2023-2024 Women’s College Basketball
- Thread starter Ale Xander
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This was a great night, better than I remember for men’s college hoops in awhile. When I was in middle school the place was pulsing with excitement the day of a Georgetown/Ewing vs St John’s/Mullin game. Those teams had identity- keeping a core together for 3-4 years wasnt all that Much different than pro ball. That’s what tonight felt like.
These are bigger than life stars, and villains, and stories, and excellent competition.
Great stuff.
These are bigger than life stars, and villains, and stories, and excellent competition.
Great stuff.
Well said.
The mens side is great hoops, but the teams are teams in name only.
Makes things more interesting , if like me, you dont have a rooting interest in any particular laundry
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Either of those changes would be welcome, alternatively, limiting the number of time-outs that advance the ball to midcourt would also accomplish the same thing. Most of the ones at the end are for that and that only; so the defense doesn't end up with an easy basket off a steal.
Bueckers had 28 points, 10 rebounds, and 6 assists, while also guarding Watkins and helping to hold her to 9-25 shooting.
Clark is a great scorer and passer but she’d never draw that defensive assignment or if she did, she’d never defend that well.
Clark is amazing and deserves all the accolades coming her way but Bueckers is the better overall player.
Friday will be fun.
Clark is a great scorer and passer but she’d never draw that defensive assignment or if she did, she’d never defend that well.
Clark is amazing and deserves all the accolades coming her way but Bueckers is the better overall player.
Friday will be fun.
Yeah, Iowa is a very interesting team to watch for that reason. I think clearly, Iowa's talent is a notch below the top teams in women's basketball outside of having Clark. But the Iowa teammates seem to have a perfect understanding on how to play with Clark, which really enhances their ability. They know exactly where to stand, how to cut, to be ready for the ball, and to set screens for Clark. Clark, to her credit, is really unselfish with the ball, especially once she breaks through the perimeter and begins attacking the basket, there were plenty of times I thought she could have made a floater but instead opted to kick the ball out, or set up one of the interior players for a shot.
As a neutral this is just absolutely not true. Clark warps defenses in a way nobody in all of basketball except Curry has ever done. Her value to her team on offense is insane immense. I didn't know Geno was posting on this board
Taurasi did. I mean...We have Diana and you don't was in fact true.As a neutral this is just absolutely not true. Clark warps defenses in a way nobody in all of basketball except Curry has ever done. Her value to her team on offense is insane immense. I didn't know Geno was posting on this board
That Clark hits shots from Curry range doesn’t mean she plays any defense. She doesn’t. Not well anyway. Paige put up 28 points while guarding one of the best scorers in the country and holding her to 9-25 shooting. Clark could never hope to do that.As a neutral this is just absolutely not true. Clark warps defenses in a way nobody in all of basketball except Curry has ever done. Her value to her team on offense is insane immense. I didn't know Geno was posting on this board
This is correct. To describe Clark as a a "great scorer and passer" without more and then suggest that Bueckers is the better player is either massive homerism or ignorant. What Clark does on offense puts every defender in the mixer, causes defenses to stress beyond their abilities, and creates opportunities for her 4 other teammates that Bueckers could only dream of creating. Clark's quickness with her handle, her side-stepping 3s, and her ability to see the floor from 90' is remarkable. Her passing is leaps and bounds better than Bueckers, or perhaps more fairly, Clark's insane range causes defenses to extend so much that Clark's great passing finds her players on cuts, back cuts, long runs, etc.. Bueckers has exhibited nothing of the sort. Bueckers may be a better defender, and not taking anything away from her as she is a great basketball player, probably one of the top 5 women in the college game today, but as Mulkey said, Clark is generational.As a neutral this is just absolutely not true. Clark warps defenses in a way nobody in all of basketball except Curry has ever done. Her value to her team on offense is insane immense. I didn't know Geno was posting on this board
Meanwhile, South Carolina must be sitting back thinking “whatevs.” Don’t want to talk about our undefeated team? Wake us up when they give the trophy to individual players.
I guess I could also add “y’all keep talking about the white girls.” (Spoken to ESPN, not to anyone here.)
I guess I could also add “y’all keep talking about the white girls.” (Spoken to ESPN, not to anyone here.)
