I mentioned this before but one great thing about KP is that his ability to get to the line really helps during crunch time. No better way of breaking scoring droughts than shooting FTs.
2023-24 Celtics
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Indeed. Orlando who has won the last four consecutive games against Boston seems to be this Celtics team's kryptonite. In their last meeting Orlando beat the Celtics by 17 which is the biggest point difference in a loss of the season for Boston. I'm not sure who among KP, Horford and Kornet are going to play tonight. Horford and Kornet appear to be game time decisions. Would not seem like an opportune time to play a small line up. Orlando is long and fiesty. They are also well rested as they last played on Monday.
Tonight should be a fun game and good test for the Celtics. I have a Christmas dinner party and won't be able to watch the game live. Haven't decided yet whether to check in on the game throughout the evening or to wait until later tonight to watch the recorded game. Small chance that there is a TV with the game on at the party in which case I may not be very social.
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Calf/cow jokes aside, I'm 1000% committed to resting KP any time that he has a calf tightness. He looked fine last night, but this is not a thing to mess with. Not a doctor, but we've had a few instances over the last few years--not just in basketball--where dudes with calf tightness turn into dudes with torn achilles. Unsubscribe from that shit. Rest the man.
well played
I thought KP moved a little gingerly yesterday, but I'm a self-admitted worrywart about player health during the regular season.
KP didn't seem to have his explosiveness under the rim, again maybe my bias at work
In the same vane from above if CJM wanted to rest both KP & Al tonight I wouldn't kick up a fuss.
Let CJM go mad scientist & play around with player lineups (ie. play small with Stevens/Brissett at the 5) then bring everybody back for Sunday's silly afternoon matinee
Could be right. Tough to tell from one game. I'm fine with more Kornet and deep depth guys. Winning the regular season doesn't mean anything (ask the Bruins). KP unlocks shit, especially Jaylen.I thought KP moved a little gingerly yesterday, but I'm a self-admitted worrywart about player health during the regular season.
KP didn't seem to have his explosiveness under the rim, again maybe my bias at work
When KP sat at the end (after he came in and settled the offense down, after Al Came in and settled the defense down) there was shot just before a commercial where KP was back to to the camera and was pushing his hip with his hand. Made me think maybe he got hit. Sit him so he can quite playing head shoulders hips and calves game.
Someone (maybe you?) already called for a schedule loss tonightIn the same vane from above if CJM wanted to rest both KP & Al tonight I wouldn't kick up a fuss.
Let CJM go mad scientist & play around with player lineups (ie. play small with Stevens/Brissett at the 5) then bring everybody back for Sunday's silly afternoon matinee
. If I could be CJM for the night I would play everyone who is healthy and try to reverse the Orlando hex and keep the home winning streak alive.In a recent interview Tatum referred to these odd two game series vs Cleveland and Orlando as mini playoff series. I think they should play them just like that and they are good practice for when the games really count in the spring.
That said, I won't be upset if the Celtics lean heavily on the deep bench and don't get a win tonight.
It's more of a problematic matchup than a scheduling loss since the Celtics, while at a rest disadvantage, aren't traveling at all.Someone (maybe you?) already called for a schedule loss tonight
In a recent interview Tatum referred to these odd two game series vs Cleveland and Orlando as mini playoff series. I think they should play them just like that and they are good practice for when the games really count in the spring.
That said, I won't be upset if the Celtics lean heavily on the deep bench and don't get a win tonight.
The "scheduled loss" is an HRB trademark, he has a good pulse on the effects of game times, road losses, back-to-backs, etc.Someone (maybe you?) already called for a schedule loss tonight
In a recent interview Tatum referred to these odd two game series vs Cleveland and Orlando as mini playoff series. I think they should play them just like that and they are good practice for when the games really count in the spring.
That said, I won't be upset if the Celtics lean heavily on the deep bench and don't get a win tonight.
Besides being a hand-wringer about Horford & KP regarding games played/minutes this season, I also like the idea of seeing what they have in Kornet, Queta, Stevens, Brissett, etc.
It's not like they contained Moe Wagner! with double BIGZ last time
BUT I'm just guessing and the trainers/players know what they are doing here.
