Aaron Hernandez Trial (Odin Lloyd)

Status
Not open for further replies.

Kevin Youkulele

wishes Claude Makelele was a Red Sox
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Jul 12, 2006
8,935
San Diego
djhb20 said:
So one of the jurors said that the murder 1 was due to cruelty/indifference instead of premeditation and one of the reasons was that "he could've made different choices."

No, not for nothing, but doesn't premeditation just mean exactly that you made the choice to kill the guy? At least, in the grand jury I did in DC, that was beaten into our head over and again. Premeditation does not require planning all ahead - just making the choice to do it. That is, the "pre" can be a blink of an eye.

Am I wrong?

(Another juror also explicitly said that they held it against Hernandez that he didn't testify to give an alternate explanation.)
You're not wrong.  Most likely explanation is that juror did not understand the instructions, resisted attempts to explain it, but was willing to vote yes on cruelty and the rest of the jury reached the point of "fuck it, he's guilty, screw premeditation, it doesn't matter."
 

jcd0805

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 3, 2007
4,027
Florida
djhb20 said:
(Another juror also explicitly said that they held it against Hernandez that he didn't testify to give an alternate explanation.)
On Anderson Cooper a juror said Hernandez could've probably helped his case by testifying, that's not the same as holding it against him that he didn't.
 

Joshv02

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
1,633
Brookline
I don't think the juror said she held it against Hernandez that he didn't testify, only that hearing him may have been helpful. (No different than done if the explanations in this thread.) They all said expressly that they didn't expect to hear from him and were told that early on. Perhaps I misheard?
 

soxfan121

JAG
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
23,043
singaporesoxfan said:
Hernandez to 911 operator: Oh my god I accidentally shot my friend 4 times! He may be dead!

911 operator: Calm down sir. I can help. First, let's make sure he's dead.

(Silence, then two gunshots.)

Hernandez: Okay, now what?
 
OMG. You just won the thread with a Triple Lindy. 
 

Shelterdog

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Feb 19, 2002
15,375
New York City
Kevin Youkulele said:
You're not wrong.  Most likely explanation is that juror did not understand the instructions, resisted attempts to explain it, but was willing to vote yes on cruelty and the rest of the jury reached the point of "fuck it, he's guilty, screw premeditation, it doesn't matter."
 
A weird thing about the Mass. laws is that it requires "deliberate premeditation", not just premeditation.  You could see a jury getting bogged down in whether the state proved beyond a reasonable doubt that there was "deliberate" premeditation because how long/thoroughly do you have to think about the crime in order to have deliberate premeditation? Maybe the jury thought the killing might have been intentional but impulsive and is that deliberate?
 

Kevin Youkulele

wishes Claude Makelele was a Red Sox
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Jul 12, 2006
8,935
San Diego
Shelterdog said:
 
A weird thing about the Mass. laws is that it requires "deliberate premeditation", not just premeditation.  You could see a jury getting bogged down in whether the state proved beyond a reasonable doubt that there was "deliberate" premeditation because how long/thoroughly do you have to think about the crime in order to have deliberate premeditation? Maybe the jury thought the killing might have been intentional but impulsive and is that deliberate?
Not sure about Mass. specifically, but at least some states have case law saying it's deliberate if it's not heat-of-passion, i.e., the decision to kill was made calmly or without reasonable provocation (such as being attacked or finding the soon-to-be-victim in flagrante delicto with one's spouse).
 

canvass ali

New Member
Jul 17, 2005
88
Attleboro MA
Shelterdog said:
 
A weird thing about the Mass. laws is that it requires "deliberate premeditation", not just premeditation.  You could see a jury getting bogged down in whether the state proved beyond a reasonable doubt that there was "deliberate" premeditation because how long/thoroughly do you have to think about the crime in order to have deliberate premeditation? Maybe the jury thought the killing might have been intentional but impulsive and is that deliberate?
 
