The backup may get a total of 30-40 games. I don`t see much sense in trading or spending on anyone when we have a Butler in AAA that could be a viable backup. It would also show some faith in a guy that has worked his way through the minors. It`s the one position that would have the least playing time unless an injury happens. We`d have the money or trade assets still in house in case of injury for a trade. The options would be fewer in season. Of course Swihart could also be pushing for a promotion after the All-Star break.
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Qualify ""defense."Plympton91 said:
The Red Sox brass have at different times stated that Lavarnway has struggled with the game calling plans that the Red Sox have indicated they value greatly, and also that they have methods of assessing/teaching pitch framing which they believe has value. As such, traditional defense is a smaller piece of the catcher position's value for the Red Sox than is generally considered in traditional player assessment.
Grandal only has so many PAs because he played 1st on top of catching. That's part of the reason I like him, he's another option to keep Napoli fresh as well as Vaz.
EDIT:279 PAs as a catcher. More than the average back up but that might not be a bad thing as a safety net for Vaz's first full season.
EDIT:279 PAs as a catcher. More than the average back up but that might not be a bad thing as a safety net for Vaz's first full season.
I agree they seem ahead of the curve on valuing pitch calling and framing, and that's a good thing. I'm just saying Lavarnway must be really, really bad at those things for them to be looking at signing one of the absolute offensive black holes in that list rather than give him a shot. I could see him being bad at framing, because, let's face it, he's a bit of a klutz. I find it hard to believe that he's bad at pitch calling, unless he just won't work at it -- or unless Yale's standards for baseball players are significantly below their average standards.There is no Rev said:
Plympton91 said:
I agree with all of this. Back in 2013, I found an article where Farrell was quoted as saying that Lavarnway was struggling with the pitch calling aspect of the game that they were installing not only compared to Ross, who was basically another coach, but also even compared to Salty. Unfortunately, I simply cannot find the piece. (Is phrenile in the house?
)As per the implications of your last line, I am definitely intrigued by what the hell they are doing that Lavarnway apparently can't work it out.
Am I missing something? Didn't Lavarnway get DFA'd exactly one week ago? Why are we even discussing him?
I would like this guy as the offensive-minded back-up: Rafael Lopez of the Cubs. .378 OBP last year, .412 the year before and .393 the year before that. Left-handed stick. Guy has always put up very good OBP #s.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=lopez-008raf
From Fangraphs: According to McDaniel, his defense is regarded as somewhere in the range of passable to average.
I would like this guy as the offensive-minded back-up: Rafael Lopez of the Cubs. .378 OBP last year, .412 the year before and .393 the year before that. Left-handed stick. Guy has always put up very good OBP #s.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=lopez-008raf
From Fangraphs: According to McDaniel, his defense is regarded as somewhere in the range of passable to average.
Hee Sox Choi said:Am I missing something? Didn't Lavarnway get DFA'd exactly one week ago? Why are we even discussing him?
I would like this guy as the offensive-minded back-up: Rafael Lopez of the Cubs. .378 OBP last year, .412 the year before and .393 the year before that. Left-handed stick. Guy has always put up very good OBP #s.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=lopez-008raf
From Fangraphs: According to McDaniel, his defense is regarded as somewhere in the range of passable to average.
Re: Rafael Lopez, unless I mis-Googled, the Cubbies still owe the Sox a PTBNL for Felix Doubront.
The only catcher on the list of non-tenders is John Baker--who is a LHH but really can't hit anymore even against RHP (he's always been pretty much a total loss vs. LHP). Not a desirable option by any stretch, but perhaps worth a minor league deal and ST invite if nobody bites on a ML deal for him?
“@Ken_Rosenthal: Among the teams pursuing free-agent catcher David Ross, per sources: #Cubs, #RedSox, #Braves, #Padres. Others also involved.”
https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/status/540312639751335937
https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/status/540312639751335937
link to tweet
https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/status/540312639751335937
https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/status/540312639751335937
link to tweet
Red Sox and Cubs may be currying favor w Lester by cozying up to his caddy. Not that he doesn't have value (however minimal) beyond that.
