Dave Dombrowski: The Right Man For The Job?

Snodgrass'Muff

oppresses WARmongers
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Mar 11, 2008
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Thanks for the invite. I just wanted to be considerate of others who seemed to say, or perhaps explicitly said, that they did not want me posting here.

I had also intended just to comment on Damien's otherwise excellent article, in the hope that we might find some common ground against a common enemy, the robber baron Henry who sells off the children of the serfs, while creating a myth that as nobility he must do this for the good of all.

Ok, you get the point. They are still going all medieval on our asses.
This is a very silly way to frame the current roster. They have home grown kids starting at LF, CF, RF, SS and C (unless Leon earns the starting spot). They also have a home grown kid in Eduardo in the rotation, if you consider him home grown.

And that's ignoring that they have a home grown vet at 2nd, another in the rotation/pen in Buchholz, several others in the pen and an older home grown kid in the rotation in Wright. In fact, the opening day roster in 2017 will have at least 10 home grown players and one prodigal son in Hanley Ramirez, with a bunch of other home grown depth in the minors for the inevitable shuttle runs.

For an owner that "sells off the children of the serfs" that's a lot of home grown talent. Especially for a big market team. As for the pieces they sold off, only Moncada was likely to contribute in 2017 and maybe Kopech down the stretch out of the pen. Other than that, it was all prospects really far off or who were never going to have the opportunity to actually produce on the field in Boston to actually end up worth the "hundreds of millions" in value you claim (I disagree with that assessment, but that's another argument).

Go ahead and show me how Margot, Asuaje, Dubon, Light, Aro, Basabe (either), Pennington, Wilkerson, Diaz or Rijo were going to amass enough playing time while the Sox still controlled them to be worth what you are claiming.

Espinoza, Moncada and Kopech were real losses but you have to give up value to get it. And like it or not, the next three seasons are more valuable to the Sox right now than the three that follow them.

As for the rest of your post, yeah, you're probably right that you won't find a receptive audience here for conspiracy theories.

Edit: Way too many words used to respond. Cut it down for efficiency.
 
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joe dokes

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in the hope that we might find some common ground against a common enemy, the robber baron Henry who sells off the children of the serfs, while creating a myth that as nobility he must do this for the good of all.

Ok, you get the point. They are still going all medieval on our asses.
I disagree with the premise, so
I'm guessing I still have most of you (or at least some of you?) on board.
No you dont.

after a season in which he had a declining K rate, a trend of dropping velocity, a number of missed starts for elbow soreness, and was hit hard, with his worst xFIP of his career.
As far as I can tell, he didn't miss any starts in 2016. Every start was on 4 or 5 days rest. He had extra rest after starting the all star game, and missed a start when he was suspended. Show me where I'm wrong.
 

O Captain! My Captain!

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As far as I can tell, he didn't miss any starts in 2016. Every start was on 4 or 5 days rest. He had extra rest after starting the all star game, and missed a start when he was suspended. Show me where I'm wrong.
For what it's worth, Sale's K rate was right around his career averages, as was his velocity. It's really a peak year in 2015 that makes his 2016 look like a decline. He also pitched his career high in innings in 2016.
 
Jun 24, 2016
35
I'm using a backwards diagnosis since teams don't need to enter untreated or asymptomatic injuries into their injury database.

After that 20 days of rest (really two spans of 10 days each), he had a series of games that were, or were among his best last year. That could be typical of resting a dead arm or sore elbow and then getting better. Until the performance declines again toward the end of the season.

Dead arm is a typically undiagnosed, but real pathology of swelling in the joint that disturbs the pitcher's mechanics.

ADD: to snod's point, below, (and joe's, below that) this bad/rest/good/bad trend is a red flag that one ignores at one's own peril, when trading.
 
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Snodgrass'Muff

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Mar 11, 2008
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I'm using a backwards diagnosis since teams don't need to enter untreated or asymptomatic injuries into their injury database.

After that 20 days of rest (really two spans of 10 days each), he had a series of games that were, or were among his best last year. That could be typical of resting a dead arm or sore elbow and then getting better. Until the performance declines again toward the end of the season.

Dead arm is a typically undiagnosed, but real pathology of swelling in the joint that disturbs the pitcher's mechanics.
This is also called post hoc rationalization.
 