I was curious as to whether deliberate premeditation had any kind of time frame to define it but it appears fairly subjective.  Found this definition from the link below:
 
"The term "deliberate premeditation" describes the mental process of the perpetrator in formulating the purpose to kill. In its most basic sense, it means that the perpetrator acted after taking time to reflect on his course of conduct. Massachusetts law does not require that the period of reflection be lengthy, so long as it affords the perpetrator an opportunity to consider his course of conduct."
 
http://www.massmurderdefense.com/pages/murder-1st.html
 

Shelterdog

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Feb 19, 2002
15,375
New York City
Kevin Youkulele said:
Not sure about Mass. specifically, but at least some states have case law saying it's deliberate if it's not heat-of-passion, i.e., the decision to kill was made calmly or without reasonable provocation (such as being attacked or finding the soon-to-be-victim in flagrante delicto with one's spouse).
 
Sure, but depending on the jury instructions, etc. you could imagine a jury really getting hung up on that particular point.
 

Kevin Youkulele

wishes Claude Makelele was a Red Sox
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Jul 12, 2006
8,935
San Diego
canvass ali said:
 
I was curious as to whether deliberate premeditation had any kind of time frame to define it but it appears fairly subjective.  Found this definition from the link below:
 
"The term "deliberate premeditation" describes the mental process of the perpetrator in formulating the purpose to kill. In its most basic sense, it means that the perpetrator acted after taking time to reflect on his course of conduct. Massachusetts law does not require that the period of reflection be lengthy, so long as it affords the perpetrator an opportunity to consider his course of conduct."
 
http://www.massmurderdefense.com/pages/murder-1st.html
I think the jury could have reasonably inferred time to consider the course of action, e.g., while they were driving with OL in the car to the industrial site.  Obviously, not all of them did.
 
Shelterdog said:
 
Sure, but depending on the jury instructions, etc. you could imagine a jury really getting hung up on that particular point.
Yes, the case law is a lot less strict than the meaning of the terms to most laypeople.  I certainly was surprised by the precedent about deliberate premeditation that was covered in law school.  The case was about a robbery suspect who was chased into an apartment by a policeman, then wrestled the cop's gun away, pointed it at him, waited long enough for the cop to say something brief pleading for his life, and then shot him.  The jury convicted on M1 and the appeals court said that the time between pointing the gun and firing (when the cop said something like "Please don't") was legally sufficient evidence of deliberate premeditation.  I believe the jurisdiction was DC.  
 

canvass ali

New Member
Jul 17, 2005
88
Attleboro MA
Kevin Youkulele said:
I think the jury could have reasonably inferred time to consider the course of action, e.g., while they were driving with OL in the car to the industrial site.  Obviously, not all of them did.
 
Yes, the case law is a lot less strict than the meaning of the terms to most laypeople.  I certainly was surprised by the precedent about deliberate premeditation that was covered in law school.  The case was about a robbery suspect who was chased into an apartment by a policeman, then wrestled the cop's gun away, pointed it at him, waited long enough for the cop to say something brief pleading for his life, and then shot him.  The jury convicted on M1 and the appeals court said that the time between pointing the gun and firing (when the cop said something like "Please don't") was legally sufficient evidence of deliberate premeditation.  I believe the jurisdiction was DC.  
 
The precedent you cite here sets the kind of bracket I was wondering about.  It would address the briefest version for time of reflection that falls under "so long as it affords the perpetrator an opportunity to consider his course of conduct."  The other end of it, whether it's a hastily drawn plan or weeks in planning, seems easier to determine (although people obviously have different tolerances for that part too, as in the AH juror).   Driving to a secluded area at 3:00 am with four guys and coming back with three would be enough for me.
 

Rovin Romine

Johnny Rico
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
24,593
Miami (oh, Miami!)
canvass ali said:
 
The precedent you cite here sets the kind of bracket I was wondering about.  It would address the briefest version for time of reflection that falls under "so long as it affords the perpetrator an opportunity to consider his course of conduct."  The other end of it, whether it's a hastily drawn plan or weeks in planning, seems easier to determine (although people obviously have different tolerances for that part too, as in the AH juror).   Driving to a secluded area at 3:00 am with four guys and coming back with three would be enough for me.
 
For me, personally, premeditation is much more like the amount of time it takes to raise and point a gun and think "you're going to die now" as you squeeze the trigger.  In fact, if it's a deliberate shooting, I'd probably always find premeditation. 
 
