baruch20 said:Send in the Deflator:
This is more of an inflator than a deflator
baruch20 said:Send in the Deflator:
If you had to guess, what would you say was the probability of BB being suspended for the Super Bowl before Kraft's press conference, versus after? Just a percentage guesstimate of how much he influenced that particular likelihood...?dcmissle said:Wow. You are the expert this evening. But hey, you are in RG's head and the Patriot players' psyches at the same time. So carry on.
I think it moved.soxin6 said:This is more of an inflator than a deflator
NortheasternPJ said:
The NFL doesn't do ring ceremonies at games. He already went to the White House. I'm not sure what this post means. Is he going to be upset he's not at Pats mini-camp when they get their rings?
It's more likely than not that I am generally aware that this possibility exists . . .soxin6 said:
This is more of an inflator than a deflator
PedroKsBambino said:
Historically, the Pats have had celebrations at Kraft's house to present the rings. Did you just start following the team this year?
jsinger121 said:
And its usually during training camp I believe so Revis won't likely be there. They will either give it to him when he returns to New England or FedEx to him at Florham Park.
Don't forget that Revis' uncle was running for NFLPA president and lost. Not surprised Darelle would throw the NFLPA's management under the bus (see his remarks about the CBA and Goodell's ability to hear appeals).pappymojo said:I am surprised by Revis' s statements honestly. I feel like anyone remotely connected to the players union should know this is a farce.
BoneForYourJar said:I'm not a fan of this idea that Kraft should have played it cool and diplomatic before the SB.... Kraft's indignant push-back at that point was entirely appropriate, as well as a powerful statement of support for his coach and QB on the eve of the Big Game.
Don't be so sure. You're ignoring Vincent's statements that this would be resolved in a matter of days. And there were somewhat credible rumors that Goodell wanted to suspend both Brady and Belichick for the Super Bowl.yep said:There is no possible reality where that happens.
Yes, they can. For the simple reason that there was no reason to expect Kraft to have had knowledge of those texts between Rosencrantz and Guildenstern. And he probably had the same opinion of Wells and Paul Weiss that the SoSH lawyers had. It was an opinion that turned out to be wildly incorrect, but I'm not sure that's Kraft's fault (given that PW and Wells still seem to have defenders on this board).Because they can't both be right, on this issue.
I can tell you only that the League appeared to be on a runaway train. It's an historical fact that Troy Vincent said the matter would be wrapped up "in a few days." BB then went on a science tirade during his press conference, his second public statement on the matter within a few days, much more expansive than the first. Shortly thereafter the hiring of Ted Wells was announced, and the Report did not issue for more than 3 months. "A few days " > 3 months. Something must have given them pause unless one assumes that Vincent was being deliberately inaccurate.yep said:If you had to guess, what would you say was the probability of BB being suspended for the Super Bowl before Kraft's press conference, versus after? Just a percentage guesstimate of how much he influenced that particular likelihood...?
"While I respect the independent process of the investigation, the time, effort and resources expended to reach this conclusion are incomprehensible to me. Knowing that there is no real recourse available, fighting the league and extending this debate would prove to be futile. We understand and greatly respect the responsibility of being one of 32 in this league and, on that basis, we will accept the findings of the report and take the appropriate actions based on those findings as well as any discipline levied by the league."
"Despite our conviction that there was no tampering with footballs, it was our intention to accept any discipline levied by the league. Today's punishment, however, far exceeded any reasonable expectation. It was based completely on circumstantial rather than hard or conclusive evidence.
"We are humbled by the support the New England Patriots have received from our fans throughout the world. We recognize our fans' concerns regarding the NFL's penalties and share in their disappointment in how this one-sided investigation was handled, as well as the dismissal of the scientific evidence supported by the Ideal Gas Law in the final report.
"Tom Brady has our unconditional support. Our belief in him has not wavered.
The interesting thing about Rodgers' comments is that it portrays the pregame ball check as less than rigorous. It suggests that either the refs don't check every ball, or they use inaccurate gauges, or both.PC Drunken Friar said:Stop it with this nonsense. The pats have legitimate gripes, this is not one of them.
I think that if the Patriots had factually proven their innocence, they wouldn't have been punished. Failing that, I think Goodell has show that he's not at all arbitrary in how he punishes things: he generally punishes them in a pretty close proximity with the public demand for blood.yep said:I used the word "spectrum" because there is a set of facts knowable to Bob Kraft that I don't have. If you want me to craft and defend my own hypothetical press-conference, I'd need to know the starting assumptions, especially regarding factual, knowable, and/or provable guilt or innocence.
