...... they haven’t agreed on anything.Looks bad on the Sox. Take our shit to save yourselves money. Fuck that...
...... they haven’t agreed on anything.Looks bad on the Sox. Take our shit to save yourselves money. Fuck that...
Those rankings are irrelevant as every team value players/prospects differently and have their own rankings internally.View: https://twitter.com/danhayesmlb/status/1225973653805903873?s=21
That kinda reenforces the Red Sox stance imo. Twins are saying “Oh no we wouldn’t give you the #4 ranked guy who’s pitched at lower level, you can have the 3# ranked guy who’s pitched in the majors”
That doesn’t add up at all and just really makes it clear that something is truly up with his medicals.
Just so we are clear. Graterol is a consensus top 3 guy in the Twins system and Balazovic is 6-10. Graterol is ranked higher on the majority of total prospect lists.Those rankings are irrelevant as every team value players/prospects differently and have their own rankings internally.
Bostons gripe is probably legitimate. But at the same time all reports are saying they definitely still want him. Who knows?Just so we are clear. Graterol is a consensus top 3 guy in the Twins system and Balazovic is 6-10. Graterol is ranked higher on the majority of total prospect lists.
The fact Graterol is on the table and Balazovic is off tell you all you need to know about the true value of Graterol. It’s not great.
I'm not clear--is Boston asking for Balazovic instead of Graterol or in addition to Graterol? If the latter, then that's not necessarily a reflection of how they rank the two internally.Just so we are clear. Graterol is a consensus top 3 guy in the Twins system and Balazovic is 6-10. Graterol is ranked higher on the majority of total prospect lists.
The fact Graterol is on the table and Balazovic is off tell you all you need to know about the true value of Graterol. It’s not great.
A swap. The Twins reporter later clarified he was referencing a swap of the two prospects.I'm not clear--is Boston asking for Balazovic instead of Graterol or in addition to Graterol? If the latter, then that's not necessarily a reflection of how they rank the two internally.
The story leaked while they were discussing potential players. They reviewed the medicals of a top50 prospect and raised their concerns. What exactly looks bad about that?Looks bad on the Sox. Take our shit to save yourselves money. Fuck that...
It looks more like Bloom didn't have access to Google and did a really sloppy job putting this trade together. Not a great start.The difference between receiving a prospect who has top end starter potential with good reliever downside vs. a prospect who will most likely never start is ENORMOUS. And the fact it looks like the Twins are balking at swapping in a “lower” ranked prospect who actually does have starting potentially is all you need to know. This is obvious now. They tried to get one over on Bloom and he’s calling them on it. Good for him.
I disagree, the fact is that Graterol is certainly a good return for an end of the rotation starter on a slightly below market deal (because 4/13 is his base salary, there are incentives for starts and innings pitched that bring him much closer to market rate if he’s a full time starter).The difference between receiving a prospect who has top end starter potential with good reliever downside vs. a prospect who will most likely never start is ENORMOUS. And the fact it looks like the Twins are balking at swapping in a “lower” ranked prospect who actually does have starting potentially is all you need to know. This is obvious now. They tried to get one over on Bloom and he’s calling them on it. Good for him.
Can you give us the Google link to Graterol’s full medicals?It looks more like Bloom didn't have access to Google and did a really sloppy job putting this trade together. Not a great start.
You’re missing the point. Graterol in theory is a fantastic return. So much so that it didn’t really make sense at the time this all came out. However, now the Twins are balking at swapping out a lower ranking “starting pitching” prospect.I disagree, the fact is that Graterol is certainly a good return for an end of the rotation starter on a slightly below market deal (because 4/13 is his base salary, there are incentives for starts and innings pitched that bring him much closer to market rate if he’s a full time starter).
It certainly isn’t a reasonable return for Mookie, however. But, honestly, that’s not their problem, it’s Friedman’s and Bloom’s.
Do not walk away from this... Run!You’re missing the point. Graterol in theory is a fantastic return. So much so that it didn’t really make sense at the time this all came out. However, now the Twins are balking at swapping out a lower ranking “starting pitching” prospect.
Basically, the Twins are confirming that Graterol has no chance of being a starter.
The Twins are acquiring an end of the rotation starter. How much do you think those guys are worth? Graterol, apparently, has structural issues that limit him to the role of reliever. But when all you’re getting is a (soon to be) 32 year old 4/5 starter in the deal, a potential relief ace with years of team control is equivalent value.You’re missing the point. Graterol in theory is a fantastic return. So much so that it didn’t really make sense at the time this all came out. However, now the Twins are balking at swapping out a lower ranking “starting pitching” prospect.
