Farrell hints at potential roster shake up
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You'll get no argument from me.Rasputin said:
As for Kelly (not Ras, everyone), I still have hope for him. I've been advocating for moving Clay for awhile, but his value keeps dropping so we're stuck with him and can only hope for the best. Masterson would be a good long man like Wakefield, imho. I'm good with Porcello, but Miley...ugh, I was hoping for much more (and my bar wasn't that high).
To this point, if you can get identical (lackluster) results from a callup, all things being equal I'd be more interested in giving those innings to them. If this season does appear to be heading in the wrong direction, I'd rather be giving those guys some experience. I really didn't love the Masterson signing, and he is what he is at this point, and I'm tired of Buchholz' consistently inconsistency.foulkehampshire said:
If its going to be heaping piles of suck, may as well have a potential for upside.
I'd say the lesson of Craig is don't make a bet on a player to reestablish value If you aren't going to commit to giving him the playing time he needs to do that.
I'd much rather have a Brock Holt fighting to become relevant than an Allen Craig fighting to maintain relevance in a part time role any day.
I'd much rather have a Brock Holt fighting to become relevant than an Allen Craig fighting to maintain relevance in a part time role any day.
Yaz4Ever said:
I also still have hope for Kelly. As a starter first and foremost, but as a bullpen guy if that doesn't work out.
But I don't see any real benefit to moving Clay Buchholz. We can't fill the rotation with young guys. He won't bring back much of anything right now. If he gets righted, he can be a weapon.
Also, I don't think Masterson's best role is as a long man, I think it's as a Roogy.
Uehara, Taz, Ogando, Barnes, Layne, Masterson and whichever of Breslow or Ross you hate less.
No we can't fill the rotation with young guys, but I do think Masterson offers us something that Wake offered. Like Wake, I doubt he'd be thrilled about being the long man out of the pen, but I still think that's Masterson's best role.
I wouldn't leave it up to who you hate less, cut bait on both Breslow and Ross and bring up ERod and Wright.
I wouldn't leave it up to who you hate less, cut bait on both Breslow and Ross and bring up ERod and Wright.
Yup. Would Masterson really have more value as a free agent if he goes onto the market as a terrible, failed starter the last two years or as a reinvented Darren O'Day type who can go more than 1 inning and who was effective in relief? It doesn't look like there's much chance that he escapes the former categorization now so maybe he should try for the latter.Yaz4Ever said:
Rasputin said:
And therein lies the Red Sox problem.
Holland, Davis, Herrera, Frazier, Hochevar, Finnegan it is not.
Yaz4Ever said:
I know. It sucks. If Breslow and Ross would both just pitch well we'd be golden.
But no, we're going to end up trading Carlos Asuaje or Sean Coyle for a lefty reliever come the deadline and moving Eduardo Rodriguez into the bullpen for the playoffs.
No, I did not have a straight face when I said "playoffs."
You know, if they do nothing but option Craig and Kelly and try some new blood in those two roles, it would be an improvement. Those two would get to work on their issues and other guys would get a chance to show us that they suck.
It's possible I'm not in a good place right now.
Plympton91 said:
I dunno, if Uehara, Taz, Ogando, Barnes, Layne, Masterson is the heart of our bullpen, the bullpen isn't the problem. It may not be the best in the league, but if the starters could go six routinely, scoring off the bullpen wouldn't be easy. Layne and Masterson would be devastating matchup guys, Uehara looks like he's back to his excellent self, Taz has been pretty reliable. You're basically complaining about Ogando and Barnes as 7th inning guys and that's lame.
I think Red Sox fans seriously overrate Tazawa. He's a nice pitcher, but when he's your top set up man, that means you lack a top set up man.
Tazawa is way down the list of problems. The back end of the pen is a comparative strength.
