Articulating Illiteracy

[SeoulSoxFan]

Watching favorite players retire is hard for a number of reasons. One of which is (of course) that I've grown that much older.

Mayo and Wilfork took over not just as great players but as leaders, which more than a few of us had doubts after Bruschi, Harrison, Seymour, and others retired/left.

Not sure if Mayo is the type to coach, but he could certainly make plenty of TV and radio appearances if he chooses to. One of the most articulate & funny Patriot that I can remember.

 

[The Price Is Wrong]

Not sure if Mayo is the type to coach, but he could certainly make plenty of TV and radio appearances if he chooses to. One of the most articulate & funny Patriot that I can remember.

*wince*


(more; way too much)

And yeah, Mrs. Mayo is beautiful; I hope she's either got Mrs. Wilfork's brains and attitude as well, or some of it has rubbed off from their long association. She may need it in a few decades once Jerod's career begins to truly toll on him.

 

[Pandemonium67]

"*wince*"

I think you're barking up the wrong tree. There's a lot of dumb jocks out there of all stripes. Mayo is not one of them. He's mature, intelligent and expresses himself far better than most of his peers. I don't want to speak for an esteemed poster like SSF, but that's all I assume he meant.

 

[The Price Is Wrong]

I certainly don't think SSF meant to be condescending. But intelligence is a common theme among players and coaches in Belichick-land, and Belichick has emphasized as much publicly. So maybe we should ask why someone would be surprised when they discover a Patriot is "articulate". 65% of NFL players are African-American, so I don't mean to overreact; but most of my black friends are well-educated professionals, and every single one of them has had someone try to compliment them by saying they're "articulate" or "well-spoken". It's a bit of a keyword for them at this point.

Sorry for the tangent; this'll be my last post on the matter. Like most of you, I'm wishing Mayo continued success in whatever's next for him.

 

[kenneycb]

It's more that people are surprised when athletes are articulate because many of them have put scholarly endeavors lower on the priority totem pole.

 

[loshjott]

Yo soy fiesta.

 

[Hoodie Sleeves]

I live in the south now - Jerod Mayo is more articulate than probably 95% of the people (white or black) I run into in my daily life - I don't think calling him articulate is a code word. I think people in New England just don't have an accurate view of the state of public education in this country.

Its more likely a result of the fact that most people don't think of football players as particularly bright. A huge chunk of them basically skate through middleschool, highschool and even college based on their athletics. There are guys in the NFL who can't read.

 

[SeoulSoxFan]

So maybe we should ask why someone would be surprised when they discover a Patriot is "articulate". 65% of NFL players are African-American, so I don't mean to overreact; but most of my black friends are well-educated professionals, and every single one of them has had someone try to compliment them by saying they're "articulate" or "well-spoken".

I think Mayo is articulate in that he's simply better spoken than most of his teammates, even among BB's players (and I'm not sure BB's players are better spoken than others). This regardless of their skin colors.

 

[soxfan121]

Its more likely a result of the fact that most people don't think of football players as particularly bright. A huge chunk of them basically skate through middleschool, highschool and even college based on their athletics. There are guys in the NFL who can't read.

Do you have a source for this?

 

[SeoulSoxFan]

Do you have a source for this?

Hmm, this made me Google and apparently Dexter Manley went through most of his NFL career w/o being able to read: http://www.nytimes.com/1989/05/28/sports/views-of-sport-how-illiteracy-makes-athletes-run.html (article is dated 1989):

Dexter Manley, the All-Pro defensive end for the Washington Redskins, recently came out with an embarrassing confession. He almost made it to the age of 30 without being able to read.

 

[JohnnyK]

Do you have a source for this?

Morris Claiborne scored 4 on the Wonderlic which makes him functionally illiterate.

 

[soxfan121]

Hmm, this made me Google and apparently Dexter Manley went through most of his NFL career w/o being able to read: http://www.nytimes.com/1989/05/28/sports/views-of-sport-how-illiteracy-makes-athletes-run.html (article is dated 1989):

Having done the same search, and found the same 26-year old citation, I asked hoping for something from this century.

Morris Claiborne scored 4 on the Wonderlic which makes him functionally illiterate.

Or maybe he sucks at taking tests? One test score - especially a test with as many issues as the Wonderlic - is far from proof that Claiborne cannot read. He may be dumb as a rock, he may suck at playing football as a result, but it isn't a source showing there "are guys in the NFL who can't read."