Jun 24, 2016
35
Go ahead and show me how Margot, Asuaje, Dubon, Light, Aro, Basabe (either), Pennington, Wilkerson, Diaz or Rijo were going to amass enough playing time while the Sox still controlled them to be worth what you are claiming.

Edit: Way too many words used to respond. Cut it down for efficiency.
I'm just citing the law of random numbers. When you give up enough prospects, the chances improve that some of them would have contributed.

The theory of blocking is itself controversial. Up-the-middle defenders and power arms typically have the ability to be flexible. The trend is to convert these athletic, multi-tool players to super-utility roles.

Margot was at the time a top 25 prospect, and still looked like he could be valuable at the end of last year as the late innings defensive specialist/pinch runner the Red Sox lacked. He alone only needs to give them 1 WAR over 200 TBF in each of five or six years to be worth about $50-60 million in excess value, and so far, Kimbrel's excess value (measured in regular season WAR) was approximately zero in 2016.
 

Snodgrass'Muff

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I guess I shouldn't be surprised that you seem to think WAR is a good way to measure reliever value when comparing them to positional players.
 

joe dokes

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I'm using a backwards diagnosis since teams don't need to enter untreated or asymptomatic injuries into their injury database.

After that 20 days of rest (really two spans of 10 days each), he had a series of games that were, or were among his best last year. That could be typical of resting a dead arm or sore elbow and then getting better. Until the performance declines again toward the end of the season.

Dead arm is a typically undiagnosed, but real pathology of swelling in the joint that disturbs the pitcher's mechanics.
Stop. You aren't using a "backwards diagnosis." You are "making stuff up" to support some sort of point.
You said he missed "a number of starts with a bad elbow." There isn't a shred of evidence for that.
 

Stitch01

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Jul 15, 2005
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I think you have a very flawed way of looking at major league roster construction and talent evaluation. Maximizing excess value isnt a the goal of constructing a major league roster. That mistake part of the larger problem with your approach. You are completely ignoring the constraints of having limited amounts of roster spots and playing time. Drastically oversimplifying and stretching the use of WAR, paying 11 WAR worth of salary for 8 WAR worth of player can be a better decision than paying 1 WAR worth of salary for a 3 WAR player.

Arguing Chris Sale isnt an upgrade over Steven Wright also shows a flawed approach to evaluating the worth of players/talent/roster construction.

So I think the basics need a bit of work before we get into unraveling the grand conspiracy that explains everything baseball.
 

Plympton91

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Oct 19, 2008
12,408
Thank you for the contrary assessment "So Good ..." I think there is a strong case to be made that the Red Sox gave up surplus value in the Kimbrel, Thornberg, and Sale deals, not so much in the Pomeranz deal. There's no need to resort to conspiracy theories to explain the coverage of those deals however, as it is as simple as the media and the majority of the fan base have large discount rates on future production vs. present.

I also used to become overly attached to prospects, having been scarred at an impressionable age by the Bagwell and Schilling trades by a front office that was locked in the 1950s even by 1980s standards. In addition to age overcoming that low discount rate, I found the book "Superforecasting: The Art and Science of Prediction" to be extremely helpful in stemming my propensity to overvalue prospects. It teaches you to consider not just your preferred narrative or a small set of narratives around it that you might have in mind, but to really expand your consideration of the whole range of outcomes. And then it teaches you to place a lot more weight on "baseline probabilities" -- like "What is the fraction of pitchers rated in BA's top 10 who go on to have a career of ____" rather than convincing yourself, at risk of mixing book titles, "This guy is different!"

As you no doubt know, each prospect can project to a range of potential outcomes, right? And, each of those potential outcomes can be assigned a probability, right? And, the sum of the probabilities spanning the range of potential outcomes must be equal to 100 percent, right? So fill in these probabilities for Anderson Espinosa (and Michael Kopech), and remember, there are well established baseline probabilities for these outcomes, all of which greatly exceed 1%, even for the best prospects:

