I mean, it's entirely possible that goal difference will come into play if the US ties Sweden, but they probably don't need to celebrate their goals anymore.
The celebrating is pretty bad.I mean, it's entirely possible that goal difference will come into play if the US ties Sweden, but they probably don't need to celebrate their goals anymore.
The USWNT are horrendous frontrunners, always have been.Still celebrating like they just won the World Cup. I don’t get it.
Better Counterpoint: These people are professional entertainers, paid to give 100% for 90 minutes and to relish every moment out there. If they're not stone cold killers who want to score every time they touch the ball, they wouldn't even be on the roster. If they just sat back and kicked it around, they'd get booed. It ceased being a game by 55', what do you think the people who paid hundreds of euros for a ticket wanted to see? More scoring, or "mercy"? This isn't youth sports, there's no character lesson to be taught here, they're professionals earning a paycheck. The purpose isn't skill-building or even recreation, it's entertainment. And maybe it's Maximus doing his "are you not entertained?" bit, but it's still way more entertaining to watch Morgan net 5 than it is to watch them kick the ball back and forth.You know, MURICA! and all that but there’s a point where you can actually just ping it around the back for a bit. It’s not like they’re bringing on second stringers who need to prove they belong. I get that they can’t run the ball 3 times and punt or whatever but still.
Five goals in 80th minute and later is too much.
Additionally it’s possible now that Sweden tries to embarrass Thailand too if GD might matter. Most youth tourneys cap GD at 4 per game. Something similar should be done until talent equalizes.
COUNTERPOINT: We loved the US Dream Team and those blowouts.
Why can't you? It's the word cup.You can compare the Thai women's team to professional NFL athletes if you like.
EDIT: I'm loosening a bit on this, but I'll leave my post in it's entirety.Why can't you? It's the word cup.
I'm not saying that you hold this view, but an awful lot of the hand wringing that is going around really does come off as griping that the little ladies did not act with sufficient deportment befitting their gender.
I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.Why can't you? It's the word cup.
I'm not saying that you hold this view, but an awful lot of the hand wringing that is going around really does come off as griping that the little ladies did not act with sufficient deportment befitting their gender.
The three time word champions showed up and kicked ass. It's certainly not their fault or their problem that there aren't enough women's teams to make it so that all 24 can be competitive.
I hate the foot off the gas argument. It's disrespectful of the other team and I think it's exactly the same as the Patriots. This wasn't some November friendly. These games count, and FIFA says goals count.
If it were the third game of the round and they were 5 goals ahead in goal difference or whatever then maybe, but even then, I really don't give a crap that they kept playing the game that they went to France to play.
The American women in Soccer and Basketball are insufferable, at best. Most of their games are like MLB teams playing a Dutch professional league team. They have massive advantages, as do other western nations like Canada, over the rest of the world's female athletes, and generally rub it in and humiliate their opponents rather than recognize, how hard those women have it. When they do mention equality, rather than mention the need for other countries to provide the same opportunity to play sports they enjoyed, it is usually to complain that events, and leagues that are operating at a loss owe them more money because the men in leagues with Billion dollar profits earn more money. It's like Ruben Studdard demanding pay equity with Kelly Clarkson. The same can be said of the USa and Canadian's women's hockey teams, but they at least have each other to bash at. But to give them their due, a few times both those squads have shown notable mercy to outmatched teams.The USWNT are horrendous frontrunners, always have been.
Will be interesting to see how the new iteration reacts to a challenge, some of the past iterations got both shaky, and petulant when they had an actual match, and as the gap between them and the top teams closes that might be a ticket home.
The man-whining happening in this thread - as far as I can tell all of you are men, right? - is mind boggling. Boo hoo LOL is correct. You just scored your first WC goal, you celebrate. Sorry if it's 9-0 and the other team is gassed. You just broke the individual scoring record in a WC game, you celebrate. Sorry if it makes announcers wonder if it's the right thing because the other team looks really sad. You're the most brash, outspoken person on the #1 team in the world, when literally every other top-5 team thinks you're not as good this time around, and you score (even if the shot wasn't perfect and you actually gave the goalie a chance to make a save - but you know, she didn't, so I guess the shot was still "okay") YOU CELEBRATE. Sorry if the fact that you're a beast on the field even when you're not perfect offends the senses of critics and "fans" and middle-everything white men on their couches (maybe this is too far, but honestly, this is really pissing me off). Fuck all of this noise. I hate the crying in here from many people who only came in to shit on the USWNT - this time it's for blowing the doors off of an inferior opponent and enjoying themselves while doing it in the biggest tournament in all of sport. Last time it was because they DIDN'T blow the doors off of an inferior opponent in the biggest tournament in all of sport. If this were hockey or football or group play of the team "you" cheer for in the Men's World Cup, I imagine no one here would have the slightest hint of wadded panties; maybe one or two of you would arch a brow. Maybe.
