Joe Posnanski: Lord of Lists

John Marzano Olympic Hero

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Wasn't Posnanski "there" for most of the Morris starts, or does Heyman mean that every voter has to literally be there in the ballpark for every one of Jack Morris' starts? Because if that's the case, the only person who's going to vote for Jack Morris, is Jack Morris.
 

mandro ramtinez

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There are no pure villains in Posnanski's eyes just as there are no true heroes. Instead he presents humanity in all of its simple and often complex forms.
Yet when Posnanski calls out a villain, he points the finger at Murray Chass and any reader who knows anything about Murray Chass' antagonism can find almost no reason to dispute Posnanski's characterization.
 

RingoOSU

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From reading his Mattingly vs Bagwell defense it looks like he just has a gut reaction then after several years, finally decides to research his candidates. Terrible behavior from a voter.
 

Zedia

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I think Heyman calls out Joe Pos in his anti-Blyleven Hall piece (which is pretty crappy. His point amounts to "I don't go by numbers. But my numbers are better than yours." To wit, he supports Jack Morris "You just had to be there" over Blyleven, and then goes on to point to Morris' fewer career wins as a key reason for his support.)
There's no shortage of guys making fun of Heyman on the internets, but I would assume he's referring to Rich Lederer at Baseball Analysts (for great stuff like this).
 

DieHardSoxFan1

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There's no shortage of guys making fun of Heyman on the internets, but I would assume he's referring to Rich Lederer at Baseball Analysts (for great stuff like this).
From Heyman's article on Bert:

Blyleven's total of 287 wins is still impressive, but his career winning percentage of .536 isn't spectacular, and while he was hampered by often playing for non-contenders, the teams he pitched for were close to .500 overall, which isn't terrible.

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/jon_heyman/12/20/hall.blyleven/index.html#ixzz18h6lwLf8
Some of Blyleven's supporters will say that wins don't define a pitcher and aren't always a fair measure of a pitcher's worth, as they are dependent in large part on a pitcher's run support or lack thereof. I did promote Felix Hernandez for the Cy Young, but I still see winning as the ultimate goal in each game, and Blyleven didn't win all that many more games than he lost.

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/jon_heyman/12/20/hall.blyleven/index.html#ixzz18h7D5Xjc
So, Blyleven won a lot of games, which is great, but also lost a fair number of games, which isn't great. He played on some mediocre teams, which hurt his case, but winning is still the priority, even though I liked Felix's Cy Young candidacy because win-loss record doesn't tell you anything about a pitcher's performance.

In conclusion, winning is the most important aspect of pitching, and Byleven won 287 games, which only amounts to a few more games than he lost. But he lost because he played on mediocre teams, but some of them weren't all that mediocre, so he should have won more.

Sheeeesh. Could the guys at FJM decipher that backasswards logic?
 

Leather

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From Heyman's article on Bert:





So, Blyleven won a lot of games, which is great, but also lost a fair number of games, which isn't great. He played on some mediocre teams, which hurt his case, but winning is still the priority, even though I liked Felix's Cy Young candidacy because win-loss record doesn't tell you anything about a pitcher's performance.

In conclusion, winning is the most important aspect of pitching, and Byleven won 287 games, which only amounts to a few more games than he lost. But he lost because he played on mediocre teams, but some of them weren't all that mediocre, so he should have won more.

Sheeeesh. Could the guys at FJM decipher that backasswards logic?
He also points to All Star Games as a metric ("two games is an awfully low number for a guy who pitched 22 seasons"), and claims that he was "never dominant", but only bases that on Cy Young voting, and not on actual statistics. So, in 1973 when he went 20-17, with 9 Shut Outs and a 2.52 ERA with 258 SOs over 325 Innings, THAT wasn't dominant? There's no way he should have been 7th in Cy Young voting. Just nuts.

Also, he claims "He simply outlasted almost everyone else and kept pitching effectively into his 40s." Blyleven had ONE SEASON where he was in his 40's, 1992, when he was 41 (he missed 1991). Meanwhile, the holy Jack Morris retired at the nubile age of... 39. Oh, and Morris never got higher than 3rd in CY voting either.
 