 

[NickEsasky]

Well there are about 1700 players in the NFL. The literacy rate in the US is 86%. That means about 14% of the population can't read. If you extrapolate that out to the population of the NFL then one could assume about 238 players in the NFL can't read. But ok that's probably high considering every player in the NFL has to at least attend a college first which most illiterate people will never do. But even if you slash that 238 considerably, I'd say it's probably safe to assume that more than one player in the NFL can't read. But you keep being you man.

 

[soxfan121]

But even if you slash that 238 considerably, I'd say it's probably safe to assume that more than one player in the NFL can't read. But you keep being you man.

Eminently reasonable assumption, and I have no doubt you're right. Asking for a source - as I've tried, and failed, to find one better than Manley - is also reasonable, given the next-level kung-fu some posters on the site exhibit. And as one of our most eminent kung-fu possessing members is fond of pointing out - citation is the basis of civilization, and good writing. If I'm ever gonna make such a claim in published work, I'd need a citation.

Assuming bad faith is your problem, man.

 

[BannedbyNYYFans.com]

If you believe these numbers, 6% of the people who take the Wonderlic are "illiterate".

My father, who grew up in Boston, never learned to read or write. Granted, he quit school at 14 and this was in the 1950s, but I think people would be shocked by how many Americans can't read or write at a functional level even in today's society. My mother took my father to an adult learning center to help him when he was in his mid 40s. It didn't do him any good - he was severely dyslexic and had a violent temper so he didn't have the patience to overcome his disability. But I still remember my mother telling me she was shocked by how many people in those classes had high school degrees and some college education.

Back to the larger point, I despise when someone calls a black person "articulate" as well. However, I'm sure SSF didn't mean it that way. When you hear Mayo speak (see old episodes of Quick Picks w/ Tom Curran), he comes across really well. Often that's not the case for guys who slam their heads violently into other grown men hundreds of times a year. At least that's not the stereotype of a football player. Same could be said about Jeff Saturday, Ben Watson, or Ross Tucker.

 

[NickEsasky]

Eminently reasonable assumption, and I have no doubt you're right. Asking for a source - as I've tried, and failed, to find one better than Manley - is also reasonable, given the next-level kung-fu some posters on the site exhibit. And as one of our most eminent kung-fu possessing members is fond of pointing out - citation is the basis of civilization, and good writing. If I'm ever gonna make such a claim in published work, I'd need a citation.

Assuming bad faith is your problem, man.

If I misread intent then I apologize.

 

[Hoodie Sleeves]

Or maybe he sucks at taking tests? One test score - especially a test with as many issues as the Wonderlic - is far from proof that Claiborne cannot read. He may be dumb as a rock, he may suck at playing football as a result, but it isn't a source showing there "are guys in the NFL who can't read."

That paper is on why the Wonderlic isn't good for job placement. It doesn't give an excuse for Claiborne scoring a 4. Some of the questions on the 'test' are things like:

"Which of the following numbers represent the smallest amount:
A 5
B 3
C .3
D .33
C 31"

If you can't get that question right, I have no problem with someone labeling you as functionally illiterate.

Gerald Gurney (U Oklahoma) did a study and found that among the revenue producing sports, roughly 10% of athletes read at below a 4th grade level. UNC did a study over the course of the 2000s and found that roughly 10% of their football players read at below a 3rd grade level, and more than 60% read at below an 8th grade level.

Calling Mayo articulate isn't a codeword - he is, and his coworkers and competitors generally aren't.

 

[MainerInExile]

We've gone pretty far afield hear, but to blow BB and talk about racism at the same time (both SoSH staples), there is a tendency to talk about the natural abilities of blacks and the hard work of whites. BB has always made a point of not doing this - eg talking about how smart Randy Moss is, and not about how tall and fast he is. I always thought BB didn't get enough credit for that.

 

[SumnerH]

Some of the questions on the 'test' are things like:

"Which of the following numbers represent the smallest amount:
A 5
B 3
C .3
D .33
C 31"

If you can't get that question right, I have no problem with someone labeling you as functionally illiterate.

Huh? That question is like 5 skills beyond basic literacy.

 

[Marciano490]

Huh? That question is like 5 skills beyond basic literacy.

Yeah. That took me a minute.