1. He never gets out of high-A ball
2. He never gets out of AA
3. He never really breaks out of AAAA status, like Todd Van Poppel, Frankie Rodriguez, Matt White, Jesse Foppert
4. He gets hurt while basically still in the minors and his arrival in the majors is delayed by up to 2 years, like Brandon Workman just had happen
5. He suffers a career ending injury while basically still in the minors or early in his career, like scores of other pitchers, including Juan Pena or Brien Taylor or Ryan Anderson
6. He never becomes more than a middle reliever because he can't maintain his velocity to late innings or never improves his command, like Guillermo Mota or Jose Mesa
7. He never becomes more than a back-of-the rotation starter during his cost controlled years, like Jaret Wright, Darren Dreifort, or Nathan Eovaldi
8. He doesn't get hurt, but loses the ability to throw strikes, like Rick Ankiel or Daniel Bard
9. He doesn't get hurt, but as his body fills out, his arm loses some of its whip, and his velocity drops rather than increases, lowering his ceiling and slowing his path to the majors (Hello, Matt Harrington)
10. He max's out as a good mid-rotation starter, like Dustin Hermanson, Chad Billingsley, or what Drew Pomeranz already is
11. He's good, but up to 2 of his major league cost controlled seasons are lost to injury, and he's doesn't come all the way back, just a mid-rotation starter like Aaron Sele or Edinson Volquez
12. He suffers an injury or string of injuries during his cost controlled seasons that consistently rob his overall output and ultimate effectiveness, like Paul Wilson, Steve Karsay, Carl Pavano, Chris Medlen or Daniel Hudson
13. He struggles as a starter but then becomes a relief ace, like Andrew Miller or Wade Davis
14. He becomes a consistent #2 starter and occasional all star, like John Lester
15. He becomes a consistent #1 starter, like Madison Bumgartner, Pedro Martinez or Chris Sale

Even though I haven't come close to spanning the potential outcomes, you must now recognize that numbers 1 through 9, all need to have positive numbers for Anderson Espinoza but are 0 for Drew Pomeranz. For each potential outcome I've left out of 1-9 that might describe Espinosa's path to the majors, you need at least 1% more deducted from his probability of being "The one who got away." Whatever fraction you put in #10, is a fraction where the outcome is, "No harm done." Of course, Pomeranz is susceptible to #11 and #12 over the next 3 years, but go do some research to determine whether they are more likely, even given his elbow tenderness at the end of last season, than for Espinosa at some point in the next decade. Bet they're not. Then, by the time you get to #13, #14, and #15, which are the outcomes you're really worried about losing from Espinoza, you have way, way less than your 100 percent probability left to assign to them for Anderson Espinoza, while you also now know that you cannot list any of of those improved outcomes as a 0 percent possibility for Pomeranz, who could be transitioned to the bullpen where he's been a near-ace already once before, or improve on his 2016 season as a starter and become like John Lester, or while much more unlikely, improve even further and approximate MadBum.
 

DeadlySplitter

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Oct 20, 2015
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My solo reaction to this thread now: "Systematically stripping the farm to stay under the tax cap" is the most backwards thing I've read in awhile.
 
Jun 24, 2016
35
Thank you for the contrary assessment "So Good ..." I think there is a strong case to be made that the Red Sox gave up surplus value in the Kimbrel, Thornberg, and Sale deals, not so much in the Pomeranz deal. There's no need to resort to conspiracy theories to explain the coverage of those deals however, as it is as simple as the media and the majority of the fan base have large discount rates on future production vs. present.

I also used to become overly attached to prospects, having been scarred at an impressionable age by the Bagwell and Schilling trades by a front office that was locked in the 1950s even by 1980s standards. In addition to age overcoming that low discount rate, I found the book "Superforecasting: The Art and Science of Prediction" to be extremely helpful in stemming my propensity to overvalue prospects. It teaches you to consider not just your preferred narrative or a small set of narratives around it that you might have in mind, but to really expand your consideration of the whole range of outcomes. And then it teaches you to place a lot more weight on "baseline probabilities" -- like "What is the fraction of pitchers rated in BA's top 10 who go on to have a career of ____" rather than convincing yourself, at risk of mixing book titles, "This guy is different!"

