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Do the Celtics have any players who are very good?

Discussion in 'Mark Blount's Port Cellar: Celtics Forum' started by Koufax, Dec 4, 2014.

  1. southshoresoxfan

    southshoresoxfan Member SoSH Member

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    Were still wasting our breath on if IT is a very good NBA player? Jesus.
     
  2. sox311

    sox311 Member SoSH Member

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    Isaiah got another tech tonight. He is close to being suspended a game. Does that carry over into the playoffs?

    Another point about good Celtic players on this team; Smart has become a fantastic rebounder. He is second amongst guards in offensive rebounding only to Russell Westbrook. And in the small sample size Rozier looks far above average at rebounding. Good times and good players on this team.
     
  3. HomeRunBaker

    HomeRunBaker bet squelcher SoSH Member

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    Terry Rozier is quickly earning his way into this thread. He's always had all the physical tools and now that he's getting consistent second unit minutes the game is slowing down for him and he's figuring out how to use his physical gifts to be productive.

    His leap over the past month is making Evan Turner's return even more unlikely than it already was.
     
  4. bowiac

    bowiac I've been living a lie. Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    I was taking issue with the idea that he could lead a team to the finals. I think he's very good, but he's not at that level.
     
  5. Koufax

    Koufax Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    His shooting percentage going into tonight's game was .258. Despite his obvious talents he has to do better than that.
     
  6. luckiestman

    luckiestman Son of the Harpy SoSH Member

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    He hasn't even taken 100 shots. That's like 3 games for James Harden.
     
  7. Van Everyman

    Van Everyman Member SoSH Member

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    Or five quarters for Kobe.
     
  8. HomeRunBaker

    HomeRunBaker bet squelcher SoSH Member

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    I think he'll be fine as he has a nice stroke, soft touch and good mechanics. He reminds me a lot of Chauncey Billups when he came out of Colorado in everything he does......and it took Billups 4 years for the game to slow down enough to get his FG% out of the 30's. I'd say Rozier is the more explosive athlete and Billups the more fluid offensively but they have a lot of similarities in being scoring 1's who can also play off the ball.
     
  9. Eddie Jurak

    Eddie Jurak Go Leafs Go Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Rozier's emergence puts the C's in the position of having 4 guards who demand minutes. I suppose in the short term they can go with some small lineups, Smart taking Turner's minutes at the 3 if (more like when) Evan moves on, but I wonder if someone gets dealt. (I'd think that Bradley would have significant value to certain teams).
     
  10. Koufax

    Koufax Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    It seems that there is a consensus that IT is very good. Does anyone else on the Celtics deserve that rating? Jae Crowder? Avery Bradley?

    While that term is necessarily vague, let me try to define is as someone who would be either a starter or a sixth man on a championship team and a serious contributor to its success. Thoughts?
     
  11. Eddie Jurak

    Eddie Jurak Go Leafs Go Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Crowder strikes me as a guy who could be the 4th/5th/6th man on a lot of championship teams. (For perspective, the 4-5-6 on the 2008 Celtics were Rondo, Perk, and Posey).

    Bradley, too, on some teams. That Bradley has PG size but not PG vision and ball handling limits him, but he'd still fit well on a team that could handle those issues. (I think he'd be great on, say, a Houston type team with a 2 guard who runs the offense).
     
  12. Grin&MartyBarret

    Grin&MartyBarret Member SoSH Member

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    I think IT is a really solid player, being used correctly, on a great contract. I'm not sure I'd say he's "very good"--but I am, admittedly, sort of splitting hairs. He's a huge bargain, and a really, really good offensive player.

    That said, Jae Crowder is the Celtics best player and I'm not sure it's even particularly close. He doesn't really have any weaknesses in his game, is a solid offensive player, great defensive player, and at 25 should just be entering his prime playing (primarily) a position that's very shallow across the league.
     
  13. smastroyin

    smastroyin simpering whimperer Dope SoSH Member

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    I think the definition of very good is far too vague. How many very good players do you think are in the league? Is it an average of one per team, with many teams having none?

    There are 180 starters+sixth men. Let's say that anyone who isn't top 6 in the rotation isn't "very good" yet. Is the median guy in the league 180? So "average" might be 150-210, "good" might be 50-150, "very good" 50 and above? I realize there isn't actually a bell curve of talent in the league, just making the point.

    As for the Celtics, they will win between 47 and 49 games this year. They have a few too many bad losses (especially that stupid Lakers game, and losing 2 to BKN (I understand HRB's matchup argument)) but have also been competitive against the top teams in the league. So, it's kind of hard to take on face value that they have no "very good" players, but again, this gets into definitions.
     
