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Jurassic World 3: Where the Dinosaurs have Quad Injuries and Hate Their Shoe Deals

Discussion in 'Mark Blount's Port Cellar: Celtics Forum' started by Sox Puppet, Apr 17, 2018.

  1. bosox79

    bosox79 Member SoSH Member

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    8,890
    The Grizz would have 0 titles had they not traded Pau Gasol too. I don't know how you can complain about this trade and be ok with Danny Ainge helping the Pistons win a title.

    Although the Pistons did beat the Lakers that year.
     
  2. Papelbon's Poutine

    Papelbon's Poutine Homeland Security SoSH Member

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    17,112
    So get nothing at all when he walks and goes there next year to, what?...spite them and delay it a year?

    The Lakers with or without KL aren't winning a title this year. Get the best deal you can and call it a day. Trades should be made to better your own franchise, not to worry about how much it helps the other side.
     
  3. BigSoxFan

    BigSoxFan Member SoSH Member

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    Woj saying that Danny is keeping his top 5 guys off limits in any Kawhi discussions. Obviously, that’s the starting lineup of Horford, Tatum, Hayward, Brown, and Kyrie. He said Celtics favored a “pick heavy” deal along with the necessary salaries, which basically means that Smart has to be involved if Jaylen isn’t. Spurs are in a really tough spot here.
     
  4. ElUno20

    ElUno20 Member SoSH Member

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    3,138
    I disagree. When you're a smaller market or non super power team, I do believe there is real value to your fanbase in a non super franchise team winning the title.
     
  5. In my lifetime

    In my lifetime Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    863
    I like the approach. Treat it as a rental only and if things change, great. I doubt any of us would not be all in on an offer of Rozier, Smart, Morris, filler 1, filler 2, Sac pick, Memphis pick and Clipper pick. Doubt that gets it done, but the visions in my head of the C lineup after that move makes my morning.
     
    #1055 In my lifetime, Jul 5, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2018
  6. chilidawg

    chilidawg Member SoSH Member

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    1,059
    For a rental? I'm certainly not "all in". You've emptied your bench for a guy who's great, but didn't play last year and is at a position of strength.
     
  7. Koufax

    Koufax Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    4,173
    For a rental I don't include the Sac pick and I don't give up more than 2 players. If there are 2 players, I don't include the Memphis pick. A rental is of very limited value.
     
  8. Jimbodandy

    Jimbodandy Member SoSH Member

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    2,242
    Same.

    Guy was a difference maker. Maybe still is, but that's unknown for sure. Only one year? Empty bench and give away all three picks? No thanks.
     
  9. Marbleheader

    Marbleheader Dope Dope

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    10,030
    I wouldn't include all the picks for a rental, especially one that missed almost an entire season. Either Sac or Memphis and a couple of your own picks plus Smart, etc.
     
  10. BigSoxFan

    BigSoxFan Member SoSH Member

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    I’ll play devil’s advocate here. I certainly don’t include the Sac pick but I might for Memphis and LAC. If you make the trade, your bench would still have Baynes, Theis, Williams, either Hayward or Brown, Wanamaker, and you’d have the MLE to get a better backup PG.

    Horford / Baynes
    Tatum / Theis
    Kawhi / Semi
    Brown / Hayward
    Kyrie / MLE / Wanamaker

    The bench would not be a concern at all for me in this situation. It would be trading a valuable pick for a guy who has a decent chance of leaving.
     
  11. MillarTime

    MillarTime Member SoSH Member

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    If it's rental, I'm fine giving up the requisite players and the Clips pick + the Memphis pick or the Sac pick....not both. Agree with BSF...bench should be fine. Hayward get pushed to 6th man (which may be best for him out of the gate any way), you use MLE to get another guard, and your bigs are unchanged. Plus, your already a major destination for mid-season buy-out guys.
     
  12. Koufax

    Koufax Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    The fact that the Celtics would still have a decent bench is not something that increases KL's value. His value for one season, with his very public and strong desire to go LA when his contract is up, is quite limited. So of course is the value of any player that the Celtics can't retain for more than a year, which makes one of the guards available. But you don't empty the cupboards for a rental, and giving up Sac would be a big mistake; giving up Memphis could also come back to haunt us, but it is something I would consider.
     