My view of premeditation sort of runs afoul of classic theory on manslaughter, say, a defendant who caught his wife in flagrante delicto (colloquial sense), and hit her naked lover over his head with whatever was handy, resulting in death.  It's premeditated.  So I personally view some varieties of manslaughter as "quasi-justified" killings, rather than killings that truly lack premeditation.  (Although we don't come right out and say "well, someone in that situation sort of deserves to die, so we won't punish the killer that harshly" we instead say "the emotion was so overwhelming it diminished the premeditation/culpability."  But we only say that for a limited class of "pre-approved" emotional situations, and the "overwhelming emotion" defense isn't applicable to, say, a mentally ill person.)
 

Shelterdog

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Feb 19, 2002
15,375
New York City
FelixMantilla said:
 
Wow. Just wow. 
 
But that's the thing about the jury system.  Reasonable doubt ultimately means what that group of 12 people thinks reasonable doubt means.  Now you've got to be a barking lunatic to think that there's a reasonable probability that Hernandez Old Yeller'ed a guy, but hey, whackjobs get to serve on juries too and sometimes their opinion carries the day.
 

canvass ali

New Member
Jul 17, 2005
88
Attleboro MA
Rovin Romine said:
 
For me, personally, premeditation is much more like the amount of time it takes to raise and point a gun and think "you're going to die now" as you squeeze the trigger.  In fact, if it's a deliberate shooting, I'd probably always find premeditation. 
 
My view of premeditation sort of runs afoul of classic theory on manslaughter, say, a defendant who caught his wife in flagrante delicto (colloquial sense), and hit her naked lover over his head with whatever was handy, resulting in death.  It's premeditated.  So I personally view some varieties of manslaughter as "quasi-justified" killings, rather than killings that truly lack premeditation.  (Although we don't come right out and say "well, someone in that situation sort of deserves to die, so we won't punish the killer that harshly" we instead say "the emotion was so overwhelming it diminished the premeditation/culpability."  But we only say that for a limited class of "pre-approved" emotional situations, and the "overwhelming emotion" defense isn't applicable to, say, a mentally ill person.)
 
When you put it like that, it makes me think "deliberate premeditation" is almost redundant.  If you were able to deliberate, you were making a decision. 
 
The points you hit on here are the very elements I've been wrestling with, in terms of the "pre-approved" situations that resonate with everyone--the whole "I'd have done the same thing in his/her place" thing.  It's so hard to codify human behavior in a consistent way (which probably gives rise to letter vs spirit of the law).
 
Somebody should grab "flagrante delicto" as a handle. One rough literal translation I found was "burning crime", as in "still in progress".  It's Latin so the translation tends to be pretty elastic.  The sexual implication seems to have evolved over the ages.  Or else he caught her next to the fireplace.
 

FelixMantilla

reincarnated mr hate
SoSH Member
Jan 30, 2001
12,917
Foxboro, MA
http://tikiandtierney.radio.cbssports.com/2015/04/16/chris-simms-hernandez-was-polarizing-in-locker-room/
 
 
Simms, now an NFL analyst for Bleacher Report, did a lot of grunt work that year, especially for his boss, former tight ends coach George Godsey, now the Texans’ offensive coordinator. Simms spent a lot of time in the tight ends room with Godsey and, yes, Aaron Hernandez.
 
“I’ll say this,” Simms said. “Yesterday was somewhat of a life lesson for me because Aaron Hernandez was a player that was very polarizing in the locker room. I think he was maybe the most well-liked guy on that New England Patriots football team. Extremely charismatic, the coaches loved him, the players loved him – he really was one of my favorites. He was super-talented – one of the most talented players I was ever around, really – and he was an ultra-hard worker.”
 
He’ll never play football again.
 
 
M

MentalDisabldLst

Guest
Sociopaths are known to frequently be charming and persuasive, but it's because they're imitating human emotion (based on observing it and its effects), not experiencing it themselves.  I guess some players saw through the mask and others didn't.
 

BroodsSexton

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 4, 2006
12,656
guam
Rovin Romine said:
 
For me, personally, premeditation is much more like the amount of time it takes to raise and point a gun and think "you're going to die now" as you squeeze the trigger.  In fact, if it's a deliberate shooting, I'd probably always find premeditation. 
 