I think the evidence shows that it is more probable than not that Roger Goodell is arbitrary and capricious in administering punishment, that he takes public sentiment and criticism personally, and that his decisions regarding league discipline are heavily influenced by media and public perceptions. I think it is more probable than not that the punishment was harsher than it would have been, had the Patriots:
1. Factually proved their innocence with complete and unimpeachable active cooperation, and/or;
2. Maintained a public face of lawyerly circumspection and respect for the process, the league, and the integrity of the game, throughout the process.
I think it more probable than not, that the Patriots' specific cycle of actions caused them to suffer greater punishment for this episode than they would have under a different behavior pattern (regardless of factual guilt or innocence). I also think that the specific cycle of outraged gauntlet-throwing and demands for justice, followed by a proceduralist approach to cooperation with the fact-finding, and finished by a butt-kissing capitulation-without-admission-of-guilt more probably than not will influence and affect the process and outcomes of future NFL disciplinary episodes, to the detriment of the sport, the league, and most especially the New England Patriots.
Are you saying that there are not, and never will be any consequences for Kraft's public calling-out of Goodell, and that the punishment would have been exactly the same had Kraft been respectful and deferential from the start?
Give it about 30 seconds.soxin6 said:
This is more of an inflator than a deflator
Ah, and here we have it. Kraft was right to be defiant when he thought his team and staff were innocent, and was right to be contrite when he later found out they might be guilty. Did I get that about right?lexrageorge said:...Yes, they can. For the simple reason that there was no reason to expect Kraft to have had knowledge of those texts between Rosencrantz and Guildenstern. And he probably had the same opinion of Wells and Paul Weiss that the SoSH lawyers had. It was an opinion that turned out to be wildly incorrect, but I'm not sure that's Kraft's fault (given that PW and Wells still seem to have defenders on this board).
You kinda suck at facts on this issue.yep said:Ah, and here we have it. Kraft was right to be defiant when he thought his team and staff were innocent, and was right to be contrite when he later found out they might be guilty. Did I get that about right?
The problem is, the first Kraft, the one who went scorched-earth with declarations of innocence and demands for apology--that Kraft wasn't right, he was wrong, if there was actual guilt. If you're going to play the outraged victim of an unjust bag-job, you need to make sure that you are actually factually innocent first (or at least that nobody can prove guilt). Otherwise, you're not only guilty, but you're also stupid, plus you just insulted the people whose job it is to decide this stuff.
My problem with Kraft (contrary to popular belief) is not that he was defiant and throwing a fuck-you attitude (I loved every minute of that). It's also not that he was contrite and diplomatic and butt-licky with Goodell (that was probably the best overall use of resources for a mortal man with finite time in which to live). My problem is that doing both made things worse for the Patriots, the league, and the balance of power in the NFL, now and going forward.
Either one is defensible, one at a time. Both are not collectively defensible, as part of a strategy for overall best outcomes. One of the two was a mistake. I don't know enough of the underlying realities to know which Kraft was right and which was wrong, but one of them made a mistake that made things worse for the team and its future.
I want(ed) very much for innocent/"fuck you" Kraft to be right, and to count his piles of money less than his good name and the integrity of his guys. Sports is entertainment, and it would have been more fun for me to watch the Patriots organization go to war, than to watch this mealy-mouthed billionaire's club play-act an irrelevant process whose ultimate outcome is that they all get to keep getting richer with a minimum of disruption and inconvenience. But Kraft didn't get where is through sentiment nor romanticism, and he apparently either recognized some guilt, and/or decided to roll his eyes and pay an extra million in club dues, since his stadium and TV rights are going to be sold out for the next ten years either way, so who cares?
In any case, I rather suspect that you've hit the nail on the head. For Kraft, whether either decision was right or wrong, smart or stupid, is just not that big a deal. It seemed like a good idea at the time, pay the fine and move on.
Myt1 said:...None of that mattered: public pressure and Goodell looking tough in response did.
troparra said:The refs do not use a highly precise and accurate "master gauge" before games like the one used by Exponent, and there is no evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, to suggest such a process has ever been followed prior to an NFL game.
And what effect do you think that press conference had on the Super Bowl score, if you had to take a guess?Myt1 said:99 and 99. The Patriots are cheaters. Any other league or any other commissioner of this one would have told the Patriots that the issue had been raised and that everyone needed to handle their shit accordingly.
Engineers crack me up. I'll bet, after reviewing the data available, you nearly raised an eyebrow. As has been said once or twice, this was never about facts or truth.troparra said:The interesting thing about Rodgers' comments is that it portrays the pregame ball check as less than rigorous. It suggests that either the refs don't check every ball, or they use inaccurate gauges, or both.