Count me as very much opposed to giving Shane Victorino the Rf job starting next week. I just don't see any reason to think he is one of our 3 best OFers now. Its been a long time since he was any good. I was in favor of giving Shane the first crack at it in April. We did that and he got hurt. He goes to the back of the line as far as I am concerned. We owe Shane nothing and it is a shame he has broken down but we can't afford to play him over Bradley or Castillo or even Holt now. I would rather Nava v RHPers now than Vic and my pissed offednesss at Nava right now is at an all-time high, right up there with Napoli and the SPs and just behind Craig. I hate to say it but Shane is deadwood now and we can't afford to placate the vets any longer IMO.
The OF of the near future should be either Hanley-Betts-Castillo (with Bradley) or Betts-Bradley-Castillo (with Hanley to Ib and Nava OR Vic on the bench). The sooner the Sox get to either of these options the better afaic.
Count me as very much opposed to giving Shane Victorino the Rf job starting next week. I just don't see any reason to think he is one of our 3 best OFers now. Its been a long time since he was any good. I was in favor of giving Shane the first crack at it in April. We did that and he got hurt. He goes to the back of the line as far as I am concerned. We owe Shane nothing and it is a shame he has broken down but we can't afford to play him over Bradley or Castillo or even Holt now. I would rather Nava v RHPers now than Vic and my pissed offednesss at Nava right now is at an all-time high, right up there with Napoli and the SPs and just behind Craig. I hate to say it but Shane is deadwood now and we can't afford to placate the vets any longer IMO.
The OF of the near future should be either Hanley-Betts-Castillo (with Bradley) or Betts-Bradley-Castillo (with Hanley to Ib and Nava OR Vic on the bench). The sooner the Sox get to either of these options the better afaic.
Rusney is 5 for 27 since coming back from injury and just started playing the field. He's probably still a couple weeks away from being ready, best case.
How long do Nava and Victorino stick around not producing if Castillo and Bradley play well at AAA? 2 weeks? We could be 10 out by then.
I like Danny Nava but he has looked almost Craigian this year. I can imagine a marginal role for him as a back up LF/1B this year, especially to supplement Napoli if Napoli continues to embarrass himself, but not unless Nava snaps the F out of it pronto. Victorino, Craig, and Nava each knew all off season they were on very short leashes this year and all 3 have come up very small. One or two at least should have been jettisoned in the off season, which never got done. Now it needs to be done mid season, so be it. It is time to refamilarize ourselves with the concept of sunk cost. Craig to AAA is the start, but surely can't be the end of the make over of the OF, which has been a difficult project for the Sox since 2013.
I like Danny Nava but he has looked almost Craigian this year. I can imagine a marginal role for him as a back up LF/1B this year, especially to supplement Napoli if Napoli continues to embarrass himself, but not unless Nava snaps the F out of it pronto. Victorino, Craig, and Nava each knew all off season they were on very short leashes this year and all 3 have come up very small. One or two at least should have been jettisoned in the off season, which never got done. Now it needs to be done mid season, so be it. It is time to refamilarize ourselves with the concept of sunk cost. Craig to AAA is the start, but surely can't be the end of the make over of the OF, which has been a difficult project for the Sox since 2013.
5 for 31 now, and two of the hits came against the dregs of the Mud Hens rotation.Bob Montgomery's Helmet Hat said:
Forget about it Jake, it's SoSHtown.
You could say the same thing about Vic and he costs a fair bit more than Nava. For the record, there's also nothing to suggest that JBJ is actually going to HIT this time around either and the time frame in which the Sox would have to make the call on whether to cut Nava vs demoting JBJ is probably in that SSS range where anything JBJ does do is to be taken with a grain of salt.moondog80 said:
MakMan44 said:
It makes plenty of sense. He is terrible on D, can't hit LHP pitching even a little bit, has no power, and is on the wrong side of whatever peak he had.
Nava has been a great story, and he had a nice role on the 2013 team, but hard to really worry about losing him at all. The only things he has going for him is that he hits left handed and can cover 1B in a pinch, but I'd give Bradley a chance over Nava given his age, defense, and at least a chance of some upside.
Adios Daniel. Thanks for the memories.
Vic hasn't shown a damn thing this season either, and he wasn't worth much more last season when he was healthy. If you're giving me a choice between the two, I'm taking Nava and it's not even close.
