us here - we're doing okay - i think so anyway.
I think the mods and dopes have done a fine job in this thread - they got in early (time wise) on a fast moving spiralling thread.
There has been a whole lot of awful in this thread. This may be the most awful. So sorry to hear this. I hope the asshole who did that suffers appropriately.I too have a daughter. And she was sexually assaulted just last week. While I feel terribly for the Bryant family for losing a child, I can’t quite muster any feelings for her father at all.
The players may play along, but at least we know the refs are above helping make something like this happenShouid probably bet on Lakers to win title now. The irony that Kobe's memory will draw a team together is nor lost on me, but it will.
Also the league will really want it to happen.
That’s good parenting, hard as it may be. I hope your son recognizes that.Thanks all. It was quite the teaching moment to explain to my basketball obsessed 13 year old son why I wasn’t exactly weeping over Kobe’s death, in light of what happened to his sister. Didn’t really enjoy that teaching moment but had to counter all of the over-the-top praise he was watching all day.
This is a phenomenal piece. Thank you for sharing it in this thread.The parallels with “now is not the time to discuss gun control” are all there: it will never be the right time. Now is the wrong time because he just died. In a week it will be the wrong time because it’s the funeral. In two weeks it will be the wrong time because why are you bringing this up now it’s old news and irrelevant.
I thought Jill Filipovic’s piece on it was really good. I haven’t see the NYT obit but if it omits the rape that’s journalistic malpractice
https://jill.substack.com/p/kobe-bryant-and-complicated-legacies
Mooch, that is unspeakably awful. I’m really sorry to hear that.I too have a daughter. And she was sexually assaulted just last week. While I feel terribly for the Bryant family for losing a child, I can’t quite muster any feelings for her father at all.
As a father myself, this is impossibly hard to hear and my heart breaks for your daughter and your family. Thank you for sharing here and providing your perspective. I imagine it may not feel this way, but it makes a difference. Hopefully this place and the community here can provide you some solace, however brief.I too have a daughter. And she was sexually assaulted just last week. While I feel terribly for the Bryant family for losing a child, I can’t quite muster any feelings for her father at all.
There was an article posted earlier in the tread about the legacy of Kobe's rape trial, and the money quote is below:Yeah, I’m not sure about that because we always have the victim’s name on the charge sheet (even if it’s a minor). Plus, at some point, the victim will have to testify on the merits in open court which will include providing his or her identity for the record so I’m not used to being in a case where the victim’s identity is hidden like that. But sure, if he’s using her name in violation of the court’s order (assuming one was in place), that’s bullshit and if not I’m violation of an order, repeated use of the name serves only one purpose and that’s also bullshit. But it’s also something that may have been done without Kobe’s approval or even prior consultation. Strategic decisions during the case are up to the attorney (outside of the pleading and whether or not the defendant testifies).
I've hesitated to jump into this conversation because...This is me. ^^^ My daughter was raped in college last spring. It's been impossibly hard to deal with. She doesn't know this part of Kobe's past, so she texted me yesterday with: Kobe :-(I too have a daughter. And she was sexually assaulted just last week. While I feel terribly for the Bryant family for losing a child, I can’t quite muster any feelings for her father at all.
One paragraph in the second half of the NYTimes obit (paragraph 17) that makes it sound like a minor thing that happened once:The parallels with “now is not the time to discuss gun control” are all there: it will never be the right time. Now is the wrong time because he just died. In a week it will be the wrong time because it’s the funeral. In two weeks it will be the wrong time because why are you bringing this up now it’s old news and irrelevant.
I thought Jill Filipovic’s piece on it was really good. I haven’t see the NYT obit but if it omits the rape that’s journalistic malpractice
https://jill.substack.com/p/kobe-bryant-and-complicated-legacies
No discussion of the facts of the "incident" or the context for why she was unwilling to testify.He was charged with felony sexual assault in 2003 stemming from an incident at a Colorado hotel in which Bryant was accused of raping a 19-year-old woman who worked at the property as a front-desk clerk. Prosecutors eventually dropped the case when the woman told them she was unwilling to testify. Bryant later issued an apology, saying he understood that the woman, unlike himself, did not view their encounter as consensual. A lawsuit the woman brought against Bryant was later settled out of court.