Bueckers is a better defender than Clark--but that doesn't make her a better overall player. Jaylen Brown is a better defender than Luka Doncic, it doesn't mean they have similar value on the court.
I actually think Clark is a pretty good defensive player, given her offensive responsibilities. Iowa plays a zone a lot of the time, so she isn't shadowing anyone directly, but she has good length for a perimeter player, has good instincts and gets steals. She's also a very good rebounder, and there were several moments in yesterdays game where she went into the trenches with Morrow and Reese and came away with the ball.
I don't think a single non-Clark Iowa player would start for UCONN, South Carolina, LSU, USC, or any of the other top teams in women's basketball at the moment.
She wasn't bad at all, but wasn't great
Jokes, aside, she's fun to watch. The semis should be awesome.
EDIT: And Clark was 41 on 29.
Yeah, just to riff on this a bit, the best woman left in the tournament is not Clark or Bueckers. It is . . . . Dawn Staley. I know that's cheating and not what people are talking about, but you won't find a more impressive resume in sports, or at least you have to look hard to do so. She's a hall of fame coach and player. She's also built an amazing program from the ground up. Lots of coaches tried to knock Pat Summitt off the pedestal. It was ultimately Geno that did it, and you could argue that his doing so coincided with opening up the women's game a bit and propelling it forward. The book on Geno is not written yet, but you could make a similar argument that while many have tried to push him off the pedestal, it's looking as though Staley may be the one to have done it (along with others obviously, but she's leading the charge), and in so doing is coinciding with an era of propulsion in the women's game.
But these are kind of abstract points. The bigger point is that last night's breathless "biggest night in college basketball" does ignore the undefeated team that is going for its second championship in three years. Basketball is not like the other sports. They don't wear helmets or hats. There are only 5 on the court at once. We tend to root for transcendent players more than transcendent teams. I get all that. And Clark is transcendent. But I also have this slightly nagging feeling that part of the coverage does have something to do with the fact that the best team in women's college basketball over the last couple of years looks like this:
https://gamecocksonline.com/sports/wbball/roster/
Yeah as a rival to UConn I don’t like South Carolina but I think Staley is absolutely fantastic. If Geno wasn’t at UConn I’d love it if Staley was the Huskies coach. That won’t ever happen but I’d love it.
I think Clark is more skilled offensively than Paige. She is quicker and shoots accurately from further out.
But it’s like people forget just how good Paige is offensively. She scores tons of points on far fewer shots. She dishes tons of assists. She gets a bunch of rebounds. Look at her overall stats, including efficiency. And then take into account that she’s played every position on the floor. She began her career as the point guard and now she’s the 4, but has actually played the 5 at times this year. She posts up effectively at both the high and low post. She can score from anywhere on the court.
She is an absolutely dynamic offensive player and more varied than Clark. But Clark is definitely quicker with a better handle and shoots better from deeper than Paige does. But we are comparing a superlative scorer who takes a ton of shots (Clark) to a merely great scorer who takes fewer shots (Paige) who also plays much better defense and is more versatile.
Scoring efficiency
Clark: 32.0 points on 22.7 FGA (1.41 pts/FGA)
Paige: 22.0 points on 15.3 FGA (1.44 pts/FGA)
Possession (Reb+Blocks+Steals-turnovers)
Clark: 7.3 reb + 0.5 blk + 1.8 stl - 4.8 to = +4.8
Paige: 5.2 reb + 1.4 blk + 2.3 stl - 1.5 to = +7.4
Assist to turnover
Clark: 9.0 ast : 4.8 to = 1.88 ast:to
Paige: 3.9 ast : 1.5 to = 2.60 ast:to
Clark has the ball a lot more, which will mean more assists and many more shots but also more turnovers. But let’s not pretend that Paige is anything but a tremendous offensive player herself.
And by the way, I heard today people talking up Clark is the greatest women’s college player of all time. She may be the most talented offensive player ever in the women’s college game, but the college GOAT is unquestionably Breanna Stewart.
3x national POY
4x NCAA tournament MOP
4x NCAA champion
3x first team all american
3x conference POY
It’s almost impossible to top her résumé.
3x national POY
4x NCAA tournament MOP
4x NCAA champion
3x first team all american
3x conference POY
It’s almost impossible to top her résumé.