Can I ask an honest question. Could someone please explain to me the difference between one of these marginal veteran defensive catcher options (e.g., Ross, Molina) and Dan Butler? I just don't understand why we assume Ross or Molina will provide $2-3M worth of improvement over Butler? It strikes me as buying for a name brand.
Spending a few million to keep Butler in AAA as depth makes sense, just in case of injury. I don't know the state of MiL catching depth but you don't want bring Swihart mid season to be a back up because of injury.
EDIT:What Pap said is accurate. Molina would be a bad signing.
EDIT:What Pap said is accurate. Molina would be a bad signing.
For christsakes, this place has been torturous in recent weeks with the asinine speculation and cockamamie trade discussion and my use of "we" is subject to your criticism. Rather than succumbing to idioms regarding forests and trees, let's make the assumption that I was loosely using the term "we" in the editorial sense to refer to those in this thread who are advocating bringing in a veteran defense first catcher, such as Ross or Molina.Papelbon's Poutine said:
So my question stands, to those SOSH posters who are advocating the Sox go out and sign a veteran defense first catcher, why do you believe this is superior to having Dan Butler serve as the #2 catcher?
If the Sox think Vazquez will be able to handle (not just physically, but productionally) 110-125 games next year, then my view is that the team should not give up anything at all for the backup in a trade. There's enough out there on the scrap heap. It's one of my heard-headed rules: 1) don't intentionally walk the bases loaded unless there are some extremely compelling circumstances (e.g., Ortiz is coming up with 2nd and 3rd in the bottom of the 9th in a tie game and Pete Gray is on deck and the bench is empty) ; 2) don't trade living humans for a backup catcher that you don't see playing more than 40-50 games.
IANAGM
IANAGM
It's a fair point, and I've moved on from Grandal because I think he's going to cost more than I'd want them to give up. I'm still curious about Jaso because they'll want to move him around to avoid another concussion so he might end up in more than 50 games.
jasail said:
Hunch: it's because veteran, defense-first catchers have experience and understand how to work with MLB pitchers, with a focus on their performance, the other teams' scouting weaknesses, and some ability to get in front of the ball when a 2-2 yakker low/away/in the dirt is called.
AJP does not fit in this category.
Dan Butler may be a great story, but he does not have a lot of experience with any of these facets of catching in the majors. As a back-up to Vazquez, for example, the Red Sox may see value in having an experienced veteran to also mentor Vaz' development in these areas as well.
(Note: I am not advocating one way or the other, merely attempting to address your question)
jasail said:
The biggest difference that I see is that signing Ross may help to sign Lester.. I am not sure how big of a deal it is to him as I can't see the Sox or anyone else signing Ross for more than a 1 year deal (possibly with a team option)
http://nesn.com/2014/11/report-jon-lester-david-ross-could-end-up-signing-as-package-deal/
Dick Pole Upside said:
This is fair; OTOH, if you're not willing to play Butler as a backup, then it's hard to see how he's ever going to develop those qualities he currently lacks. Which may be fine; maybe the point of Butler is simply to be that AAAA fallback option as long as we can hang onto him. But I think it's reasonable to say that it's kind of now or never time for him--if this isn't the right time to use him as the ML backup, maybe there isn't going to be a right time.
I don't think its stunting Butler's development, but since the Sox have a young, inexperienced #1 catcher in Vaz, they sound like they prefer a veteran #2 as a back-up, vs. an inexperienced AAA catcher.
By the end of this year, Vazquez may have advanced enough to accommodate Swihart as a late-season call up and set the Sox up with a young dynamic duo in 2016 and beyond.
By the end of this year, Vazquez may have advanced enough to accommodate Swihart as a late-season call up and set the Sox up with a young dynamic duo in 2016 and beyond.