Nava's actually been decent this season on defense too, which gives some credential to his defensive improvements in 2014.
Nava's actually been decent this season on defense too, which gives some credential to his defensive improvements in 2014.
MakMan44 said:
Sure. There's no easy answer. But Vic does have more of a track record, and JBJ has youth and some upside. And both offer much more in the field. Nava, at his best, is still pretty one-dimensional. Even in his career year (2013) he wasn't really trusted enough to play even 50% of the time in the postseason. I don't think they're going to just give him another two months to find himself,
If Bradley and Castillo force themselves onto the roster I think you are left with a choice of one from Luis Jimenez, Shane Victorino or Daniel Nava as the 25th man. At the end of the day, it really doesn't matter much, certainly far less than how they deploy Ramirez-Betts-Bradley-Castillo-Holt-Napoli to cover OF and 1b. Nava (as a LHB who can play 1b too) still seems a better fit than Victorino to me, but I think a case could be made for Jimenez too.
MakMan44 said:
I'm not high on Vic either, it wouldn't bother me if they dumped him over Nava. As KillerB points out, Nava does at least "fit" better as someone who hits left handed and can play 1B. Victorino, if he could ever stay healthy, might have a bit more upside, though he's unlikely to ever see it.
I just don't see them dropping Vic right now. I know they should just consider him a sunk cost, but I still think its more likely Nava gets let go.
I actually prefer they cut Nava because Victorino is so unlikely to be healthy we will rarely see him. Out of sight, out of mind. If they keep Nava, we're stuck with him on the 25 man and actually getting playing time.
Eh, Nava is the 4th OF anyway. I just think he's more likely to remain healthy so you don't get caught in the awkward position where you have to bring up JBJ or Rusney as the 4th OF. I suppose there's Brentz as well, but it's not like he's an upgrade over Nava barring this current iteration.
Realistically, this is a stupid argument anyway. Changing up the 4th OF on the team isn't going to help the current issues at all.
Realistically, this is a stupid argument anyway. Changing up the 4th OF on the team isn't going to help the current issues at all.
The bullpen is fine.
The starters are awful - let's get EdRod up here. Not sure who is easier to replace given performance / roster moves / trade value. Maybe just send Masterson to the 'pen or let him go.
The position players are mostly OK, except that Nava / Victorino / Craig are awful. If Castillo is ready get him up here. Otherwise, getting JBJ up here is the right move in my opinion (can also take a shot on Brentz). Napoli has been bad but too early to panic on him in my opinion.
The most likely scenario though is that this season was over as soon as we lost Vasquez & Hanigan through little fault of Ben's. I'm already chalking this up to a lost season and am OK to turning into sellers again at the trade deadline..
The starters are awful - let's get EdRod up here. Not sure who is easier to replace given performance / roster moves / trade value. Maybe just send Masterson to the 'pen or let him go.
The position players are mostly OK, except that Nava / Victorino / Craig are awful. If Castillo is ready get him up here. Otherwise, getting JBJ up here is the right move in my opinion (can also take a shot on Brentz). Napoli has been bad but too early to panic on him in my opinion.
The most likely scenario though is that this season was over as soon as we lost Vasquez & Hanigan through little fault of Ben's. I'm already chalking this up to a lost season and am OK to turning into sellers again at the trade deadline..
Rasputin said:
If we jettison Ross, we have just one lefty in the pen anyway. Breslow is not a lefty, except in a purely technical sense. He is not tougher on LHH than RHH, either over his career as a whole or right now.
It's funny how people keep advocating to bring the kids up but when they don't have immediate success, the kids arē busts.
From what I understand, ERod's fastball command is still spotty and he's basically a two-pitch pitcher. That might be good enough for AAA but is it really food enough to get through a ML lineup two or three times?
Wright should be put in the rotation and I think it would be great to line him up before Kelly. Masterson to the bullpen and at some point later in the season, since ERod is probably going to run up against an innngslimit (he only pitched 120 innings last year after pitching 160 the year before), I'd bring him up and let him be the swing man in the bullpen.
I am very glad Crais is going to the minors.