As you no doubt know, each prospect can project to a range of potential outcomes, right? And, each of those potential outcomes can be assigned a probability, right? And, the sum of the probabilities spanning the range of potential outcomes must be equal to 100 percent, right? So fill in these probabilities for Anderson Espinosa (and Michael Kopech), and remember, there are well established baseline probabilities for these outcomes, all of which greatly exceed 1%, even for the best prospects:

1. He never gets out of high-A ball
2. He never gets out of AA
3. He never really breaks out of AAAA status, like Todd Van Poppel, Frankie Rodriguez, Matt White, Jesse Foppert
4. He gets hurt while basically still in the minors and his arrival in the majors is delayed by up to 2 years, like Brandon Workman just had happen
5. He suffers a career ending injury while basically still in the minors or early in his career, like scores of other pitchers, including Juan Pena or Brien Taylor or Ryan Anderson
6. He never becomes more than a middle reliever because he can't maintain his velocity to late innings or never improves his command, like Guillermo Mota or Jose Mesa
7. He never becomes more than a back-of-the rotation starter during his cost controlled years, like Jaret Wright, Darren Dreifort, or Nathan Eovaldi
8. He doesn't get hurt, but loses the ability to throw strikes, like Rick Ankiel or Daniel Bard
9. He doesn't get hurt, but as his body fills out, his arm loses some of its whip, and his velocity drops rather than increases, lowering his ceiling and slowing his path to the majors (Hello, Matt Harrington)
10. He max's out as a good mid-rotation starter, like Dustin Hermanson, Chad Billingsley, or what Drew Pomeranz already is
11. He's good, but up to 2 of his major league cost controlled seasons are lost to injury, and he's doesn't come all the way back, just a mid-rotation starter like Aaron Sele or Edinson Volquez
12. He suffers an injury or string of injuries during his cost controlled seasons that consistently rob his overall output and ultimate effectiveness, like Paul Wilson, Steve Karsay, Carl Pavano, Chris Medlen or Daniel Hudson
13. He struggles as a starter but then becomes a relief ace, like Andrew Miller or Wade Davis
14. He becomes a consistent #2 starter and occasional all star, like John Lester
15. He becomes a consistent #1 starter, like Madison Bumgartner, Pedro Martinez or Chris Sale

Even though I haven't come close to spanning the potential outcomes, you must now recognize that numbers 1 through 9, all need to have positive numbers for Anderson Espinoza but are 0 for Drew Pomeranz. For each potential outcome I've left out of 1-9 that might describe Espinosa's path to the majors, you need at least 1% more deducted from his probability of being "The one who got away." Whatever fraction you put in #10, is a fraction where the outcome is, "No harm done." Of course, Pomeranz is susceptible to #11 and #12 over the next 3 years, but go do some research to determine whether they are more likely, even given his elbow tenderness at the end of last season, than for Espinosa at some point in the next decade. Bet they're not. Then, by the time you get to #13, #14, and #15, which are the outcomes you're really worried about losing from Espinoza, you have way, way less than your 100 percent probability left to assign to them for Anderson Espinoza, while you also now know that you cannot list any of of those improved outcomes as a 0 percent possibility for Pomeranz, who could be transitioned to the bullpen where he's been a near-ace already once before, or improve on his 2016 season as a starter and become like John Lester, or while much more unlikely, improve even further and approximate MadBum.
I do. But trying to keep it really simple, the top 10 prospects almost never bust (pointofpittsburgh link above), especially the pitchers.

Not sure if Espinoza will be top 10 in February, but I suspect Kopech might be.
 
Jun 24, 2016
35
My solo reaction to this thread now: "Systematically stripping the farm to stay under the tax cap" is the most backwards thing I've read in awhile.
I understand your point. Others have said the same.

Quick take: Sale's AAV is $6.5M. I expect they will sell low or dump Buchholz's 13 to pick up $6.5, which they will ultimately need to stay under, when all is said and done.

Same strategy applied to Kimbrel and Carson Smith, who seemed to have a low AAV compared to free agent relievers. Pomeranz as compared to also signing Greinke.

My preferred strategy is, spend the money and blow up the tax cap, because other teams have all picked the other side of that "trade". It's not a "trade" in the conventional sense, but an acquisition of free agents.

But yes, much speculation there, more information needed over the next few months.
 

Mugsy's Jock

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If they want to save Buchholz's 13.5MM, they can accomplish that simply by trading him for a bag of balls. There's no need to send away top prospects to do so. On the other hand, acquiring Chris Sale might, you know, make the team better.

In fact if protecting Scrooge McDuck's moneybags were the only thing that mattered, they wouldn't have invested the $63MM in Moncada in the first place. Sox were willing to light all that bonus money and associated luxury tax money on fire. Because they want to give themselves a better shot of winning the World Series this year.

Criticize the trade from a talent-evaluation or future WAR value perspective if you like, but to say they're pursuing a strategy of cashing in the farm system because they're trying to save money is assbackwards.
 