If you guys owned a NBA team would you take Clark in the second round? I get that there are reasons that it would never happen. There is also value to having the best pure shooter under 30 sitting at the back of your bench.
Zero chance unless you wanted to have some sort of novelty night to sell tickets. As good as she is, the top men in D3 would absolutely destroy her - or Paige, or Reese, or any of them. Never mind NBA guys.
Bueckers is going to be more efficient because she plays on a much better team with more options. Clark having virtually the same scoring efficiency by the stats you provided while being pressed at half court and having the entire attention of the defense game planned around you, at all times, is a huge point in her favor.
Nobody is saying Bueckers is bad but there is a lot of jealousy out of the UCONN camp that people are talking about women's basketball and it doesn't involve the Huskies.
Personally I think Clark is a godsend for the women’s game and I’m a big fan and want her to explode on the WNBA scene. I’m an enormous fan of women’s hoops and think Clark is a tremendous shot of adrenaline in the veins of women’s hoops. She’s producing eye popping viewing audiences for the women’s game. So my views on this are not remotely related to any sort of jealousy at all. I’m legit trying to call things as I see them straight up.
And Paige has one other player who is a good scorer on her team in Edwards. The rest are freshmen or non scorers like Muhl. And when Edwards was out in the BE tourney (broken nose), all Bueckers did was put up:
27 points on 16 shots
27 points on 19 shots
28 points on 19 shots
82 points on just 54 shots (1.53 points/FGA) with 14 assists and just 1 turnover
All time record TV ratings.
View: https://twitter.com/THR/status/1775281120596398391
TV Ratings: Iowa-LSU NCAA Rematch Sets All-Time Record for Women's Basketball
View: https://twitter.com/THR/status/1775281120596398391
TV Ratings: Iowa-LSU NCAA Rematch Sets All-Time Record for Women's Basketball
Iowa-UConn might be even higher with Clark vs. Paige (though Iowa-LSU was incredibly compelling and Clark-Reese was a fantastic matchup), and then if Iowa gets past them, Iowa vs. South Carolina would be epic.
This is a great time for women's college basketball.
This is a great time for women's college basketball.
Did you miss who the one seed is? Iowa is supposedly the better team right now. And you could actually make the argument that Iowa's options after the first 2 high scorers are better than UCONN's. Paige is more efficient because she takes smarter shots. You think you're going to hit more shots from 12 feet or 39 feet? Paige doesn't shoot a ton of threes. Clark can hit from a mile away but IMO she is going to be disuaded from doing it as much in the pros. Mainly because it just doesn't make sense. And the "jealousy" you are mentioning is actually just questioning why a player a couple years removed being POY is left out of most conversations about the best in womens college basketball? Just tonight during the McDonald's game the commentator said upfront which of these girls wants to be the next Clark or Reese or Watkins. Paige just isn't mentioned much.
2 point FG%
Paige: 59.2%
Clark: 58.1%
3 point FG%
Paige: 41.8%
Clark: 38.0%
FG%
Paige: 53.4%
Clark: 46.0%
Paige shoots better from two and from three than Clark does. Clark hits shots that Paige - other than in desperation - even tries, which are those Steph Curry range type shots. Which, to be fair, Clark hits at an amazing rate. It's mind boggling what she can do out there, especially from that distance.
But Paige is more efficient everywhere on the court except for those really deep threes. She scores in the paint better. She's better at the midrange. She's even better from three overall.
Clark is a marvel, make no mistake. I've never seen a woman do what she does - not even Taurasi, who is the closest thing to Clark. But her high scoring is largely a function of the number of FG attempts she takes. And, of course, the fact that she's really good. She also gets to the line more (6.8 per game compared to 4.3 for Paige), so she's really doing a great job at that too, which helps a ton.
I mean, Clark is ridiculous in what she can do. It's just that people have largely forgotten about Paige - not even mentioned among the best players in the country, which is absurd (I know she's on the Wooden Award list, but she's not getting very much national talk at all...that's what I mean. She was POY her freshman year then was hurt two years in a row and now, healthy, she's having a better season than when she won the award as a freshman. But I will say that the overall talent in the women's game nowadays is off the charts. I'm seeing women do things that even 10 years ago they weren't even close to doing, except for the megastars like Taurasi and Maya Moore.
