That's good to hear.It has been discussed quite a bit on 98.5 during the mid day and afternoon shows.
That's good to hear.It has been discussed quite a bit on 98.5 during the mid day and afternoon shows.
I think you are being disingenuous here. This wasn't a fight between a couple of women who were squaring off at a party over a spilled beer. If they videotaped that and posted it on World Star or something, that would be cringeworthy. This was the beating of a defenseless teenager by two older women (how much older we don't know). But that's really the crux of it. Also, the only one who was "barley known" was the victim. In one of the articles one of the women was described as dating one of the players.What did she accuse Verdugo of, again? Underage drinking and videoing a fight between 3 girls he barely knew?
Verdugo’s actions are cringeworthy. The level of overkill in this thread is actually frightening.
I tried looking for it yesterday and couldn't find it. It sounds as though SI got it and decided not to publish it since it named the players and no charges were brought.Has anyone read the police report referenced in the Quiroli and Sports Illustrated articles?
We don't know for sure but the very first post in the thread links to an article/blog post that says the two women were a "few years older". So presumably 19 or 20.This was the beating of a defenseless teenager by two older women (how much older we don't know). But that's really the crux of it.
From your fingertips to the ear of the great BABiP. May it be so...If this falls through and BOS does not end up with Verdugo, I am giving Laddie and the rest of this thread like 7% credit, well done (possibly).
Yeah, I'm sure that Yankees fans are eager for the deal to fall through. Either way, they probably get to face Price and if the deal falls through, there is no way the Sox will sign either Mr. Betts or any other top-level player the following year. Yeah, good job, Laddie.If this falls through and BOS does not end up with Verdugo, I am giving Laddie and the rest of this thread like 7% credit, well done (possibly).
An organization as big and well-resourced as the Dodgers, especially one whose employees are disproportionately young men, should have sexual misconduct policies and protocols so clear and well reinforced that staff can recite them in their sleep. Kapler should not have had to think about what to do. If he did, that's an organizational failure, not just his. 2015 is not that long ago.Take this out of a sports team for a moment.
You're a supervisor. You get a credible report that something of this nature has been committed by 2-3 members of your staff. Do you pass the buck upstairs, or do you take responsibility for the behavior of those you supervise and contact authorities on your own?
"I passed along what I knew to my superiors and advised the victim to do something about it" wouldn't help me sleep better at night
They could have spent months defining "policies and protocols" and they still wouldn't have anticipated that a player might record a video of two women beating up a teenager.An organization as big and well-resourced as the Dodgers, especially one whose employees are disproportionately young men, should have sexual misconduct policies and protocols so clear and well reinforced that staff can recite them in their sleep. Kapler should not have had to think about what to do. If he did, that's an organizational failure, not just his. 2015 is not that long ago.
FWIW, not really rooting for anything here. My post was solely about the (hopeful?) potential power of a message board to influence a team, but it's a moot point as it looks pretty likely that Verdugo will be traded to BOS in the next day or two.Yeah, I'm sure that Yankees fans are eager for the deal to fall through. Either way, they probably get to face Price and if the deal falls through, there is no way the Sox will sign either Mr. Betts or any other top-level player the following year. Yeah, good job, Laddie.
What would sexual misconduct policies have to do with Verdugo? He didn’t assault anyone.An organization as big and well-resourced as the Dodgers, especially one whose employees are disproportionately young men, should have sexual misconduct policies and protocols so clear and well reinforced that staff can recite them in their sleep. Kapler should not have had to think about what to do. If he did, that's an organizational failure, not just his. 2015 is not that long ago.
The question that I was responding to wasn't particularly about Verdugo. It was about what Kapler should have done when the girl and/or her grandmother (not sure I understand the sequence there) contacted him about the assault on the girl. And my point is that framing this as a moral quandary for him is basically letting the Dodgers off the hook.What would sexual misconduct policies have to do with Verdugo? He didn’t assault anyone.
it's such a mess that we even have to ask this questionThey could have spent months defining "policies and protocols" and they still wouldn't have anticipated that a player might record a video of two women beating up a teenager.
What should Kapler have done?
I don’t remember the exact timeline of events but it is important to note that the police couldn’t open a full investigation because the victim refused to cooperate with them.it's such a mess that we even have to ask this question
he should have gone to the goddamn police
i'm pretty sure this was after kapler ran it up the chain of commandI don’t remember the exact timeline of events but it is important to note that the police couldn’t open a full investigation because the victim refused to cooperate with them.
