Chris Kluwe - "I was fired by 2 cowards and a bigot"
- Thread starter The Napkin
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That's an interesting twist. Kluwe has positioned himself as a crusader for LGBT rights, but makes fun of child rape? That doesn't fit with what we had heard about Kluwe so far.
lostjumper said:
What we heard about Kluwe came from Kluwe. Every person, no matter who they are, can say something that is offensive because people are human and make mistakes, which is why we shouldn't be so quick to judgement when someone says or does something stupid.
Which provides a reasonable explanation for why Kluwe's lawyer wrote to keep the report private, adding that the Vikings had never agreed to make it public.
There are very good reasons why lawyers, when bringing landmark cases, choose their plaintiffs with great care. Recently, that happened in the DOMA case that went to the Supreme Court. It also happened in the CA case on gay marriage ban brought by Olson and Boies.
You don't pick tools, and you don't pick fools. Kluwe with this episode appears to be both.
There are very good reasons why lawyers, when bringing landmark cases, choose their plaintiffs with great care. Recently, that happened in the DOMA case that went to the Supreme Court. It also happened in the CA case on gay marriage ban brought by Olson and Boies.
You don't pick tools, and you don't pick fools. Kluwe with this episode appears to be both.
It's just really disappointing to me. He had portrayed himself as someone who fought for equality in the locker room, and was one of the few to make a public stand about gay rights. Turns out, he was contributing to locker room atmosphere, by mocking the victims of child rape, and joking about little boys being sodomized. He's a hypocrite. Plain and simple. And it seems that when he lost his job he decided to claim he was being persecuted for his beliefs and wants to sue the vikings. Is he going to sue himself since he contributed to the locker room behavior?johnmd20 said:
Great post, lostjumper. You crystallized my thoughts exactly. Kluwe comes off as the worst kind of hypocrite in all this. He is a complete fraud who should slink back to obscurity with his tail between his legs and his mouth firmly shut.
Well, he still exposed some unsavory things that are being addressed. That's good. Just because he is flawed doesn't change that. From everything I've read, he sounds like a total ass. If he is looking to get paid through this lawsuit, I hope he fails.
But none of that changes the wrongdoing on the part of the Vikings. Not all stories need a hero.
But none of that changes the wrongdoing on the part of the Vikings. Not all stories need a hero.
Well said. Few whistleblowers are motivated by altruism; most are driven by petty considerations. Kluwe seemed different to me, but his personal shortcomings don't alter the significance of what he brought to light.EvilEmpire said:
Besides, I think there's a false equivalence being made here between tasteless humor and bigotry in the workplace. The former might be tolerated in an NFL locker room to a far greater extent than it would be in an office setting; the latter must not be.
fwiw, supposedly Kluwe would give lawsuit $ to LGBT groups. No idea....and agree he comes off as an ass. But there are few heroes in this world. Agree all the same that the effect of his whistleblowing is probably good overall, even if he's a dick.
I think Kluwe is more on the attention whore side and I'm not particularly a fan of him but the Penn State joke was probably more of a mockery of PSU alums and their collective reactions to the Sandusky thing. It's was certainly crass, of course, but I don't think he's joking about it just because something bad happened at the school, more because many alums had their heads in the sand and refuses to believe what happened.
But he's worse than an ass, he's toxic.EvilEmpire said:
Consider that he made fun of something -- child rape -- that not only is horrific in its own right but also feeds the inaccurate, unfair and terribly damaging stereotype of gay men as pederasts.
This is the last guy you want as a poster boy for LGBT issues.
As I indicated this morning, he also is a lawyer's worst nightmare as a client. I'd already have fired him
Goodbye already.
lostjumper said:
Stay out of P&G. It might disappoint you to find just how many of us are hypocrites for making jokes in a locker room-type setting.
Evil Empire makes an excellent point and everyone should re-read it until they absorb the point.
He made fun of child rape in a sports locker room. I mean, there are worse things posted in P&G. I'm not looking to defend him as I think he comes off as an ass, but is that such a huge deal?dcmissle said:
dcmissle said:
Of course you're probably right. What I don't understand is what the desired endstate is for all involved.
Vikings: Get on the right side of LGBT issues while avoiding disruption to the team? Make it go way without damaging the brand? Avoid a big payout in a lawsuit? All of the above?
Kluwe: Recognition as a champion for LGBT issues? Extend his 15 minutes of fame? Get paid? Retribution? All of the above?
LGBT movement leaders/advocates: Improve NFL recognition of LGBT issues? Get more NFL support for LGBT issues? Leverage the media attention in support of LGBT issues in general? All of the above?
I know there must be more angles beyond that, especially on the LGBT side since that isn't some monolithic entity. But I'm not sure what.