My view of premeditation sort of runs afoul of classic theory on manslaughter, say, a defendant who caught his wife in flagrante delicto (colloquial sense), and hit her naked lover over his head with whatever was handy, resulting in death.  It's premeditated.  So I personally view some varieties of manslaughter as "quasi-justified" killings, rather than killings that truly lack premeditation.  (Although we don't come right out and say "well, someone in that situation sort of deserves to die, so we won't punish the killer that harshly" we instead say "the emotion was so overwhelming it diminished the premeditation/culpability."  But we only say that for a limited class of "pre-approved" emotional situations, and the "overwhelming emotion" defense isn't applicable to, say, a mentally ill person.)
 
How do you differentiate between "intent" and "pre-meditation"?  Because your definition sounds an awful lot like intent, rather than that incremental requirement for premeditation. 
 

Rovin Romine

Johnny Rico
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
24,593
Miami (oh, Miami!)
BroodsSexton said:
 
How do you differentiate between "intent" and "pre-meditation"?  Because your definition sounds an awful lot like intent, rather than that incremental requirement for premeditation. 
 
My point is that I don't really differentiate.  I have a hard time conceptualizing a "non-premeditated yet intentional shooting" - more specifically, a non-premeditated intentional shooting of a specific individual in a non-self-defense scenario, i.e., a "deliberate shooting."  I just don't see how you get out of the premeditation box.  
 
I'm not talking something far fetched, like the intent to shoot off the guy's little finger which your goon is holding down on the table in front of you, but your gun twists at the last moment.  (Then you've got an "accidental" killing but felony murder, most likely.)  I'm talking about the common, "I took out my gun and shot Joe" situations.  How is there not premeditation evidenced by everything up to the point where you squeeze the trigger?  You've got to get the gun out and up, you've got to focus on the target or situation, you have to actually squeeze the trigger to send the bullet into your target.  Which is a human being.  And the tool that you're using is designed and used for killing human beings (or other animals).  The one you deliberately discharged.  After deliberately taking out and lining it up.  
  
(This is just a personal working model of how I informally think about the borders of these concepts - it's not the legal standard, advice I'd give to a jury/client on how to think about these things.  I can and do parse the legal distinctions between premeditation, intent, transferred intent, gross indifference, etc.  I could also formulate a hypothetical sliding scale of "knowledge of intent to kill as opposed to harm."  But if the definition for M1 is "premeditated," I think I'd almost always find it in real life deliberate shooting scenarios.)
 

mauidano

Mai Tais for everyone!
SoSH Member
Aug 21, 2006
35,998
Maui
And in his next go around in court, Hernandez will deal with premeditation murder again.  Lying in wait for the victims to leave the club, tailing them with his vehicle that he was driving, rolling down the window, saying something to them, pointing and firing his weapon multiple times. THAT'S premeditation as well.  Fuck this guy.  Let him be polarizing in prison for the rest of his life.
 

DJnVa

Dorito Dawg
SoSH Member
Dec 16, 2010
54,150
moly99 said:
 
 As a juror there would at least be reasonable doubt for me that the fifth and sixth bullets were mercy shots.
 
 
Yes, AH, the merciful multiple murderer.
 
 

BroodsSexton

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 4, 2006
12,656
guam
Rovin Romine said:
 
My point is that I don't really differentiate.  I have a hard time conceptualizing a "non-premeditated yet intentional shooting" - more specifically, a non-premeditated intentional shooting of a specific individual in a non-self-defense scenario, i.e., a "deliberate shooting."  I just don't see how you get out of the premeditation box.  
 
I'm not talking something far fetched, like the intent to shoot off the guy's little finger which your goon is holding down on the table in front of you, but your gun twists at the last moment.  (Then you've got an "accidental" killing but felony murder, most likely.)  I'm talking about the common, "I took out my gun and shot Joe" situations.  How is there not premeditation evidenced by everything up to the point where you squeeze the trigger?  You've got to get the gun out and up, you've got to focus on the target or situation, you have to actually squeeze the trigger to send the bullet into your target.  Which is a human being.  And the tool that you're using is designed and used for killing human beings (or other animals).  The one you deliberately discharged.  After deliberately taking out and lining it up.  
  
(This is just a personal working model of how I informally think about the borders of these concepts - it's not the legal standard, advice I'd give to a jury/client on how to think about these things.  I can and do parse the legal distinctions between premeditation, intent, transferred intent, gross indifference, etc.  I could also formulate a hypothetical sliding scale of "knowledge of intent to kill as opposed to harm."  But if the definition for M1 is "premeditated," I think I'd almost always find it in real life deliberate shooting scenarios.)
 