Because they pop out when anyone says "Wonder"? Or because they throw up more W's?
Where are you getting these +/- numbers? I'm seeing Brown at +4, White at +9, Tatum at +2, Jrue at +11 and KP at -1.
Meanwhile, Sam fucking Hauser didn't miss a shot (only got 3 looks) and was a +9 in 18 minutes and Coach Joe thought he didn't deserve time in the 4th quarter, while Lamar played 5.5 minutes....
Joes lack of trust beyond the top six and his rotations are something he has to figure out before the playoffs
Really? He's seemed pretty fine going 8-9 deep regularly. Maybe they just wanted to see Stevens more at some point.
The Celtics 7/8/9 guys (Hauser/Pritchard/Kornet) average 23/20/13 (56 total) minutes per game. Compare that to the 7/8/9 guys in mpg for other EC playoff teams:
Bucks: 23/23/17 (63)
Magic: 22/21/19 (61)
Sixers: 18/17/14 (49)
Pacers: 24/18/15 (57)
Knicks: 23/21/19 (63)
Heat: 28/27/22 (77)
Nets: 28/27/21 (76)
Cavs: 24/23/20 (67)
Raptors: 18/16/14 (48)
Fewer minutes than most, but not wildly different than the group. It's not a surprise that a big reason why 7/8/9 guys get more minutes is due to injuries, and the Celtics top 6 has been pretty healthy thus far.
Good thing the Magic are such a small team.
View: https://twitter.com/KeithSmithNBA/status/1735714311748661447
View: https://twitter.com/KeithSmithNBA/status/1735714311748661447
Hauser was blanketed pretty good by the Cavs. I'm sure he went to Stevens playing against his old team for the adrenaline/motivation bump players gets when they circle games on the schedule. He was out there scrapping and doing the dirty work but then Cleveland began baiting us into swing to him for open threes and that's when he was pulled.
Yes it is certainly a problematic match up for the Celtics. Particularly given the team's lack of big men.
Next man up. This makes the game more interesting.
Good, let's go super small and high energy, throw all the bench wings in there as wrecking balls. Let's have some fun.
I like CJM's rotation and have wanted to see Stevens play. LS was getting feisty with Dono, and the Celtics could use some "nasty" on their bench. He could give 10 good minutes of defense on a Giannis-type (Banchero tonight).
The game got slow in the 2nd half. Joe needs to figure out how to get Hauser minutes since his high/quick release works great in the halfcourt. Credit to Joe for burying the "Hauser can't play defense or match-up vs XYZ player" label in a few pressers
Agreed, I want a few Stevens shoving matches post-whistle
Yup, they're doing exactly the same thing as everyone else, adjusted for health. People need to follow the rest of the league more.
If I were a betting man, I would be absolutely hammering Orlando +4.5 right now
Now it is a scheduled loss.
Because they just cut 2-way center/power forward Nathan Knight, Queta is the only real big available now.
Because they just cut 2-way center/power forward Nathan Knight, Queta is the only real big available now.
Yeah but its Mazzulla. He only has 105 regular season games under his belt (and just 75 of those are wins) - even though he isn't managing the rotation much differently, are we sure he knows what he is doing?
In tight games against quality opponents.. feels to me that he’s gone back to relying on basically playing the starters the entire 4th quarter. I could be wrong though.
I would doublecheck this. Reasonably sure it's not at all the case.
Stevens and Pritchard played awhile in the 4th yesterday, and stuff like that has been the norm.
I haven't looked at other teams.. not sure how it can be done easily.. but have the starting six actually been healthier than most teams? White missed multiple games, KP missed multiple games, Holiday, Brown, Tatum and Horford have all sat at least one game I believe. In addition... have these been adjusted for blowouts? Because the bench played a lot of minutes at the end of games in garbage time.
I know it's easy to look at those numbers and say he's doing the same as everyone else.. but, the numbers, as you said, actually say they're playing them less minutes than most other playoff teams and I'm not sure mpg tells the whole story.. just my two cents.. others have the right to disagree. (Edit: And I also could be wrong and freely admit that as well)
DJBH..maybe you don't need to be snarky about people asking about Joe at every opportunity?