  13. BigSoxFan

    BigSoxFan Member SoSH Member

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    Exactly my opinion. The addition of Kawhi bumps either Hayward or Brown to the bench, which more than negates the loss of Smart or Rozier. The MLE would then be used to replace the other one. With the addition of Kawhi, we would no longer really need Marcus Morris so he becomes incredibly expendable. Thus, to me, the only risk you really run is Kawhi leaving after a year. This risk is too great to include the Sac pick but I think I roll the dice on the Memphis one since that could very well be a late lotto pick in a so-so draft this year. I would also include the Clips pick and, if it doesn't convey, allow it to turn into a future Celtics pick. Thus, my offer would be:

    Smart S&T
    Rozier
    Morris
    Filler
    MEM pick
    LAC/BOS pick

    From the Spurs' perspective, Woj mentioned that they wanted future value as well as guys who could help them win now. Obviously, Smart/Rozier/Morris would make them a better team in the short-term and they'd have a valuable pick in Memphis to build for the future. This is the absolute most I would offer from the Celtics' perspective and there's no way LA tops that. Philly could probably come close if they offered up Saric/Covington/Miami 2021.
     
  14. nighthob

    nighthob Member SoSH Member

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    No way I'm giving up two lottery picks for a rental. I doubt Boston does either.
     
  15. DavidTai

    DavidTai Member SoSH Member

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    I also think there's some value in refusing to trade to the Lakers specifically because that would only embolden other players to pull this crap (and the media too... I seem to remember similar bullcrap about Kevin Love and Demar Derozan.). It already cost Indiana Paul George; why encourage this trend?

    I suspect if this trend had been around 10 years ago, we'd be hearing Paul Pierce to the Lakers rumors all the time back then.
     
  16. HomeRunBaker

    HomeRunBaker bet squelcher SoSH Member

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    It isn't spite. It is not providing one of your primary competitors and long-time hated rival the personnel for them to create a dynasty. It isn't only about absolute value......relative value in the marketplace is major factor as well and shouldn't be discounted. We will see if Pop and Buford value it as much as myself and some others here too. God I love the offseason!
     
  17. pjheff

    pjheff Member SoSH Member

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    Could Monroe still be signed and traded as salary ballast with Rozier, Morris, Yabusele and picks?
     
  18. the moops

    the moops Member SoSH Member

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    I am not sure how anyone is comparing the SAC pick and MEM pick as if they are interchangeable. IMO the SAC pick is far far more valuable. It conveys next year, SAC is terrible, and the small chance that it is #1 is way less than MEM falls 1-8 or makes the playoffs .
     
  19. OurF'ingCity

    OurF'ingCity Member SoSH Member

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    2,550
    One way to gauge what the Celtics may think fair value for Kawhi is is to compare what they gave up for Kyrie in a very similar situation: namely a starting PG with significant injury issues and only a year left on his contract, a lottery pick, a lower-end starter with pros and cons (Jae Crowder), a non-lottery first round pick (Zizic) and the throw-in of a second-rounder after the controversy over IT's injury.

    Given the fact that Kyrie had two years left on his deal and Kawhi now has only one, I would think something like what BigSoxFan proposes above would probably be the absolute maximum the C's would be willing to offer (with some potential tweaking). Much depends on the Spurs' assessment of Smart - if they don't think he would fit their system they have no reason to want him on a multi-year deal. And, of course, Smart would have to be willing to go to San Antonio as well which I'm not necessarily sure he would be even if the alternative is returning to Boston on the QO and testing the waters again next year in a more favorable free agent climate.
     
  20. The Social Chair

    The Social Chair Member SoSH Member

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    Kawhi is a top 5 player. Kyrie is in the 10 - 20 range. Not apples to apples.
     