I think I agree with you, it's just an interesting wrinkle in the law. The word "meditation" suggests that there is some cognitive reflection by the defendant as to the consequences of the act (e.g., shooting the gun, stabbing, etc.).  But, of course, you run into epistemological problems in proving what in fact went through the defendant's mind prior to the final act, and so you're left with a necessarily circumstantial case on this element, which is proved (as you point out) by the act itself.  For most of us, it's pretty hard to imagine using a gun in a manner that would kill a person without at least having some consciousness of the consequences.  But ironically, it is the most dangerous of sociopaths who could perhaps do that without having some "pre-meditation" of the killing.  My guess is that we basically skim over that problem in most cases, because that's the guy who we want most to find guilty.  Am I way off?  Could be--thinking aloud.
 

Rovin Romine

Johnny Rico
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
24,593
Miami (oh, Miami!)
BroodsSexton said:
 
I think I agree with you, it's just an interesting wrinkle in the law. The word "meditation" suggests that there is some cognitive reflection by the defendant as to the consequences of the act (e.g., shooting the gun, stabbing, etc.).  But, of course, you run into epistemological problems in proving what in fact went through the defendant's mind prior to the final act, and so you're left with a necessarily circumstantial case on this element, which is proved (as you point out) by the act itself.  For most of us, it's pretty hard to imagine using a gun in a manner that would kill a person without at least having some consciousness of the consequences.  But ironically, it is the most dangerous of sociopaths who could perhaps do that without having some "pre-meditation" of the killing.  My guess is that we basically skim over that problem in most cases, because that's the guy who we want most to find guilty.  Am I way off?  Could be--thinking aloud.
 
I'd agree with this.  There are a lot of wrinkles in how we think about murder - in no small part because most of the "elements" of the crimes we deal with can be traced back to "19th Century" formulations of how the mind works.  I think our current system is functional enough, but not really exact.  
 
The psychopath problem is one wrinkle.  The mentally-ill/paranoid is another: such a person could feel overwhelming fear or nihilism or compulsion as they shoot a police officer in cold blood.  They might not even fully think of the police officer as "a real person." Yet the legal standard is whether or not they knew the action was wrong when they did it.  If they did (also inferred) then it seems no one really worries much about trying to establish "premeditation" in that context.  The "trained to shoot/kill" person is another wrinkle.  If you have someone who is trained to draw and shoot, do they really have "premeditation" or is it "instinctual"?  (And this last one comes up more often than you might think with cops and vets.)  Heavy drug use is another wrinkle.   Or take the Jared Remy case - roided out, paranoid, controlling, mental problems, etc.  Did he just "snap" or was it "premeditated?"  
 
And we also have manslaughter for "adequate provocation" - which should make us ask, adequate provocation for whom?  (Or "what kind" of overwhelming passion?)  Right now most places define it as "provocation which would cause a reasonable person to lose self control."  So it kind of sucks if the defendant is burdened or has a slightly lower threshold that the jury imagines they should.  (There's also the issue of what a jury of one's peers really means - must everyone on the jury have run up against that "losing control to the point where killing would be justified" threshold at some point in their lives?)  What about enduring 20 years of police harassment - is that "adequate provocation" if you shoot a cop over a "straw that broke the camel's back" incident?
 
I realize I've broadened the topic a bit, but, if as a society, we're allowing a "step-down" from M1 to M2 through the issue of "what is adequate premeditation?" the question practically becomes, "In exactly what types of situations do you allow that step-down as a matter of law?
 
I'm not against safety valves in the law, nor would I be against a more nuanced law which takes objective and subjective mental states into account in a more comprehensive way.  I'm just pointing out that "premeditation" is tricky, and the "adequate provocation" step-down for manslaughter is very subjective and can be quirky. 
 