Basically, the Twins are confirming that Graterol has no chance of being a starter.
Ultimately, they preferred not to lower payroll via complex, heavily subsidized deals that wouldn't have brought back cost-controlled talent. But presumably they could have done that, though the subsidies might have been ugly. The creative young GM wouldn't have been able to spin gold from straw, as you say. But--to extend your metaphor--what would the long-term consequences (esp. w/r/t the 2021 reset) have been of spinning copper or tin from straw while also keeping Mookie?Alas, the creative young GM cannot spin gold from straw. Math is math. I'm guessing they took a few minutes to explore the pros and cons of resetting now v. 2021, and looking at how it would need to be done in either year.
I'm not much about blindly believing in the brain trust, but the idea that they didn't think to explore other options before offloading their homegrown superstar is...unlikely.
Well are you going to join or what? They're waiting.Are there meetings?
We're gonna outgrow the Woburn rest stop now. Nice work, guys.We meet in the 3rd stall from the left
As noted above, though - cursory googling could’ve told the Red Sox that many people already thought his medicals would lead to him being a reliever, much less private info. It’s very possible LA and the Twins have the opposite opinion - that the Sox knew there was medical concerns, made a preliminary deal knowing that, and are now using the (completely unsurprising) poor medical history to try to go back and get a better deal.It's time to call this trade off. The fact that no team has come up with an acceptable offer after 3 days is all we need to know that we're not being dealt with in good faith
You seem to be saying the Twins and the Dodgers knew more about what the Red Sox knew than the Red Sox did.As noted above, though - cursory googling could’ve told the Red Sox that many people already thought his medicals would lead to him being a reliever, much less private info. It’s very possible LA and the Twins have the opposite opinion - that the Sox knew there was medical concerns, made a preliminary deal knowing that, and are now using the (completely unsurprising) poor medical history to try to go back and get a better deal.
I think this is more likely, frankly - if the medicals were really much worse than expected they probably would’ve just tossed in another prospect by now.
If true that’s a slippery slope for Bloom. Bad business for future dealings.As noted above, though - cursory googling could’ve told the Red Sox that many people already thought his medicals would lead to him being a reliever, much less private info. It’s very possible LA and the Twins have the opposite opinion - that the Sox knew there was medical concerns, made a preliminary deal knowing that, and are now using the (completely unsurprising) poor medical history to try to go back and get a better deal.
I think this is more likely, frankly - if the medicals were really much worse than expected they probably would’ve just tossed in another prospect by now.
I think that the posts that imply that Bloom was completely unaware that Graterol had a history of arm issues are either a. completely disingenuous or b. ignorant of how a front office would work. I know Bloom is new to this post, but does anyone really think that the freaking GM would not GOOGLE a prospect before agreeing to acquire him as a major piece in a trade? C'mon guys. You can be unhappy about the trade, but to imply that the GM agreed to the basics of the trade without doing the equivalence of a Google search shows that you think that he must be a huge idiot. In that case, Tampa Bay must have packed his bags for him.I'm willing to give Bloom the benefit of the doubt on this. Prior to the injury Graterol was starting in the minors, and went to the bullpen after coming back, perhaps Bloom saw that he WAS starting and thought he was still capable until he was able to review all the medicals. Maybe this is just me praying we didn't make a mistake but... I don't know man, this is just bizarre
Unfortunately that sounds like the narrative people are trying to make. Either way I just want this over, one way or anotherThis doesn't seem that bizarre. I don't get the "Red Sox look bad" angle. Trades sometimes fall apart because of medicals. If the Sox found out during that stage that the medical reports and trainers notes on Brusdar indicated there were either major structural issues or doubts about his ability to contribute X amount of innings, why would anyone expect the Sox to proceed with damaged goods?
Who cares how long it takes? The Sox should not cave out of impatience.Unfortunately that sounds like the narrative people are trying to make. Either way I just want this over, one way or another
The best possible spin one can put on this (IMO obv) is that Bloom/BOS thought that they knew better about Graterol's future potential than MIN, who publicly announced two weeks ago that he would be a reliever for them going forward. Conceivably one could argue that was to have him help sooner and better match their timetable, but realistically MIN is as desperate for top of the rotation SPs as any contender and so even if it meant waiting a few years, if MIN thought he could possibly be a top of the rotation guy, it seems unlikely they would move him to the pen instead of just stretching him out.I think that the posts that imply that Bloom was completely unaware that Graterol had a history of arm issues are either a. completely disingenuous or b. ignorant of how a front office would work. I know Bloom is new to this post, but does anyone really think that the freaking GM would not GOOGLE a prospect before agreeing to acquire him as a major piece in a trade? C'mon guys. You can be unhappy about the trade, but to imply that the GM agreed to the basics of the trade without doing the equivalence of a Google search shows that you think that he must be a huge idiot. In that case, Tampa Bay must have packed his bags for him.