  14. Van Everyman

    Van Everyman Member SoSH Member

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    Understand it isn't apples to apples since they had KG/Pierce/Ray in the 1-2-3 roles and obviously he isn't a center. But it's hard to see how Crowder isn't a better, more complete player than Perk or Posey, who was the definition of a sixth man. The guy would be a third or fourth guy at worst on most championship teams. He's the 2 guy here at worst by virtue of there being less scoring talent.

    But let's not talk about him as some complementary player were he on a better team. Crowder would be every bit as essential on, say, a Popovich coached team.
     
  15. Koufax

    Koufax Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    I'm not an expert in statistics by any means, but note that Basketball Reference ascribes a VORP of 3.1 to IT; 2.8 to Jae Crowder; and 1.3 to Avery Bradley. IT's defense is rated as a significant negative, but his offensive numbers swamp the defense. Measured by BPM, Jae edges out IT 3.1 to 3.0. My eyes tell me that Avery Bradley is closer to those two than he is to, say, Marcus Smart (VORP 1.1).

    PER places IT (21.6) much higher than Jae (16.2) or Avery (13.1), My spidey sense tells me that VORP is measuring these players better than PER.
     
  16. wade boggs chicken dinner

    wade boggs chicken dinner Member SoSH Member

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    On a PF who runs the office, like that mistake by the lake. . . .
     
  17. GreenMonster49

    GreenMonster49 Well-Known Member Silver Supporter SoSH Member

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    The technical foul totals reset at the start of the playoffs:
    https://turnernbahangtime.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/official-nba-rule-book-2015-16.pdf, pages 42-43

     
  18. Fishy1

    Fishy1 Member SoSH Member

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    I know Ainge loves him and that Bradley can be useful, but he lacks the versatility of a really good shooting guard on both ends of the floor. He's hell on point guards when he's engaged, but he has trouble with bigger 2's and can't guard 3's for any sustained portion of time. I've been impressed with the strides he's made offensively -- he has a real crossover now, has shown minor competence in the p&r, and has even managed to finish at the rim occasionally -- but I'm only impressed because he was once so bad. He still does stupid shit and misses easy layups all the time.

    Crowder is the better offensive player and he can guard 1-4, with the caveat the 4's obviously give him trouble w/r/t size. Almost every top team has a player with his defensive capability -- a team like the Clippers would kill to have him over Jeff Green.
     
  19. Koufax

    Koufax Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    I'd go for "Top 50 in the League" as a good line of demarcation for "very good". James Posey and Perk wouldn't qualify; 1986 Bill Walton, a 6th man, would.
     
  20. Koufax

    Koufax Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Using top 50 in the league as a requirement, and looking at VORP, we have IT as #20 in the league, Jae Crowder at #24 and Amir Johnson (!) at #49. Jared Sullinger (85) beats out Avery (95).

    Looking at PER, we have IT (30), Jae (126) and Amir (134).

    Either way, IT is in the top 50. The differences between PER and VORP for Jae and Amir are huge and beyond my comprehension. Personally, I'd say that Jae is on the bubble of very good, and Amir is simply good.
     
  21. Sprowl

    Sprowl Emile de Becque Dope

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    I'd say that Crowder and Bradley are good players, and better on a team built around a trapping defensive scheme where all players need to participate; and they both have great contracts, making them excellent assets. That's very good enough.
     
  22. Dan Murfman

    Dan Murfman Member SoSH Member

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  23. chilidawg

    chilidawg Member SoSH Member

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    VORP is a counting stat, so it's reflective of minutes played, as well as how well you play. PER is a rate stat, and thus independent of minutes, but depends mostly on offensive stats and rebounding.

    RPM would seem to have the best shot at capturing your overall impact on the game, and ranks the Celtics thus:

    Sullinger (21)
    Crowder (23)
    Olynyk (27)
    Johnson (48)
    Thomas (69)
    Smart (102)
    Jerebko (163)
    Bradley (188)
    Turner (299)
    Zeller (361)

    Can't say that list really makes any more sense than any of the others though. To say that Thomas is very good, Crowder on the cusp, and a bunch of other guys are good seems to me to capture it as well as anything.

    If I was going to make up a list it'd look something like:

    Thomas (25)
    Crowder (50)
    Sullinger, Bradley, Johnson (100)
    Olynyk, Smart, Turner (150)
     
  24. Koufax

    Koufax Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    What you need to do now is come up with a proprietary stat that yields that result, which looks about right to me.
     