***
Aside from the legal formulations, there's also the question of how killing crimes are charged and prosecuted.  Often, in gray cases, the state might offer an M2 plea instead of pushing forward on M1.  I tried an M2 where the defendant said, on his completely admissible recorded confession, that he deliberately got a gun to shoot the victim, and when he saw the victim (just before the shooting) he said "I said to myself, 'It's going to be his last day.'"  If that's arguably not M1, I'm not sure what is.  But the state only went forward on M2.  It was a chronic bullying case where the bully was shot and killed, so perhaps the state felt that the jury would be sympathetic, or felt that the circumstance (a quasi-allowable killing) should get a lesser penalty.  That puts us in my informal "we can't say that some people brought it on themselves" category that I touched briefly on above.  But it was a matter of prosecutorial discretion, not established law allowing a mitigation. 
 
PS - there are also intellectual wrinkles in cruelty, malice, etc. but those are for another day/post.  Some of that was fleshed out in this thread.  By people who were just genuinely curious about what was what and who, even by just casually musing on it, could see some of those issues.  Which I think is remarkable.
 

djhb20

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Feb 7, 2004
1,887
10025
So, back to my parenthetical about AH not testifying-

The juror on Anderson cooper said that AH could've helped himself by testifying and explaining things. To me, that sounds like holding it against him that he didn't testify. To others it may not. What say the law/lawyers?

Surely a prosecutor couldn't say something like - AH could've explained to you what happened, but he didn't.
 

Super Nomario

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 5, 2000
14,024
Mansfield MA
djhb20 said:
So, back to my parenthetical about AH not testifying-

The juror on Anderson cooper said that AH could've helped himself by testifying and explaining things. To me, that sounds like holding it against him that he didn't testify. To others it may not. What say the law/lawyers?

Surely a prosecutor couldn't say something like - AH could've explained to you what happened, but he didn't.
RR and I had this exchange on that subject earlier in the thread, and he said:
 
 
Regardless of how well that concept is embraced by the jury, there's a lot of truth to what you're saying.  I've seen this as a potential weakness/problem from early on.  The defense opening (roadmap for the jury) placed AH close in time and space to the killing, but promised all kinds of glaring problems (and a celebrity witch hunt, basically).   I don't think they delivered that.  They didn't float the W/O freak out theory from the beginning of the trial.  Jurors can (and will) ask why.   If the defense "switches horses" and pops out a novel theory which AH is the best witness to, the jury is going to have a huge temptation in terms of expecting AH to testify and/or asking why he didn't.   (FWIW, if the defense had said, early on, that something happened the state couldn't prove, and that AH didn't have to explain, they'd be on much better ground.  If they alluded to the W/O theory from the get go, they'd be on much much better ground.  If they had used witnesses (in cross) to talk about the reasons anyone in AH's situation could have reasons to help W/O post shooting (finances, contract loss, endorsement loss, fear of family target by crazy guys, etc.) it would be better still.  Jenkins and the cousin/aunt would have been the most obvious vehicles for that type of info.  The defense would have put their argument "out there" during the trial itself and won some credibility. 
 
I think the juror's statement is accurate: Hernandez could have helped himself by testifying. If the defense's theory of the case is true (Hernandez was there but didn't do it), then Hernandez presumably has evidence (eyewitness testimony) that could exonerate him. He didn't offer that.
 

NortheasternPJ

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 16, 2004
19,389
I agree with their statement but imagine the shit show of questions he would have faced on the stand?

I know the defense didn't have much to work with but its like they didn't even try to propose an alternative theory, outside of the weak pcp stuff. Their whole case was just praying the state didn't have enough.
 

Shelterdog

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Feb 19, 2002
15,375
New York City
Average Reds said:
To be clear, there's no settling up between us. The bet was to be paid to charity.

He's now acknowledged the bet, so I am certain he will pay.
 
That blustery fuck isn't paying up? This is the aha moment where we realize that guy should be banned.
 

Over Guapo Grande

panty merchant
SoSH Member
Nov 29, 2005
4,509
Worcester
I only really followed testimony through here, so was there any mention of CTE, or is that something that would need to be put out there pre-trial as a defense. I admit that I have learned all I know about law from Jack McCoy , but I am guessing you can't have your cake and eat it too- "He didn't do it, but if he did do it, the multiple concussions which he has certainly suffered in his career may have led him to act irrationally "?
 

