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AFCCG: Pats at Chiefs Buildup

Discussion in 'Blinded by the Lombardis: Patriots Forum' started by RedOctober3829, Jan 13, 2019.

  1. Ralphwiggum

    Ralphwiggum Member SoSH Member

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    It would have been 3rd and 7 without that call. Yes bad call but there were other bad calls both ways and it was hardly game changing. Enough already.
     
  2. ilol@u

    ilol@u Member SoSH Member

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    I don't understand the rule rrhatding the delay of game on the punt attempt after the offense subbed out. KC had 12 men on the field as well.
     
  3. CFB_Rules

    CFB_Rules Member SoSH Member

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    When the offense substitutes, the officials hold up the snap until the defense has had a chance to match up. So long as defensive players are running on/off, the snap will be held up. Usually the snap will be held up for in a like-for-like manner, so if the offense makes one late sub the defense will be given 3 seconds or so to run one guy on/off.

    With the punt play, the Patriots ran the entire team off the field. So KC is allotted the time required to run the entire 11 off and get 11 fresh guys on. If the play clock expires while the snap is being held, too bad, the offense should have started their substitutions earlier.

    12 men on defense is not a foul so long as the 12th player is attempting to get off (at least not until the snap). It is a dead ball foul if there are 12+ in formation for several seconds with nobody attempting to get off the field.
     
  4. Saints Rest

    Saints Rest Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    It did make me wonder if Reid had planned for this, and told his team to make an APPARENT effort to change, but not to rush. Flip the tables on that Pat strategy.
     
  5. bakahump

    bakahump Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Is this really the rule? That if the clock expires....sucks to be you? Thats shocking to me. I can see maybe stopping the clock at 5 seconds or something and restarting it as soon as the Defense is set. Especially considering the pats where at the line and ready. But as Saints Rest pointed out the Pats (or any well trained team) potentially gets screwed by a team who (could be/) is confused and unprepared (or cunningly prepared...).
     
  6. Bowhemian

    Bowhemian Member SoSH Member

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    In that case though, the Pats were on the KC side of the field. So theoretically, a 5 yard penalty in that situation is no big deal. It actually helps the punter.
     
  7. CFB_Rules

    CFB_Rules Member SoSH Member

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    As far as I can tell, there's not really any other fair way to write it. If you stop the play clock, the offense could just send in a late sub in order to get more time when they are about to take a delay of game. If you don't stop the offense from snapping after a late sub, then the defense has no ability to match substitutions. The offense could rotate in fresh players to quick snap while the defense gets no similar opportunity to rest.

    The current rule makes substitutions equitable, but with the caveat that if you sub late you are at risk for taking a delay. You have 40 seconds, there is no conceivable, non-deceptive reason why you couldn't figure out who to sub for in the first 20-25 seconds.
     
  8. CFB_Rules

    CFB_Rules Member SoSH Member

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    Happens all the time. Defensive coaches will tell their players to slow up if the offense subs late. When the rule first came out college teams would try to get away with 15-20 second defensive substitutions.

    The problem with the strategy is the officials can just decide you've taken too much time and step off the ball, in which case a 12-man penalty is probably your best outcome.
     
  9. bakahump

    bakahump Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Good Catch but you could then just say if they do that its an illegal sub penalty.
     
  10. PedroKsBambino

    PedroKsBambino Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    That's only sort of true, though. The defense has the ability to slow down guys getting off (which in fact was clearly the case in the Pats-Chiefs game) and cause a penalty not because the offense waited too long, but because the defense did not hustle off. In other words, "equitable" does not mean "as long as it takes the defense"

    I think the more reasonable interpretation of the play is that the ref blew the play by waiting a couple seconds too long---he was waiting for a KC guy to walk slowly off field. That is beyond 'reasonable opportunity to substitute' isn't it? And if not, the exception swallows the rule----any time offense substitutes a defense can just move as slowly as they want and cause the penalty. You note that the defense has the risk that the ref could just let the offense snap it---which I agree with. But isn't the implication that the ref actually has an obligation to step away after a reasonable time to substitute has occurred, too?

    It's an understandable mistake from the ref on that play, and the pats certainly have to bear some risk of that occurring with the strategy of quickly shifting the unit off. But as it played out still an error seems to me (and consistent with the principles you laid out)
     
  11. CFB_Rules

    CFB_Rules Member SoSH Member

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    So I went and looked at the play. The first Patriot sub steps onto the field with 14 seconds left on the play clock. The officials recognize the substitution and start holding up the snap with 11 seconds remaining. The Umpire steps away from the ball with 2 seconds left. Giving the defense 12 seconds to sub the entire unit off the field and get the return team in the correct position doesn't feel unreasonable.
     
  12. BaseballJones

    BaseballJones goalpost mover SoSH Member

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    @CFB_Rules - What would be the ruling on this....