  25. HomeRunBaker

    HomeRunBaker bet squelcher SoSH Member

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    Keep in mind that PER has a long history of overvaluing backup bigs due to it being a rate stat heavy dependent upon rebounding. For a backup big to be effective in the league they typically provide energy/effort in short minutes that cannot be sustained in longer stints and/or against starting units. Looking at PER to justify Amir being as valuable as Crowder would be that you can justify Enes Kanter being nearly as valuble as Anthony Davis......this is a stat that shows Carl Landry, David Lee, and John Henson all in the leagues Top-10 among PF's.
     
  26. ifmanis5

    ifmanis5 Member SoSH Member

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    Yup. And Marreese Speights rates out as the greatest player ever.
     
  27. Koufax

    Koufax Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Yes, well when you have Coty Clark leading the Celtics with a PER of 24.0 you know you have a problem. Counting stats have the benefit of free-riding on the coach's decision to actually play someone.
     
  28. Erik Hanson's Hook

    Erik Hanson's Hook Member SoSH Member

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    Honest question: why? To my (uninformed) eyes, they play different positions. Turner is 6'7" while Rozier is 6'2", although Rozier has a long wingspan and plus/plus athleticism. But I do have trouble seeing a 6'2" Rozier guarding small forwards at the 3, like Turner can.

    To be clear, I'm a Rozier fan, and not necessarily on board with signing ET to a large contract extension at age 27...but am interested in why ET's production is considered so easily replaced by TR.
     
  29. HomeRunBaker

    HomeRunBaker bet squelcher SoSH Member

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    Rozier's production figures to come in a different way.....a more explosive style both offensively and defensively in transition as well as in pressure/trapping schemes. I wasn't implying that Rozier would step into his exact role just as Turner wouldn't be able to step into another players exact role who has a different skillset. I trust that Brad will utilize Rozier's strengths when he's on the floor.
     
  30. Sprowl

    Sprowl Emile de Becque Dope

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    Rozier is a ballhawk like the young Rondo -- freakish athleticism and high intensity on defense and loose balls. On offense Rozier shows some gifts with ballhandling, and keeps the dribble under control at high speed. It's not the same as playmaking, which requires the vision and passing skills that Rondo always had, Turner shows now, and Rozier may develop. Rozier looks like he'll shoot better than Rondo, which makes a yuge difference.

    Stevens may have to identify some other player to initiate the offense when Thomas is off the floor. Neither Crowder and Bradley can fill that role, but lots of NBA players can, including some in this year's draft.

    I'm still thinking that Turner is worth more to some other team, next year's roster will have a lot of new faces, and next year's offense will show lots of new looks for new skills. Stevens doesn't strike me as a formula coach.
     
  31. Erik Hanson's Hook

    Erik Hanson's Hook Member SoSH Member

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    Agreed on all counts. Rozier's athleticism pops, while I'm not sure that Turner can effectively maintain that sneak-into-the-paint game going into his thirties. But we will need a second ball handler (after IT) after he leaves.

    Tonight should actually be a good test to see how they function without Turner. More minutes for Rozier? More Marcus at SF?
     
  32. Fishy1

    Fishy1 Member SoSH Member

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    I'll add to the chorus that says we should let Turner go, with a sentimental caveat.

    Per vorped, Turner's become much more effective around the basket this season, as opposed to last. 56.5% in the paint, as opposed to 47.2% last year. That's a huge leap, and it passes the eye test: he's just looked much better driving to the basket and at picking his spots -- when to fade away, when to go for the reverse, when to pass (god forbid!). He's managing that not on athleticism or first-step, but on craftiness. He still, on occasion, dribbles a possession into the ground, but it seems to me there's a lot less of that.

    But his problem isn't the paint, it's that he's a horrific 3 point shooter and middling in the mid-range. He's done a much better job of not hogging possessions, but his ineffectiveness from beyond the arc kills spacing.

    But this idea that he's always been bad behind the 3 point line isn't fair, either: he's managed a season at 36% (which is what AB, our "marksman," is putting up) on two attempts a game in Philadelphia, and another at 32% split between Philly and Indiana. If he can go back to shooting like he did in that third season in Philly, it's enough that if he maintains his effectiveness around the basket he can be a good NBA player. Turner isn't dumb: he knows where the NBA is going, and that his future will in part depend on his ability to make 3 pointers at a useful rate. He'll be working on that shot tirelessly this summer. The Celtics could bet that he'll make that effort and turn into a truly reliable leader for the second unit.