So I can easily see how Kluwe being an asshole and lousy client for any lawsuit is damaging for him personally. But I'm less sure about the cause. The cause is so much bigger than Kluwe, and there is so much momentum in other parts of society that I'm having difficulty seeing how Kluwe matters much at all. He's a footnote. To me, the fact that the Vikings conducted an investigation, admit fault, and are taking steps to be accountable, are the most important parts of it all. Especially the admitting fault part.
It just seems like there are ways for the Vikings and LGBT movement advocates to move forward from this in satisfactory ways for each, regardless of Kluwe. The only adversarial piece is Kluwe. I think.
So...we're all just going to ignore Kluwe's accusation about 2 Viking players potentially committing statutory rape?
That would be up to the Minnesota authorities
Interestingly, Kluwe was completely silent about this until the Vikings released unflattering information about him. He then said, let the fun begin and lodged this accusation.
So let the fun begin. It should be investigated like any other charge made in these circumstances.
But let us not pretend Kluwe gave a shit about it. He either was silent then, or is lying now.
Interestingly, Kluwe was completely silent about this until the Vikings released unflattering information about him. He then said, let the fun begin and lodged this accusation.
So let the fun begin. It should be investigated like any other charge made in these circumstances.
But let us not pretend Kluwe gave a shit about it. He either was silent then, or is lying now.
I'm confused, as this whole thing seems to have less to do with "LGBT issues" and more with the NFL's on-going workplace conditions issue. Suspending the coach involved seems like a resolution; whether it was enough is for someone else to determine. Kluwe's potential lawsuit never seemed like the "big deal" here, to me. Kluwe is a professional athlete facing the end of his professional career; of course he'd like to remain relevant and employed or paid.
But regardless of Kluwe's personal agenda, this always seemed more about the locker room culture and what is/is not acceptable for a management (a coach) to say/do to an employee (a player).
But regardless of Kluwe's personal agenda, this always seemed more about the locker room culture and what is/is not acceptable for a management (a coach) to say/do to an employee (a player).
There are several things going on, it seems:
1. Initially and primarily it was about anti-gay workplace conditions. A big part of that, at least, has been addressed. The team hired lawyers to conduct an investigation. They concluded that the coach in question made an anti-gay remark and lied about it. I believe he was suspended for a couple of weeks and will be losing those paychecks.
2. Then there is Kluwe's charge that the team dismissed him, not because of his performance. but because of his whistleblowing role. He is, course, entitled to pursue that as any plaintiff is.
My unsolicited advice to groups advancing equality is to jump off the Kluwe bandwagon at this juncture, both because the resolution described in 1 above seems reasonable, and because of other reasons I have offered today.
And then there is this too -- it is highly likely that Kluwe was separated for performance reasons.
3. Now there are these charges made by Kluwe of statutory rape by teammates. That may be a workplace issue, but probably not. Probably just another of the bad behavior issues rampant through the League IF the allegations are true
1. Initially and primarily it was about anti-gay workplace conditions. A big part of that, at least, has been addressed. The team hired lawyers to conduct an investigation. They concluded that the coach in question made an anti-gay remark and lied about it. I believe he was suspended for a couple of weeks and will be losing those paychecks.
2. Then there is Kluwe's charge that the team dismissed him, not because of his performance. but because of his whistleblowing role. He is, course, entitled to pursue that as any plaintiff is.
My unsolicited advice to groups advancing equality is to jump off the Kluwe bandwagon at this juncture, both because the resolution described in 1 above seems reasonable, and because of other reasons I have offered today.
And then there is this too -- it is highly likely that Kluwe was separated for performance reasons.
3. Now there are these charges made by Kluwe of statutory rape by teammates. That may be a workplace issue, but probably not. Probably just another of the bad behavior issues rampant through the League IF the allegations are true
So he who is without sin is the only one who should cast a stone.
Good to see we aren't setting insanely high standards to report things, only report a crime if you are perfect?
You do realize these kind of attacks on the whistle-blower is the sort of thing that stops the likes of women coming forward on sexual assault. Because they get blame for flirting and causing it etc.
So he's got a twisted sense of humor? That means it's ok to fire him over supporting LGBT rights? How are the two linked?
If he was fired for an inappropriate sense humor then fine, show that.
Good to see we aren't setting insanely high standards to report things, only report a crime if you are perfect?
You do realize these kind of attacks on the whistle-blower is the sort of thing that stops the likes of women coming forward on sexual assault. Because they get blame for flirting and causing it etc.
So he's got a twisted sense of humor? That means it's ok to fire him over supporting LGBT rights? How are the two linked?