  21. snowmanny

    snowmanny Well-Known Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    It depends on what you define as making your team better. Is 45 wins better than 37 wins? Not really. Making a great team starts with great players. Does what LA is offering give some chance at leading to drafting/acquiring/developing a top 30 player? If not, it doesn’t really matter if LA marginally makes the best offer. If LA offers Ingram and a possible lottery pick (acquired through a third party) and Phila doesn’t offer Saric and MIA 2021 and Boston doesn’t offer SAC or Brown that’s another story.
     
  22. BigSoxFan

    BigSoxFan Member SoSH Member

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    No, but it's a reasonable proxy for a potential transaction that doesn't have a whole lot of comps. Kawhi also comes with more injury concerns, a shorter contract, and greater signability concerns, which helps to even up the comparison between a top 5 guy and a top 15-20 one.

    The Spurs clearly aren't going to get much value for Kawhi so it'll be interesting to see what they do. I think the offer I listed above would be a home run for them given the situation but I doubt Danny is even offering it up. My guess is that the starting 5, Sac, and Mem are all off limits so the Spurs probably don't have much incentive to engage at this time.
     
  23. Jimbodandy

    Jimbodandy Member SoSH Member

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    I doubt that either Danny or Pop would waste each other's time if the starters AND both great picks are off the table. Maybe they aren't talking anymore.

    But if Kawhi is fully healthy and willing to play in Boston, a year of his production has value. One of those picks could be on the table.

    I'm against some of these mega packages of multiple high picks plus Smart and Morris and Rozier and...

    I'm firmly against any deal involving Brown, Tatum or Kyrie for one year of KL.

    But there are many shades of gray between those deals and "fuck it, he's a rental". A full year of healthy, happy Kawhi would be awesome. Maybe Memphis is in play. We don't know what Danny knows.
     
  24. Marbleheader

    Marbleheader Dope Dope

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    10,030
    Pick heavy can also include a couple of their own picks that would be late 1st plus LAC pick and Smart and Morris.
     
  25. BigSoxFan

    BigSoxFan Member SoSH Member

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    Agreed. We don't really know Danny's level of interest but I'm sure he places a good amount of value on Kawhi's potential on court production as well as the benefit that Tatum and Brown would receive from going up against a DPOY caliber player in practice every day. But Kawhi is such an unknown right now that he's almost surely not offering up any top assets. We're definitely in a stalemate right now.

    You'd think there would be an opportunity for the Clippers to swoop in with a Harris/Robinson/future pick offer. Spurs get a solid SF that they can plug into their lineup and potentially re-sign longterm, a decent prospect in Robinson, and a future pick.
     
  26. bosockboy

    bosockboy Member SoSH Member

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    9,854
    I wonder if the Clips would be fearful of the risk of Kawhi changing locker rooms next season. Would be humiliating in the LA marketplace.
     
  27. Koufax

    Koufax Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    4,173
    Since KL let word out that he's not eager to play with LeBron, the Clippers are in the catbird seat as the only team with a solid chance to re-sign him. So yes, they have the inside track by far since for them it is not necessarily a rental.
     
  28. BigSoxFan

    BigSoxFan Member SoSH Member

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    Seems like the most reasonable destination to me. Kawhi gets LA but not the mass attention of playing for the Lakers that he likely doesn't want, Pop gets to tweak the Lakers by sending him to the Clippers, and Spurs get a plug-and-play SF in Harris that they need along with a couple other assets.
     
  29. djbayko

    djbayko Member SoSH Member

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    7,617
    Well, Woj has a conflicting report that KL wants to play with Lebron in LA. I'd side with him over Stephen A. Smith.
     
  30. HowBoutDemSox

    HowBoutDemSox Member SoSH Member

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    2,978
    Certainly conflicting info out there, but to be fair, Shams is also saying Kwahi is more open to the Clippers (and 76ers):

    https://sports.yahoo.com/report-kawhi-leonard-more-open-180003185.html
     
  31. djbayko

    djbayko Member SoSH Member

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  32. Sam Ray Not

    Sam Ray Not Member SoSH Member

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    4,827
    Tobias Harris + Shai Gilgeous-Alexander + Sam Dekker.