I don't get to watch a lot of games.. although NBA.com has let me watch games here in CT for some reason this year.. so I haven't seen every game. And I freely admit that my 'evidence' is purely anecdotal. You guys are probably right and I just have a bit of PTSD.
If people are complaining about the team, show us why we need to be concerned. Is that too much to ask? "Joe plays too short a rotation for a team that swept a good team in a two game series and is 18-5" may well be a valid complaint. The data is out there and easily obtainable.
Show us why he is screwing up and what the harm is - many of us may well agree.
Show us why he is screwing up and what the harm is - many of us may well agree.
He's getting lucky.
Or, with all of the talent on this team, I could have coached the Cs to 70 wins. You, of course, would have coached them to 80 wins, and if HRB was in charge, they'd never lose a game.
It's that simple.
Ah ok, yeah, it's PTSD. Rotations have been pretty standard, and there are always bench guys on until 6 mins left or so.
The talent argument may be valid - though I do not think I could coach an NBA team to more than a few lucky wins. People absolutely can cite concerns about the team but I don't understand why its so objectionable to ask for something to support the assertion.
Maybe the better way to phrase the thought is, are we sure that the C's rotation isn't too short? I would argue that any post should already include data so we can compare and discuss. The other part of this approach is that looking at the information first will reveal biases.
MPG definitely isn't everything, but it's all I've got. The Celtics top 6 has missed 13 games so far, here's how the rest of the EC playoff teams have fared in comparison:
Bucks: 18
Magic: 38
Sixers: 19
Pacers: 4
Knicks: 8
Heat: 38
Nets: 37
Cavs: 26
Raptors: 7
KP missed 4 straight with his calf, but the rest of the Celtics top 6 has only missed a couple games here and there. They haven't been quite as healthy as Indy or the Knicks, but a few of these teams have been missing major pieces of their rotation for awhile (Crowder, Herro, Carter Jr, Oubre, Bam, Simmons, etc).
If you are trying to find out whether the Cs top 6 have been more or less healthy than other teams the quick and dirty way to do this is to look at total minutes, which you can find in BRef or NBA.com.
As for 4Q, you can find players' stats in the 4Q on NBA.com. Here's the Cs total minutes in the 4Q and their +/-.
| PLAYERS |
GP |
MIN |
+/- |
| Al Horford |
20 |
140 |
-1 |
| Dalano Banton |
9 |
40 |
-29 |
| Derrick White |
17 |
141 |
35 |
| Jaylen Brown |
19 |
141 |
17 |
| Jayson Tatum |
20 |
208 |
32 |
| Jrue Holiday |
18 |
162 |
39 |
| Kristaps Porzingis |
13 |
99 |
14 |
| Lamar Stevens |
6 |
20 |
1 |
| Luke Kornet |
14 |
81 |
4 |
| Neemias Queta |
2 |
8 |
3 |
| Oshae Brissett |
8 |
39 |
-18 |
| Payton Pritchard |
21 |
127 |
20 |
| Sam Hauser |
20 |
141 |
-6 |
| Svi Mykhailiuk |
7 |
33 |
-1 |
Just for fun because it doesn't take long, here's DEN:
| PLAYERS | GP |
MIN |
+/- |
| Aaron Gordon | 19 |
153 |
28 |
| Braxton Key | 6 |
15 |
-10 |
| Christian Braun | 24 |
153 |
-28 |
| Collin Gillespie | 8 |
31 |
7 |
| DeAndre Jordan | 9 |
49 |
-5 |
| Hunter Tyson | 8 |
20 |
3 |
| Jalen Pickett | 8 |
26 |
2 |
| Jamal Murray | 10 |
79 |
-16 |
| Jay Huff | 1 |
2 |
-4 |
| Julian Strawther | 16 |
89 |
-14 |
| Justin Holiday | 14 |
76 |
23 |
| Kentavious Caldwell-Pope | 21 |
158 |
35 |
| Michael Porter Jr. | 23 |
187 |
34 |
| Nikola Jokic | 21 |
156 |
26 |
| Peyton Watson | 20 |
114 |
-9 |
| Reggie Jackson | 26 |
180 |
49 |
| Zeke Nnaji | 17 |
72 |
-21 |
Thanks for the info. I wasn't sure how to go about finding out the info easily and figured people around here would know.