Exponent's experiments on standard deviation of gauges, and therefore the conclusion that the Pats' ball pressure variability is an indicator of guilt, is based on the assumption that the balls were all at the exact same pressure pregame. In their experiments, they used balls inflated to specific psi in order to determine variability.
Rodgers' coments, along with the texts in the Wells report itself, seem to indicate that the balls are not set to some specific pressure before the game. In fact, it suggests that balls are set not only to a pressure anywhere between 12.5 and 13.5, but also sometimes outside that range. Further, the rulebook doesn't state that all balls have to be at the exact same pressure. The refs do not use a highly precise and accurate "master gauge" before games like the one used by Exponent, and there is no evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, to suggest such a process has ever been followed prior to an NFL game.
Take the Pats' 13.65 ball. Given that the ideal gas law STILL, you know, actually works in the second half of football games just like it does in the first half, if that 13.65 number is right, that means it must have been pumped up at least a half pound or more above that.garzooma said:
Speaking of inaccuracies in the measurement process, has there been any analysis of the AFCCG postgame measurements? I was just checking the Wells report:
The post-game measurements were recorded as follows:
So according to Gauge 1, at least one of the Patriots balls was overinflated beyond the 13.5 maximum to 13.65 (maybe McNally sneakily inflated it). Or according to Gauge 2, the Colts balls all lost at least .5 PSI from the 13.0 they were originally set at.Code:The post-game measurements were recorded as follows: Patriots balls Gauge 1 Gauge 2 1 13.50 13.15 2 13.35 12.95 3 13.35 12.95 4 13.65 13.25 Colts Ball Gauge 1 Gauge 2 1 12.90 12.50 2 12.45 12.10 3 12.80 12.45 4 12.70 12.35
Science can be critically appraised. It doesn't matter what team a person follows when pointing out egregious errors. Despite what you say, this is still about facts in the long run.ipol said:Engineers crack me up. I'll bet, after reviewing the data available, you nearly raised an eyebrow. As has been said once or twice, this was never about facts or truth.
To emphasize a point I brought up tens of pages ago, I would really like to see the same level of concern as has been shown on these boards the next time the asshole Goodell railroads a team as fully as he railroaded the Patriots. Well, unless it's the Colts. Fuck the Colts.
I fully admit to enjoying the smack down the saints got and the wringer the Dolphins were put through. But going forward I will absolutely look at any future discipline of any team (besides the colts and jets of course) through railroaded colored glasses. Fool me once, shame on...shame on you. Fool me....you can't get fooled again.ipol said:
To emphasize a point I brought up tens of pages ago, I would really like to see the same level of concern as has been shown on these boards the next time the asshole Goodell railroads a team as fully as he railroaded the Patriots. Well, unless it's the Colts. Fuck the Colts.
Not quite a historical fact. The league announced Wells had been retained to investigate the day before the Mona Lisa Vito press conference.dcmissle said:I can tell you only that the League appeared to be on a runaway train. It's an historical fact that Troy Vincent said the matter would be wrapped up "in a few days." BB then went on a science tirade during his press conference, his second public statement on the matter within a few days, much more expansive than the first. Shortly thereafter the hiring of Ted Wells was announced...
Both Kraft's can be right, and they were. The circumstances the weekend before the Super Bowl, and the circumstances this week, were completely different.yep said:Ah, and here we have it. Kraft was right to be defiant when he thought his team and staff were innocent, and was right to be contrite when he later found out they might be guilty. Did I get that about right?
The problem is, the first Kraft, the one who went scorched-earth with declarations of innocence and demands for apology--that Kraft wasn't right, he was wrong, if there was actual guilt. If you're going to play the outraged victim of an unjust bag-job, you need to make sure that you are actually factually innocent first (or at least that nobody can prove guilt). Otherwise, you're not only guilty, but you're also stupid, plus you just insulted the people whose job it is to decide this stuff.
My problem with Kraft (contrary to popular belief) is not that he was defiant and throwing a fuck-you attitude (I loved every minute of that). It's also not that he was contrite and diplomatic and butt-licky with Goodell (that was probably the best overall use of resources for a mortal man with finite time in which to live). My problem is that doing both made things worse for the Patriots, the league, and the balance of power in the NFL, now and going forward.
Either one is defensible, one at a time. Both are not collectively defensible, as part of a strategy for overall best outcomes. One of the two was a mistake. I don't know enough of the underlying realities to know which Kraft was right and which was wrong, but one of them made a mistake that made things worse for the team and its future.