    Get 'er done, Jerry West!
     
  33. PaulinMyrBch

    PaulinMyrBch Don't touch his dog food Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Maybe I've missed it if it has been discussed, but I would think a sign and trade would provide the most value to the Spurs. Maybe the relationship is so bad they can't engage in those types of discussions with Kawhi/agent, but if they are looking to get back real value, they need to find a way to offer Kawhi as more than a 1 year rental. I haven't heard any speculation of that in the news, just speculation of where he might like to play.
     
  34. cheech13

    cheech13 Member SoSH Member

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    873
    He's still under contract for one more year so a sign-and-trade doesn't become an option until next summer. At that point both LA teams, Brooklyn, and New York (and others) will all have the space to sign him outright. Spurs don't have the kind of leverage to wait this out a year. Plus sign-and-trades are relatively rare under the new CBA because there is little financial benefit for the player to agree (since they can only get four years instead of five on a new deal) and it hard caps the acquiring team.
     
  35. mcpickl

    mcpickl Member SoSH Member

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    2,871
    Shai signed yesterday, so Jerry wouldn't be able to get that 'un done for a month.
     
  36. mcpickl

    mcpickl Member SoSH Member

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    2,871
    Those picks are unlikely to be heavy enough.
     
  37. Papelbon's Poutine

    Papelbon's Poutine Homeland Security SoSH Member

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    They’re not giving them the personnel to create a dynasty. For one thing, even with KL and LBJ, the team isn’t going to be a dynasty, not likely to even win a ring and trading him there and extracting a solid package of young players and picks I’d argue hurts them more than helps. If they got, say - Two of Kuzma/Ingram/Ball and a couple picks a few years out once Lebron declines, that straps LA out for future talent and they’re left going after ring chasers on short deals in an offseason we expect to be lucrative. And Lebron doesn’t have enough run left in him to create a dynasty to begin with, assuming we are using the same definition.

    And I’m not sure how I’m discounting relative market value - for one, no one is giving the dream offer he supposedly asked for, since he’s a rental. There’s not many teams in he mix. And on top of that, he’s a malcontent and has the injury clouded in mystery. We’ve had more than one doctor here site that the injury listed doesn’t jive with him being out so long. KL may not be KL anymore.

    I think it’s really dumb and short sighted to say ‘I’m not trading this guy to that team, we hate them’ for no other reason than a rivalry. We can debate about what package is worth it, but the pie in the sky ideas and the ‘no way in hell’ scenarios are, yes, spite. I’m sure Pop is just negotiating and is pissed at KL so wants to let him twist in the wind, but I doubt he’s giving a shit about his fan base hating the Lakers, at least so deeply that he’ll just sit tight and let him walk end of year. Ymmv.
     
  38. PaulinMyrBch

    PaulinMyrBch Don't touch his dog food Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    8,184
    Thanks, that makes sense.
     
  39. OurF'ingCity

    OurF'ingCity Member SoSH Member

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    It also bears keeping in mind when considering what the Celtics would give up for KL that we went through this situation last year with Paul George (OKC got him for a one-year "rental" before bolting to the Lakers and then, lo and behold, he stayed with OKC) so it's not like we don't have examples of players changing their mind after a year of playing with a team they like. Put another way, there is a 0% chance the Celtics sign Kawhi next year if they don't trade for him this year, but there is a greater than zero chance the Celtics sign Kawhi next year if they do trade for him this year. That extra chance is worth something; how much depends of course on how high the Celtics think that chance is, how willing they'll be to go way over the luxury tax next year if necessary, etc. But I don't think it's fair to just take for granted that any Kawhi trade would necessarily be for a one-year rental.
     
  40. Sox Puppet

    Sox Puppet Member SoSH Member

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    Latest news is that Kawhi doesn't want to play with LeBron, or in LA, or with a superteam. According to Woj,

    and according to Shams,

    Seems like someone is whispering some pretty stupid and contradictory advice into Kawhi's ear, or else he seriously doesn't know what he actually wants. So glad that we appear to be passing on him and this whole circus.
     
