Could that possibly in the least bit explain some of his stupidity? In that he can't actually be as stupid as it seems because he was somewhat 'blinded' by deep psychological issues? I'm not trying to defend him in any way fyi.
Aaron Hernandez charged with 1st degree murder; released by Patriots
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Could that possibly in the least bit explain some of his stupidity? In that he can't actually be as stupid as it seems because he was somewhat 'blinded' by deep psychological issues? I'm not trying to defend him in any way fyi.
Burn Out said:
And a union is but a collection of individuals, in this case fewer than 2000.
It will not allow AH's contractual rights to be run over. Because if it allows it in this case, there is a 100% chance that one of the 32 owners will push the AH precedent in another case. That's how the owners roll.
So if, for example -- and I don't know this to be the case, one way or another -- the Pats forfeited certain rights in flat out cutting AH when they did, the union will do all it can to ensure that those rights remain forfeited.
dcmissle said:
Felger is a douche. He's used every possible angle he can think of to paint the Pats in a poor light in all of this. Every time I've made the mistake of turning on his show in the past couple weeks, he's been non-stop going on and on about how the Pats should have seen this coming, they should have known what AH really was, their "investigative" folks didn't do their jobs, heads should roll, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH.
Now, guys like Abraham are comparing the Pats response to what the Sox would do in the same hypothetical situation? It's absurd. Fuck, the Sox probably would have had meeting after meeting, and leaked a bunch of shit in an effort to figure out a way to market and monetize the situation. That's what the Sox do. Anyone paying attention to the Pats for the past dozen years know that's not the game they are in. They cut ties, they shut their mouths and they move on. Whether it's the AH situation, the Randy Moss situation, the Lawyer Milloy, Bledsoe or Deion Branch or any of a million other things that have happened.
Some fucking guy that they took a flier on in the 4th round with character issues turned out to be pretty damned good on the field. He also turned out to be a scumbag off of it. He got arrested, now he's gone. The end. As far as the Pats are concerned. I hope like hell BB and the rest of the organization never say a word and never give into these mouth-breathers looking to make a story out of one that doesn't exist, with respect to their culpability.
dcmissle said:
That's what Im confused about, were the fact that he's been released and is being held without bail on premeditated murder charges not clear enough on this point?
Im sure BB and Kraft will both be asked about this at training camp. BB will obviously say "I can only comment on players on the team". Kraft is more of a wild card, but he's either going to refuse comment of he's going to say something about having sympathy for the victim more than anything and that its an unfortunate situation. Im sure both of these fascinating answers can wait until the next time there is an organized team activity. I do agree with Rudy that the players are probably under a gag order, but ordering not to comment on an ongoing legal matter seems pretty standard too.
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24JoshuaPoint said:
Well, from my armchair, you might offer some possibilities including:
- He's not stupid, he just believes himself to be invincible or divinely empowered to do things other people aren't
- He's not stupid, his mind just doesn't process the consequences of his actions
- He's not stupid, he just doesn't see other people as 'people' deserving of respect and treatment as an equal, but rather, sees them as stick figures to be toyed with as he pleases
- He's not stupid, he just always acts "in the moment" and gives little thought to the future and even less about the past
Here's a story I really enjoyed a few months ago, about a journalist who got a (minor, temporary) procedure that let him experience what being a psychopath was like. Here's another worthwhile article explaining things in layman's terms. Here's a more in-depth but still very accessible explanation. And there are various questionnaire tests around the internet (the 'real' clinical one is the PCL-R) that can let you do your own armchair diagnosis.
What really struck me in Hernandez's case is the fact that he's completely calm and seemingly emotionless even while being arraigned for murder or adjusting to being in jail (having never been there before). Those are situations in which 'normal' people, whether guilty or innocent, would be terrified or at the very least showing strong emotions one way or the other. Add that to some of the facts listed at arraignment, and it pings the psychopathy radar a little bit. Long way from knowing anything, but that's perhaps one lens through which to view the Aaron Hernandez story here.
Since this seems to be one of the plot-lines the media's grasping to for whatever the reason -- what, in the form of a comment from the team, would satisfy their story-seeking urges? Shouldn't it be expected at this point that the organization is going to remain silent on off-field matters? Are they just hoping for a slip-up watershed moment to run with?
I fully expect BB to say that he's prepared to talk about people that are on the team. Period. Kraft may go another route but I don't expect to hear Belichick address it at all.
I'd like to see Pete stand up at a Pats press conference and get a statement, nay, a single remark of substance, from BB on this topic. It's not happening.