Snodgrass'Muff

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Not sure if Espinoza will be top 10 in February, but I suspect Kopech might be.
I'll take that bet on Kopech. $20.00 to the charity of the winners choice?

I'll also offer the same bet on Espinoza and the top 20. I'll even give you BA as the list we decide it with where Espinoza was 18th to start the year last spring if you want. You can choose MLB's list or Fangraphs or BP. Or we can average all 4. Whatever. I'm confident in both.
 

PapaSox

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I thought the election was over, that false news and conspiracy theories were done for another cycle. Here I thought the other voices in my head were silent because they had found what they were looking for in Manhattan. Please make the voices stop.
 
Jun 24, 2016
35
I'll take that bet on Kopech. $20.00 to the charity of the winners choice?

I'll also offer the same bet on Espinoza and the top 20. I'll even give you BA as the list we decide it with where Espinoza was 18th to start the year last spring if you want. You can choose MLB's list or Fangraphs or BP. Or we can average all 4. Whatever. I'm confident in both.
Well, I hear you, but wouldn't it be long odds if Kopech does make the top 10 on any list in February? Given that he was rated so low before?

How often does someone jump from 80s to less than 10? (I don't know, which is why I'm asking.)

He's going to be jumping by probably 50-60 as it is. AFAIK, pointofpittsburg hasn't studied large jumps in the rankings, but it may be that prospects that race up the list (like Betts) have an equally low risk of bust.
 
Jun 24, 2016
35
If they want to save Buchholz's 13.5MM, they can accomplish that simply by trading him for a bag of balls. There's no need to send away top prospects to do so. On the other hand, acquiring Chris Sale might, you know, make the team better.

In fact if protecting Scrooge McDuck's moneybags were the only thing that mattered, they wouldn't have invested the $63MM in Moncada in the first place. Sox were willing to light all that bonus money and associated luxury tax money on fire. Because they want to give themselves a better shot of winning the World Series this year.

Criticize the trade from a talent-evaluation or future WAR value perspective if you like, but to say they're pursuing a strategy of cashing in the farm system because they're trying to save money is assbackwards.
Agreed. In the second, more detailed post, I said I would stay away from those arguments. But then it seemed there was a question, so I answered. Sorry if it bothered you.

The robber baron Henry who sells children of the serfs, while creating the myth that he is noble, that was a parable.
 

shaggydog2000

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Apr 5, 2007
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So according to Pointofpittsburgh and the midseason BA rankings, there is a 44% chance Anderson Espinoza is never going to accumulate the WAR total Drew Pomeranz did last season, and a 65% chance that Kopech never reaches 60% of the WAR total Chris Sale put up last season. And you think this supports your argument somehow? Now Moncada I get, because hitting prospects are somewhat lower risk. But even he has an average WAR projection of 15, which is about what Sale would be projected for the next 3 seasons. And moving that all from the A) the Future to the present and B) from a 6 year spread to a 3 year spread increases the value to a contending team, correct?
 
Jun 24, 2016
35
True, I am looking forward to the February rankings for Kopech, and for Sale, using the notion of excess value. I am also using the notion of replacement value, when compared to the range of previously expected WAR the team already had.

Nerd alert:
Sale's excess value is $10M x (his 3 year WAR - previously expected 3 year WAR) - $6.5 M AAV x 3 - excess value of prospects traded for him.

Which I think is actually quite a bit negative. As I've said, the worst trade in Red Sox history. Although I may need the benefit of hindsight in a few months to put any teeth to this claim (or to be disproved entirely, for all I know).

For example, trading Buchholz would change the calculation if you consider it related, as I would. Maybe we'll get the equivalent of Moncada and Kopech (less $6.5M) back. In which case, shut my mouth.

Separately, the Red Sox are missing an opportunity to buy their way to a much better team, when other teams are getting worse, if they just blow up the tax cap.
 
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Plympton91

bubble burster
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Oct 19, 2008
12,408
I do. But trying to keep it really simple, the top 10 prospects almost never bust (pointofpittsburgh link above), especially the pitchers.

Not sure if Espinoza will be top 10 in February, but I suspect Kopech might be.
Dude, I listed like 15 of them in that post from the past 20 years. That's about 15 out of 80 total in that period, many of whom had more success than Espinosa or Kopech at similar ages and levels.