If he was fired for an inappropriate sense humor then fine, show that.
dcmissle said:
But that's neither here nor there, which is what KFP was getting at.
Either the accusations are true or they aren't. That bears investigation, even if Kluwe is the second coming of Albert Fish--his moral standing has no bearing on the need to defend those victims.
When did he do this?dcmissle said:
According to this quote...
He fed the accurate, fair and horrifying stereotype of Jerry Sandusky as a pederast.
His joke here is disgusting, but I would say Chris Kluwe has the most credibility of almost anyone else in American sports when it comes to his LGBTQ bonafides.
Kluwe making Sandusky jokes isn't really that big of a deal, and I certainly don't think it somehow cancels out any attention he's brought to LBGT issues, but I guess the problem I have here is that now Chris Kluwe is suddenly the barometer for what is and what isn't OK to joke about in an NFL locker room. That being said, I don't think his lawsuit is going anywhere. The main issue can probably go back to Kluwe's open letter to Emmett Burns. Kluwe was absolutely right, in that scenario, and his points all made plenty of sense, but maybe the Vikings weren't thrilled that this representative of their brand was punctuating his points with "holy fucking shitballs" while dispelling the myth that gays will "Magically turn them into lustful cock monsters" and so forth. Kluwe's message is right, but he certainly could have made his points without saying those things.
I don't think he'll win this lawsuit because I would imagine the Vikings are well within their rights to release somebody for using language like that in public, regardless of what the message was. That's been my problem all along with the guy. He has his NFL soapbox, his heart is in the right place, and he had a real opportunity to get his message out in a way that could be related to a lot of football fans young and old. Instead, it's become the Chris Kluwe show, and that sucks because Chris Kluwe is pretty insufferable.
I don't think he'll win this lawsuit because I would imagine the Vikings are well within their rights to release somebody for using language like that in public, regardless of what the message was. That's been my problem all along with the guy. He has his NFL soapbox, his heart is in the right place, and he had a real opportunity to get his message out in a way that could be related to a lot of football fans young and old. Instead, it's become the Chris Kluwe show, and that sucks because Chris Kluwe is pretty insufferable.
It's illegal to discharge an employee for discriminatory reasons, even if legitimate non-discriminatory reasons exist to justify the discharge.Judge Mental13 said:
I think Kluwe's lawsuit is likely to fail for a variety of reasons, but it won't be because he used bad language in public, made tasteless jokes about Jerry Sandusky, or what have you.
If you fire someone not for what they say but how they say it is that considered discriminatory?
Maybe, maybe not. The employee would argue that your beef about the "how" was a pretext for your real beef with the "what"; the judge would likely let the jury decide, which in the typical case would lead to an out-of-court settlement.Judge Mental13 said:
Don't trip over all the knots on the floor in here.
After reading the last page I'm at a loss for how Kluwe's boorish behavior is just common locker room atmosphere but the coach has to be a bigot committing hate crimes. And there's no allowance for the possibility of coach just hating on Kluwe personally and pushing a button that he knows will get a reaction. Just for the sake of it.
The only winner here is the investigating firm that had to stifle giggles over the silliness of Kluwe while they went through the process. At least they got billable hours out of it.
After reading the last page I'm at a loss for how Kluwe's boorish behavior is just common locker room atmosphere but the coach has to be a bigot committing hate crimes. And there's no allowance for the possibility of coach just hating on Kluwe personally and pushing a button that he knows will get a reaction. Just for the sake of it.
The only winner here is the investigating firm that had to stifle giggles over the silliness of Kluwe while they went through the process. At least they got billable hours out of it.
Huh? I'm not understanding the defense of Kluwe or the analogy to hostile work environment for child molesters -- was part of his argument that there were gay players in the locker room who faced a hostile work environment?
Isn't the problem that it turns out he pretty much did the same as those of whom he was an accuser? It's still a good thing, overall, that he called attention to the predominance of homophobic banter, so all-in-all this is a positive thing in helping tear that down. But as an individual Kluwe comes off just as, unfortunately, his skeptics painted from the start: someone more out for attention than principle. That's disappointing.
Isn't the problem that it turns out he pretty much did the same as those of whom he was an accuser? It's still a good thing, overall, that he called attention to the predominance of homophobic banter, so all-in-all this is a positive thing in helping tear that down. But as an individual Kluwe comes off just as, unfortunately, his skeptics painted from the start: someone more out for attention than principle. That's disappointing.