I understand why many men don't like the women's game, but I am a huge, huge fan. I think it's great basketball, even without the dunks.
That's huge number especially for ESPN. I thought at most they'd get 9.5-10 million.
How many HS all-americans or Team USA players has Clark played with? Stewart's teams were loaded
Yes those UConn teams had talent and a great HC. But Stewart has proven to be GOAT level at every level she's ever been at, even the WNBA where she's been a 2x MVP, 2x champ, 2x finals MVP, 5x all star, 5x all-WNBA first team (and one second team), Olympic MVP, FIBA World Cup MVP, 5x WNBA all-defense....the list goes on and on.
Her college resume is unsurpassed and never will be surpassed, not even by Clark. Winning FOUR in a row? I mean...come on.
Other great teams - including UConn great teams - had amazing talent too but nobody ever won four in a row.
South Carolina right now has incredible talent - loads of WNBA and all-American talent, but they've never even won two in a row. Last year's SC team had five players drafted into the WNBA just last year alone. Last year's SC roster will end up with probably 10 players who will go on to the WNBA when all is said and done, but they didn't even win it all.
To win four in a row with the same player leading the way? Yeah, there's only one GOAT and it's Breanna Stewart.
This is what I mean with the complete jealousy of Clark by Bueckers/UCONN fans. This is a ranting mess of a post.
I'm not expecting to convince you, but glossing over the quality of teammates in a team game is... something. Clark is different than any female player I've ever seen, going back to at least Cheryl Miller. LSU probably had the second, third, fourth, fifth and sixth best players in last night's game.
I have zero jealousy of Clark. You’re barking up the wrong tree, like, completely. I’m just giving you actual statistical data.
I’m not glossing over anything at all. Other teams besides Stewart’s teams have had loads of WNBA players on them and nobody did what she did. The only one to come close was Taurasi.
Maybe Clark wins several titles with the teammates Stewart had. Who knows. I’d like to think she wins at least one or two. But other otherworldly players had GREAT teammates and didn’t come close to what Stewart accomplished.
My fault, I was actually replying to Strek's post, which was a ranting mess reeking of jealousy that people are talking about Clark and not the UCONN player (and actually bringing up that Iowa being a #1 seed in the tournament is a knock against Clark as opposed to a testament to her dominance given she has led her team to a higher seed with lesser teammates than Bueckers).
But in all honesty, I think you are too smart to be misconstruing the argument by pointing out that Bueckers is a more efficient scorer than Clark. Saying Bueckers is a better three point shooter than Clark, simply because she makes a higher percentage, is an obtuse statement. Stephen Curry has never led the league in three point percentage, yet he is the greatest shooter of all time. Clark's ability to warp defenses in a comedic way are the key to her entire team's offense. She is also a transcendent passer that perfectly takes advantage of the attention her offensive threat occupies by defenses. Bueckers and her and not even remotely comparable offensive players, and anyone that understands the game of basketball can see that.
This again isn't to say that Bueckers is not a great player in her own right, because she is. But this discussion about why people aren't talking about Bueckers, which leads to people claiming Bueckers is better than Clark, just feels like pure jealousy from UCONN fans, even if they can also admit that they genuinely enjoy Clark.
Agreed. Bueckers is one of the top 5 players in women's CBB right now, and I'd even be willing to listen to someone tell me she's #2. But this notion that she can touch what Clark has done this year and last is silly. The Steph Curry comp. is absolutely fitting. Entire defensive game plans are prepared to deal with her. That LSU team was damn good and threw a bunch of shit at her, and she absolutely shredded them. She is often picked up 3/4 court, half court, man to man, all the time. She's doubled all the time, and yet she is scoring in bunches all the time, and dishing to teammates who are very good (I think people are underselling her teammates), but are not future WNBA players, nevermind close to All-Americans. She controls the pace of the game, the ball is in her hands for more than 50% of offensive possessions, she is fit as hell and she has otherworldly confidence performing under the utmost stress. As noted before, Bueckers is great, Clark is generational.