I think I read that the bigger issue with the Post reporter was that she posted a screenshot that showed her inbox and the names of those who allegedly were threatening her by email.One paragraph in the second half of the NYTimes obit (paragraph 17) that makes it sound like a minor thing that happened once:
No discussion of the facts of the "incident" or the context for why she was unwilling to testify.
Meanwhile, a female Washington Post reporter who merely tweeted the Think Progress article that many people here linked to, immediately received over 10,000 death threats and the response from her employer was to put her on administrative leave, saying "the tweets displayed poor judgment that undermined the work of her colleagues." This is what we talk about when we talk about rape culture.
Fantastic. Kudos to USA Today, not exactly the outlet I expected to be the first to really go here.
"As devastating as the news of Bryant’s death was for his fans and those who loved him, it had to be equally devastating for sexual assault survivors – but for wholly different reasons. Seeing the reverence and respect with which Bryant was remembered, with little if any recognition that he was once involved in a rape case, is a reminder that survivors' pain is too often ignored, their experience almost always dismissed.
All of this – the good and the bad, the public face and the private darkness – is part of who Kobe Bryant was. To ignore that, or shout down those who won’t, puts Bryant in a neat little box where he doesn’t fit. Cannot fit."
That's very interesting. Thanks for sharing. The law has certainly evolved significantly since 2003-2004, mostly for the good. It's unfortunate that it takes these types of cases to get some meaningful reform.There was an article posted earlier in the tread about the legacy of Kobe's rape trial, and the money quote is below:
"One positive, if there is such a thing, to come out of the Bryant case was the improved rape shield laws in Colorado. Rape shield laws are supposed to protect the victim’s identity in cases and limit the ability for her past sexual activity to be brought into evidence. According to Karen Steinhauser, a Family Law and Criminal Defense attorney in Colorado, at the time of the Bryant hearing, rape shield laws didn’t apply to preliminary hearings in the state, which is why Mackey could push the envelope so far. Now they do. "
Basically, what we think of "rape shield" laws was very different in 2003-2004. It's been a long, long time since I did any sort of criminal work, so just thought I'd throw this out there. Here is the link: https://thinkprogress.org/the-legacy-of-the-kobe-bryant-rape-case-6a42f159be7b/
What's really hard is what to do. Daughter has thought about "going public". She's thought about pressing charges. I am ALL IN on whatever she decides to do. But we have talked about how if she "goes public" or presses charges, she's in for a world of pain, a terrible backlash from other people (friends of this kid for example) and lawyers and such. And...is she ready for all that? She loses control of the narrative. Her character will get attacked. It will be brutal.Appreciate you @Mooch and @BaseballJones for sharing the stories. I cannot fathom what it must be like to go through something like that.
The personal stories like yours, TSC, and LuckSox have made me look back on my own posts & thank you for the opportunity to do so.
Unless she lives under a rock, she's going to find out about Kobe's past in the next few days. If you want to tell her, you should soon or she's going to hear it from someone else.What's really hard is what to do. Daughter has thought about "going public". She's thought about pressing charges. I am ALL IN on whatever she decides to do. But we have talked about how if she "goes public" or presses charges, she's in for a world of pain, a terrible backlash from other people (friends of this kid for example) and lawyers and such. And...is she ready for all that? She loses control of the narrative. Her character will get attacked. It will be brutal.
I very much want justice. Very much. But I care more about my daughter than I care about justice. I come from a Sicilian family and I'd really really like to handle this old school. If you get my meaning.
But Kobe's death has just brought all this rushing right back to the forefront of my mind. Of course I feel awful for his family. I cannot imagine what they're going through. Losing him and especially his daughter. Unfathomable. Nothing but total sympathy for them. But the Kobe rape case is a glaring example of why it's so difficult for my daughter to seek and get justice. Which makes this so complicated for me. Like I said...I'm not even sure I should mention this part of his life to her.
Just to echo, I found this an excellent and thought-provoking rundown of the difficulties and how we all think about celebrity and legacy. Thanks for posting it.The parallels with “now is not the time to discuss gun control” are all there: it will never be the right time. Now is the wrong time because he just died. In a week it will be the wrong time because it’s the funeral. In two weeks it will be the wrong time because why are you bringing this up now it’s old news and irrelevant.
I thought Jill Filipovic’s piece on it was really good. I haven’t see the NYT obit but if it omits the rape that’s journalistic malpractice
https://jill.substack.com/p/kobe-bryant-and-complicated-legacies