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I love where Pos defends McGwire and Bagwell by saying they were clutch and you had to be there to appreciate their greatness. Oh, wait...he didn't do that at at all. He simply cited defensible statistical arguments that support the idea that both of these guys (as well as his other votes) deserve to be in the HOF.

Its pretty funny how, when you remove the character/calm eyes/intangibles arguments, the stats (assuming you agree with them) pretty clearly tell you who stands out. I think this piece also confirms how Pos will vote when Bonds is up for election as well...
 

joyofsox

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The HoF thread is locked, so I'll put this snip here. Barry Stanton is the ESPN news editor who did not include Alomar and Blyleven on his HoF ballot, but did cast votes Mattingly, Surhoff, and the Bam-tino.

From 2002:
In Wednesday's edition of the Westchester Journal News, the paper announced that sports columnist Barry Stanton has resigned. In Stanton's November 2 story of a mentally-challenged high school football player from OH, "numerous sentences and phrases ... were identical or similar to those that first appeared" in an October 31 column by Joe Posnanski of the K.C. Star.
 

HoyaSoxa

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Today's Red Klotz entry about the one time he beat the Globetrotters is outstanding - writing on par with the Springsteen piece, I think, though certainly not nearly as personal. The man is worth the price of my monthly internet fees all by himself.
 

CJM

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Today's Red Klotz entry about the one time he beat the Globetrotters is outstanding - writing on par with the Springsteen piece, I think, though certainly not nearly as personal. The man is worth the price of my monthly internet fees all by himself.
An excellent piece. I also think it highlights an important aspect of what Dehere said earlier. Unlike the Springsteen piece, the Red Klotz piece is really, really funny. There are dry witticisms and gentle jabs all over the place. But even in his jokes, Poz seems very empathetic and humane. Someone, I can't remember who, said that comedy is the only socially-acceptable form of violence people perpetrate against each other day-to-day. Looking at Simmons' work (though the comparison is increasingly useless), there is a real streak of meanness that runs throughout. This doesn't make him unfunny, but it is revealing.

Throughout the Klotz article Poz makes a number of jokes, each funny and none of them at the expense of Klotz, who seems like the human embodiment of a joke's butt. That Posnanski is able to both reveal the depth in the man without making him one of Bart's People is a testament to his ability.

Putting aside the fact that he is a "baseball writer" I am wracking my brain trying to think of contemporary writers or artists who have produced works with the same kind of consistent quality as Posnanski. Watterson maybe? Cormac McCarthy?

Its hard because even the best seem to have flat spots but each Pos piece that I've read is excellent in a seemingly effortless way. I wonder if the people who edit and read SI truly understand what it is they have here.
While I agree on his consistency, especially considering his massive output, it's difficult to put aside the fact that he's a baseball writer when comparing him to artists or other writers. Off the top of my head, Alice Munro has been putting out short stories for the better part of four decades that are nothing short of genius, and I can't think of any stinkers. The Coen Brothers have put out two bad movies in twenty-six years. Depending on how you feel about Treme, David Simon hasn't put out a bad piece of work in a decade. All three are operating in mediums and at levels that Posnanski will never come close to reaching. This isn't a knock on him at all -he's a truly remarkable writer, but I think it would be stretching things to say he's writing literature. In pure terms of consistency, though, he's deeply impressive.
 

PC Drunken Friar

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So...to you...JP has become some sort of hipster who begins to hates when something becomes very popular?

I agree tho...i knew what he was doing here after the 3rd paragraph
 

TFP

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I'll agree on this column, it's one of the first of his that I just gave up halfway through and skipped to the end to confirm my suspicions. I knew where he was going with it right away and it took WAY too long to get there.

Still, if that's going to be a "dud" for him, I think he's doing alright. Wasn't a terrible column by any means, just not up to usual lofty standards.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

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I don't think that Posnanski was trying to trick anyone with this column. It was an exercise in the futility of a small Hall and how Bob Costas' "Willie Mays Hall" is so subjective that it would be different from Peter Gammons' "Willie Mays Hall" or Al Roker's "Willie Mays Hall".