Tony C said:
I think what some are getting at here - and it's a stance that others understandably may disagree with - is that there is a difference between making immature jokes and being a bigot. Joking about Sandusky and child victims looks ugly when it's thrown out to the public, but I would argue that that is very different than furthering an environment of bigotry, let alone a league-wide environment of bigotry where there are likely a handful of closeted, oppressed gay men. P & G is actually not a terrible example here: the board thrives on immature and workplace inappropriate humor but sexism, racism, and homophobia don't fly and are in plenty of cases outright cause for banning. Kluwe being a meathead who makes light of tragedy shouldn't discredit the very real and very good attention he has brought to fighting systematic hatred of homosexuals in sports.
He's saying that no one who made their views about child molestation known was fired because Kluwe made a tasteless joke.Tony C said:
Someone made the point upthread, but it's a false equivalence to equate Kluwe joking around about the Sandusky case with Priefer's pointed and vehement comments about the place of homosexuals in society, which he thinks should be on an island that gets subsequently nuked. Priefer wasn't joking around. I think we can all agree that Kluwe's was tasteless in his locker-room antics, but Kluwe didn't have that kind of power in his position to fire someone, while Priefer did have the power to fire someone if he didn't like their social viewpoint.
I don't really disagree with the thrust of those two posts, but in re the workplace issue (a red herring issue that caught my attn) the report says
In terms of a false equivalence btw the joke and the Priefer comment, that's probably true they're on different levels. Kluwe was joking (lame, but whatever) and I have no idea if Priefer was being sarcastic or trying to be funny or was somehow trying to express his serious views or some combo, but I guess the only point is that if someone has made himself out to be a hero in terms of cleaning up the cesspool lockerroom culture of football, it'd be better if he is not a part of that cesspool. I personally find cutting a hole in the back of shorts and walking around making jokes about pederasty not just stupid, but also offensive and with at least a hint of homophobia to the degree that pederasty is often incorrectly equated to male homosexuality.
Anyway, I guess my intervention here is pretty much about semantics. Can we all agree that when it comes to assholes Tony Dungy is top of the line? Keith Olbermann -- whose show is really good, I think, pretty much pinned it on the clip that is here:
http://deadspin.com/keith-olbermann-blasts-tony-dungy-1608868014
In terms of a false equivalence btw the joke and the Priefer comment, that's probably true they're on different levels. Kluwe was joking (lame, but whatever) and I have no idea if Priefer was being sarcastic or trying to be funny or was somehow trying to express his serious views or some combo, but I guess the only point is that if someone has made himself out to be a hero in terms of cleaning up the cesspool lockerroom culture of football, it'd be better if he is not a part of that cesspool. I personally find cutting a hole in the back of shorts and walking around making jokes about pederasty not just stupid, but also offensive and with at least a hint of homophobia to the degree that pederasty is often incorrectly equated to male homosexuality.
Anyway, I guess my intervention here is pretty much about semantics. Can we all agree that when it comes to assholes Tony Dungy is top of the line? Keith Olbermann -- whose show is really good, I think, pretty much pinned it on the clip that is here:
http://deadspin.com/keith-olbermann-blasts-tony-dungy-1608868014
Reverend said:
Kluwe's not gay, so your comparison is off.
He's just a guy with an ego out sized relative to the fungibility of his position. Good one on the hostile work environment. If he were as intelligent as he is articulate, he would have gone after the coach for workplace harassment. It would still be a stretch, but not as much as the one he was trying to make by tying it into his activism.
Dirty Sanchez Forever said:
It wasn't meant to be a straight (no pun intended) comparison. What if there were other people around who were gay? Or who shared Kluwe's views?
Joe Dokes and II did a pretty good job getting at my gist but I wanted to push it a step further. When the possibility of law suits or semi-direct confrontation arise, it tends to truncate issues and make us lose sight of what is or was going on. The problem isn't that Priefer made anti-gay statements to harass Kluwe; that's merely an aspect of the problem. In point of fact, legally speaking, the statements inherently make for a hostile workplace environment, it's just a matter of whether or not there is another employee who is situated to feel as such. You don't get to say whatever you want at work just to push someone's buttons--I mean, what kind of junior high bs is that?
Kluwe's shit was crass, sure. But while both fall into the subset of crassness, bigotry and hate is something different. If anything, in Kluwe's stunt, the biggest shittiness would be if there were people present who had been sexually abused themselves or something. But it's not an endorsement of hate against a group of people.
Oh, and Tony C--don't forget who was the first person to tip you off that Dungy was a shit all those years ago. You even gave me crap about it too until I pointed you towards his shitty ass book.
https://twitter.com/ChrisWarcraft/status/500469671334645760
Chris Kluwe @ChrisWarcraft 25m
We've reached an agreement with the Vikings to help a lot of people going forward. More details will be forthcoming next week.
Chris Kluwe @ChrisWarcraft 25m
We've reached an agreement with the Vikings to help a lot of people going forward. More details will be forthcoming next week.