  41. Ed Hillel

    Ed Hillel Wants to be startin somethin SoSH Member

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    20,725
    Oh man, the Clippers would be ideal on so many levels. Make it so, Captain.
     
  42. cheech13

    cheech13 Member SoSH Member

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    It got lost in the frenzy of free agency, but after the NBA draft Brian Windhorst said on Zach Lowe's podcast that there was no relationship between Kawhi and Lebron and that he wasn't aware of any desire from either side to play together. There is a lot of info swirling in the media about what Kawhi does or does not want and none of it seems to be coming from Kawhi or his agent. I think a lot of these media outlets are being played by people with ulterior motives.
     
  43. Montana Fan

    Montana Fan Well-Known Member Silver Supporter SoSH Member

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    7,800
    If the Spurs sit tight, will pressure increase on Kawhi? Following his meeting with Popovich, word was that he doesn't want to enter the Spurs locker room again. Might the thought that he's not going to be traded, lead him to talk to teams like the Celts and Sixers about an extension if they can get him out of San Antonio?
     
  44. MillarTime

    MillarTime Member SoSH Member

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    Agreed. After seeing those reports, would not bang.
     
  45. AimingForYoko

    AimingForYoko Member SoSH Member

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    Kawhi needs to fire his Uncle before I'd even want to take a chance. No thanks.

    His mum too.
     
    #1095 AimingForYoko, Jul 5, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2018
  46. BigSoxFan

    BigSoxFan Member SoSH Member

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    By the time we list everything that’s been said and look for the remaining teams, we’ll be left with like Detroit or something. I’m not reading too much into them. If you take these reports at face value, Philly should be all over this.
     
  47. Tony C

    Tony C Dope Dope

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    In the Lakers thread all the posts are about how Pops is screwing the Lakers. Funny how the team under discussion changes the consensus point of departure.

    But I agree fully. Pops/the Spurs...love 'em, but whatever happened with Kawhi they are the ones in the tightest spot here. And whoever it was who wrote the article at ESPN today (Lowe? Can't remember) was right: every day that goes by the Spurs are in a tougher position.

    Agree with this, as well. Pops is in a tough position and is trying to make the best of it -- he's not out to screw the Lakers (or the Celts). They're just in a crappy position because of whatever has pissed off Kawhi. My own take is the Spurs should be and should have been much more aggressive in re trading Kawhi. Before the draft so they could control draft picks they'd acquire would have been better. At this rate potential suitors are getting fewer and more constrained and they're nearing the point where they'll either have to just let him walk or accept less...way less than the rather ridiculous demands that are being rumored and that seem, frankly, pie in the sky.
     
  48. lovegtm

    lovegtm Member SoSH Member

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    One thing that seems clear out of this is that Kawhi himself doesn't really have a clear idea of what he wants.

    He wants a big shoe contract, but doesn't want to change his personality. He wants to be near home, but he doesn't want too much attention as a result. I have no doubt that the people closest to him are pulling him in multiple directions as well.

    Contrast this to Kyrie, who knew exactly what he wanted, and had thought out clear ways to get it. He wanted to play for a well-run franchise or close to home in MSG. He had the shoe part figured out, as well as the persona needed to sell shoes.

    None of this makes Kawhi a bad person, as I'm sure we've all been through periods where everything feels fuzzy and we don't know which path to pursue. It's just rare to see that process play out in public this way.
     
  49. BigSoxFan

    BigSoxFan Member SoSH Member

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    Yup. Kawhi’s a weird cat and his complete silence isn’t helping. I kind of respect it in a way but I also feel bad for the Spurs here. They did everything right. They traded George freaking Hill for a pick that became an MVP caliber player right as Duncan, Ginobili, and Parker were aging out. Kawhi was basically what Len Bias was supposed to be for the Celtics (sorry....). And now it’s all gone because of some injury dispute. Really is too bad.
     
  50. southshoresoxfan

    southshoresoxfan Member SoSH Member

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    5,165
    What were the odds that Kawhi Leonard of all superstars would be pulling this?
     

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