The point that he was making (and I know that you guys know this) is that the Hall of Fame is flawed, all of these types of things are, but it is the best one of the four majors. I don't think that it needs to be fixed by Bob Costas, Bill Simmons or anyone.
 

TFP

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In other news, he hits another one out of the park with a follow up to his excellent column about taking his daughter to Harry Potter World.

Katie the Prefect.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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In other news, he hits another one out of the park with a follow up to his excellent column about taking his daughter to Harry Potter World.

Katie the Prefect.
Fantastic article. I read this and I am moved. I remember Peter King working tales of his daughter's sports prowess into his columns and found them annoying and pointless. Joe's story is emotional and touching.
 

Seabass

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I loved this part:

I finally made the executive decision that I saw no reason whatsoever for them to believe that dinosaurs still roam the earth.

"It's a robot," I told them.

"Are you sure?" they asked.

"And I don't think Babe Ruth called his shot either," I said.
 

JimD

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I remember as a child desperately wanting something to make me feel connected -- for me it was sports. Sadly there was no Cleveland Indians world, unless you count the bleachers at old Municipal Stadium where factory workers drank schnapps from flasks and swore liberally and rubbed your head when the Indians actually scored.
I actually spit some water onto my keyboard laughing at this.

And then I finished reading and it got dusty in my office. I think it must be the onion fumes that waft in from the cafeteria through the air vents. Yeah.
 

Alternate34

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a lo0t of fawning over this column on the net today (like everyone has to say whatever JP writes is amazing...ugh) but I thought it was stupid and predictable. and about 2000 words too long.
Predictable yes. I don't think it was stupid. It wasn't his best work, certainly doesn't deserve fawning praise, but it was alright. It does a decent job attacking the idea of a small Hall, but only if you assume the person proposing it does so with righteous indignation or a level of certainty and arrogance that it would be easy to tell who was and wasn't a Hall of Famer.
 

shlincoln

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It does a decent job attacking the idea of a small Hall, but only if you assume the person proposing it does so with righteous indignation or a level of certainty and arrogance that it would be easy to tell who was and wasn't a Hall of Famer.
So your average Hall of Fame voter then?

And I agree, the Katie the Prefect piece was perfect.
 

Alternate34

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So your average Hall of Fame voter then?
See, I don't think that is true. You have a few, Heyman in particular, who are like that, but the voters did just put Blyleven in despite him starting with below 20% on his first ballot. That indiciates two things. First, a changing elctorate who are more open to stat arguments and second, a set of voters who may be inconsistent and misguided, but are not indignant and bull-headed.
 

JimBoSox9

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While I agree on his consistency, especially considering his massive output, it's difficult to put aside the fact that he's a baseball writer when comparing him to artists or other writers.

You know who else started out his career writing for the Kansas City Star? Ernest Hemingway.




*I'm not trying to equate the two or even start a discussion about them, but the ease with which Pos can turn out a fantastic piece that is totally non-sports-related should really make it fairly easy to put aside the 'baseball writer' stigma when judging his body of work. The second coming of Mitch Albom he is most certainly not.
 

CJM

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You know who else started out his career writing for the Kansas City Star? Ernest Hemingway.




*I'm not trying to equate the two or even start a discussion about them, but the ease with which Pos can turn out a fantastic piece that is totally non-sports-related should really make it fairly easy to put aside the 'baseball writer' stigma when judging his body of work. The second coming of Mitch Albom he is most certainly not.
He's absolutely churning out high-quality writing at a remarkable pace, and this piece was another example of him writing prose that's earnest and effective without being manipulative or maudlin. I'm not trying to belittle what Posnanski is doing at all- in the realm of sports writers (of which I'm aware of a few) and bloggers (of which I'm aware of fewer), he's untouchable.

But DeJesus said that he's might be turning out as consistent and high-quality a work as anyone he can think of in terms of contemporary artists. In that regard, if we take away the "baseball" and just leave "writer", he's in the Hall of the Very Good, but certainly not near the best. Taking his output and type of writing into account, I'd say he's just above David Sedaris. I realize this is entirely subjective, but when I read that people think he's the best thing going right now, I get that old snobby feeling that people just aren't reading a great deal else.