Just FYI from a woman: women are just as competitive as men, especially women at the top of the mountain, which is just, you know, like men. I mean, the idea that they aren't or shouldn't be because it makes men uncomfortable or cringe - which is what all this hand wringing really comes down to - is what keeps this world so massively messed up for women. Even the women who are doing the handwringing out there in the world are doing it because someone, somewhere (which is to say everyone, everywhere) told them there's a certain way to BE as a woman, and celebrating your 5th goal in a blowout on a global broadcast just isn't it. It makes people feel icky, so stop it already!
This isn't your grandma or wife or daughter or that cute college soccer player you see in Starbucks. These women could crush every goddamned one of you with their thighs and shit down your throat before you hit the ground when they let go. You respect the game by playing it to the best of your ability, and by loving the outcome of your hard work and commitment and showing that love in whatever way you feel like showing it. And when the final whistle blows, you shake the hands of your opponents, you wish them the best, and you move on to whoever is next, knowing that 13-0 means only one thing now: you're sitting in the driver's seat should a tie breaker come into play. Oh, maybe two things: the other teams are going to have to earn the cup; you're not giving it to them, and now they all know it.
The USWNT didn't come to Paris to hug it out during a 90 minute match. They didn't come to Paris to help other countries make inroads in how they treat female athletes. They didn't come to make viewers comfortable. They didn't come to fucking bake a cake in the kitchen. They came to rip the throats out of the competition, and to defend their goddmaned well earned World Cup Championship. They can do all that other crap on any other stage in their sport - but NOT this one.
I will absolutely not stop it. The discussing it as if it is about “time and place” is insulting. time and place my butt. It’s ALWAYS about something else when it comes to women excelling at something that is traditionally a man’s domain. Except it isn’t. Ever ever ever. Just because you’re not trying to be sexist in how you view this doesn’t mean you are not being sexist. And just because you don’t realize it also doesn’t mean it’s not happening.Stop it. You’ve missed the point completely. The fact that we’re arguing about if the celebrations were a bit too much has nothing to do with women and everything to do with time and place.
This has nothing to do with the sex of the athlete. Nothing. In this thread there are comparisons to Brazil/Germany not because they are men, but because it’s the same sport on the same stage.
This thread has had good analysis of the women’s game and people are into it. Your post is insulting.
I will absolutely not stop it. The discussing it as if it is about “time and place” is insulting. time and place my butt. It’s ALWAYS about something else when it comes to women excelling at something that is traditionally a man’s domain. Except it isn’t. Ever ever ever. Just because you’re not trying to be sexist in how you view this doesn’t mean you are not being sexist. And just because you don’t realize it also doesn’t mean it’s not happening.
Do you really think we wouldn’t be talking about this if it happened at the Men’s World Cup? Or as SFIC said the FA Cup?
Honest answer. I do.Luckysox, honest question, do you watch soccer other than the USWNT?
OK, I honestly am not trying to be a jerk here. In my view we were having a back-and-forth debate about the celebrations, with no name-calling, wondering if they were going a bit too far, and comparing what the reaction would have been if the celebrations were that exuberant in other similar situations. By the end the consensus was that there was nothing wrong with scoring the 13 goals (because goal differential counts) but that they could have dialed down the enthusiasm a little bit on the last few goals. Later on yesterday I saw Julie Foudy say the same thing on ESPN, so I thought it was reasonable.Honest answer. I do.