And yeah, Espinoza wasn't top 10 last year and won't be this year either. Kopech maybe, but he's still got 135 innings, in part because he punched a teammate and stupidly took a banned supplement. I would gather having a bit of Nuke Laloosh isn't a positive coefficient in a regression of likelihood of major league success.
 

E5 Yaz

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I keep waiting for you to realize that your desire to see them "blow up the tax cap" so they can preserve the farm system would actually work directly against your desire to see them continue building that farm system as it would decimate their draft and international free agent capital. But you just keep repeating these things as though they can exist at the same time.

Of course, you also keep repeating "worst trade in Red Sox history" and citing projected WAR no matter how many times it's been pointed out to you that that's an awful way to evaluate these trades, so I assuming you'll probably just keep shouting at the wall until no one is bothering to respond anymore.

Speaking of which, I'm out!
I'm just stunned people have spent time arguing with someone who got thrown out of soxprospects
 

Devizier

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There's probably an intelligent case for arguing against the risk that the Red Sox are undertaking with their current strategy. I would (honestly) love to hear it. But that was not it.
 

Plympton91

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There's probably an intelligent case for arguing against the risk that the Red Sox are undertaking with their current strategy. I would (honestly) love to hear it. But that was not it.
Think it was in there, it was just buried in all the nonsense.
 

keninten

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Nov 24, 2005
588
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True, I am looking forward to the February rankings for Kopech, and for Sale, using the notion of excess value. I am also using the notion of replacement value, when compared to the range of previously expected WAR the team already had.

Nerd alert:
Sale's excess value is $10M x (his 3 year WAR - previously expected 3 year WAR) - $6.5 M AAV x 3 - excess value of prospects traded for him.

Which I think is actually quite a bit negative. As I've said, the worst trade in Red Sox history. Although I may need the benefit of hindsight in a few months to put any teeth to this claim (or to be disproved entirely, for all I know).

For example, trading Buchholz would change the calculation if you consider it related, as I would. Maybe we'll get the equivalent of Moncada and Kopech (less $6.5M) back. In which case, shut my mouth.

Separately, the Red Sox are missing an opportunity to buy their way to a much better team, when other teams are getting worse, if they just blow up the tax cap.
I can agree with the bolded.
 

Tyrone Biggums

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I'll take that bet on Kopech. $20.00 to the charity of the winners choice?

I'll also offer the same bet on Espinoza and the top 20. I'll even give you BA as the list we decide it with where Espinoza was 18th to start the year last spring if you want. You can choose MLB's list or Fangraphs or BP. Or we can average all 4. Whatever. I'm confident in both.
What about a bet about Kopech being an elite Chi Sox closer next season? I might be interested in playing...haha
 

Tyrone Biggums

nfl meets tri-annually at a secret country mansion
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Aug 15, 2006
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True, I am looking forward to the February rankings for Kopech, and for Sale, using the notion of excess value. I am also using the notion of replacement value, when compared to the range of previously expected WAR the team already had.

Nerd alert:
Sale's excess value is $10M x (his 3 year WAR - previously expected 3 year WAR) - $6.5 M AAV x 3 - excess value of prospects traded for him.

Which I think is actually quite a bit negative. As I've said, the worst trade in Red Sox history. Although I may need the benefit of hindsight in a few months to put any teeth to this claim (or to be disproved entirely, for all I know).

For example, trading Buchholz would change the calculation if you consider it related, as I would. Maybe we'll get the equivalent of Moncada and Kopech (less $6.5M) back. In which case, shut my mouth.

Separately, the Red Sox are missing an opportunity to buy their way to a much better team, when other teams are getting worse, if they just blow up the tax cap.
So for an organization that traded Bagwell for Anderson and sold Ruth...this deal is worse???

Where the hell is that Ari Gold gif when you need it?

Ah here it is

 
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JimD

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I'm guessing that there are six or maybe eight MLB fanbases who wouldn't wish to trade places with Red Sox fans right now for the opportunity to have Dave Dombrowski 'ruin' their team the way he has here.

Never mind the '13 championship - if someone would have showed me five years ago this month how the upcoming rebuild would fare, I would have signed up for it 100 times out of 100. Rebuild are supposed to end with a stacked ML roster of young talent plus excess pieces to trade for what you need, but many such overhauls fall far short of the mark.
 