Hemingway's a good counter-example. He went to the KC Star out of high school, then went to war, then started writing seriously. Joe Posnanski is a Senior Writer at SI who occasionally blogs about his personal life. That makes him a "baseball writer" more than anything else; and a "blogger" next. I don't mean them as perjorative terms, but that is what he is.
 

Dehere

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Pos is primarily a chronicler of actual day-to-day events. I don't know that you can fairly compare him to artists who are able to create fiction on a schedule that they can control (in varying degrees).

I think you can only fairly compare Posnanski to people who covered a beat day in and day out for a number of years, whether that beat was sports or politics or the general life of a city. I'm thinking of guys like Jimmy Breslin, Mike Royko, Red Smith. In that category, I increasingly feel that Pos is the best of my lifetime and on his way to being acknowledged as the greatest ever.

I also tend to give Joe some extra credit for the fact that he's made so much great work available free of charge on a platform that is still in its infancy. I think this is why comparisons between Posnanski and Simmons are inevitable: Simmons was the first guy to intuitively grasp and exploit the potential of the internet, and now Pos has done him one better by taking the advantages of a blog (immediacy, informality, no restrictions on length) and infusing them with much more heart and artistry than Simmons has shown to this point.

For better and for worse the internet is the most dynamic medium out there right now, and for the last two years Joe Posnanski has in my view been the single best thing on it.**

**(non-porn division).
 

CJM

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Pos is primarily a chronicler of actual day-to-day events. I don't know that you can fairly compare him to artists who are able to create fiction on a schedule that they can control (in varying degrees).

I think you can only fairly compare Posnanski to people who covered a beat day in and day out for a number of years, whether that beat was sports or politics or the general life of a city. I'm thinking of guys like Jimmy Breslin, Mike Royko, Red Smith. In that category, I increasingly feel that Pos is the best of my lifetime and on his way to being acknowledged as the greatest ever.

I also tend to give Joe some extra credit for the fact that he's made so much great work available free of charge on a platform that is still in its infancy. I think this is why comparisons between Posnanski and Simmons are inevitable: Simmons was the first guy to intuitively grasp and exploit the potential of the internet, and now Pos has done him one better by taking the advantages of a blog (immediacy, informality, no restrictions on length) and infusing them with much more heart and artistry than Simmons has shown to this point.

For better and for worse the internet is the most dynamic medium out there right now, and for the last two years Joe Posnanski has in my view been the single best thing on it.**

**(non-porn division).
I agree and disagree. He's certainly taken the medium of blogging/internet writing and achieved a very high level of prose at a near-unimaginable output. He's using its freedoms (and providing it free, which is very internet age) to a degree that puts him above and beyond anyone I can think of, though my knowledge only extends so far as the Gladwells, Simmonses, AV Clubs, and other pretty well-traveled corners of the internet.

But I think comparing him to other writers is fair, especially because of the freedoms of blogging. He controls every aspect of his writing. There's no agent telling him its unmarketable; no editor telling him it needs more relevancy; no publishing house with a year lag time between completion and print; no bookseller telling him it's not getting pushed because Palin's new book is out. He doesn't have to contend with a newspapers declining advertising revenue or a magazine's decreased circulation. He used his previous platform at the KC Star to vault to SI, which has given him a natural audience for his blog, which is by far the biggest hurdle to internet writing (because when it's free, you're demanding people pay with their time and attention). In every sense he sets his own schedule. He doesn't make money off it, which is the disadvantage to stepping from the institutions of print, but in every other facet he's more free to present his writing in unadulterated form.

He's adopted a new and dynamic medium and put his mark on it, even infused it with, like you said, 'heart and artistry'. I can't stress enough that I admire the man's work. But if I were being honest and said, "Is Joe Posnanski's writing the best thing you've read in the past few years", the answer would be no. On the internet, yes.
 