Kevin Youkulele

wishes Claude Makelele was a Red Sox
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Jul 12, 2006
8,935
San Diego
There was no insanity or irrationality defense. Closest thing was using the PCP "expert" which seemed either half hearted or half baked and it was directed toward Wallace and Ortiz, not Hernandez.
 

mauidano

Mai Tais for everyone!
SoSH Member
Aug 21, 2006
35,998
Maui
Please bitches.  Suicide watch?  No way. Just a common thing they do with newly sentenced prisoners.  This guy is ice cold.  He doesn't have the balls to take his own life, he's a psychopath.  He'll be arrogant to the last breath.  He'll be a "big man on campus" in prison. His life was over the day they cops led him out of his house in his orange shorts and white t-shirt over his cuffed arms.  He's already adjusted to his reality. He's had a lot of time to think this out.
 

smastroyin

simpering whimperer
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2002
20,684
First, I want to apologize, I completely forgot about Shirley.  Though I do wonder why Mass needs space for 3000ish maximum security offenders, that's another thread.
 
Second, I want to apologize for raising old issues.  I forgot that AH's defense team basically admitted that AH was at the scene before the trial even started, in trying (and succeeding) to get OL's text's dismissed as evidence.  So my question is, you have this pre-trial stuff (obviously not seen by the jury) where they say yes he was there, then they try in the trial to establish some doubt (that's there job I suppose but the evidence was overwhelming?), and then at the end of the day had to admit again that he was there but didn't do it or mean to have it happen.  Doesn't think put them in a bit of a corner?  I guess they played it well since I forgot about it but basically they've admitted to Garsh that they know AH was there, but then they force state to make the case again at the trial (wasting some time in the process).  How does that work?  I suppose the simplest explanation is that what they said to Garsh did not really amount to admitting AH was at the scene, and was instead just that they didn't need the texts to prove it?
 

dcmissle

Deflatigator
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Aug 4, 2005
28,269
Via PFT. Interview of jailer who spent 18 months with AH. Says AH views jail "like training camp." No change of demeanor after verdict.

If lives were not lost, this would be pretty funny.

Time will tell, but I don't think he is a poseur. It seems he is genuinely stone cold and quite comfortable on the inside.
 

joe dokes

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
30,614
dcmissle said:
Via PFT. Interview of jailer who spent 18 months with AH. Says AH views jail "like training camp."
 
I suppose there are those who equate BB to a prison guard.
 

Rovin Romine

Johnny Rico
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
24,593
Miami (oh, Miami!)
smastroyin said:
First, I want to apologize, I completely forgot about Shirley.  Though I do wonder why Mass needs space for 3000ish maximum security offenders, that's another thread.
 
Second, I want to apologize for raising old issues.  I forgot that AH's defense team basically admitted that AH was at the scene before the trial even started, in trying (and succeeding) to get OL's text's dismissed as evidence.  So my question is, you have this pre-trial stuff (obviously not seen by the jury) where they say yes he was there, then they try in the trial to establish some doubt (that's there job I suppose but the evidence was overwhelming?), and then at the end of the day had to admit again that he was there but didn't do it or mean to have it happen.  Doesn't think put them in a bit of a corner?  I guess they played it well since I forgot about it but basically they've admitted to Garsh that they know AH was there, but then they force state to make the case again at the trial (wasting some time in the process).  How does that work?  I suppose the simplest explanation is that what they said to Garsh did not really amount to admitting AH was at the scene, and was instead just that they didn't need the texts to prove it?
 
It's a bit weird.  
 
The state has the burden.  So the defense can change positions over the life of a case, especially if the position is sort of a "hypothetical" you adopt for a limited purpose.  (This is the non-technical explanation.)   So for example, as a defense attorney you can say "Hey, we're saying if AH did X, it shouldn't be held against him  - because no one that did X can have it held against them."   Then later you can adopt the position that AH didn't do X - wasn't even in the state, because what you were doing is taking a run at a legal concept.  Judge's don't care about that sort of thing.  (However there's a limit - you can't lie or put on false testimony, etc.  I'm just painting very broadly.  Generally you can't do something legally, get results from it, and then turn around and argue the opposite while benefiting from the results.)
 
However, while the defense can also change positions in front of a jury, that jury might care very much about that sort of thing (changes).  So much of the complaining/critique in the thread was about the defense telling the jury A, then switching to B, then arguing C in the close.  I can't say it's a losing strategy per se, but it certainly didn't help them in this case.  Whether the defense also argued D and E to judge at some point is pretty irrelevant.  
 
Status
Not open for further replies.