BJBossman

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Dec 6, 2016
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I'm guessing that there are six or maybe eight MLB fanbases who wouldn't wish to trade places with Red Sox fans right now for the opportunity to have Dave Dombrowski 'ruin' their team the way he has here.

Never mind the '13 championship - if someone would have showed me five years ago this month how the upcoming rebuild would fare, I would have signed up for it 100 times out of 100. Rebuild are supposed to end with a stacked ML roster of young talent plus excess pieces to trade for what you need, but many such overhauls fall far short of the mark.
I would've signed up for it, minus Panda.

I never got the desire to sign both him and Hanley. Made zero sense. All the other moves at least had some semblance of logic to them, even if they didn't work out.
 

nvalvo

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I would've signed up for it, minus Panda.

I never got the desire to sign both him and Hanley. Made zero sense. All the other moves at least had some semblance of logic to them, even if they didn't work out.
I don't think this is quite right. It was unfortunate, but if any thing, it was too logical.

Cherington was responding to the new low strike and to the apparent disappearance of power from the game. The new low strike made Sandoval's skill as a bad-ball hitter look valuable, and he was stockpiling power bats in response to what looked like it might be a new reality. ISO for all of MLB, 2007-2016: .155, .152, .155, .145, .144, .151, .143, .135, .150, .162. The bolded season is 2014, right before the signings.

I don't think it's crazy to suggest that looked like something a GM should respond to, but the game zagged in the other direction, quite possibly because the league juiced the ball. Hanley couldn't play LF and hurt himself; Sandoval was bad on both sides of the ball, likely because of injury and/or weight. It sucked.

For me, the lesson is that stockpiling what you think are going to be undervalued assets in your organization is one thing, but it's not clear you can actually build your 25 man roster that way. At the margin, you can use those sorts of theories to guide your preferences for one player over another, but the roster constrains roles and imposes opportunity costs that you can't just ignore.

Back on topic: Maybe I'm feeling right now that Dombrowski has left us dangerously thin beyond the 25 man roster, but with the possible exception of our "extra" seventh SP, the 25 man roster is admirably young and balanced: Hanley, Pedroia, and Chris Young, at 33, are now the senior players on the roster. Buchholz and Wright are 32, Price is 31, and Panda is 30. The remaining 18 players on the roster are in their 20s: from Benintendi at 22 to Kimbrel, Kelly, and Holt at 29. Dombrowski clearly believes in opportunity costs, i.e. in players being "blocked," and is aggressive about cashing such players in, from Margot to Moncada, to improve the 25 man. This means, for example, that he seems much more firmly committed to Sandoval than I think a lot of people here would like. Moncada was more than our hedge against Sandoval, we were — I was — actively expecting Moncada to displace Sandoval mid-season. But that's not how Dombrowski does business.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Mar 26, 2005
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There's probably an intelligent case for arguing against the risk that the Red Sox are undertaking with their current strategy. I would (honestly) love to hear it. But that was not it.
Go to the Sox prospects thread I posted before. Another former SOSHer (not sgsgsg) is making that case.

The basic argument is that since starting pitching was a already a position of strength, the upgrade from Buchholz/Wright/ERod to Sale pales in comparison to future value of Moncada/Kopech.

Whlie there is certainly some merit to that argument, particularly straight from WAR-in and WAR-our perspective, I wonder if what happened is that DD decided that the team as constructed wasn't really a World Series contender because our rotation likely would not stack up against the rotation of the SFG, CLE, or CHI (at least). I mean it's a least arguable that one real problem that DD was facing is that the team as constructed would get in the playoffs but not get over the hump and then by the time Moncada/Kopech were ready, we would be losing Price or Porcello or some of the other foundation players and then the RS would be stuck in a cycle of being good but not good enough.
 

4 6 3 DP

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Oct 24, 2001
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The only issue with Dombrowski is very similar to that of Belichick in the draft - he wants Tavon Wilson, he blows a second rounder on the player because, well, he's BB and it doesn't matter that Wilson was a 6th rounder at best to everyone else.

Anderson Espinoza's market value should have been worth more than Pomeranz - but because DD "gets his man", it's almost like price be damned. You make the Sale deal 10 times out of 10 - he's an elite performer. But I don't think a guy who deals a top prospect for a mediocre lefty off a good half season represents anything positive.