You’re wrong. I am criticizing, as sexist, the whining and complaining here and in the broader sports world, regarding the USWNT not being respectful enough or nice enough while dismantling an inferior foe on the grandest stage in all of sport, and not understanding the right time and place for the celebration of said dismantling. I think this criticism, of this team, after this game, is inherently sexist. I do not think that this criticism would be happening at the highest level of any men's sport. If it did, it would be much less intense, and much more based on the laundry. Example: if the Bruins skate to, let's say an 8-0 win tonight, would any of you who might also be hockey fans feel as if they should tone down their celebrations after a goal? I wouldn't!! At what point would you hope they'd start holding back when they have the chance to score? I would say NEVER! How about back in game 1 when they actually put up a 7 spot? Did anyone feel they should have taken it easy? I kept thinking, and am pretty sure I read in the game thread, "Pour it on!!" It was only the 1st game of the series, of a possible 7 - should they have held off a bit because the Blues looked, on that night, to be an inferior opponent on every level? Do you think they felt bad for STL? Should they have been nicer because it would have been in the best interests of hockey? And if that answer is "Well, it's not in the best interests of hockey!" I would ask you why, then, is it in the best interests of soccer in this instance?If I read Lucky correctly, I don’t think that matters. It seems like she’s saying that any criticism here, made by a man of/toward women footballers, is intrinsically sexist. Please tell me I’m wrong.
I think I addressed the 1st bolded in the last post I made, or I hope I did. I guess I just disagree that the same standard is being used.OK, I honestly am not trying to be a jerk here. In my view we were having a back-and-forth debate about the celebrations, with no name-calling, wondering if they were going a bit too far, and comparing what the reaction would have been if the celebrations were that exuberant in other similar situations. By the end the consensus was that there was nothing wrong with scoring the 13 goals (because goal differential counts) but that they could have dialed down the enthusiasm a little bit on the last few goals. Later on yesterday I saw Julie Foudy say the same thing on ESPN, so I thought it was reasonable.
Where did we go wrong in our thought process here? Is it bad that we were holding them to the same standard we would hold a men's team? Wouldn't it be worse to treat women's football as a different sport with different standards than the men's game? I compared it to an early round FA Cup game where Liverpool might be playing a team from a few divisions below them because I thought it was a good comp to the relative skill levels of the USWNT and Thailand.
I have watched every USWNT game in the World Cup and Olympics since the 1996 Atlanta Games. I've watched a good number of their friendlies as well. I've seen them pummel teams nearly this badly before, but I've never seen them celebrate the later goals that much. Yeah, I get it being a big deal for Pugh scoring her first WC goal, but for multi-time World/Olympic champs like Rapinoe, Lloyd, and Morgan it was a little surprising. I want to see them win as much as anyone else, enthusiastically celebrated 2015, criticized FIFA and US Soccer for making them play on turf when they don't do that for the men, and I also think that they should get every dollar that they can negotiate from US Soccer. I legitimately want to know where, in your opinion, my thinking is flawed so I can reflect on it.
Good Post. I am a man who coaches very competitive varsity girls basketball. Several of the players in our program have gone on to play major D-1 college over the past 10 years. This discussion is a major topic and point of contention right now in our region. Many of the female athletes and their coaches are beyond frustrated with the double standard and blatant sexist expectations for female competitors. I can say unequivocally that female athletes are expected to smile and be and play nice at all times. Same goes with the coaches even if those coaches are male. Our girls cannot so much as look at an official the wrong way without getting a T. I cannot literally say anything without getting a T. I have received one T in my career and that was this year in a rivalry game in the 4th quarter of a tie game when my PG was taken out on a clear trip in space and no call was made. It was the second time it had occurred in that game. I yelled "Unbelievable!" as I walked away from the official and he T'd me up. Meanwhile, our boys coach gets in the faces of officials, points his finger, and rants and raves much to the delight of the crowd, our alumni, and our administration. If I did 4% of what he does I would be fired and not given another girls job in our region. It is that bad. The same expectations go with sportsmanship toward our opponents. While boys will bragg, point to the crowd or to themselves, and show off constantly, our girls are expected to maintain strict decorum at all times. It is nauseating to be in a meeting with my AD the day after a game because I had a player tell the crowd who had taunted all game to shush. She was suspended by my AD for one game (btw, the principal is female and agreed with the suspension). Meanwhile, a JV boys player pushed an opposing player this season and received a stern warning. This is common among our region and from what I can gather at national coaches meetings it's even worse in less progressive areas. "Be nice" is a phrase I do not go aa week without hearing to describe how my girls should behave.You’re wrong. I am criticizing, as sexist, the whining and complaining here and in the broader sports world, regarding the USWNT not being respectful enough or nice enough while dismantling an inferior foe on the grandest stage in all of sport, and not understanding the right time and place for the celebration of said dismantling. I think this criticism, of this team, after this game, is inherently sexist. I do not think that this criticism would be happening at the highest level of any men's sport. If it did, it would be much less intense, and much more based on the laundry. Example: if the Bruins skate to, let's say an 8-0 win tonight, would any of you who might also be hockey fans feel as if they should tone down their celebrations after a goal? I wouldn't!! At what point would you hope they'd start holding back when they have the chance to score? I would say NEVER! How about back in game 1 when they actually put up a 7 spot? Did anyone feel they should have taken it easy? I kept thinking, and am pretty sure I read in the game thread, "Pour it on!!" It was only the 1st game of the series, of a possible 7 - should they have held off a bit because the Blues looked, on that night, to be an inferior opponent on every level? Do you think they felt bad for STL? Should they have been nicer because it would have been in the best interests of hockey? And if that answer is "Well, it's not in the best interests of hockey!" I would ask you why, then, is it in the best interests of soccer in this instance?