    Fourth down. Pats offense on the field. 14 seconds on the play clock. Their whole unit then begins to sprint off the field. In response, the defense begins to sprint off the field too. But....none of the Patriots' players *actually* leave the field. And as the defense has a mish-mash of personnel on the field, the Pats' offense sprints back to the line of scrimmage.

    Would the official hold up the snap until the defense could get their correct personnel on the field if NONE of the Pats' players actually left the field of play? Let's assume the D cannot call time out (say they have none left or whatever).
     
  13. DourDoerr

    DourDoerr Well-Known Member Lifetime Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    Shhhh
     
  14. PedroKsBambino

    PedroKsBambino Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Thanks, and that is fair---though I think it points up the problem with "reasonable" as the standard, really. As you watch the replay do you think the referee is waiting for D to get on field and get set, or for the extra guy to get off? The former would be reasonable (though to my eyes, he waited after that to step away, and that's the error here); I'd say the latter would not be reasonable in my mind
     
  15. CFB_Rules

    CFB_Rules Member SoSH Member

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    The general guideline is the defense is allowed time for a substitute to physically run to the player being replaced, notify him of the replacement, and have the replaced player run off the field. Personnel grouping may change based on how the offense is substituting, so different players may need to stay on or off. The last chiefs player hustles off almost as soon as his replacement gets there, I really don't see any undue delay at all by the defense. Fact is running a substitute on with 14 seconds is like running a play inbounds with 14 seconds left. You might get to snap, but there's no guarantee and much of it is out of your control.

    I'm guessing (not 100% sure here) the play described above would be deemed a simulated substitution or using the substitution process to deceive, which is unsportsmanlike conduct. But otherwise no, the substitution process is starting by the sideline official when somebody runs ON to the field.
     
  16. lexrageorge

    lexrageorge Member SoSH Member

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    It’s not a substitution. So I vote NO.
     
  17. Jettisoned

    Jettisoned Member SoSH Member

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    I don't know the answer but this is exactly what he Colts did on that hilarious "trick play" that blew up in their faces.

     
  18. DoyleCanBoyd

    DoyleCanBoyd lurker

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    Delete this if somebody has already pointed this out, I haven't read the entire thread, but this just came across my desk...
    This will be Tom Brady's 6th career start against the Rams. All 6 have/will happen in different stadiums. Can you name them?
     
  19. americantrotter

    americantrotter Member SoSH Member

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    St. Louis. Whatever dome. Wembley Gillette superdome. Atlanta Benz dome. Foxborough
     
  20. DoyleCanBoyd

    DoyleCanBoyd lurker

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    Yessir.... Also, I totally posted this in the wrong tread... Oops.
     
  21. Bowhemian

    Bowhemian Member SoSH Member

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    It would appear that way, yes. However, that is not what they were trying to do. Many teams, from youth through high school and college run this play called the swinging gate. It is designed mostly to catch the defense completely unprepared. A lot of times they don’t even run a play after they get into the formation. However, there are actually a bunch of plays that can be run out of this formation, so the defense has to be prepared for anything. When I was coaching HS ball, there was a team in our conference that ran this pretty much every game. We just had to be ready.
     
  22. Hendu for Kutch

    Hendu for Kutch Member SoSH Member

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    The Colts punter told the whole story on his Barstool podcast (it's also on YouTube). The only goal of that play was to get too many men on the field. They were never supposed to snap unless the Pats were caught. But the snapper got hurt and his replacement went by what was in the playbook which explained differently.

    It was a perfect storm of events, but there was no play there.
     
  23. kelpapa

    kelpapa Member SoSH Member

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    That clip of McAfee explaining it is hysterical. In addition to what you said, Pagano told the kid who was going to receive the snap to give a hard count. He told him this as he was running onto the field. And, he's the only one he told this to.
     
  24. Harry Hooper

    Harry Hooper Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    That was incredible, thanks. Great to start the morning with a huge laugh.
     
  25. BigJimEd

    BigJimEd Member SoSH Member

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    Such a horrible coaching job.
    Adding a wrinkle as they run on the field? Sure what could go wrong.
    Backup in who didn't rep it? Ehhhh, he'll figure it out.
    Even if regular player is at center, does he know the QB doesn't see someone running off? Does he know he's just trying to draw them off?

    But even assuming they didn't have a sub in and Pagano kept his mouth shut, they were still lined up two yards off ther ball. McAfee said they repped it 7-10 times but that obviously wasn't enough or they didn't pay attention to detail.
    I wouldn't be surprised if when they practiced it, they did it only from the yard line. Then in the game they ran over and lined up in the yard line even though the LOS was 2 yards ahead.
    Who would possibly think guys used to lining up next to the ball might have some issues linking up in space?

    Complete mess. If I remember correctly, some were yelling "don't hike" as well which would only add to confusion.
     