 

[Byrdbrain]

Well the second C with the 31" which I assume is a typo certainly confuses things. Also showing a problem that is testing (basic)math skills really isn't the best way to prove the point about literacy.


Edited to remove stuff that isn't relevant to the current thread.

 

[Marceline]

Yeah, that question has nothing to do with literacy. Some people have really terrible math skills. I know people that would probably get that wrong despite having a normal level of literacy.

 

[Hoodie Sleeves]

Yeah, that question has nothing to do with literacy. Some people have really terrible math skills. I know people that would probably get that wrong despite having a normal level of literacy.

Knowing what a decimal point means is something taught in 4th grade. Its not an advanced math skill. If you can't get that question right - you can't tell what the price of an item is in a store. Its basic literacy.


Here's another one:

The ninth month of the year is 1 October, 2 January, 3 June, 4 September, 5 May

Here's another one:
1. Assume the first 2 statements are true. Is the final one: 1 true, 2 false, 3 not certain?
The boy plays baseball. All baseball players wear hats. The boy wears a hat.

 

[SumnerH]

Knowing what a decimal point means is something taught in 4th grade. Its not an advanced math skill. If you can't get that question right - you can't tell what the price of an item is in a store. Its basic literacy.

Math is not part of literacy, even basic math. If you don't understand that, you need to go back to 2nd grade.

Here's another one:

The ninth month of the year is 1 October, 2 January, 3 June, 4 September, 5 May

Here's another one:
1. Assume the first 2 statements are true. Is the final one: 1 true, 2 false, 3 not certain?
The boy plays baseball. All baseball players wear hats. The boy wears a hat.

Neither of these questions have anything to do with literacy. Many (most?) illiterate people could answer them if they were read to them, and some literate people might not be able to answer them.

 

[Oppo]

Math is not part of literacy, even basic math. If you don't understand that, you need to go back to 2nd grade.



Neither of these questions have anything to do with literacy. Many (most?) illiterate people could answer them if they were read to them, and some literate people might not be able to answer them.

The NAAL defines literacy as "literacy is the ability to use printed and written information to function in society, to achieve one's goals, and to develop one's knowledge and potential."

Based on that, if you can't answer the questions posted above you are illiterate.

 

[SumnerH]

The NAAL defines literacy as "literacy is the ability to use printed and written information to function in society, to achieve one's goals, and to develop one's knowledge and potential."

Bully for them.

Literate historically means able to read and write, and in the context of the discussion (which started explicitly with Dexter Manley being unable to read until he was 30, and then became about whether there are guys in the NFL who can't read) it's obvious that what we're talking about is literacy in the primary sense and not some other definition.

 

[Hoodie Sleeves]

No, that's not obvious at all - its not what we're talking about.

The NAAL definition is the correct one.

If you can't understand simple sentences, you're illiterate. Literacy isn't just the ability to recognize symbols.

 

[Smokey Joe]

The NAAL definition is for "Functional Literacy". "Literacy" is usually reserved for "Can they read a sentence.".

 

[Tangled Up In Red]

"Articulate" is certainly (sub) conscious racial code.

 

[E5 Yaz]

This right here is the mostest SoSHiest thread of all time this week

 

[jercra]

Well there are about 1700 players in the NFL. The literacy rate in the US is 86%. That means about 14% of the population can't read. If you extrapolate that out to the population of the NFL then one could assume about 238 players in the NFL can't read. But ok that's probably high considering every player in the NFL has to at least attend a college first which most illiterate people will never do. But even if you slash that 238 considerably, I'd say it's probably safe to assume that more than one player in the NFL can't read. But you keep being you man.

Wouldn't this also mean that about 250 SoSH members are illiterate? The NFL certainly has a higher percentage of college attendees (at 100%) than SoSH too so we can't even cut that number down. I'm not saying it's wrong necessarily, but extrapolation is a bitch in small samples.

 

[lexrageorge]

"Articulate" is certainly (sub) conscious racial code.

Seriously?

I don't recall anyone calling Roger Clemens articulate either. It's a reality that some sports stars are more articulate than others. Mayo is one of them. Doesn't necessarily mean he is smarter; some really intelligent people cannot speak worth a damn. And some really articulate players simply don't want to talk to the press at all. But the ability to articulate the English language is one of the few non-physical traits that us casual fans can judge by watching TV. Rodney Harrison was also articulate. It's not a code word, unless society wants to make it one for reasons unclear.