I was going to make the Steph comp last night but fell asleep. Another similarity is they passed up blue blood schools to stay in state, at place that was in relative obscurity before they got there and put their teammates on their shoulders.
Stewart is to Cheryl Miller as Lebron is to Wilt Chamberlain, as Serena Williams is to Martina Navratilova.
I hate "greatest of all time" talk because it's so easy for people to talk past each other, but I don't think we should proclaim this without also holding up the first player who electrified audiences, packed the arena, and became a national phenomenon that legitimized the sport. She won 2 of the first 3 NCAA women's tournaments, which reinforced the NCAA's commitment to investing in them, and influenced other colleges' decisions to establish women's teams of their own. She led the USA to their first olympic gold, came within a buzzer-beater of taking out the USSR in the 1983 World Championship*, and in 1986 did beat the Soviets for the Goodwill Games gold. Cheryl Miller's career spurred three different attempts to establish a viable professional women's BB league, all of which failed... it's really not her fault they didn't get their act together until after her career ended (early, due to injuries), to give her a pro-level showcase. And in college, Miller also had less talent around her than Stewart did, though far more than Clark does today.
I'm a Taurasi fanboy, myself - her competitive intensity and will to dominate is and always has been Pedro-esque, while Stewart's calling cards are less-spectacular things like "never drops her level of focus" and "consistently makes the right decision". It's a matter of taste, ultimately. But in a moment in the sun for the women's game, if we're going to talk about all-time talents and careers, we should spare a word for those who made this level of attention possible in the first place.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hySF4tjnGM
* USSR was led by an unstoppable 7'2" Latvian monster, whose team was undefeated from 1968-1986 and 152-2 over the previous 30 years. Seriously, imagine a Kristaps Porzingis-sized player in the women's game. Girl played at 280 lbs! Even KP is only 240 today. There aren't a lot of clips out there of her, but the ones I've seen make her look like early-career Shaq.
Also, just learned that one of Miller's teammates on those mid-80s teams was Kim Mulkey.
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Women's tickets outpacing men's
https://www.espn.com/womens-college-basketball/story/_/id/39868602/women-ncaa-final-four-tickets-double-price-mens
https://www.espn.com/womens-college-basketball/story/_/id/39868602/women-ncaa-final-four-tickets-double-price-mens
I do wonder if that has anything to do with the women's Final Four capacity is 19,430 and the men's about 65,000?
Iowa made the tournament most years this century before Clark got there, including winning 29 games and making the elite 8 2 years before her. Davidson went almost 40 years before Curry without even being ranked.
Yeah the idea that Iowa is Clark and a bunch of riff-raff is utter nonsense. They have some really good players on that team. Clark is obviously the engine but that's a really good team that's well-coached.
2013-14: 27-9
2014-15: 26-8
2015-16: 19-14
2016-17: 20-14
2017-18: 24-8
2018-19: 29-7 - regional final
2019-20: 23-7
- - - - - (Clark arrives)
2020-21: 20-10
2021-22: 24-8
2022-23: 31-7
2023-24: 33-4
Clearly Clark is the biggest reason for the rise to 30+ wins, but obviously this program was highly successful long before Clark got there.
OK. A ranting mess filled with facts and BaseballJones stat filled post backed it up. You use the word jealousy and I call it recognition. I don't deny Clark any of the recognition. There's no jealousy - she's fantastic. My beef is more with the lack of mention by the media. They go from Clark to Reese to Hidalgo to Watkins. Just doesn't make sense to deny Paige the recognition. But you can be sure of one thing - she doesn't care. Her goals are always team goals. Which is why Geno wanted her in the first place.
PS: I welcome your specific points about what part of my post was a "ranting mess"?
Also, Bluder was the first women's coach to install Read & React and this was almost 20 years ago. She was on the cutting edge of Xs and Os and Clark was obviously the perfect fit for her offensive themes and emphases. She is a super coach.
Getting all hot and bothered about commentators for a HS game talking about other players and not Bueckers is clearly a jealousy driven comment.
Thinking that Iowa being better than UCONN this season makes it obvious Clark doesn't have inferior teammates to Bueckers and that is somehow a point in Bueckers' favor, as opposed to it showing how much Clark has gotten out of a team that wasn't surrounded by Top 10 recruits, is ridiculous.