I'm certain some of you are not very sexist in your regular lives at all, and I'm sure a lot of you don't mean to be even when you are. But I'm just as certain some of you are sexist in your regular lives and likely don't think about it much at all. And I know for a fact that plenty of members of this site who are men - plenty, not all - are absolutely sexist in this here because they can be. It's nice that people call them out when it's obvious. I understand that this particular criticism about this particular team does not seem obvious to many of you. But it is VERY obvious to me and to most of the women who I have been teammates with and who I am friends with that follow soccer (and many other women's sports) and are watching these matches. I've had this discussion today with a large group of my college basketball teams' alumnae, and out of about 25 of us in the chat, there's only 1 who thinks they should have held back, at 10 goals. If this happened in the men's WC, say for example, Germany vs. any developing nation that was in their 1st Cup appearance, and Germany dropped a 13 spot on said nation, no one would EXPECT that the men should have pulled back. No one. It would be discussed, but more like this: Commentator: "Wow, you have to wonder if they considered just passing it back and forth there across the field, but when the defense is that porous, what can be expected? I mean, how can the best #10 in the world NOT score when the ball is funneled through to him so easily? It would be disrespectful to the game not to finish there." That'd be about the end of it, I think.
If people want to get pissy about the celebrations, fine. But even this, I think, is about an ingrained idea that women are "nicer" than that, and should feel badly for their opponent when kicking their ass on the field at this level. Even the "greater good of growing the game" argument rings hollow to me. This isn't YMCA 7&8 year olds. I think something that is actually a symptom of systemic sexism is being wrapped in this idea of "time and place" and "respect," when in fact it is about the level of discomfort people can tolerate when watching or experiencing something that challenges everything they feel, and in fact how they actually "are" in the world. Women aren't supposed to be this ruthless. Obviously many of you disagree. But then, none of you walk around in this world as a woman, I don't think.
Out of curiosity, do you believe this should apply to all sports? For example, do you believe that WNBA players should be paid the same as their NBA counterparts? I'm not asking to be difficult or contrary, I'm asking because I'm genuinely interested in your thoughts on this. I can see both sides of the argument, on one hand, if the women are doing the same work as the men then should be paid the same, but on the other side there is the supply and demand economics.As for the 2nd bolded, they should get the exact same pay as their male counterparts, period. And I think that anyone who thinks they don't deserve as much pay is relying on sexist building blocks to form that opinion.
I don't think it's necessarily sexist to take objection to what some might consider excessive celebrations late in a total beatdown — as long as you have a track record of doing so in all scenarios — but this really rings true to me. I think male soccer fans would discuss similar sportsmanship issues if they came up in the context of a men's game, but I think it's undeniably true that a rather minor issue like what happened in the US-Thailand game (if you even consider it to be an issue at all, which many people reasonably don't) would not get nearly as much attention if it weren't a women's game.Just as an FYI, the USWNT is the 4th story on my local news tonight - not for their play and their winning, but for causing a "controversy over sportsmanship at the World Cup." Local. News. Do we think a men's team would experience a similar fate?