I was done watching baseball three months ago, and I will NOT be back for about another few weeks.In my lifetime, there have been three or four players that justified my enjoyment and love for watching the Boston Red Sox. None of the others were homegrown, and none of them exhibited the joy that Mookie Betts has on the field.
I am done watching baseball now. Time to focus on something more productive in my own life.
So if they get off to a 25-5 start you’re still out?In my lifetime, there have been three or four players that justified my enjoyment and love for watching the Boston Red Sox. None of the others were homegrown, and none of them exhibited the joy that Mookie Betts has on the field.
I am done watching baseball now. Time to focus on something more productive in my own life.
Did MN. say they were moving him to the bullpen permanently, or just now? That can be as easy as we need his FB out of the 'pen now while we're going all in on the AL Central, and can't wait for him to build up his innings as a starter... the route to the starting rotation coming out of the pen has a long history, and it's probably going to get more common in the age of the opener. Bloom could've seen deploying him as an opener now and building his innings in Fenway for a few years, but not realized that's a lot less likely to happen without seeing the results of the physical and actual medicals. Which are definitely not on Google.I'd guess this hinges a bit on what Bloom asked MIN about Graterol while they were still discussing it, if he asked 'why did you decide to move him to reliever fulltime?' and got an answer that immediately looked like a lie when he saw the medicals, then I get BOS's irritation. I don't get the part where Graterol then potentially stays in the deal, but presumably we'll hear more specifics once it is done.
You keep saying this as if it is fact. Established back of the rotation starters on market friendly deals are still more valuable than a prospect whose ceiling is relief ace.I’m fairly certain that the Dodgers asked Bloom who would be acceptable from the Twins in a Maeda trade, Bloom gave them that list, and the Twins chose the guy they valued the least off it. After the fact, when Boston’s doctors reviewed the actual medical records they saw something that made Graterol unlikely to be a starter.
The Twins’ position is quite defensible, they’re trading for a 32 year old 4/5 starter, he isn’t worth more than Graterol. This isn’t Levine’s fault, it’s Friedman’s for insisting that he’s only willing to trade damaged goods for an MVP level player and Price on a market rate deal.
Take a look at the spreadsheet over at Cot's. They've been shopping Price and this was the best they could do with him. Who else on the 40 man are candidates for "complex, heavily subsidized deals" that get them to $208 (keeping in mind they have to pay, you know 40 guys). Show your work--who, how much, and who's buying?Ultimately, they preferred not to lower payroll via complex, heavily subsidized deals that wouldn't have brought back cost-controlled talent. But presumably they could have done that, though the subsidies might have been ugly. The creative young GM wouldn't have been able to spin gold from straw, as you say. But--to extend your metaphor--what would the long-term consequences (esp. w/r/t the 2021 reset) have been of spinning copper or tin from straw while also keeping Mookie?
Me too. And I've been very strict about it. Except for the few times I watched a WS DVD.I was done watching baseball three months ago, and I will NOT be back for about another few weeks.
I don't mean to be rude, but I get it. You have said this how many times now?In my lifetime, there have been three or four players that justified my enjoyment and love for watching the Boston Red Sox. None of the others were homegrown, and none of them exhibited the joy that Mookie Betts has on the field.
I am done watching baseball now. Time to focus on something more productive in my own life.
We get it. You don't have to tell us again. All the best in your new-found productivity!In my lifetime, there have been three or four players that justified my enjoyment and love for watching the Boston Red Sox. None of the others were homegrown, and none of them exhibited the joy that Mookie Betts has on the field.
I am done watching baseball now. Time to focus on something more productive in my own life.
Rooker or Gordon would be kind of cool I guess. Duran, Urbina, Enlow would be fine as well.Their best bet at this point is getting a mid range prospect from the twins in addition to Graterol. Ask the Twins for Brent Rooker or Nick Gordon, both who could possibly fill slots in Boston for 2020, or ask for a lottery ticket like Keoni Cavaco
The Red Sox aren't expected to give final approval for a trade based on google search result medical history. This delay/possible withdrawal is the whole reason they get the chance to examine the guy's actual medical history before completing the deal.If true that’s a slippery slope for Bloom. Bad business for future dealings.