And this is what I was trying to get at earlier in the difference between professional responsibility to the Dodgers and a moral obligation as a human being.i'm pretty sure this was after kapler ran it up the chain of command
but also she's a minor, and there were witnesses (edit: and cell phone video!), you don't need her cooperation to investigate and press charges
Would the police have considered someone recording a video of two women beating up a teenage girl to have been a crime? If they had arrested Verdugo, what would the charges have been?it's such a mess that we even have to ask this question
he should have gone to the goddamn police
Has anyone named Verdugo is the player who videoed the fight? How severe was the fight?What did she accuse Verdugo of, again? Underage drinking and videoing a fight between 3 girls he barely knew?
Not defending Verdugo (and don’t want him in the team,) but what exactly were his actions?Verdugo’s actions are cringeworthy.
The assault itself is a crime. That act itself should have been reported, along with that of the player who did assault the teenager.Would the police have considered someone recording a video of two women beating up a teenage girl to have been a crime? If they had arrested Verdugo, what would the charges have been?
In all likelihood accessory to criminal assault and battery of a minorWould the police have considered someone recording a video of two women beating up a teenage girl to have been a crime? If they had arrested Verdugo, what would the charges have been?
Kapler wasn't a witness to the assault and if he didn't have access to the video, I doubt if the police would have taken any action. If they did, their interest would likely have been limited to the women that assaulted the victim.The assault itself is a crime. That act itself should have been reported, along with that of the player who did assault the teenager.
This isn't just about Verdugo
Does it matter how old the two women who beat the 17-year-old were? Does it matter whether the player who filmed the beating knew how old they all were? Does it matter how severe the beating was?In all likelihood accessory to criminal assault and battery of a minor
Why? If I’m at a party and a fight breaks out, you’re saying I am at risk of being arrested and charged with a crime unless I jump in to try to stop it?In all likelihood accessory to criminal assault and battery of a minor
the short answer to each of those questions is no, i think. ages of the women doing the assaulting don't matter. assault of a minor is dependent on the victim's age, not the relative ages of those involved.Does it matter how old the two women who beat the 17-year-old were? Does it matter whether the player who filmed the beating knew how old they all were? Does it matter how severe the beating was?
I'd think the person witnessing the assault has to know the person being assaulted is a minor. If this is a case of a 20-year-old punching a 17-year-old, that might not be the case.the short answer to each of those questions is no, i think. ages of the women doing the assaulting don't matter. assault of a minor is dependent on the victim's age, not the relative ages of those involved.
In what way?honestly, him being present for the assault could probably result in being charged with assault outright, because he was, in a manner, a participant of the crime.
Based on the articles, there are three alleged crimes, only one of them "open-and-shut."lack of moral character from Kapler/the Dodgers and an CJ system that generally doesn't give a shit about women are the only reasons no one is in jail for this. it should have been an open and shut case, even without the victim's cooperation.
because he did absolutely nothing criminally wrong even if you take the worst read of it.why are you trying so hard to find an out for this kid?
Why are you trying so hard to lock him up? You may not like him on a personal level and no one is going to ever extricate Mookie's amazingness to this kids lack of it, but really as far as you know he is not actually a criminal.why are you trying so hard to find an out for this kid?
Legally, no.*Does it matter how old the two women who beat the 17-year-old were? Does it matter whether the player who filmed the beating knew how old they all were? Does it matter how severe the beating was?
No. They are not crimes.there's plenty of evidence to suggest that he was either present for the assault or affiliated in some way with those who committed it, both of which are crimes. that's more than enough reason to investigate, even if you think the victim isn't going to be cooperative.
if he wasn't, then why did the dodgers make such concerted efforts not to go to the police? Baldwin wasn't enough of a prospect to protect like that.
Depending on jurisdiction, posting a video of someone being beaten can be construed as a form of cyberbullying, online harassment, etc.Legally, no.*
Morally, yes.
*Filming a fight between perfect strangers would likely be nothing at all, from the perspective of criminal liability. (Depending on AZ law). Here, we only have an indication he filmed a fight. Overall reporting isn't detailed, however.
Caveat is that some actions, in some jurisdictions, might be criminal. For example, encouraging someone to batter a minor might be child endangerment. Directing them to do so would be accessory liability. Failing to report an assault and battery on a minor might be something, depending. . .and so on and so forth. So yes, the particulars matter, but here, nothing we know seems to ring the bell of potential criminal liability.
Suddenly a lot of people in ivory towers (not just here but everywhere) maybe because they don't want Mookie dealt or don't like the return but this expresses my thoughts exactly, thank you.Watching and videotaping a couple of young women (who were apparently strangers to Verdugo) fight seems like a big nothingburger. Posting it was crass and showed lack of judgment, but that's hardly the major felony it's being made out to be.