 

[moondog80]

"Articulate" is certainly (sub) conscious racial code.

Sometimes, sure.

 

[PaulinMyrBch]

I can understand if you point out that a black man is articulate without any real context to the statement, that black people could take that as a racially toned statement in the sense that you've generalized black people as not as smart or as well spoken as whites. But when you make the statement in the context of recommending someone for a TV analyst job, it doesn't come across as racial to me. You don't have to go far to find a list of respected black athletes that aren't articulate and have failed at the TV analyst roles. Jerry Rice and Emmitt Smith come to mind. Both well liked and respected, neither could complete a basic sentence with the camera rolling. There is also a list of employed non-articulate black TV analysts who also can't complete a sentence with the camera rolling, but that's a different topic.

 

[Hagios]

This right here is the mostest SoSHiest thread of all time this week

Yup.

While we're on the subject of SoSHiest threads, why does using the c-word or p-word make you a pariah, but using "douche" as a pejorative is ok? The former are just vulgar terms for a part of a woman's body (like dick, or prick), the latter suggests that it is something inherently bad or unclean.

Edit: the answer to my rhetorical question is that SoSHiest threads are all about SWPL status competitions

 

[dbn]

"President Reagan and Clinton were/are very articulate. In contrast, Bush43 is not. President Obama is... um... er... never mind."

Of course it's okay to say a black person is articulate in proper context, and of course it has strong racist undertones when in improper context. I would think that view is obvious, though I grant that it isn't always easy to decipher what context is being implied.

To whom the person is being compared matters. If Mayo is called "articulate" relative to the average American, or perhaps college-educated adults, there is nothing racist about it. If he is being compared to a typical NFL football player, again, I see that as not being racist, though since the NFL is disproportionately black compared to the American populace, it is possible that the person making the comment implies some racial undertones. If Mayo is being compared to the average black American, then it is clearly racial - though not necessarily "racist". Okay, I imagine that, in practice, it is almost always "racist" but, say, in a anthropological discussion, or a discussion about racial bias in public education, etc....

Anecdote: one of my closest friends is a black woman who is both above-average articulate and skilled at public speaking. She is often asked to give readings at weddings. Pretty much every time a little old white lady will approach her afterwards to complement how well she annunciates. (Edit: now that I think about it, she lives in Pittsburgh so maybe the implication isn't that she annunciates well for a black woman, but rather for a PGH native?)

 

[BuellMiller]

wah are yinz talking abaht n'at? picksburgers can speak clearly n'at.

 

[Hagios]

For a website that prides itself on it's statistical savvy this discussion is remarkable for how focused it is on shaming rather than evidence. Just read the very first page of The Black-White Test Score Gap. For those who are not familiar with this book, it was the leading scholarly response to Murray and Hernstein's book The Bell Curve. The introduction was written by Christopher Jencks and Meredith Phillips, liberal social scientists with excellent liberal bona fides, and yet they'd probably get banned or at least heavily shamed from SoSH for the contents of just that first page.

 

[joe dokes]

"Don't confuse being articulate with being intelligent."

--Curt Schilling

 

[glennhoffmania]

This right here is the mostest SoSHiest thread of all time this week

Yes sir. This is awesome. Wow.

Wouldn't this also mean that about 250 SoSH members are illiterate? The NFL certainly has a higher percentage of college attendees (at 100%) than SoSH too so we can't even cut that number down. I'm not saying it's wrong necessarily, but extrapolation is a bitch in small samples.

Well no. Because the ability to read is pretty much a requirement to read a message board. Therefore I can say with confidence that there aren't 250 illiterate SoSH members.

 

[williams_482]

For a website that prides itself on it's statistical savvy this discussion is remarkable for how focused it is on shaming rather than evidence. Just read the very first page of The Black-White Test Score Gap. For those who are not familiar with this book, it was the leading scholarly response to Murray and Bernstein's book The Bell Curve. The introduction was written by Christopher Jencks and Meredith Phillips, liberal social scientists with excellent liberal bona fides, and yet they'd probably get banned or at least heavily shamed from SoSH for the contents of just that first page.

What, for saying that on the aggregate, white people perform better academically than black people? That's true, and there are plenty of reasons for it. It's also pretty much irrelevant to the topic at hand, unless you think that gap (in and of itself) justifies the assumptions aparently implied by calling a black man "articulate."