WNBA players deserve the same player compensation as a percentage of overall revenue as their NBA counterparts, yes. It's something they've been fighting for but haven't gotten yet. Many of the top women have to take seasons off to play overseas to make decent money, which stinks.Out of curiosity, do you believe this should apply to all sports? For example, do you believe that WNBA players should be paid the same as their NBA counterparts? I'm not asking to be difficult or contrary, I'm asking because I'm genuinely interested in your thoughts on this. I can see both sides of the argument, on one hand, if the women are doing the same work as the men then should be paid the same, but on the other side there is the supply and demand economics.
I can't speak for soccer, but I can for basketball (I'm connected to the WNBA, FWIW). WNBA players do not "do the same work" as NBA players. The season isn't even close to as long, especially counting playoffs. And the simple economics of the two are light years apart. The WNBA would not exist if it wasn't heavily subsidized by the NBA. The NBA...has no such problems. And I'm someone who is a HUGE supporter of women's athletics, love the WNBA and women's sports of all kinds, and have a wife who played D1 sports and have a daughter who plays college basketball. But the realities are the realities.Out of curiosity, do you believe this should apply to all sports? For example, do you believe that WNBA players should be paid the same as their NBA counterparts? I'm not asking to be difficult or contrary, I'm asking because I'm genuinely interested in your thoughts on this. I can see both sides of the argument, on one hand, if the women are doing the same work as the men then should be paid the same, but on the other side there is the supply and demand economics.
On this topic, we had a pretty detailed discussion about it when the lawsuits were first filed. I think in principle everyone agrees that the pay should be equalized. The complexity comes in that the pay structures are totally different for the men's and women's teams. The men are paid if they are called into the team only, while the women are signed to contracts which pays them salaries whether they are called in or not, whether they are injured or take a leave for pregnancy, and they are provided medical benefits that the men aren't. It seems like it's designed to combine their participation on the USWNT with the NWSL in an attempt to keep the league running, while on the men's side the USMNT money they earn is not in any way related to their club salaries (whether they play for MLS or a foreign league). I'd be interested to hear your opinion on how best to equalize the salaries if these different structures are maintained, whether the different structures should be scrapped and the NWSL should be allowed to sink or swim on its own, etc.As for the 2nd bolded, they should get the exact same pay as their male counterparts, period. And I think that anyone who thinks they don't deserve as much pay is relying on sexist building blocks to form that opinion.
FTFYI get that people may be sensitive to whether people are criticizing them solely because they are women. But really, ifMo SalahJurgen Klopp ran halfway across the field wildly celebratinghis 5th goala freak victory off a freak 96th-minute goal from awith thebenchwarmer in a derby,13-0 wipeout of Wrexham in the 3rd round of the FA Cup,does anyone think he wouldn't have been criticized and mocked for it? Including from his own fans? Probably not, since it's a just a game for him but the World Cup for the other side....
Score all you can, goal differential counts. But yeah, at some point dial the celebrations back a bit. At least Thailand didn't complain about the wind
So, assuming the situations are equal for a second (I’m glad you brought it up), Klopp was fined and apologized. Should the USWNT get the same treatment?FTFY
I don't think anyone here is defending ESPN or Fox against what you are saying. It is a really stupid thing to have as a multi day story and if FIFA doesn't want to see 13-0 score lines they should remove GD and Goals scored as tie breakers.Just as an FYI, the USWNT is the 4th story on my local news tonight - not for their play and their winning, but for causing a "controversy over sportsmanship at the World Cup." Local. News. Do we think a men's team would experience a similar fate?
The man-whining happening in this thread - as far as I can tell all of you are men, right? - is mind boggling.
On this topic, we had a pretty detailed discussion about it when the lawsuits were first filed. I think in principle everyone agrees that the pay should be equalized. The complexity comes in that the pay structures are totally different for the men's and women's teams. The men are paid if they are called into the team only, while the women are signed to contracts which pays them salaries whether they are called in or not, whether they are injured or take a leave for pregnancy, and they are provided medical benefits that the men aren't. It seems like it's designed to combine their participation on the USWNT with the NWSL in an attempt to keep the league running, while on the men's side the USMNT money they earn is not in any way related to their club salaries (whether they play for MLS or a foreign league). I'd be interested to hear your opinion on how best to equalize the salaries if these different structures are maintained, whether the different structures should be scrapped and the NWSL should be allowed to sink or swim on its own, etc.
The one thing everyone immediately agreed on is that the women should never have been forced to play the 2015 World Cup on turf, and they should be receiving the same per diem and hotel/travel accommodations as the men. There really isn't any excuse for there to be a difference in those benefits.