There is no manager in baseball, maybe not even a general manager, with remotely the same level of power that BB has.
There is no manager in baseball, maybe not even a general manager, with remotely the same level of power that BB has.
Deathofthebambino said:
The most I'm prepared to concede on your first bolded point is that the team knowingly assumed certain risks when they drafted him, and it blew up in their faces. But there is no right/wrong risk assessment on any given player; it's a matter of appetite. (This is to be contrasted with a pattern of guys blowing up you, and that has not happened in Fox). And it should be noted that there were a legion of critics when the team passed on Dez Bryant. So yes, Felger is a douche; as his defenders repeat endlessly in the media thread, he's in the "entertainment" business.
Once you get past the draft, there is no "should have known" here. Dez, again, is a good example. I believe Jones had at least 3 babysitters assigned to him at one point last year, and that is after Dez got into trouble. You can't protect guys 24/7 from themselves 52 weeks a year.
As for your second bolded point, the Red Sox are poster boys for how not to handle things of this sort. Lucchino and Company typically spin themselves into the ground. So whenever someone says, "the RS would have handled something like this very differently", I figure the other team is handling it exactly right.
This is rapidly becoming an episode of CSI.
Man Connected to Aaron Hernandez Investigation Killed in Car Crash in Connecticut
Man Connected to Aaron Hernandez Investigation Killed in Car Crash in Connecticut
Burn Out said:
Agreed---I think we saw in their handling of the baseball steroid crisis that there exist situations where the right way to help players as a group is NOT to defend an individual player given the right set of facts.
I am not sure Hernandez is going to fall into that category, but 'the union will defend him no matter what' may or may not be true, and if it is it may not be a good policy for the union.
Unclear to me what legal obligation to defend a union member regardless of the facts of the situation might exist, though if someone is a labor law expert they may well know of one! If nothing else, I believe that as a policy matter most unions have a very, very high bar on choosing not to defend a player, and they should.
Myt1 said:
I'd have to guess you're wrong. I assume neither of us have statistics - but I bet the % of murderers that have assaulted bouncers and punched their hand through windows is significantly higher than the % of non-murderers that have done the same. Sure, there are plenty of guys holding down 9-5 jobs with families that have done the same... but if you run through a sample of murderers, I bet a big chunk of those guys have done the same or similar.
Pancakes? It's possible... I
I'm a little confused about the hearsayness of the NFL quote. It would be hearsay if she simply testified that she heard her brother was with AH, but don't they have an actual text here? Presumably they can retrieve it from his or her phone. Would her understanding of what the text meant be hearsay, or are you guys saying that the text itself might possibly be hearsay or inadmissable?
FWIW, I think the meaning of the NFL text is pretty clear in showing that he was with Hernandez, especially considering it was a text message, which routinely use all kinds of abbreviations in order to save typing on awkward devices. Beyond that is a little more murky regarding the atmosphere of the car or whether he knew what was going to happen or not.
As soon as he saw the cotton candy bubblicious calling card, he should have known he was going to be murdered, and then texted FBI Director Robert Mueller letting him know that he was about to be killed by two people who crossed state lines in a rental car from Rhode Island. It's the only smart thing to do, really.
FWIW, I think the meaning of the NFL text is pretty clear in showing that he was with Hernandez, especially considering it was a text message, which routinely use all kinds of abbreviations in order to save typing on awkward devices. Beyond that is a little more murky regarding the atmosphere of the car or whether he knew what was going to happen or not.
amarshal2 said:
As soon as he saw the cotton candy bubblicious calling card, he should have known he was going to be murdered, and then texted FBI Director Robert Mueller letting him know that he was about to be killed by two people who crossed state lines in a rental car from Rhode Island. It's the only smart thing to do, really.
In Vino Vinatieri said:
Hearsay isn't just about the quality of the evidence (otherwise the text would be admitted so long as the phone company established its veracity), it's also about the ability to confront a witness. If the prosecution admits this "statement" from Lloyd for its substance, it's as if he were testifying without giving the defense the opportunity to question him.
If no murder weapon is found and no one saw AH kill Lloyd...then AH isn't going to prison for first-degree murder...
But it's still not a murder weapon or a witness.Shelterdog said:
From the evidence that's been presented in the media, I can't see anything but an accessory to murder charge, at most. If I'm on the jury, and I see the evidence that's available right now, and if I do my job honorably, I have to say that I THINK AH is very likely the trigger man but there's zero evidence to establish beyond a reasonable doubt that he WAS the trigger man.
timelysarcasm said:
Toss in the brawl at the Gold Roc Diner in West Hartford over the weekend, and this is turning into quite the crime spree.