Back-up idea #79: Hector Sanchez, Giants
Switch-hitter, decent bat. Only 25. Giants have Posey and a very good catcher prospect who is big-league ready - Andrew Susac. Giants want to give Posey more time off behind the plate and have him play 1B more often. Susac has a good eye, high OBP and a good rep behind the plate. Sounds like he's ready to catch 40-50 games for the Giants while Posey gets more rest at 1B. This leaves Sanchez and his 800K salary pretty free to trade.
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=10289&position=C
Decent bat, young, bats both, not expensive and probably wouldn't cost much to acquire. I don't know anything about his D but when I see him bat, he looks decent enough.
And this from MLBT: The Giants have a somewhat crowded situation at catcher with well-regarded rookie Andrew Susac also in the mix for playing time next season. However, as Schulman notes in a second tweet, arb contracts aren’t fully guaranteed, and it’s possible still that Sanchez could be traded or optioned to Triple-A to begin the season.
Switch-hitter, decent bat. Only 25. Giants have Posey and a very good catcher prospect who is big-league ready - Andrew Susac. Giants want to give Posey more time off behind the plate and have him play 1B more often. Susac has a good eye, high OBP and a good rep behind the plate. Sounds like he's ready to catch 40-50 games for the Giants while Posey gets more rest at 1B. This leaves Sanchez and his 800K salary pretty free to trade.
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=10289&position=C
Decent bat, young, bats both, not expensive and probably wouldn't cost much to acquire. I don't know anything about his D but when I see him bat, he looks decent enough.
And this from MLBT: The Giants have a somewhat crowded situation at catcher with well-regarded rookie Andrew Susac also in the mix for playing time next season. However, as Schulman notes in a second tweet, arb contracts aren’t fully guaranteed, and it’s possible still that Sanchez could be traded or optioned to Triple-A to begin the season.
He's Mirabelli with a degenerative arthritic hip condition, so that doesn't really help the Red Sox at Catcher.jacklamabe65 said:
I think I mentioned it earlier in the thread, but I do kinda feel bad for George Kottaras. He's basically an offense-oriented backup who has mostly hit decently and found himself designated from the Cards last year to make room for AJP, of all people. I assume his defense must be godawful to have hit like he has and be bounced around so many teams, but if he's just been in the wrong place at the wrong time and is actually passable defensively, he seems like he'd fit on the Red Sox perfectly. I mean, he strikes out and walks a ton, still has a little pop, probably some contact issues - he's like an extremely poor and sick man's Mike Napoli.
His framing stats are pretty bad. In the negatives every year and in the bottom 25% in years when he played a lot.alwyn96 said:
The other question is, "if Butler isn't a better option for backup catcher than the dregs in the free agent pool, should he really be taking up a 40 man roster spot?"Dick Pole Upside said:
I don't know about "almost certainly" ... the Sox may want to keep Butler for depth. I think it depends on the status of the 40-man if/when another catcher is signed. If the Sox manage to trade fours quarters for a dollar they may not need to make any releases from the current 40 man roster.Rudy Pemberton said:
However, if another catcher is signed and somebody needs to be moved off the 40-man, I agree Butler is the likely candidate.
Edit - typo
Given his (lack of) offense, the fact that Ross apparently has several teams vying for his services is certainly testimony to his defense and leadership. The latter, "intangible" though it may be, does seem to matter for catchers - which makes sense.
I like Ross back in Boston for his coaching/mentoring of both Vazquez and Swihart. Although, the Sox still have Varitek in their employment as a roving catching instructor I think, so he'd also be able to fill that role if needed.
If we bring back Ross, though, I worry that we need to keep Butler. I want no part of rushing Swihart because Ross can't stay on the field.
So the 40-man roster consequences of Ross may make things difficult, even if he's an excellent choice in other respects.
So the 40-man roster consequences of Ross may make things difficult, even if he's an excellent choice in other respects.
I actually like the idea of giving Swihart a taste of the big leagues for a 15-day DL stint as the back-up. No pressure, get to watch and learn. Maybe give him 2 starts during that time. Of course, if Ross gets a concussion, that 15-day stint may turn into 60 days.nvalvo said:
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