I assume you wouldn't cite that study in defense of a person who told a black man, "hey, you aren't stupid!"

 

[Hagios]

What, for saying that on the aggregate, white people perform better academically than black people? That's true, and there are plenty of reasons for it. It's also pretty much irrelevant to the topic at hand, unless you think that gap (in and of itself) justifies the assumptions aparently implied by calling a black man "articulate."

I assume you wouldn't cite that study in defense of a person who told a black man, "hey, you aren't stupid!"

You have two groups with offset but overlapping bell curves. It seems that outside the context of racial politics, it is perfectly acceptable to state that a member of the lower performing group does fairly well by the standard of the higher performing group. "You're pretty good at soccer for an American" or "you're pretty tall for a woman". The use of the racially charged code word "articulate" is striking for how much more delicate and circumspect it is, and yet it still gets singled out for shame and scorn.

 

[ALiveH]

To each his own... I don't feel bad at all calling Mayo articulate, because in this context, it is basically saying "you're pretty articulate compared to most other meathead athletes." However, if I met him in person, I definitely wouldn't call him articulate to his face, because a lot of AAs are very sensitive to that particular word (just do a quick google search to see) - I would probably choose a different way to complement him to try to make him feel good about the interaction.

Anyway, isn't this one of those "microagression" mole hills that people turn into mountains?

 

[The Price Is Wrong]

While we're on the subject of SoSHiest threads, why does using the c-word or p-word make you a pariah, but using "douche" as a pejorative is ok? The former are just vulgar terms for a part of a woman's body (like dick, or prick), the latter suggests that it is something inherently bad or unclean.

Edit: the answer to my rhetorical question is that SoSHiest threads are all about SWPL status competitions

Well, I think it's because "douche" doesn't denigrate someone by comparing them to a female body part, but rather, compares them to a device that is useless, but historically used to make women feel bad about themselves. Here's a good article on it, which argues that it's the best (and perhaps only) epithet you can use to specifically denigrate white men, or otherwise high-status people.

Anyway, isn't this one of those "microagression" mole hills that people turn into mountains?

Yeah, probably. I apologize for starting it and detracting from the celebration of a great player.

 

[SumnerH]

No, that's not obvious at all - its not what we're talking about.

The NAAL definition is the correct one.

If you can't understand simple sentences, you're illiterate. Literacy isn't just the ability to recognize symbols.

Jesus Christ. Read the thread. You even started the line of conversation yourself, explicitly phrasing it as "can't read":

There are guys in the NFL who can't read.

Hmm, this made me Google and apparently Dexter Manley went through most of his NFL career w/o being able to read: http://www.nytimes.com/1989/05/28/sports/views-of-sport-how-illiteracy-makes-athletes-run.html (article is dated 1989):

Dexter Manley, the All-Pro defensive end for the Washington Redskins, recently came out with an embarrassing confession. He almost made it to the age of 30 without being able to read.

One test score - especially a test with as many issues as the Wonderlic - is far from proof that Claiborne cannot read. He may be dumb as a rock, he may suck at playing football as a result, but it isn't a source showing there "are guys in the NFL who can't read."

Well there are about 1700 players in the NFL. The literacy rate in the US is 86%. That means about 14% of the population can't read. If you extrapolate that out to the population of the NFL then one could assume about 238 players in the NFL can't read.

 

[wiffleballhero]

Although anecdotal, my guess is that the collective experience of SOSH could probably create a relatively accurate picture of the realities behind the educational experiences of DI football/basketball athletes, at least from the other side of the desk.

In graduate school I taught a handful of PAC-10 (at the time) football players, some of whom were slated to be 'can't miss' NFL draft picks (none of them actually made it, IIRC). In my experience, these guys were really decent people and all of that, but the level of academic 'assistance' they received was incredible. Were they illiterate? No. Were they in the bottom 1/4 of ability and preparedness compared to many of the open admission community college students I was also teaching? Yes. Were they at an otherwise very elite, 'world class' research university? Sure.

I think it is probably unlikely that you could be at one of these schools in the top tier of DI and really be illiterate. I mean Jesus, all of that assistance was not just about other people writing their papers. But there are also some obviously odd elements to the educational experience for these players. When Gronk said that the last book he read was "A Mockingbird to Remember" I somehow doubt that Nick Saban felt a lost opportunity to have grabbed another English major with a special attachment to the region.