Well, I'm not barred in AZ, and caselaw can strongly affect written statutes. However, clicking on the link you provided gets us to: https://www.azleg.gov/ars/13/02921.htmDepending on jurisdiction, posting a video of someone being beaten can be construed as a form of cyberbullying, online harassment, etc.
ETA: Cyberbullying laws by State (AZ is a criminal-liability state)
I know I post here less often less often than the planet gets the treat of a super blood wolf moon, but I’m posting now because this is flat out, unequivocally, 100% wrong. No matter how right you want it to be, it’s wrong. We don’t even need to get Matlock on the case. It’d be a 6 minute episode.there's plenty of evidence to suggest that he was either present for the assault or affiliated in some way with those who committed it, both of which are crimes.
We are going in circles here. This argument was made before and I'll say again, this was not simply a fight between strangers. This was 2 women ganging up to beat a defenseless teenager, which is the problem and takes it to a level above "crass". Nobody is saying Verdugo himself committed a felony, or even that he needs to be formally punished based on what we know. Many of us are just saying this shows a lack of character and not the kind of guy we want on the team.Watching and videotaping a couple of young women (who were apparently strangers to Verdugo) fight seems like a big nothingburger. Posting it was crass and showed lack of judgment, but that's hardly the major felony it's being made out to be.
I hate these dilemmas but I guess that is just sports in 2020. Just have to find a way to deal with cognitive dissonance in the bottom of the ninth when he is facing Chapman. Or hope more information comes out that resolves the situation one way or the other I guess. Maybe if and when the deal is announced he will make a statement of some sort that at least adds some clarity.I agree with DDB.
I don't want this kid in the uniform; just like I don't want Ozuna or Chapman in the uniform. There is enough moral culpability here, and no ownership of it, to turn me right off. And for me it is DOUBLY egregious that Nick Francona was the only one who attempted to do the right thing and ended up blackballed by the Dodgers, and eventually, MLB.
Entitled young athletes who have their actions covered up and "handled" end uyp as entitled grown men who expect this is the normal course of behaviour.And teh cover ups are as much, or more, about protecting the "product' that is the player, as they are about legal culpability, so let's not whistle past that graveyard.
Those are the legal definitions of harassment, not necessarily online harassment, in particular of a minor. This is a relatively new (sub?)-field of law, and case law obviously can become precedent. Of course, IANAL.Well, I'm not barred in AZ, and caselaw can strongly affect written statutes. However, clicking on the link you provided gets us to: https://www.azleg.gov/ars/13/02921.htm
I don't see anything in there that matches our fact pattern. Again, caselaw may be contrary, and there may be other laws in AZ that apply. But they'd probably be in the minority of states if they did have something that applied.
Unless he provided the alcohol or egged on the fight, this is exactly where I am. And it seems like the older girls were entirely the instigators of the fight, and given the discription of the relative ages is the group, also likely provided the alcohol. There were three bad guys that night. Baldwin if he did what he was accused of and the two older girls.I've steered clear of this thread until now with the trade being done, but it seems to be a LOT of overreaction based on very limited information. The OP posted a blog that didn't name Verdugo as playing any specific role in the fight or the sexual assault, and there has been nothing specifically stating that he was involved or even present for either. It seems that he is a cocky, douchey kid which seems to be creating some of the reaction, but I'm not sure why there is such a rush to judgement on almost no specific or verified information. While he certainly seems to have used very poor judgement to have been partying with the people he was partying with, calls for his release etc. seem to be fairly ridiculous.
Francona said Verdugo recorded and posted the fight. Why are you lecturing others on not jumping to conclusions then making definitive pronouncements like you know anything?Unless he provided the alcohol or egged on the fight, this is exactly where I am. And it seems like the older girls were entirely the instigators of the fight, and given the discription of the relative ages is the group, also likely provided the alcohol. There were three bad guys that night. Baldwin if he did what he was accused of and the two older girls.
Francona said it was his understanding that Verdugo was the one who taped the beating and posted it to Snapchat.there has been nothing specifically stating that he was involved or even present for either.
Yeah, and if he did that’s not how a hero like you would react I guess. If he’d gone in and physically wrestled the girls off the younger one, they probably would have accused him of assaulting them and then all the the noise in this thread would be about how he hit two poor defenseless women.Francona said Verdugo recorded and posted the fight. Why are you lecturing others on not jumping to conclusions then making definitive pronouncements like you know anything?