BucketOBalls

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He's adopted a new and dynamic medium and put his mark on it, even infused it with, like you said, 'heart and artistry'. I can't stress enough that I admire the man's work. But if I were being honest and said, "Is Joe Posnanski's writing the best thing you've read in the past few years", the answer would be no. On the internet, yes.
Best sportswriter I've read in the last few years...I think so actually. He is to sportswriting what Asimov was to Science Fiction(in relation to writing also). He's limited by the format of course, as are all writers, but within it, he is very, very good.

Q:What is the single best thing an artist can do to improve the quality of their art?
A:Die.
 

4 6 3 DP

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http://joeposnanski.si.com/2011/01/14/si-sports-fact-of-the-day/?eref=sihp

Just highlighting this one. Great stuff.
 

johnmd20

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He's adopted a new and dynamic medium and put his mark on it, even infused it with, like you said, 'heart and artistry'. I can't stress enough that I admire the man's work. But if I were being honest and said, "Is Joe Posnanski's writing the best thing you've read in the past few years", the answer would be no. On the internet, yes.
Madness. Your honesty is dishonest.
 

The Belly Itcher

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I will say this: I don't read sports-related writing these days as much as I used to (I'm comparing to 10 years ago, for example). In fact, there is no one I can say I follow regularly by a strict definition. That is, until a few weeks ago. I had a lazy weekend with nothing to do (rare these days) and I began reading some of his Hall of Fame posts. From thereafter, I was hooked. I devoured his blog-- I'm talking going back two years into his archive. I didn't read everything, mind you (they are curiously long, as advertised), but I read A LOT of them (including some non-sports related post, such as his take on The Marriage Ref, which I thought was extremely well done). Before I knew it, several hours had passed. (Incidentally, I remember reading a few of his posts over the years-- linked from SOSH-- but I never connected them together as being from the same writer.)

I think he's a fantastic writer in every sense of the word. As far as baseball goes, he's very knowledgeable, presents well-reasoned arguments, and generally seems to present himself as a thoughtful, curious and affable guy. Not to mention, his output his voluminous -- what a voracious writer?! I like all of this about him. When its all said and done, I frequent his blog regularly. And this is coming from a guy who really stumbled on to his work.

Now it could be because I don't know where to look these days, what with all of the interconnected tubes on the internets, but if someone could point me to comparable "sporty"-writers on the internet, I'd love to see them.
 

Dehere

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Loved Joe's blog post today titled "The First Goal". Required reading for anybody here who has a daughter.

I know some people around here are sick to death of comparisons between Posnanski and Simmons, but the contrast between Joe's piece today and the SImmons piece about his daughter rooting for the Lakers could hardly be more glaring. Either Simmons is just playing a character for his frat boy readership (plausible, IMO) or Pos has just got a much more mature perspective on fatherhood.
 

Number45forever

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Just came here to say that daughter piece made me want to thank my Dad for all he did for me growing up. Once again, this was a brilliant piece. Poz is the best there is right now, the comparison between this piece along with his piece on Harry Potter World to Simmons' daughter/Laker article is correct: Poz eats pieces of Simmons for breakfast. And...I'm a HUGE Simmons fan. Joe Poz is just on another plane.

He keeps teasing a post detailing his thoughts on the Beatles, which given how he writes Springsteen, could be legendary. I hope he gets around to it.
 

shepard50

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Loved Joe's blog post today titled "The First Goal". Required reading for anybody here who has a daughter.

I know some people around here are sick to death of comparisons between Posnanski and Simmons, but the contrast between Joe's piece today and the SImmons piece about his daughter rooting for the Lakers could hardly be more glaring. Either Simmons is just playing a character for his frat boy readership (plausible, IMO) or Pos has just got a much more mature perspective on fatherhood.

Thanks for the recommendation. Great read for a father of two girls. My favourite line:

I once videotaped her soccer game, which was not hard to do because the entire game she basically stood in one place talking with one of the other girls on the team. It was like filming "My Dinner with Andre."
 