I want(ed) very much for innocent/"fuck you" Kraft to be right, and to count his piles of money less than his good name and the integrity of his guys. Sports is entertainment, and it would have been more fun for me to watch the Patriots organization go to war, than to watch this mealy-mouthed billionaire's club play-act an irrelevant process whose ultimate outcome is that they all get to keep getting richer with a minimum of disruption and inconvenience. But Kraft didn't get where is through sentiment nor romanticism, and he apparently either recognized some guilt, and/or decided to roll his eyes and pay an extra million in club dues, since his stadium and TV rights are going to be sold out for the next ten years either way, so who cares?
In any case, I rather suspect that you've hit the nail on the head. For Kraft, whether either decision was right or wrong, smart or stupid, is just not that big a deal. It seemed like a good idea at the time, pay the fine and move on.
pappymojo said:I am surprised by Revis' s statements honestly. I feel like anyone remotely connected to the players union should know this is a farce.
lexrageorge said:Don't forget that Revis' uncle was running for NFLPA president and lost. Not surprised Darelle would throw the NFLPA's management under the bus (see his remarks about the CBA and Goodell's ability to hear appeals).
I think the evidence points away from this but, sincerely, I prefer your line of thinking.troparra said:Science can be critically appraised. It doesn't matter what team a person follows when pointing out egregious errors. Despite what you say, this is still about facts in the long run.
tims4wins said:Forgive me if this has been brought up before, but I can't recall a discussion on this (and please let me know if it has been discussed):
Per the NFL rules, the balls are supposed to be under the supervision of the ref, correct? And per the Wells report and context report, the balls not only went "missing" before the game, but again before the second half, right?
So would that not make Walt Anderson at least somewhat responsible here? If it is his job to supervise the balls, and he fails to do so, he is at fault, to a degree. But obviously no mention of this anywhere.
Just another sub-topic that burns.
Gorton Fisherman said:
I think Kraft blew his only opportunity to make one last, definitive statement of innocence, and one last unequivocal defense of the team's honor for the public record. This is very disappointing from my standpoint.
I was with you until I heard this as an explanation for Kraft backing off --- Consider the source but Ron Borges (who has been more reasonable on this than ever expected and made the point that the report exonerated the team and Belichick then hammered the team w penalties) said on CSN NE last night that people close to Belichick told him that just in the past several days both Belichick and Kraft learned that Brady (implying Brady himself told them) wasn't being totally transparent and that "Belichick never really believed Brady from the get go". It's a sobering revelation if true but might explain (conveniently perhaps) why Kraft backed off, why he never mentioned Brady in his final statements (though there are other plausible explanations) and why the tone was so conciliatory. Also in retrospect looking back at Bill B's tour de force presser with that thought in mind he did go out of his way to say he has nothing to do with the balls and in fact makes them practice with less than ideal balls that are waterlogged or slick etc. I could see a scenario where Belichick indeed did have no clue but at the same time at least part of his annoyance at the time was because he had a least a sneaky suspicion Brady might have done something stupid.Dirty Sanchez Forever said:After a day of reflection, I have more disdain for the doddering old cuckold.
Bear witness to tone deafness and the ability to act with impunity.Ed Hillel said:This is a combination of hilarious and terrifying. The NFL continues to troll the Patriots via official Twitter accounts. Integrity, baby!
https://mobile.twitter.com/nfl/status/601252348812468224
Brady should respond--Ed Hillel said:This is a combination of hilarious and terrifying. The NFL continues to troll the Patriots via official Twitter accounts. Integrity, baby!
https://mobile.twitter.com/nfl/status/601252348812468224
I think the assumption there was below 12.5. Borges is full of shit, as always.tims4wins said:I think we can all agree that Brady has not been 100% transparent on this whole thing. He was asked if he ever said anything to the ball boys that could be construed as him wanting air out of the footballs, and he said no.
Ed Hillel said:I think the assumption there was below 12.5. Borges is full of shit, as always.
joe dokes said:
Because the 17 fans whose tears would have magicallly dried up with "one last definitive statement" would have paled in comparison to what he perceived to be the greater good of THE TEAM and that the %99.99999 percent of Patriot fans who saw (and still see) anything other than Kraft shouting "FUCK YOU ROGER" (including your reasonable, nuanced re-jiggered stattement) into a hot mic as surrender.
This is probably how he saw it:
--He couldn't win against Goodell.
--He couldn't change the feelings of most of Patriot fans with anything other than a scorched earth approach.
--He will never change the minds of non-Patriot fans.
--The media is mostly a lost cause.
The people who post here are probably a bit more sane than the norm. Yet even here, there is a significant number of fans who think that *anything* other suing the league is unconscionable surrender. So with that in mind, Kraft took the *least* aggressive out, since going more aggressive -- but short of scorched earth -- would not, on balance, have helped.