    But the Celtics should let someone else make that bet. As has been pointed out countless times, he's going to get paid by someone stupid and desperate this summer. If he can find a 3 point shot, that might actually end up being a worthwhile investment
     
  33. HomeRunBaker

    HomeRunBaker bet squelcher SoSH Member

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    Turner is a career 30.4% shooter beyond the arc with one aberration during his 6-year career. He's had over 350 3-pt attempts since his 3rd season, at 28.3%, while regressing from 32% to 28% to 23% this year. Which do you feel is the better future predictor?
     
  34. Fishy1

    Fishy1 Member SoSH Member

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    Merely suggesting that he only has up to go from here. He's having his best season as an NBA regular without the shooting difficulties.
     
  35. southshoresoxfan

    southshoresoxfan Member SoSH Member

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    Not for nothing he IS shooting 46 percent from 3 since the ASB. I think ET is more likely a 30-32 shooter than a 23-25 from deep.
     
  36. tims4wins

    tims4wins PN23's replacement SoSH Member

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    Celts will wear these during the playoffs. A team that everyone already loves will be loved even more

    [​IMG]
     
  37. Koufax

    Koufax Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Forgive me for resurrecting an ancient thread but I can't resist. When I started it, my whiny premise was that the Celtics had no players who were very good. Now, anticipating the start of the 2018-19 season, it can be said that the entire starting 5 is very good. That is an incredible turnaround and I can't wait for the season to begin.

    Kudos, by the way, to those who suggested that Turner would best be elsewhere and that Terry Rozier had promise.
     
  38. Eddie Jurak

    Eddie Jurak Go Leafs Go Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Since you opted to resurrect the thread...
    Is Marcus Smart the JBJ of basketball players?
     
  39. benhogan

    benhogan Baynes Hogan SoSH Member

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    Great job, thanks. Just read this one page and enjoyed going down memory lane.
     
  40. benhogan

    benhogan Baynes Hogan SoSH Member

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    HRB, good stuff here.

    What are your thoughts on Terry at the moment? I'm not sure we know what Rozier's ceiling is, he has taken major leaps every year (much like Chauncey his first 4 yrs)
     
  41. chilidawg

    chilidawg Member SoSH Member

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    Sully was 21st in the league in RPM just 2 years ago. How quickly we forget.
     
  42. JakeRae

    JakeRae Member SoSH Member

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    No, he wasn't. 2 years ago Sullinger played about 100 minutes for Toronto over the course of the entire season. 3 years ago he was a good player, but ranked 33rd in RPM and 47th in RPMwins.
     
  43. HomeRunBaker

    HomeRunBaker bet squelcher SoSH Member

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    Thanks but where's my Horford credit? J/k

    I'll continue with my Billups comp until something changes. Terry is just 24 and still learning how to make correct shoot/pass decisions so there is plenty more growth there. In addition, the game can still slow down further for him much like it did for Chauncey as he was in his late 20's and into his early 30's. Rozier has the athleticism and explosiveness for his floor game to still grow so much more into.
     
  44. Jimbodandy

    Jimbodandy Member SoSH Member

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    This makes a lot of sense.

    I'm not sure that Terry's BBIQ will reach Chauncey's, but you're right about his decision-making still evolving as we watch. Obviously the shooting has as well.
     
  45. InstaFace

    InstaFace MDLzera

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    I miss Brickowski. A little.
     
  46. Spelunker

    Spelunker Well-Known Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    This thread should be looping on Danny's eventual tombstone laser display.
     
  47. DrewDawg

    DrewDawg Dorito Dink SoSH Member

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    So he's JBJ?



    Oof.

    (Yes, it's totally unfair to quote the OP from a 4 year old thread. It's all in fun.
     
  48. benhogan

    benhogan Baynes Hogan SoSH Member

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    Having a ball reading some of these posts 3yrs ago. Credit to Nick for knowing what needed to happen.

    And all of the bolded pretty much happened.
    1. Tatum/Jaylen - top 3 picks
    2. Brooklyn sucked and handed over the #1 pick
    3. Philly steps in and helps us by throwing us a future high pick and Tatum, for the Nets pick.
    4. Danny signed 2 top 30 talents in FA (Horford/Hayward)
    5. Danny found a star player in Kyrie who forced his way out of Cleveland. Used a Nets pick and spare parts to land him.
     
    #398 benhogan, Jul 28, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2018

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