And maybe get Naps to pull a feẃ allnighters - maybe he's getting too much sleep? But seriously, I think he underestimated how much a major surgery can take out of someone. He had surgery in the first week of November and hen was on an all-liquid diet for 6 weeks. Takes a while to recover fully from something like that.
From what I understand, ERod's fastball command is still spotty and he's basically a two-pitch pitcher. That might be good enough for AAA but is it really food enough to get through a ML lineup two or three times?
Wright should be put in the rotation and I think it would be great to line him up before Kelly. Masterson to the bullpen and at some point later in the season, since ERod is probably going to run up against an innngslimit (he only pitched 120 innings last year after pitching 160 the year before), I'd bring him up and let him be the swing man in the bullpen.
I am very glad Crais is going to the minors.
And maybe get Naps to pull a feẃ allnighters - maybe he's getting too much sleep? But seriously, I think he underestimated how much a major surgery can take out of someone. He had surgery in the first week of November and hen was on an all-liquid diet for 6 weeks. Takes a while to recover fully from something like that.
How much does the entire equation change when the starters give you consistently good innings (and lots of them)? I think it has to have a snowball effect. The bullpen pitches fewer innings, so it's less wear and tear, and you can manage by matchups instead of needing guys to go longer just to fill in the innings. That makes them more effective.
And the lineup isn't always in a hole, and when they rally for 2-3 runs late that can actually win a game 4-3 instead of just drawing you to within 5. Less pressure = more relaxed hitters = better results.
Long story short, there's a ton wrong with the team right now but solving the starting pitching is the biggest key of all, and it impacts everything else.
And the lineup isn't always in a hole, and when they rally for 2-3 runs late that can actually win a game 4-3 instead of just drawing you to within 5. Less pressure = more relaxed hitters = better results.
Long story short, there's a ton wrong with the team right now but solving the starting pitching is the biggest key of all, and it impacts everything else.
Via Rob Bradford
"Steven Wright is also here in Toronto with Red Sox. Robbie Ross and Allen Craig sent down"
"Steven Wright is also here in Toronto with Red Sox. Robbie Ross and Allen Craig sent down"
If that's it, that isn't much of a "shakeup," especially if Bradley really is going to sit in favor of Vic.
With Napoli and Vic in particular, we're paying the piper for the midmarket FA approach from 2013.
nvalvo said:
They're both gone after this season, if not before. I'll pay that price every year of the century, and twice during leap year.
It wasn't a criticism, just an observation.P'tucket said:
They're both gone after this season, if not before. I'll pay that price every year of the century, and twice during leap year.
In hindsight, there's not really much else that Ben/Farrell could have done. Where else were they going to "shake up" the roster? I suppose they could have traded for a catcher, but as with any early season trades, you're going to be overpaying and there's no promise of it working out.
I have brought this idea up before and have been dismissed as a delusional old fuck. Is it time for a radical approach to maximize the chance of getting some early leads. Namely this http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2013/11/26/5144934/openers-bullpen-usage-closers-setup-men-weird-baseball-all-the-luke-hochevar. if you are contemplating moving Kelly and Masterson to the bullpen and you are struggling to develop young pitchers who face innings limitations. Why not try something radically different?
I apologize if this is too off topic but these guys certainly are not flourishing in their current roles, plus we have two young lefthanders in Pawtucket who might be ready to at least take advantage of unfamiliarity a few times throgh the rotation.
I apologize if this is too off topic but these guys certainly are not flourishing in their current roles, plus we have two young lefthanders in Pawtucket who might be ready to at least take advantage of unfamiliarity a few times throgh the rotation.
Agreed. I've always wondered how much monetary value the front office places on winning a WS. I'm sure Vic and Napoli were easily worth it. And they both won critical ALCS games with dingers.P'tucket said:
They're both gone after this season, if not before. I'll pay that price every year of the century, and twice during leap year.
He was up when Varvaro was DFA'ed right? Makes that move even more perplexing.Savin Hillbilly said:
theapportioner said:
Varvaro was DFA to make room on the 40-man for Hinojosa...simply optioning Ross doesn't accomplish that.