The Belly Itcher

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Just came here to say that daughter piece made me want to thank my Dad for all he did for me growing up. Once again, this was a brilliant piece. Poz is the best there is right now, the comparison between this piece along with his piece on Harry Potter World to Simmons' daughter/Laker article is correct: Poz eats pieces of Simmons for breakfast. And...I'm a HUGE Simmons fan. Joe Poz is just on another plane.

He keeps teasing a post detailing his thoughts on the Beatles, which given how he writes Springsteen, could be legendary. I hope he gets around to it.
While reading through his archives, it quickly became apparent to me that he is a Bruce-o-phile. I forgive him. Otherwise, he has very good taste. :lol:
 

CJM

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Madness. Your honesty is dishonest.
I'm the last angry man, crusader for the little guy.

I was going to continue this argument about Posnanski's relative merits when compared to the vast sphere of other writers out there. Then I realized that it was a joy-killing venture of dubious value.

I can't remember ever reading Joe and thinking it was a waste of time. Of course, at times it's a great deal more than that, but for a guy handing it out often and for free, I think that's pretty high praise. He also occasionally kicks me in the paternal urges, which I appreciate and resent him for.

EDIT: And just to keep the links fresh - here's a few that combine sports and family: his SI write-up on John Green, the baseball scout who lost his daughter in the Tucson shootings, and his blog explanation of why he wrote the article. Both show his trademark ability to cut through the bullshit to tell a simple, human (and in this case tragic) story.
 

Number45forever

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http://joeposnanski.blogspot.com/2011/01/most-beautiful-word.html

Once again Joe absolutely nailed this piece. I don't know how he does it, but the personal stuff he writes like this post are so engaging and so relatable. And this is another reason why I'm thankful to my parents, because my Mom read to me and encouraged me to read pretty much constantly as I grew up. I know it made a difference, and I'm reminded why every day when I watch the idiots I work with stumble and fumble around the English language.

Joe Poz is on fire. It feels to me like the last two months of blog posts have been just out of this world good. I mean, even better than his normally high standards.
 

mandro ramtinez

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Joe's most recent piece looks at all of the hall of fame pitchers, groups all of them by the decade they were born in and compares all of the elected pitchers in that group along with pitchers born in that decade who didn't make the Hall. Joe's analysis is entertaining and insightful, as always. He notes that guys like Rick Reuschel, Dave Stieb and Tim Hudson have had much better careers than they are given credit for, which led me to some aimless meandering around baseball-reference. I just love how Joe's blog writing is so easily engaging and almost always drives my curiosity in some unexpected direction.

Joe's Hall of Fame pitcher review
 

nattysez

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Poz had a piece on the last page of the pre-SB SI issue with Goodell on the cover. It was the worst piece of writing of his that I've ever read. It was straight Rick Reilly crap in which Poz imagines that he's friends with athletes who he follows on Twitter. Everyone has an off-day, and that article was Poz's.
 

MyDaughterLovesTomGordon

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In the age of the internet, where space isn't a consideration for writing, the 500-800 word personal essay is becoming a truly dying artform. It's definitely true that it's harder to write well in short form than it is in long form, and it's hard not to get addicted to limitless space. Since Poz grew up in print, it's not like he only knows how to do the net, but I'm not surprised that, at this point, he would struggle in the short form. You have to be very focused, with a great idea, and execute it well for that back page to work. And it's easy to fall into schmaltzy hackdom there, no doubt.
 

JimD

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Poz had a piece on the last page of the pre-SB SI issue with Goodell on the cover. It was the worst piece of writing of his that I've ever read. It was straight Rick Reilly crap in which Poz imagines that he's friends with athletes who he follows on Twitter. Everyone has an off-day, and that article was Poz's.
You must not read much Rick Reilly. Poz's piece was harmless and worth a few chuckles. I thought it actually did a good job of highlighting how banal most tweets from big-time athletes really are.
 

ThePrideofShiner

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From Joe Posnanski's twitter:

@JPosnanski
Well, this has been a thrilling, emotional, tough and exhausting day. Announcement to follow soon.
Some guesses from the Twitterverse: Replacing Neyer, he's preggers, JoePos 2012, buying the KC Star.