That car really f'ed up the Farmington Country Club - hit the building 10 feet in the air after flying over 100 feet and snapping a telephone pole in half.
Intriguing. And what also stands out in that report is AH's near-perfect football acumen. Which is of course what the Patriots value above all else. An interesting analysis, but it's still hard to see how even these results would predict an incredibly immature 20 year old will become a murderer. Polian's self-congratulatory remarks aside...didn't he employ Marvin Harrison?
Edit: Thank you shelterdog...
Edit: Thank you shelterdog...
Intriguing. And what also stands out in that report is AH's near-perfect football acumen. Which is of course what the Patriots value above all else. An interesting analysis, but it's still hard to see how even these results would predict an incredibly immature 20 year old will become a murderer. Polian's self-congratulatory remarks aside...didn't he employ Marvin Harrison?
Polian drafted caerruth in the first round.
Polian drafted caerruth in the first round.
kolbitr said:
Yes he did. And Mike Brown's me-too is hilarious given the Bengals' track record.
You've hit the crucial point: given the pool NFL players are drawn from, you can conservatively predict trouble for 25% of them if things don't break right, maybe more. But Murder 1? Nope.
This underscores that beneath the veneer of tough minded men running what is presented to the world as the civilian equivalent of the United States Marine Corps are a bunch of petty old broads that would make a bridge club blush.
Scott Peterson might have a different opinion. He's on death row for first degree murder without a witness or even a probable cause of death, let alone a murder weapon.The Pedrophile said:
Seriously, dude, it took me about 15 seconds to find this example on the Internet. I'm sure there's thousands of others...
Legal nerd butting in here...
I've been following the hearsay/text discussion and been trying to figure out how they get Lloyd's texts in. Seemed like none of the hearsay exceptions in Mass. really would work. Now, it's been nearly a decade since I took the bar, I've never seen the inside of a real courtroom, and my practice doesn't involve the rules of evidence in any way, so I'm not exactly an evidence expert. But if I'm remembering things correctly, I think they should be able to get the texts in by using them to prove facts other than what the statements in the texts say directly (that is, to prove something other than that Lloyd was with "NFL"). Someone alluded to it above, talking about someone calling about a fire.
I've been thinking about it for days trying to come up with else they could use the texts for, and I'm amazed that not only did it take me this long, but that no else has mentioned it. I kept focusing on the effect on his sister, or whatever, but it's much simpler - time of death. The texts are critical in narrowing down the window for time of death. Because, obviously, dead men don't text. The "NFL" text proves he was alive at the time he sent it, and time of death is obviously important in any murder case, but especially in one like this where the prosecutors have to construct a timeline using circumstantial evidence, and it's important that his death happened when they say it did.
Now, there's a caveat that you still have to authenticate it and prove that it was really him who sent it. If you watch enough Dateline, you know murderers have been known to send texts from their victims' phones after they're dead, in order to trick people into thinking that they're still alive. So the "NFL" text to the sister could be used to prove it was really him, because presumably she can testify that she knew it was code only he would have used. The only other plausible explanation would be that some other unknown person killed Lloyd, then used his phone to send the sister a text in order to frame AH (and knew that Lloyd would call him "NFL"). Which seems...unlikely. (The only other explanation would be if AH, Ortiz, or Wallace sent it. I know we all agree that AH is a moron, but come on, it's one thing to be dumb, but I still don't think he's going to actively implicate himself.)
Anyway, some other legal nerds can chime in here, but I don't see hearsay being a problem - it shouldn't even be relevant, because it seems to me they should use them to help establish time of death (or at least to narrow the window for it). I assume the prosecutor wouldn't be allowed to say that the texts prove he was with "NFL" minutes before he was killed (because that still is hearsay), but that doesn't prevent the jury from concluding it on their own.
I've been following the hearsay/text discussion and been trying to figure out how they get Lloyd's texts in. Seemed like none of the hearsay exceptions in Mass. really would work. Now, it's been nearly a decade since I took the bar, I've never seen the inside of a real courtroom, and my practice doesn't involve the rules of evidence in any way, so I'm not exactly an evidence expert. But if I'm remembering things correctly, I think they should be able to get the texts in by using them to prove facts other than what the statements in the texts say directly (that is, to prove something other than that Lloyd was with "NFL"). Someone alluded to it above, talking about someone calling about a fire.