  26. lexrageorge

    lexrageorge Member SoSH Member

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    A team runs these type of plays (the Pats mass substitution, or the fake substitution in the "swinging gate") knowing a delay of game penalty is a distinct and not necessarily unhelpful possibility. In both the case of the Pats play and the infamous Colts fiasco, the delay of game gives the punter an additional 5 yards to work with to pin the receiving team deep. Of course, the Colts never got to the delay of game penalty part of the play.

    The funny thing about the Colts play was that the Pats punt coverage unit was prepared for it. One of the players mentioned how they practice situations like that so everyone knows what to do if it happens. Bolden played it perfectly, IIRC. Meanwhile the team running the play had no idea what was going on.
     
  27. j44thor

    j44thor Member SoSH Member

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    I was always wondering why the up man wasn't counting how many defenders were on the field and if he counted 12 (as the announcers claimed there were) to just snap the ball the second the umpire allowed it and get the free 1st down. 2 seconds is plenty of time to get a snap off assuming your only goal is a too many men penalty.
     
  28. GeorgeCostanza

    GeorgeCostanza Member SoSH Member

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    Mcafee is a fantastic story teller. Thanks for sharing that.
     
  29. Valek123

    Valek123 Member SoSH Member

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    Amazing story telling, had never heard this full recap of the story. Funny stuff.
     
  30. E5 Yaz

    E5 Yaz Transcends message boarding Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    I love the cut-ins they stuck in there ... the Brady smile and the Pagano shrug were perfectly placed
     
  31. kelpapa

    kelpapa Member SoSH Member

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    This is off topic, but if you all liked that one, you'll love this one:


    I tried listening to his podcast before, and I never really enjoyed it. These few clips that I have found on YouTube (maybe through Sosh) are great.
     
  32. lexrageorge

    lexrageorge Member SoSH Member

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    There is a risk of a bad snap, and there is no guarantee that the officials notice the extra defender, or decide to call it even if they do see it.

    It's one of those plays were if Plan A doesn't work, Plan B is to simply punt or delay of game.
     
  33. j44thor

    j44thor Member SoSH Member

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    You can challenge too many men though so if they were certain, (perhaps they weren't, never saw a clear replay), then they should have snapped it.
     
  34. NortheasternPJ

    NortheasternPJ Member SoSH Member

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    You can challenge 12 men on the field though.
     
  35. tims4wins

    tims4wins PN23's replacement SoSH Member

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    Gained some respect for Kelce today. He was on Felger and Mazz, and while he said he would like to see the OT rule changed (duh), he admitted that if KC got the ball first and won, the whole world wouldn't be saying "it's a damn shame Brady never got the ball".
     
  36. BernieRicoBoomer

    BernieRicoBoomer Member SoSH Member

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    Caught the idiot with the laser pointer and he has been banned from Arrowhead Stadium.
     
  37. InstaFace

    InstaFace MDLzera

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    I'm actually glad the NFL is trying to get the local DA to throw the book at the guy. People get multiple years in prison for shining laser pointers at airplane and helicopter cockpits, and not infrequently give pilots permanent eye damage. Set a precedent now, or the over/under for number of laser pointer attacks on Brady next year is probably 3.5.

    Impressive that they were able to identify the perpetrator. I guess either they must have video of the stands that goes way beyond what I would have supposed, or there were nearby fans who saw it and said something, because they're decent people.
     
  38. DrewDawg

    DrewDawg Dorito Dink SoSH Member

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    Not according to this: https://www.cnn.com/2016/04/19/health/laser-pointer-airplane-pilot-vision-study/index.html

    However they do say that green lasers are more dangerous than red, so fuck that guy.
     
  39. lexrageorge

    lexrageorge Member SoSH Member

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    While green lasers are unlikely to permanently damage a pilot's eyesight due to the distances involved, they can still disrupt a pilot's vision at a critical time during landing. And they are still not something to screw around with inside a football stadium.
     
  40. Van Everyman

    Van Everyman Member SoSH Member

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    And now he is in legal trouble – a 64 year old dude:

    Relatedly, I searched the name “dwyan morgan” on FB as sometimes you can get a flavor for what that person is like. Not sure if it’s him but there are multiple FB accounts of what look to be the same dude who lives in that part of the country. Which is weird.
     
  41. steveluck7

    steveluck7 Member SoSH Member

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    My mom is 64 years old and has at least 3 facebook accounts. why? Because she could never remember her password and didn't want to jump through the hoops to get it re-set so she just created a new one
     
  42. Reggie's Racquet

    Reggie's Racquet Member SoSH Member

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    In that part of the country...rural Missouri, they are most likely all related.
     
  43. InstaFace

    InstaFace MDLzera

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    So a $1,000 fine (almost certainly rather than jail time).

    Let's hope the fact that he's getting punished is more widely publicized than the degree of the punishment.
     

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