SO it appears I'm incorrect. The playoffs really can't get here fast enough.
Yeah.. it appears I was just wrong. Info does appear to be favorable for Joe so far this year.
I think the variance of games does make it tough as a fan at times. Good to have people around here that can shed light on what the stats show.
Hard to argue with the results so far. It's nice to have a team where one is surprised to see that they're losing when you turn on the game.
I think the primary complaint about the Celtics boils down to the fact that their opponents are really good. This isn’t 2007-2008 or 2008-2009. The Celtics will lose games even when they play hard and well. The depth of the league is unprecedented and it’s largely a good thing. But we won’t get to enjoy too many laughers where Leon Powe takes the ball coast to coast. That’s just not a thing anymore.
Cs top 6 by total minutes, including +/- because why not:
| PLAYERS | GP |
MIN |
+/- |
| Al Horford | 21 |
551 |
103 |
| Derrick White | 20 |
655 |
187 |
| Jaylen Brown | 22 |
750 |
107 |
| Jayson Tatum | 23 |
847 |
175 |
| Jrue Holiday | 21 |
731 |
146 |
| Kristaps Porzingis | 18 |
545 |
112 |
DEN top 6 + Jamal Murray (who is 8th) by total minutes, including +/-:
GP |
MIN |
+/- | |
| Aaron Gordon | 22 |
713 |
101 |
| Christian Braun | 26 |
525 |
-30 |
| Jamal Murray | 12 |
351 |
54 |
| fKentavious Caldwell-Pope | 25 |
822 |
173 |
| Michael Porter Jr. | 26 |
816 |
128 |
| Nikola Jokic | 25 |
834 |
195 |
| Reggie Jackson | 26 |
682 |
47 |
PHO top 6 sorted by total minutes (I should have done this for the previous two but didn't think about it), including +/-:
GP |
MIN |
+/- | |
| Kevin Durant | 20 |
735 |
84 |
| Jusuf Nurkic | 24 |
678 |
122 |
| Eric Gordon | 21 |
673 |
26 |
| Grayson Allen | 19 |
629 |
27 |
| Devin Booker | 15 |
527 |
119 |
| Josh Okogie | 23 |
491 |
29 |
I would love for the Celtics to do to the Magic what a number of teams have done to them in the last few years. Trot out a lineup that makes the other team say "Yeah, we got this" and then have Svi drop 30 points on them.
The '23 Magic aren't better than the Celtics, though, and we've seen lots of nobodies light it up against the Celtics. It'd be nice to have one of those black swan events on our side for a change.
Apologies for the snark - its more just general frustration. This team is really good at full strength and there just isn't a lot to complain about unless you fall into the trap of the fallacy of perfect execution. What I mean by that is this team has the ability to look like one of the absolute best in the NBA for a sustained period. Then they revert to ISOs and poor shot selection which can be frustrating. But - and we all watch enough NBA to know this - this happens across the league. Even Steph or LeBron and absolutely Luka or SGA or Ant or Haliburton will take possessions off, throw up heat check or Eff-it shots or try to beat a fully set defense by themselves.
In short, for me this team is fine and we just need to hope for health when the playoffs roll around. I reserve my right to reassess if they go on a losing streak or Mazzulla starts saving TOs like they are acorns and he is a squirrel.
I was just being oversensitive.
The only thing I could think to worry about is the third quarter issues they've had and continue to have. It's the only thing that doesn't really make sense about this team. So far they've usually been able to overcome it..but it is confusing.
I don't worry as much about Tatum or Brown iso-ing. It feels like it's intentional really more than something, especially Tatum, is just doing on his own. For the most part Tatum makes very good decisions and he's usually the guy I want shooting. Maybe Joe and the coaching staff can show him the stats of where he's the least effective and he'll adjust. The success of this team in the playoffs really lies on KP's legs. If he's healthy the three of them work really well off one another.