I've been thinking about it for days trying to come up with else they could use the texts for, and I'm amazed that not only did it take me this long, but that no else has mentioned it. I kept focusing on the effect on his sister, or whatever, but it's much simpler - time of death. The texts are critical in narrowing down the window for time of death. Because, obviously, dead men don't text. The "NFL" text proves he was alive at the time he sent it, and time of death is obviously important in any murder case, but especially in one like this where the prosecutors have to construct a timeline using circumstantial evidence, and it's important that his death happened when they say it did.
Now, there's a caveat that you still have to authenticate it and prove that it was really him who sent it. If you watch enough Dateline, you know murderers have been known to send texts from their victims' phones after they're dead, in order to trick people into thinking that they're still alive. So the "NFL" text to the sister could be used to prove it was really him, because presumably she can testify that she knew it was code only he would have used. The only other plausible explanation would be that some other unknown person killed Lloyd, then used his phone to send the sister a text in order to frame AH (and knew that Lloyd would call him "NFL"). Which seems...unlikely. (The only other explanation would be if AH, Ortiz, or Wallace sent it. I know we all agree that AH is a moron, but come on, it's one thing to be dumb, but I still don't think he's going to actively implicate himself.)
Anyway, some other legal nerds can chime in here, but I don't see hearsay being a problem - it shouldn't even be relevant, because it seems to me they should use them to help establish time of death (or at least to narrow the window for it). I assume the prosecutor wouldn't be allowed to say that the texts prove he was with "NFL" minutes before he was killed (because that still is hearsay), but that doesn't prevent the jury from concluding it on their own.
If no murder weapon is found and no one saw AH kill Lloyd...then AH isn't going to prison for first-degree murder...
This is just plain wrong. Juries are allowed to make reasonable inferences from circumstantial evidence.
Here in Indiana a guy was convicted of the very high profile murder of an IU undergrad on significantly weaker evidence than what the prosecution says it has on Hernandez.
This is just plain wrong. Juries are allowed to make reasonable inferences from circumstantial evidence.
Here in Indiana a guy was convicted of the very high profile murder of an IU undergrad on significantly weaker evidence than what the prosecution says it has on Hernandez.
jojomountainview said:
It's easy enough to prove the fact of the text message, without proving its content. In other words, the judge could allow them to introduce evidence of the text occurring, without allowing them to introduce the contents.
Rudy Pemberton said:
How do those tests work? Even if the players couldn't figure it out for themselves, I'd think their agents would instruct them to choose the most responsible answers.
Also now apparently being investigated for a role in a shooting in Florida when he was 17 (and was possibly even id'ed by one of the victims)
timelysarcasm said:
I was thinking a Grisham novel, but same idea.
Did we have this yet?
If Aaron Hernandez wants to marry his high school sweetheart and
mother of his 7-month-old daughter, it's not going to happen while he's
in the Bristol County jail, Bristol County Sheriff Thomas M. Hodgson
told USA TODAY Sports on Tuesday.
Whether Hernandez wanted to tie the knot for love or courtroom strategy, Hodgson won't have it.
"I don't subscribe to that. I feel that those rights are things that you
access on the outside, if you're a good citizen," he said. "We'll do
everything we can to not have that happen."
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2013/07/02/aaron-hernandez-marry-jail/2484793/
Whoa. From gdiguy's link.
" The two men and a friend of theirs had left a nightclub and were in their car stopped at a light blocks away when their vehicle was fired upon, according to the statements two of the men gave to police"
Does something about this sound familiar?
" The two men and a friend of theirs had left a nightclub and were in their car stopped at a light blocks away when their vehicle was fired upon, according to the statements two of the men gave to police"
Does something about this sound familiar?
There has to be a pic of him vaguely throwing up an East Coast sign, right? I think you guys are onto something with this Tupac theory.
BoredViewer said:
Maybe that's how AH scored "10" on the "Mental Quickness" portion of the test, because the current set of facts don't show anything to that degree . . . .
ShaneTrot said:
Great comparison.
Except the additional 4 yards per catch, the half a catch more a game, and the additional 23 touchdowns.
Pretty close comparison though.
Polian and Brown are always worth making fun of, but the latest ESPN report indicates there were significant background rumblings on AH before he was drafted.
Is this Patriots-related anymore? Could we maybe lock or move the discussion? Am I the only one tired of seeing it be the "Most Recent" when jumping into the forum?
I guess the alternatives may be Tebow or Paleskins. These are truly dark days in BBTL.
I guess the alternatives may be Tebow or Paleskins. These are truly dark days in BBTL.
Nobody is saying there weren't rumblings. There were rumblings, which is why he was a 4th round pick and not a top 5 pick. This isn't news.Harry Hooper said:
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